Results 31 to 58 of 58
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2020-06-07, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- right behind you
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Well yeah but
SpoilerHe also arranged to be assassinated to avoid having to hold up his end of the bargain, going so far as to erase his memories so mab would have no way to learn of it before it was too late. Yeah his plan didnt work (at least partially because he didnt remember it and so fought to come back) but still, he had no intention of going along with it."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-06-07, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
- Location
- Everywhere you want to be
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
SpoilerYeah, and he came out of his coma with Mab hovering over him like a starved praying mantis over her prey. But he still has to keep his bargain. And after what he was shown by Grandmothers Winter and Summer, he's doing it of his own free will.
tl;dr : go read *The Dresden Files*, at least up to book four, to see if you like what Jim Butcher made when he had more writing experience under his belt and wasn't pastiching noir quite so much. Then read the rest of the series. Oh my god, they just keep getting better...Alignments are objective. Right and wrong are not.
Good: Will act to prevent harm to others even at personal cost.
Evil: Will seek personal benefit even if it causes harm to others.
Law: General, universal, and consistent trump specific, local, and inconsistent.
Chaos: Specific, local, and inconsistent trump general, universal, and consistent.
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2020-06-07, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Gender
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2020-06-08, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Yes, it's a few pixels over to the left of this message.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html
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2020-06-08, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
The Three Musketeers, in a way.
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2020-06-08, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Ooh, I just remembered another Dresden Files example
Spoiler: book 2: Fool MoonWhen dresden is captured by the Lobo gang, Marcone swings by to make one last offer he knows the hero will refuse. And our hero accepts, specifically to piss off the gang that was really looking forward to killing him, and in the resulting fracus, he escapes in the confusion.
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2020-06-08, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2017
- Location
- France
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
At the end of the last Prince of Persia video game, your girlfriend sacrifices herself to seal the god of evil back in his prison. Said god then offers to resurrect her in exchange for his freedom. You have to agree. What's more this is the exact smae deal that he passed with her father before the beginning of the game and that caused the events of the game.
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-06-08, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Having never seen either show, I find it really weird that executives apparently thought, "so we have a show about high schoolers fighting demons. So, spin-off, they run a law firm. Good? Good."
I dunno, maybe it makes more sense in the lore.
Bets on the Cobras, doesn't he? Would have been nice if they'd laid out the odds throughout the movie to foreshadow it somehow, or address how it's a sport where competitors can legally bet on themselves.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2020-06-08, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
It was sort of a mess, because they had to change the ending of the season to turn it into a series finale instead. So there were a bunch of threads they were busy gathering which all got shoved into a blender at the last minute.
So originally, it played out as a straightforward thing - Wolfram & Hart believed that Angel and co would not be able to run the place without succumbing to evil, whereas Angel and co believed that they could use the resources of the place to make a difference. It was more of a bet than a temptation.
But then they wanted a quick ending, so Whedon invented a super-double-secret ruling party that could be used for a grand strike against the Senior Partners, which in turn meant that Wolfram & Hart got reduced to being just another tool rather than a primary one, turning it into a diversion keeping Angel busy instead of the temptation-bet it was originally portrayed as.If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2020-06-08, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- right behind you
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Considering the main character, Angel, is a 200 year old vampire with a soul, its not that big of a stretch. Cordelia graduated from high school like a year ago before the start of the spinoff if I remember and was working as the secretary more or less. The only other main character to follow was the very much so adult former Watcher Wesley.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-06-08, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Birmingham, AL
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2020-06-08, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Spoiler: Dodgeball spoilersNo, he takes the money that he got from selling Average Joe's Gym and bets on his own team, which is a massive underdog. When they win he gets back a ton of money thanks to the odds against his team, and that makes him rich enough to buy a controlling interest in the bad guy's company so that he effectively owns his gym again. No ethical questions about the bet itself (just, you know, selling his gym in the first place) since he's betting on himself.
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2020-06-08, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
As much as I love your version of the canon, I'll defend this for a moment!
So, early Buffy is about high schoolers fighting demons. Then later Buffy is about leaving the things you know behind and stepping into a bigger, scarier world (represented by college, but also by newer and more complicated villains.) At about the same time that Buffy is going off to college, Angel is moving into the world, too, setting up a magic detective agency and struggling with all the garbage he went through in early Buffy.
So then you have these two shows for people who latched onto them in high school and have followed them into the adult world. Buffy escalates things, and ends on a message of "you're not alone - bring other people into your fight, and don't let people tell you it's impossible."
Angel takes the opposite route. Angel says, "When you are a young revolutionary, the System will try to absorb you. Society will give you all the reasons to give up and stop fighting evil, and it's complicated and insidious." Going from being a bunch of iconoclaust monster hunters who do detective work for the poor to being part of a big law firm that corrupts everything it touches is the extraordinarily on-the-nose metaphor for the temptations and compromises that we make as we enter adult life.
The message at the end of Angel is "you can't change the system from within, so blow it up and go down fighting", which may stem more from getting cancelled than anything else (especially since they apparently got cancelled because Whedon tried a power-play that failed spectacularly.) But it's a consistent message.If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2020-06-08, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
- Location
- England. Ish.
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
If we are starting to mention video games, the more recent Bards Tale game gave you the option of (a) romance with the evil demon princess trying to conquer the world, (b) allying with the druid who has been trying to have you killed all through the game because you are (unwittingly - until this point you don't know about the demon bit) supporting the princess, or (c) telling them both to get stuffed and going off to the pub for a drink. I think at least one of those sort of matches.
(Hint: It's not the one about the pub)Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
"The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud
"Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee
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2020-06-08, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
A Practical Guide to Evil is built on this trope; the main character basically had the potential to become a great hero or a great villain.
One of the greatest villains in the country came by with a recruitment pitch first and, well, the series isn't called A Practical Guide to Good, now is it?
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2020-06-08, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- right behind you
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-06-08, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Location
- Ireland
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Negima actually has the hero figure out the villain's evil plan, realise he's working towards a noble goal, and approach him with an offer to work together. The hero came up with a better plan which is slower and more ambitious but can potentially achieve the same thing with far lower collateral damage. If it fails, the hero promises to assist the evil plan himself (and is completely unconflicted about this).
This was a pastiche of Dragon Quest's "Join me, Hero, and I shall grant you half the world!".
IIRC in the backstory of Dragon Quest Builders, the Hero actually accepted this offer... and ended up with a house named "Half the World".
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2020-06-08, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Negima in general is kind of a trip when it comes to the titular protagonist. It's rare you see a series where the unambiguous good guy hero just as unambiguously embraces dark magic as a quick and easy path to power without it being foisted off on him; he goes to it of his own free will to basically no consequences as far as I know.
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2020-06-08, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Location
- Ireland
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Last edited by Prime32; 2020-06-08 at 08:00 PM.
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2020-06-08, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
A Practical Guide to Evil got briefly mentioned upthread, but really this is the whole premise of the story. The main character has already decided that a standard heroic rebellion against the occupying Evil forces is a) unlikely to succeed based on precedent and b) way too expensive in terms of collateral damage. So when the Black Knight offers her a position as his Squire, she agrees, since the best way (as she sees it) to help her kingdom is to get enough power in the evil empire to enact policy changes from within.
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2020-06-09, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Lemuria
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
The Transall Saga has certain levels of this.
Spoiler: Spoilers
When the MC is captured by slavers, and ends up joining them after being freed for saving his master's life.
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2020-06-14, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
I was going to post that, the 3rd part too has lots of examples (again in a way)
__
Foundation I suppose counts as one where the offer is accepted at the start.
Narnia in some form in most of the books (The Hideous Strength also)
It's obviously going to be hard for them to accept the offer and still be heroic, maybe Flashman? (Sharpe comes close already, oh or Vanity Fair*)
I feel like there must be a really good face-heel example (like the RotSith one, but without ANH), 1984 can definitely go on the list but I'm sure there's one that celebrates it more.
*Yes, I did get to the subtitle.
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2020-06-14, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
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2020-06-24, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
The Last Argument of Kings by Joe Abercrombie, and by extension, The Blade Itself trilogy, as it's the finale.
Spoiler: The Blade Itself trilogyBasically it turns out that Bayaz, the Gandalf figure, is at least as bad as his opposite number, if not worse. The main characters go through complex journeys, and each in their own way, accepts Bayaz's help and ends upo largely where they started. Jezal, the brash young hero becomes a puppet king, quite explicitly ruled by fear of Bayaz. He tries to reject Bayaz's manipulations and is utterly crushed, metaphorically, by Bayaz.
Ferro, starts the story seeking revenge on Khalul (the Dark Priest-Lord) and on the journey learns how pointless and empty the war is, and how petty, spiteful and cruel Bayaz is. She actually learns the truth - the it was Bayaz, not Khalul, who started the wars, and murdered their master - but when she confronts Bayaz with the truth, he offers her his ultimate weapon as a means for her revenge, and, she accepts.
Inquisitor Glokta works to uncover the conspiracy at work, and finds that Bayaz is behind everything. In response Bayaz effectively says "you can either rule this state for me or I can annihilate you." Glokta accepts, though his capitulation is not quite as snivelling as Jezal's.
Basically, it sort of turns out that the White Wizard might actually be just another Dark Lord, and everyone pretty much accepts that this is above their pay grade, and they can't do anything about it.
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2020-06-24, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Lemuria
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Also, now that I think about it. The Wardstone Chronicles kind of has that as a feature.
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2020-06-24, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Do we count Villain Protagonist series in this? There's a few moments in the Dire Saga where the titular Doctor Dire persuades some do-gooder hero to either stand aside and let her work, or actively aid her in accomplishing something.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2020-06-24, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
- Location
- Austrian Empire
- Gender
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Ditto to what The Glyphstone said.
It feels silly to mention because it is ultimately a childrens book, but the Artemis Fowl book series is essentially just a long, drawn out scenario where the protagonist of the series, Artemis Fowl (in large part the acting villain, or at least character of villainous intent) forces elves (in general the heroes) to do things for him and cooperate with him, through persuasion and coercion.
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2020-06-24, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?
Oh, one I'd forgotten about for a bit: the Coldfire trilogy, by C.S. Friedman. Good series, and is primarily centered around the..."mutual corruption" I guess you could call it of the two principal characters.