"I... think this war is over."

[SteveMB]

Parson seems to be at least seriously considering the notion that the overall situation is, as he described the battle over the lake hex, "not winnable".

Stanley has left with the remaining dwagons, the Foolamancer, and (probably) the best three ground units. Wanda is not currently on speaking terms with the universe outside her head. Sizemore has given in to despair. Misty is croaked.

The fact that Parson did head for the war room suggests that he hasn't given up yet, but he doesn't have a lot to work with.

There's also the question of how the realization that his situation is "hardball... booping hard core" will affect his decisions. It could push him toward despair, or it could make him more determined to find some way to pull off a miracle if he's finally convinced on a gut level that his boop is on the line.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

He seemed to be into the battle when he took down the first 40% of the siege engines. I don't see how he can be "more committed," when he was fully committed in the first place. I never saw him as "holding back" once he realized that the things that were happening were for real, and not just a game designed induced dream.

I still stand by my arguments that the plot was forced.

[sihnfahl]

The fact that Parson did head for the war room suggests that he hasn't given up yet, but he doesn't have a lot to work with.

Well, he could have gone down to see what he had to work with. That's when he found out he lost Misty completely.

There's also the question of how the realization that his situation is "hardball... booping hard core" will affect his decisions. It could push him toward despair, or it could make him more determined to find some way to pull off a miracle if he's finally convinced on a gut level that his boop is on the line.

He's already looking for an out, but his resource list is dwindling before his eyes.

[Maratanos]

Yeah. Unless we've got a miracle coming up, I forsee a truce between what's left of Gobwin Knob and the Coalition.



Incidentally, anyone else thought about whether or not Jillian might have been the one Stanley usurped the place from?

[sihnfahl]

Incidentally, anyone else thought about whether or not Jillian might have been the one Stanley usurped the place from?

Go back to the discussion thread for #74. Yes, we speculated a LOT on that one.

[SteveMB]

Incidentally, anyone else thought about whether or not Jillian might have been the one Stanley usurped the place from?

Yes, particularly since her comment in the Thinkagram to Ansom that (at the very least) strongly implied that.

If Jillian is the "rightful heir" to GK, the matter of what to do with Stanley's remaining minions would presumably be her decision. (Even if Ansom has different ideas on the subject, his view of noble and royal prerogatives might preclude interference.)

[teratorn]

He seemed to be into the battle when he took down the first 40% of the siege engines. I don't see how he can be "more committed," when he was fully committed in the first place. I never saw him as "holding back" once he realized that the things that were happening were for real, and not just a game designed induced dream.

Well, he was still sort of doing it for the fun of it, more like a mental exercise. He started to feel the thing was real when Ansom asked for the hunt, and he was waiting to be attacked (and makes his famous comment about how ridiculous turn-based warfare is). But even after losing the dwagons he wasn't very worried about the setback and kept making plans.

With Misty's death he finally sees it's not just units on a paper. It's clear he liked Misty, he was surprised she didn't speak to him at the table. In a game you lose and that's all, you're not attached to your units.

If Jillian is the "rightful heir" to GK, the matter of what to do with Stanley's remaining minions would presumably be her decision. (Even if Ansom has different ideas on the subject, his view of noble and royal prerogatives might preclude interference.)

I don't see Jillian ruling over gobwins...

[Mant]

Parson seems to be at least seriously considering the notion that the overall situation is, as he described the battle over the lake hex, "not winnable".

No.
Not winnable was the battle over the lake, due to the high bonus given by both jillian and ansom being in it, and all the dragons being highly wounded.
He never thought of the overall battle as that.

The fact that Parson did head for the war room suggests that he hasn't given up yet, but he doesn't have a lot to work with.

No.
He headed to the war room because seeing that the foolamancer was out he understood that the link was broken, and so wanted to check on misty.

There's also the question of how the realization that his situation is "hardball... booping hard core" will affect his decisions. It could push him toward despair, or it could make him more determined to find some way to pull off a miracle if he's finally convinced on a gut level that his boop is on the line.

More mental masturbation?

[FoolishOwl]

Parson seems to be at least seriously considering the notion that the overall situation is, as he described the battle over the lake hex, "not winnable".

Early on, he'd asked, "Am I trapped in my own no-win scenario?" He's now finally convinced that it *is* a no-win scenario.

With Misty's death he finally sees it's not just units on a paper. It's clear he liked Misty, he was surprised she didn't speak to him at the table. In a game you lose and that's all, you're not attached to your units.

I have one caveat -- his initial reaction was to ask if casters can be uncroaked, and so far as we know, the uncroaked are mindless, so that sounds more like a grossly pragmatic question. However, that was his initial reaction, and his attitude shifts immediately. Parson seems to have had little success forming empathetic bonds with people in our world, so expressing feelings for another person doesn't come that easily for him.

I think this is the decisive moment for Parson.

Whether Erfworld is "real" or not, the beings in it act as real people, not just pieces on a playing board, and this is beginning to move Parson. He's finally broken from the idea that he should win the battle for Stanley, and I believe he's about to make a dramatic decision, which will define his course through the rest of the story.

[Korota]

I have one caveat -- his initial reaction was to ask if casters can be uncroaked, and so far as we know, the uncroaked are mindless, so that sounds more like a grossly pragmatic question.

Well, with 'croak' being the replacement for both 'death' and 'kill' in this world, that could get fuzzy. Uncroaked could mean undead, or it could mean 'un-kill', as in, bring back to life or something. Though we haven't learned whether ressurection of units is possible in this world.

[Mant]

Uncroaked could mean undead, or it could mean 'un-kill', as in, bring back to life or something.

Lol. You think he's on a verge of creating zombies out of friends?

[SteveMB]

Lol. You think he's on a verge of creating zombies out of friends?

I think he means is that, since "croaked" is the word for "killed"/"dead" in Language, the word "uncroaked" is potentially ambiguous (meaning either animated as an "uncroaked" zombie creature or really brought back to normal life).

I think it's a bit of a stretch, myself.

[the_tick_rules]

ya know stanley leavin with the dragons does suck. but without him isn't parson now the boss? he could finally work without stanley's idiocy in the way.

[Aquillion]

He seemed to be into the battle when he took down the first 40% of the siege engines. I don't see how he can be "more committed," when he was fully committed in the first place. I never saw him as "holding back" once he realized that the things that were happening were for real, and not just a game designed induced dream.

I still stand by my arguments that the plot was forced.

Again, you're missing the most important development (which I think the post directly above this one hit dead-on.)

Two very important things have happened since then:

Parson is, in theory, in charge now. Not just a warlord; he's probably the highest-ranking person left in Gobwin Knob.

Second, he has been forced to see how harsh things really are. He's no longer viewing it as a game.

From your posts, I gather what you wanted to see was Parson playing a wargame against Ansom and winning. I think it's plain, at this point, that that isn't what the plot is about. Parson might beat Ansom eventually, but that was never the main focus of the plot.

This plot is about Parson becoming a leader. Not a military strategist, not a winner, but a leader, someone who understands the world, someone capable of commanding loyalty, and who understands the sacrifice that his people are making for him. Beating Ansom wouldn't make Parson a leader (as we saw, Tool would just take the credit.) At most, it would earn him some limited admiration from Wanda and Sizemore.

That was never what the strip was about. It's about Parson managing to lead those people. For that to happen, for him to really command their loyalty, he needed a chance to show that he is someone capable of managing people, not just units. That's what this scenerio has been building up to--have his failure, and the close, personal death resulting from it, shocked him out of the bloated gaming torpor that has governed his life until now? Can he convince Sizemore and Wanda to have faith in him? Can he scrape victory together in a situation where everyone else has given up hope--not just the fakey Tomb of Horrors D&D-module "abandon-hope-ye-who-enter" dispair Parson was waving aside before, but the serious, we-are-about-to-die dispair of people in the trenches?

These are the real questions. Ansom? Ansom's small potatoes. He isn't even attuned to his Arkentool. If it was just a story about Parson beating Ansom, it'd be nothing but another monster-of-the-week story.

The real story here, I think, is supposed to be about Parson's journey from the (basically) pathetic person we saw in the beginning, to someone who can reach out to others and take control of his own life. The defeat--which Parson will blame himself for, whether it's really his fault or not--was a necessary part of that. If Parson had won, he just would've gone ahead playing Erfworld like a game, escaping from reality into Stanley's table just as surely as he escaped from it into the board in his own world.

Sure, sure, it said he was doomed before. It always says you're doomed on the side of the box. The point of most of the pages until now have been to drive home the point that this isn't like that, that this is real--you're not guarenteed that there's a way to win, and even if Parson finds the magic breadcrumb trail through the dungeon and feeds all the three mystical animals and does everything right, he might lose anyway. That's an essential thing to establish.

Just travelling to another world didn't make Parson any better. He has to do that on his own.

[Drakron]

Parson is chief warlord, Stanley is still the leader.

The difference is Stanley is now unable to issues orders outside his little group, Parson can do whatever he wants.

The problem is communication, the little setup that given Goblwin Knob not only battlefield awareness but communication is now down, now Parson "have to use hats" just as Anson does.

Stanley is not out of the picture, I doubt he is just running away and even if he is there is the slight issue of Parson NOT being the leader of of the group, Stanley is ... even if Parson wins nothing changes until Stanley croaks since its how it works.

The problem Parson have is this ... he have no communication, no intelligence, is outnumbered 25-1 and no dwagons, the only good news is the enemy lost 40% of their siege weapons.

[Occasional Sage]

Here's a crazy potential twist:

If Stanley is indeed going after the second Arkentool that's nearly in his reach, that takes out a substantial amount of the upper leadership of the coalition. Granted we don't know what percentage of any faction's leadership is in the one hex but... but a great leader, as was just pointed out by Aquillion*, needs to be able to manage people as well as tactics. Could a decapitated faction switch allegiances and leave Parson truly in command, and with enough troops to make that meaningful?

I'm not really buying the idea, but it might lead to interesting thoughts elsewhere.


*in a post of which I'm jealous, which put words to what I've seen but been unable to communicate coherently.

[Dragonath]

Does Stanley and his group have enough move to obtain the Pliers and then go for some more attacks on the siege.

If Ansom does go down, along with Jillian, and if the Archons run away (since I don't see Charlie seeing the sense of risking his 3 prized women in a not-winnable fight), then Stanley can take the pliers and go for the siege with an even bigger artifact bonus. Plus, if he promoted the 3 KISS to Warlords, he can strike the siege even better.

But I don't know if he has the move for it. And how many more turns till the column reaches Gobwin Knob ? He can hit the column a few times still.

And with Ansom dead, they have to totally reorganize their leadership and have to take a look at who will lead them from that point. Ansom was making all the plans for this siege and directing all orders.

If he dies, a lot of trouble will come upon the coalition....

Still hoping for Stanley to charge Ansom with his armored Dwagon and finishing Ansom with his hammer. Stanley's Dwagon looks awesome, need to see it in action, MUST see it in action.

[factotum]

Does Stanley and his group have enough move to obtain the Pliers and then go for some more attacks on the siege.

Why would Stanley even care enough to risk himself to do so? His whole objective is to get the Arkentools, he couldn't give a flying damn about Gobwin Knob, Parson, Wanda, or Sizemore. If he successfully gets the Arkenpliers he'll be off into the wide blue yonder.

[Targan]

If he successfully gets the Arkenpliers he'll be off into the wide blue yonder.

Hmm, I don't know about Stanley heading off into the WBY if got the Arkenpliers. I agree the Arkenpliers are what he is fixated on, but Stanley is a monomaniacal meglomaniac. I don't think that upon having both the Arkenhammer and the Arkenpliers Stanley would go sit in a cave and polish them both. I think he would immediately set about getting himself at the head of a huge military force again. Might even head straight back to GK . Once he has two of the Arkentools he will be more convinced than ever that the Titans mean for him to have them all, and will set about conquering whomever else he thinks has any more of the Arkentools.

[fendrin]

We still don't know whether a unit can exist without an association with a particular city. We know Stanley can't take the treasury with him, so how will his upkeep get paid?

No, he has a vested interest in keeping GK. He might flee if there is absolutely no chance of victory, but even then I think he is more likely to stay hidden nearby until the city actually falls, just in case Parson pulls it off.

[FoolishOwl]

Aquillion's thinking along the right lines, I think. This is a graphic novel, and the classic form of a novel is an account of a protagonist learning about the world and making a place within it, as a process of transformation and maturing.

Parson's smart, but an overgrown adolescent. There are many indications of this, most especially his speech on his lack of concern for anything in his life but his games, given, rather dramatically, immediately before he's summoned to Erfworld. That didn't strike me as Parson expressing a profound truth about himself; it struck me as Parson revealing how little insight he has into his own needs, desires, and motivations. Similarly, his saying that he prefers playing the "bad guys" shows a perverse refusal to think about ethics.

There's an important difference between having a role in an organization with formal authority, and being a good leader. The leadership bonuses are an abstract representation of a human characteristic -- an ability to empathize with other people, to know their needs and desires and harmonize them in the pursuit of a common goal. The prerequisite of that is caring about what other people think and feel.

So, I think that we'll see Parson becoming a more complete human being, and the obvious means towards that end is Parson struggling to become a good leader.

[Occasional Sage]

We still don't know whether a unit can exist without an association with a particular city. We know Stanley can't take the treasury with him, so how will his upkeep get paid?

Most TBS have a provision for "mercenary" or "unaligned" units, either as antagonists, or potential hirlings, or sometimes both.

Assuming that Stanley CAN leave and divorce himself from the city, a more important question would be, "Can he remain an Overlord without a capitol, and will the Knights remain loyal?" It remains valid too after GK passes in some manner into another ruler's hands; what would Stanley's status be if he survives a second coup, or the anhilation of his faction? Different games treat these situations differently, and I'm curious what approach Rob and Jamie will take.

[Dragonath]

Why would Stanley even care enough to risk himself to do so? His whole objective is to get the Arkentools, he couldn't give a flying damn about Gobwin Knob, Parson, Wanda, or Sizemore. If he successfully gets the Arkenpliers he'll be off into the wide blue yonder.

Maybe he's not just going for the Arkenpliers and he said "Good luck, and good bye" because he thought he was going on a suicide mission.

Maybe he's thinking: "If you wan't something done right, you gotta do it yourself."

I don't think so either, but I have my hopes up for Stanley wreaking havoc as much as he can. As I would love to see that happen.

Or Wanda going furious, I am so hoping for that. I think we haven't shown much of Wanda yet, I think her role is far from over.

[daggaz]

I think he means is that, since "croaked" is the word for "killed"/"dead" in Language, the word "uncroaked" is potentially ambiguous (meaning either animated as an "uncroaked" zombie creature or really brought back to normal life).

I think it's a bit of a stretch, myself.

No, I dont think it is that ambiguous, either. He asks if a dead person can be uncroaked. You don't "undead" a corpse, you animate it. So in this situation, I think the croaked portion stands for 'kill.' You can 'unkill' a person, tho we would use the word ressurrect. The whole point is that kill is a verb, and dead is an adjective, and the uncroaking is used as a verb.

[FoolishOwl]

No, I dont think it is that ambiguous, either. He asks if a dead person can be uncroaked. You don't "undead" a corpse, you animate it. So in this situation, I think the croaked portion stands for 'kill.' You can 'unkill' a person, tho we would use the word ressurrect. The whole point is that kill is a verb, and dead is an adjective, and the uncroaking is used as a verb.

In the second page of Erfworld, Stanley orders Wanda to uncroak Lord Manpower the Temporary. In the third page, Wanda orders Manpower to piece together a regiment of uncroaked infantry. So, the usage of the verb uncroak to mean "animate a corpse," and the adjective uncroaked to mean "animated corpse," is well established. I don't think there've been any other situations in which uncroak could have meant "bring back to life," so we don't know if there's a term for that, or if it's possible in Erfworld.

[Aquillion]

Parson is chief warlord, Stanley is still the leader.

The difference is Stanley is now unable to issues orders outside his little group, Parson can do whatever he wants.

Sure, like you said, on paper. But more importantly... if Parson had won before, it would have been a win for Stanley. Yeah, yeah, it might have been Stanley winning because he had a real sweet warlord, but most people wouldn't see that as any different from him winning because he has a real sweet dragon or whatever. It wouldn't have meant anything, overall; it would have just been another step in Stanley's story. Stanley would've said "I beat him!", and everyone would have smiled and nodded. A few might have gritted their teeth, but that's what would've happened... that's what did happen, when they were winning. It wouldn't be a very fun story in the long run.

If Parson wins now, though, after Stanley abandoned everyone (look at the expressions on the faces of his remaining knights!), it will be a win for Parson. Everyone in Gobwin Knob would have seen Stanley abandoning his people to save his own skin, and Parson, left with even less than Stanley had, managing to pull their boop out of the fire.

I think that the scene where we saw how little faith Sizemore has in Parson was foreshadowing this... in order for Parson to go anywhere in the story, he has to become someone who people like Sizemore can believe in. He couldn't do that while directly under Stanley's shadow.

[Wender]

I think Team Stanley still has a ghost of a chance.

If Stanley croaks Ansom and takes the 'pliers, and; if a significant number of dwagons remain from the attempt, and; if Ansom really is the glue that holds the coalition together, and; if the marbits attack anyway but run into trouble in the tunnels and decide they're not going to be fodder... then the Alliance might implode, and the Archons' contract might be terminated. What remains? Basically, Jillian, Webinar and Webinar's girlfriend and whatever forces stick around. And Webinar will be right in her face about betraying Ansom.

This would not be like winning a game with a Hail Mary. It would be like winning a season with Hail Marys. But it could happen. The fragility of the Alliance, and the importance of Ansom as its head have been given to us as significant variables. The siege for Gobwin Knob might play out like the end of Terminator, with each party increasingly handicapped until the final blow lands. And even then I'm not 100% convinced that Team Stanley will win.

If the Alliance holds, fuggetaboudit. It's ovah.

[NakedCelt]

Once he has two of the Arkentools he will be more convinced than ever that the Titans mean for him to have them all, and will set about conquering whomever else he thinks has any more of the Arkentools.

Some time, Parson is inadvertently going to let slip that there's a place on Earth called "Arkansas".

[fendrin]

I think Team Stanley still has a ghost of a chance.

If Stanley croaks Ansom and takes the 'pliers, and; if a significant number of dwagons remain from the attempt, and; if Ansom really is the glue that holds the coalition together, and; if the marbits attack anyway but run into trouble in the tunnels and decide they're not going to be fodder... then the Alliance might implode, and the Archons' contract might be terminated. What remains? Basically, Jillian, Webinar and Webinar's girlfriend and whatever forces stick around. And Webinar will be right in her face about betraying Ansom.

I think you are a little extreme in how much Team GK needs to win. Taking out the leadership corps above the lake might be enough to shatter the alliance; whether or not the dwagons survive or the marbits wise up is irrelevant.

Even if the Grand Toolbah fails utterly and all the dwagons die, if Parson can take out he siege I think GK would win. I think Sizemore will be instrumental in this, either in

Basically, Ansom's plan relies on a breach in the walls. Take that away and he either has to

1) shuttle a few troops over the wall on flying units each turn, or
2) enter through the tunnels.

1 would be disastrous, as the GK forces would be able to swarm the few units airlifted in with ease. Repeat Ad nauseum.

2 would be almost as bad; remember they have no clue about the second gobwin infantry or their huge bonuses to fight in tunnels. They don't know about the crap golems. They don't have a map of the tunnels (and Jillian will run into some problems here when she can't reverse her route). They don't know about the 'tricks' that Sizemore put in place. The tunnels are going to be meat grinder.

Basically, take out the siege and the 25:1 numbers mean nothing anymore. A good defensive position like GK levels the odds considerably. Ansom's "four times" the army he needs is all predicated on breaching the walls. Take that away from him and he's up boop creek without a paddle.

In traditional medieval warfare a siege was typically used to starve out your opponent by cutting off their supplies. That doesn't work in Erfworld (as suppiles come from the city, not from the surrounding countryside).

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Also, a large number of troops are uncroaked. The dead don't need feeding, and the skellys, etc, are not zombies, so they don't need brains.

Another thing I was thinking both for Parson's defence plans, and whether or not anyone would want Gobwin Knob is Stanley takes a runner or gets splattered in a duel between himself and Ansom: Where do dwagons pop? If Gobwin Knob is the only place, that would make GK highly valuable for the rest of Erfworld, if the controlling kingdom gets automatic control over the dwagons.

OTOH, if you have to have the Arkenhammer to control the dwagons, a bunch of uncontrolled dwagons (they pop full grown) appearing in the middle of Parson's defence perimiter might add even more problems to an already bad day.

GK can become Neutral, but it won't stay neutral very long. SOMEONE always wants the resources a city can provide in a game like that.