Didn't Need An Army

[brian 333]

I fear I may have accidentally hijacked another thread when an offhand comment, (the title of this thread,) invited some back-and-forth. I would like to take that discussion to this thread and leave the original to its original purpose.

My point was that some posters presented as major strength of Soon's Gate the idea that an army was required to capture it. The gamer in me immediately rejected that position.

So, let me present an outline of one possible way Team Evil could have gained unfettered access to the throne for two months without an army.

Spoiler: I : Scout the city to figure out how to get in.

Show

A : Physical scouting and mapping, either invisibly or disguised.
B : Question locals about the power structures in the city.
B1 : Voluntary questioning of unsuspecting citizens
B2 : Involuntary questioning of kidnapped citizens, especially uniformed ones.
C : Identify methods of entering and exiting the city unnoticed.

Spoiler: II : Make contact with disgruntled nobles.

Show

A : A minor officer of one or two disgruntled nobles is given an offer to present to their lord, reminding them that they personally will gain prestige by introducing TE to their lord.
B : Use that noble to gain access to Kubota, (presumably having learned he is the most powerful of the would-be usurpers.)
C : Team up, (presumably through Quarr,) with Kubota.

Spoiler: III : Plots, schemes, and murders.

Show

A : Kubota directs TE toward his biggest rivals and obstacles while publicly claiming fear of the murderer able to do such deeds.
B : Stymie Shojo's attempts to find out who is behind the killings, magically through non-detection magic and physically by killing anyone who might succeed.
C : Blame Shojo's insanity for the ineffectual defense of the nobility.

Spoiler: IV : Take down the Sapphire Guard

Show

A : Set up an ally of Shojo as the one behind the murders.
A1 : Publicize the SG taking down this ally.
A2 : Have a ninja in SG livery be seen killing the ally before trial. ("You'll never reveal our complicity, traitor!")
B : Start rumors that these troubles could be stopped by the SG if they wanted to, so they must be behind it.
C : Among the surviving nobility, blame Shojo for the city's (noble's) troubles, and insinuate that he has become a mental case under the control of the SG, whose real goal is to replace the nobility as rulers of the city. Where Shojo weakened the nobility, Kubota would support a lord who strengthened them.

Spoiler: V : Take Over!

Show

A: Kubota convenes the nobility to oust Shojo and vote in a new Lord of Azure City.
B : With a great show of reluctance Kubota assumes lordship of the city.
B1 : Shojo is ordered into protective custody to be healed of his mental issues.
B2 : Kubota disbands the Sapphire Guard and exiles it's members, citing any reluctance on their part as proof of their treachery.
B3 : Many paladins won't go quietly, so RC, Xykon, and MitD clear them out.
C : Discover Soon's Trap in the Throne Room, if not when cleaning out the SG, then when Kubota attempts to assume the throne.

Spoiler: VI : Eight Weeks

Show

A : Announce proof of the SG collusion with undead and let all know that the cleansing will require eight weeks.
B : TE researches how to get through Soon and the Martyrs, probably after multiple retreats.
C : The rituals begin.
D : The Order of the Stick shows up and knocks down the tower in an epic battle to get to Xykon.

Now I know this is not what The Giant intended, but it could work in an RPG. So, the point that one strength of Soon's Gate was that it required an army to capture it is invalid. Even the armies of the nobles were not needed. Bards would be useful to influence the peasantry, but the peasantry would not interfere in the struggles of the nobles in any case.

So, feel free to show why this idea would not work and only an army would. Personal insults will be taken as a sign that the poster concedes defeat!

[Errorname]

There's a lot of possible failure points for a plan like this, it requires allying with a treacherous fool and would be highly susceptible to getting completely derailed by basic spells and precautions. We don't see anything that would dispell a disguise, but we know there are wards that block scrying in the throne room and I'd be shocked if they were the only ones taken. That said, while nitpicking the proposed plans are a lot of fun, it's kind of a distraction. I've never disputed that politicking was a viable way to take over Soon's gate. I do however dispute that it constitutes taking the gate without an Army.

Because when I say Soon's Gate requires an army to take, I don't really mean "you must conquer the city by force" although that's the easiest approach. What I mean is that Soon's Gate being set into the literal throne of the City means you cannot take one without the other, control of the gate requires political control over Azure City. That means control over an army in order to maintain your political position, either the army you used to conquer the city or the existing Azurite military.

[brian 333]

That's moving the goalpost.

Team Evil would not be in command of the army, nor would the army be used in any phase of the operation. The city would be under civilian control for the entire operation.

No army is used either to take or to maintain control of the gate.

[Provengreil]

I pulled a night watch and don't have a lot else to do for about 10 hours, but working with this could be fun.

Before I start, the assumption I'm making here is that we're starting from the point of no one except Redcloak, Xykon, and MitD being around on Team Evil's side, and the rest of OOTSverse in the state it was when when Team Evil initially re-recovered Serini's DIary, but without the army in tow.

Spoiler: I : Scout the city to figure out how to get in.

Show

A : Physical scouting and mapping, either invisibly or disguised.
B : Question locals about the power structures in the city.
B1 : Voluntary questioning of unsuspecting citizens
B2 : Involuntary questioning of kidnapped citizens, especially uniformed ones.
C : Identify methods of entering and exiting the city unnoticed.

Information gathering is by far the easiest and most uncontroversial part of your plan. There are only 2 real rocks I see.

First, manual surveillance without being detected is going to take months, even if it's just the palace and related areas, yet none of TE have any meaningful talent for stealth or information gathering. While it's unlikely that they'd blow the lid off their entire op during this phase unless things go catastrophically wrong, attentive security forces could easily be put on heightened alert by a series of small slips and unexplained disappearances or murders.

Second, you're talking about having Xykon crawling around an area full of paladins. Paladins with detect evil at will. OOTSverse makes this a unique problem for him. One errant cast of the spell could see his trail and lead to a wider alert.

Spoiler: II : Make contact with disgruntled nobles.

Show

A : A minor officer of one or two disgruntled nobles is given an offer to present to their lord, reminding them that they personally will gain prestige by introducing TE to their lord.
B : Use that noble to gain access to Kubota, (presumably having learned he is the most powerful of the would-be usurpers.)
C : Team up, (presumably through Quarr,) with Kubota.

Again, not to complain about here. Kubota is even already making active deals with devils, so a lich and a goblin don't present much of a stretch. There is a question of trust, as Kubota might trust a devil(for whom lawfulness is inherent to his existence) but not mortals. Still, that'd result in plans for a betrayal, not denial of meeting.

Spoiler: III : Plots, schemes, and murders.

Show

A : Kubota directs TE toward his biggest rivals and obstacles while publicly claiming fear of the murderer able to do such deeds.
B : Stymie Shojo's attempts to find out who is behind the killings, magically through non-detection magic and physically by killing anyone who might succeed.
C : Blame Shojo's insanity for the ineffectual defense of the nobility.

This is where you start to lose me. Shojo wouldn't be directing the investigations, he'd order them. The Sapphire Guard wold actually carry them out, or perhaps a lower agency at least at first. But how many rivals could TE realistically remove before something breaks down in the plan? What happens when they bring some diamonds to the scene to resurrect anyone who saw something? How soon before the nobles up their personal defense, another still dies, and they realize it's not the dottiness of a largely unrelated leader?

Plus, Kubota's rivals are presumably not stupid and could piece together a strong motive for him. That's not enough for the sapphire guard to act but it is enough for the ninjas of the other to have a look. How many ninja teams can Kubota's ninjas fight off?

I guess Xykon has the power to do it in a night or two, but then the slow political burn you're trying to get that turns people against the Sapphire Guard doesn't happen.

Spoiler: IV : Take down the Sapphire Guard

Show

A : Set up an ally of Shojo as the one behind the murders.
A1 : Publicize the SG taking down this ally.
A2 : Have a ninja in SG livery be seen killing the ally before trial. ("You'll never reveal our complicity, traitor!")
B : Start rumors that these troubles could be stopped by the SG if they wanted to, so they must be behind it.
C : Among the surviving nobility, blame Shojo for the city's (noble's) troubles, and insinuate that he has become a mental case under the control of the SG, whose real goal is to replace the nobility as rulers of the city. Where Shojo weakened the nobility, Kubota would support a lord who strengthened them.

The implausibilities here continue to deepen. Not only does every potential snag up to this point have to be avoided, but A2 is where I have to draw the hard no. If a paladin has somehow gotten this far and retained their powers, this'd make them fall for sure, and there's a lot more that'd be going down with the if such a widespread plan were in place. It'd be easy to check, too, just have them line up and detect evil: those who can't are either no longer paladins, or never were. Once all of them still can do it, you know you have a rat. Furthermore, the nobles know damn well what paladins are, and that such subversive schemes would be completely foreign to their methods of operating.

You're also assuming Shojo has in no way spotted any of this and begun to work against Kubota. Everything we saw of the old man suggests quite the opposite, that he'd be one of the very first to do so.

Spoiler: V : Take Over!

Show

A: Kubota convenes the nobility to oust Shojo and vote in a new Lord of Azure City.
B : With a great show of reluctance Kubota assumes lordship of the city.
B1 : Shojo is ordered into protective custody to be healed of his mental issues.
B2 : Kubota disbands the Sapphire Guard and exiles it's members, citing any reluctance on their part as proof of their treachery.
B3 : Many paladins won't go quietly, so RC, Xykon, and MitD clear them out.
C : Discover Soon's Trap in the Throne Room, if not when cleaning out the SG, then when Kubota attempts to assume the throne.

Basically the only part of this that goes as planned is A. Maybe. The surviving nobles would know a coup in motion when they see one, and something tells me that they won't simply go along with it. Particularly, I would expect Shojo himself to have an answer or two put together by now, up to and including outright discarding his semblance of insanity and bringing up any proof he's managed to scrounge up.

The disbandment and extermination of the SG would also probably send one or more of them running to the throne to destroy it. Especially now that Team Evil is operating openly enough to be noticed, they'd fulfill their oaths against what they see as traitors, official orders or not. Soon himself could easily reassure anyone who made it that this was the right call.

So even if the coup succeeds at this point, the seizure of the gate could easily fail.

Spoiler: VI : Eight Weeks

Show

A : Announce proof of the SG collusion with undead and let all know that the cleansing will require eight weeks.
B : TE researches how to get through Soon and the Martyrs, probably after multiple retreats.
C : The rituals begin.
D : The Order of the Stick shows up and knocks down the tower in an epic battle to get to Xykon.

Quite frankly, I just don't see anyone believing the SG were working with undead. Paladins, their oaths, and the effects of those oaths are common knowledge already, and there's no way to make sure Team Evil got every single ne of them. They'll do what we know from direct evidence they'd do: form a resistance and fight.

And this time, TE doesn't have the troops to keep the resistance down. Kubota's factions crumble under the numbers the Paladins raise from the armed forces and normal citizenry alike, and Team Evil have to hold the Throne room for a month or longer while under siege from basically everyone left in the city, while performing the ritual.

Basically, you're looking at the situation as though TE are not only the more proactive side, but the only actors at all. They'd never get past initial contact with Kubota before actions start being taken against them, and any slip ups at all mean likely failure.

[Provengreil]

That's moving the goalpost.

Team Evil would not be in command of the army, nor would the army be used in any phase of the operation. The city would be under civilian control for the entire operation.

No army is used either to take or to maintain control of the gate.

He's not saying the army is marching into the throne room, he's saying you need enough control to make sure they don't. I for one think you're underestimating just how hard this would be in a city where the only known faction that doesn't immediately raise a full alert on Team Evil is led by someone with as much trustworthiness as Petyr Baelish.

[Errorname]

That's moving the goalpost.

I'm trying to clearly establish the goalposts, this has been my stance the entire time. I may have been unclear, because discussing the specific failure points of a scheme to usurp the city is a lot of fun but it's a separate argument, arranging a coup through a rival lord is still taking the city with an army in my view.

Team Evil would not be in command of the army, nor would the army be used in any phase of the operation. The city would be under civilian control for the entire operation.
No army is used either to take or to maintain control of the gate.

An army is used to maintain control of the gate: The Azurite army. In this scenario you're dealing with them as a threat by subverting them to your will, but still involves bringing the army under your control through your proxies in the nobility.

[brian 333]

Basically, you're looking at the situation as though TE are not only the more proactive side, but the only actors at all. They'd never get past initial contact with Kubota before actions start being taken against them, and any slip ups at all mean likely failure.

Not at all. I outlined a plan knowing that all plans must be adjusted to fit circumstances as they arise. When something happens that changes things, I improvise, adapt, and overcome.

I pulled a night watch and don't have a lot else to do for about 10 hours, but working with this could be fun.

Before I start, the assumption I'm making here is that we're starting from the point of no one except Redcloak, Xykon, and MitD being around on Team Evil's side, and the rest of OOTSverse in the state it was when when Team Evil initially re-recovered Serini's DIary, but without the army in tow.

Spoiler: I : Scout the city to figure out how to get in.

Show

A : Physical scouting and mapping, either invisibly or disguised.
B : Question locals about the power structures in the city.
B1 : Voluntary questioning of unsuspecting citizens
B2 : Involuntary questioning of kidnapped citizens, especially uniformed ones.
C : Identify methods of entering and exiting the city unnoticed.

Information gathering is by far the easiest and most uncontroversial part of your plan. There are only 2 real rocks I see.

First, manual surveillance without being detected is going to take months, even if it's just the palace and related areas, yet none of TE have any meaningful talent for stealth or information gathering. While it's unlikely that they'd blow the lid off their entire op during this phase unless things go catastrophically wrong, attentive security forces could easily be put on heightened alert by a series of small slips and unexplained disappearances or murders.

Second, you're talking about having Xykon crawling around an area full of paladins. Paladins with detect evil at will. OOTSverse makes this a unique problem for him. One errant cast of the spell could see his trail and lead to a wider alert.

In the scout portion of the outline, TE is learning how to get in and out of the city. They should be able, through a combination of simple disguises and magical concealment, (Sanctuary and Invisibility come to mind,) to remain unnoticed.

Spoiler: II : Make contact with disgruntled nobles.

Show

A : A minor officer of one or two disgruntled nobles is given an offer to present to their lord, reminding them that they personally will gain prestige by introducing TE to their lord.
B : Use that noble to gain access to Kubota, (presumably having learned he is the most powerful of the would-be usurpers.)
C : Team up, (presumably through Quarr,) with Kubota.

Again, not to complain about here. Kubota is even already making active deals with devils, so a lich and a goblin don't present much of a stretch. There is a question of trust, as Kubota might trust a devil(for whom lawfulness is inherent to his existence) but not mortals. Still, that'd result in plans for a betrayal, not denial of meeting.

Spoiler: III : Plots, schemes, and murders.

Show

A : Kubota directs TE toward his biggest rivals and obstacles while publicly claiming fear of the murderer able to do such deeds.
B : Stymie Shojo's attempts to find out who is behind the killings, magically through non-detection magic and physically by killing anyone who might succeed.
C : Blame Shojo's insanity for the ineffectual defense of the nobility.

This is where you start to lose me. Shojo wouldn't be directing the investigations, he'd order them. The Sapphire Guard wold actually carry them out, or perhaps a lower agency at least at first. But how many rivals could TE realistically remove before something breaks down in the plan? What happens when they bring some diamonds to the scene to resurrect anyone who saw something? How soon before the nobles up their personal defense, another still dies, and they realize it's not the dottiness of a largely unrelated leader?

Plus, Kubota's rivals are presumably not stupid and could piece together a strong motive for him. That's not enough for the sapphire guard to act but it is enough for the ninjas of the other to have a look. How many ninja teams can Kubota's ninjas fight off?

I guess Xykon has the power to do it in a night or two, but then the slow political burn you're trying to get that turns people against the Sapphire Guard doesn't happen.

This is where adaptability comes in handy. MitD can eat some, and be seen by the chamber maid leaving the scene. Xykon can Alter Self to look like a Sapphire Guard member, etc. Those who are raised would implicate rival nobles allied to Shojo or Sapphire Guardsmen.

Spoiler: IV : Take down the Sapphire Guard

Show

A : Set up an ally of Shojo as the one behind the murders.
A1 : Publicize the SG taking down this ally.
A2 : Have a ninja in SG livery be seen killing the ally before trial. ("You'll never reveal our complicity, traitor!")
B : Start rumors that these troubles could be stopped by the SG if they wanted to, so they must be behind it.
C : Among the surviving nobility, blame Shojo for the city's (noble's) troubles, and insinuate that he has become a mental case under the control of the SG, whose real goal is to replace the nobility as rulers of the city. Where Shojo weakened the nobility, Kubota would support a lord who strengthened them.

Spoiler: IV : Take down the Sapphire Guard

Show

The implausibilities here continue to deepen. Not only does every potential snag up to this point have to be avoided, but A2 is where I have to draw the hard no. If a paladin has somehow gotten this far and retained their powers, this'd make them fall for sure, and there's a lot more that'd be going down with the if such a widespread plan were in place. It'd be easy to check, too, just have them line up and detect evil: those who can't are either no longer paladins, or never were. Once all of them still can do it, you know you have a rat. Furthermore, the nobles know damn well what paladins are, and that such subversive schemes would be completely foreign to their methods of operating.

You're also assuming Shojo has in no way spotted any of this and begun to work against Kubota. Everything we saw of the old man suggests quite the opposite, that he'd be one of the very

I'm actually counting on Shojo trying to act against this. Hopefully I have implicated so many, (while keeping Kubota out of it,) that Shojo increases noble dissatisfaction by acting against his own innocent allies.

Spoiler: V : Take Over!

Show

A: Kubota convenes the nobility to oust Shojo and vote in a new Lord of Azure City.
B : With a great show of reluctance Kubota assumes lordship of the city.
B1 : Shojo is ordered into protective custody to be healed of his mental issues.
B2 : Kubota disbands the Sapphire Guard and exiles it's members, citing any reluctance on their part as proof of their treachery.
B3 : Many paladins won't go quietly, so RC, Xykon, and MitD clear them out.
C : Discover Soon's Trap in the Throne Room, if not when cleaning out the SG, then when Kubota attempts to assume the throne.

Basically the only part of this that goes as planned is A. Maybe. The surviving nobles would know a coup in motion when they see one, and something tells me that they won't simply go along with it. Particularly, I would expect Shojo himself to have an answer or two put together by now, up to and including outright discarding his semblance of insanity and bringing up any proof he's managed to scrounge up.

The disbandment and extermination of the SG would also probably send one or more of them running to the throne to destroy it. Especially now that Team Evil is operating openly enough to be noticed, they'd fulfill their oaths against what they see as traitors, official orders or not. Soon himself could easily reassure anyone who made it that this was the right call.

So even if the coup succeeds at this point, the seizure of the gate could easily fail.

From what I have seen, the nobles would side with whoever they see as the probable victor in a power struggle. This plays in my favor.
When one has played crazy long enough, who will believe him when he says he's not

Spoiler: VI : Eight Weeks

Show

A : Announce proof of the SG collusion with undead and let all know that the cleansing will require eight weeks.
B : TE researches how to get through Soon and the Martyrs, probably after multiple retreats.
C : The rituals begin.
D : The Order of the Stick shows up and knocks down the tower in an epic battle to get to Xykon.

Quite frankly, I just don't see anyone believing the SG were working with undead. Paladins, their oaths, and the effects of those oaths are common knowledge already, and there's no way to make sure Team Evil got every single ne of them. They'll do what we know from direct evidence they'd do: form a resistance and fight.

And this time, TE doesn't have the troops to keep the resistance down. Kubota's factions crumble under the numbers the Paladins raise from the armed forces and normal citizenry alike, and Team Evil have to hold the Throne room for a month or longer while under siege from basically everyone left in the city, while performing the ritual.

We do know that paladins were in the past involved in things which compromised their oaths.

The Ghost Martyrs are undead, so all you have to do is record their presence and play it on TeeVo. That is the one part where absolute truth is on my side.

Why would the peasants revolt? None of this impacts them. Nobles have been assassinating each other for decades. As long as the trade ships keep coming and going, and there are no shortages in the markets, why would the commoners care who claims to run the city?

If the paladins violate their oath to obey the orders of the Lord of the city and undertake armed insurrection against Kubota and the lords of the city, that would only confirm that Kubota was telling the truth when he claimed they were trying to take control of the city.

[JNAProductions]

Not at all. I outlined a plan knowing that all plans must be adjusted to fit circumstances as they arise. When something happens that changes things, I improvise, adapt, and overcome.

Sure didn’t look that way from your first post.

Plus, team Evil had an army. Why wouldn’t Xykon use it?

[brian 333]

Sure didn’t look that way from your first post.

Plus, team Evil had an army. Why wouldn’t Xykon use it?

I'm not sure why you think the first, but you do you.

Team Evil only had an army because the DM (author) gave them one. My thesis is that they must operate only with what they took in their retreat from Dorukons.

[brian 333]

He's not saying the army is marching into the throne room, he's saying you need enough control to make sure they don't. I for one think you're underestimating just how hard this would be in a city where the only known faction that doesn't immediately raise a full alert on Team Evil is led by someone with as much trustworthiness as Petyr Baelish.

Amazing how many people who should know better ended up trusting Petyr.

I'm trying to clearly establish the goalposts, this has been my stance the entire time. I may have been unclear, because discussing the specific failure points of a scheme to usurp the city is a lot of fun but it's a separate argument, arranging a coup through a rival lord is still taking the city with an army in my view.



An army is used to maintain control of the gate: The Azurite army. In this scenario you're dealing with them as a threat by subverting them to your will, but still involves bringing the army under your control through your proxies in the nobility.

I get that that is your point. I deny that it has anything to do with my point. The fact that the army is there is not relevant anywhere in the outline. You say that by default through my proxies they are defending the throne. Against who? Did a second army show up while I wasn't looking?

[Provengreil]

In the scout portion of the outline, TE is learning how to get in and out of the city. They should be able, through a combination of simple disguises and magical concealment, (Sanctuary and Invisibility come to mind,) to remain unnoticed.

So no answer to my objections then.

This is where adaptability comes in handy. MitD can eat some, and be seen by the chamber maid leaving the scene. Xykon can Alter Self to look like a Sapphire Guard member, etc. Those who are raised would implicate rival nobles allied to Shojo or Sapphire Guardsmen.

This utterly fails to account for Xykon's actual personality. The only time Xykon has ever showed a willingness to hide in any way was when he was destroyed and regenerating: he'd slip somewhere and someone would figure it out. The paladins not falling would be a big hint that it's not actually the SG. And MitD getting seen would definitely set off a monster hunt that increases the chances of Team Evil being found exponentially.

I'm actually counting on Shojo trying to act against this. Hopefully I have implicated so many, (while keeping Kubota out of it,) that Shojo increases noble dissatisfaction by acting against his own innocent allies.

And Shojo is just not good enough to compensate for that? He's run the city for over a decade without any of these power hungry nobles, to include the one you're pinning this entire plan on, even realizing that he's still doing it. In terms of successfully manipulating ongoing events to their favor, my chips are on Shojo every time here.

From what I have seen, the nobles would side with whoever they see as the probable victor in a power struggle. This plays in my favor.
When one has played crazy long enough, who will believe him when he says he's not

Again, this assumes Shojo got cornered in the first place, and I don't think it'll get that far. He didn't make it to his eighties in this environment without learning how to pick up on and sidestep this stuff.

We do know that paladins were in the past involved in things which compromised their oaths.

Knowingly, and without falling? Because that's what you're trying to sell here.

The Ghost Martyrs are undead, so all you have to do is record their presence and play it on TeeVo. That is the one part where absolute truth is on my side.

That room is warded against this kind of thing. Even if it wasn't, you have Kim Soon, the Paladin of Paladins, taking the fight to...who, exactly? Because people would have to trust the attackers more than the Paladins themselves, which is a heck of a hurdle.

Why would the peasants revolt? None of this impacts them. Nobles have been assassinating each other for decades. As long as the trade ships keep coming and going, and there are no shortages in the markets, why would the commoners care who claims to run the city?

If the paladins violate their oath to obey the orders of the Lord of the city and undertake armed insurrection against Kubota and the lords of the city, that would only confirm that Kubota was telling the truth when he claimed they were trying to take control of the city.

The paladins would make them care. That's the whole point of raising a resistance, and it'd be easier since the political infighting with Shojo would have been heard. Also, this whole coup thing, what with overthrowing the current lord of the city, assassinating however many powerful leaders, deposing the entirety of the royal guard and a major part of law enforcement, does not a stable situation make. You're trusting Kubota to prioritize the citizenry's needs rather than his own petty desires* at this point, which might be the worst bet in your entire scenario.

And once the resistance fighters believe the story that Kubota is illegitimate, the paladins' opposition to "the lord of the city" stops being an inconsistency.

*Which is going to include his desire to actually use the throne room. I just don't see him as the type to accept a deal that involves him letting someone else camp out there for so long without a very, very good reason.

[Mechalich]

Leaving complicated schemes aside, it seems to me that Xykon and Redcloak could have just taken the city by themselves using a combination of direct spellpower and minionomancy without needing an army at all anyway. In the battle for Azure City, the two armies primarily fight each other even as various high-level characters rampage through them completely unimpeded - Belkar's case is the most obvious, but he's not alone. In terms of Xykon and Redcloak's actions, this really only has the benefit of scattering a handful of high-level characters - primarily the members of the Order, who outclass the entirety of Azure City's defenses aside from the Ghost Martyrs by themselves - but I'm not even sure that matters. The nature of the Ghost Martyr situation means that anyone else who tries to stop Xykon in the throne room just dies due to the symbol of insanity anyway.

So without an army, maybe Xykon and Redcloak need to spend a couple of days battering through the defenders using additional minions - even in the battle itself, Redcloak's various minions accomplish more than the hobgoblin horde - but unless Azure City had some high-level reinforcements available somewhere, it doesn't matter. This is 3.5e, high-level spellcasters trump everything.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah-the biggest flaw I see is that Xykon just doesn’t roll that way.

He’s a blunt force kinda guy. He’s not incapable of subtly, but it’s not his forte, and definitely not his first plan of action.

[brian 333]

So no answer to my objections then.

I thought I had given an answer. They would not be going into places where the paladins hang out in the scouting phase. The objective at that point is to learn as much as they can about the people in the city while learning how to get in and out of the city gates. The paladins don't guard the gates. TE certainly would not be mapping the castle at this point.

This utterly fails to account for Xykon's actual personality. The only time Xykon has ever showed a willingness to hide in any way was when he was destroyed and regenerating: he'd slip somewhere and someone would figure it out.

This actually occurs just after the regeneration thing, so I don't see why he'd suddenly become stupid enough to just start slinging meteor swarms at the city gates.

The paladins not falling would be a big hint that it's not actually the SG. And MitD getting seen would definitely set off a monster hunt that increases the chances of Team Evil being found exponentially.

Wait. There was a whole thing about paladins not showing any signs of falling after murdering children, but now Ryu Average is going to know the paladins have not fallen? Based, of course, on their say-so.

And Shojo is just not good enough to compensate for that? He's run the city for over a decade without any of these power hungry nobles, to include the one you're pinning this entire plan on, even realizing that he's still doing it. In terms of successfully manipulating ongoing events to their favor, my chips are on Shojo every time here.

Again, this assumes Shojo got cornered in the first place, and I don't think it'll get that far. He didn't make it to his eighties in this environment without learning how to pick up on and sidestep this stuff.

This is where active gaming happens. My team vs. the DMs team. I have to counter, anticipate, and counter again. Improvise, adapt, sieze opportunities as they arise, lean into what is working and mitigate damage from both my mistakes and my enemy's successes.

Yes, I might blow it. I might have to retreat and try something else. I might have to roll up new character. Or, I might win.

Knowingly, and without falling? Because that's what you're trying to sell here.

Who is going to know they haven't fallen? Who is going to care? I'm using Shojo's long con against him. He's obviously nuts, so who is pulling his strings? I'm hinting that the SG are not what they pretend to be in public. They have usurped control of the city from its rightful rulers. I want to return power to the nobility. I'm on their side.

That room is warded against this kind of thing. Even if it wasn't, you have Kim Soon, the Paladin of Paladins, taking the fight to...who, exactly? Because people would have to trust the attackers more than the Paladins themselves, which is a heck of a hurdle.

Kubota trying to sit on the throne is likely to be a public event, with lots of factions watching. When the Ghost Martyrs attack, it will be public. All I have to do is spin the story. Even if TeeVo is out, eyewitnesses will spread the tale.

The paladins would make them care. That's the whole point of raising a resistance, and it'd be easier since the political infighting with Shojo would have been heard. Also, this whole coup thing, what with overthrowing the current lord of the city, assassinating however many powerful leaders, deposing the entirety of the royal guard and a major part of law enforcement, does not a stable situation make. You're trusting Kubota to prioritize the citizenry's needs rather than his own petty desires* at this point, which might be the worst bet in your entire scenario.

The paladins raising a military resistance against the rightful lord of the city?

Remember, at this point I have sowed enough misinformation that at least some believe the SG are behind the assassinations. (Eyewitnesses will have seen them do it!) If they begin to raise a resistance this will only confirm that they were out to usurp the throne all along.

And once the resistance fighters believe the story that Kubota is illegitimate, the paladins' opposition to "the lord of the city" stops being an inconsistency.

*Which is going to include his desire to actually use the throne room. I just don't see him as the type to accept a deal that involves him letting someone else camp out there for so long without a very, very good reason.

My plan neutralizes any resistance before it forms. The nobility is firmly in Kubota's pocket and by everything the city folk know, the SG drove good Lord Shojo mad so they could displace the rightful rulers of the land. Those who believe the paladins might help them get out of the city, but they won't be ready to start a war.

[JNAProductions]

Do you always play characters as chess pieces?

Snark aside, this plan is better if everything goes right, including relying on knowledge team Evil didn’t have, like the existence of the Martyrs.
But it’s not the kind of plan Xykon, the leader of team Evil, would go for. It doesn’t fit his character-doesn’t matter if it’s potentially better, he’d get bored and blow it up.

[Provengreil]

I thought I had given an answer. They would not be going into places where the paladins hang out in the scouting phase. The objective at that point is to learn as much as they can about the people in the city while learning how to get in and out of the city gates. The paladins don't guard the gates. TE certainly would not be mapping the castle at this point.

The castle is the only thing TO map. A fly spell and an invisibility potion are all team evil needs to enter or leave the city at will.

This actually occurs just after the regeneration thing, so I don't see why he'd suddenly become stupid enough to just start slinging meteor swarms at the city gates.

We have direct evidence that would, in fact, do something just like that.

Wait. There was a whole thing about paladins not showing any signs of falling after murdering children, but now Ryu Average is going to know the paladins have not fallen? Based, of course, on their say-so.

.....what? We saw Miko fall. There was a gigantic bolt from the gods and then her clothes lost all color.

This is where active gaming happens. My team vs. the DMs team. I have to counter, anticipate, and counter again. Improvise, adapt, sieze opportunities as they arise, lean into what is working and mitigate damage from both my mistakes and my enemy's successes.

Yes, I might blow it. I might have to retreat and try something else. I might have to roll up new character. Or, I might win.

you keep switching between you using these characters as character sheets and skill bundles, and them acting with all their motivations and flaws. Usually whichever one fits you best at the moment. Pick one.

Who is going to know they haven't fallen? Who is going to care? I'm using Shojo's long con against him. He's obviously nuts, so who is pulling his strings? I'm hinting that the SG are not what they pretend to be in public. They have usurped control of the city from its rightful rulers. I want to return power to the nobility. I'm on their side.

AH ah. I asked first. Which paladins worked against their oaths knowingly, and did not fall? You don't get to disregard that as unimportant and then call paladins mercurial or misguided. The fact that they are well known NOT to do such things is the entire point of having Paladins and not just a bog standard royal guard.

Kubota trying to sit on the throne is likely to be a public event, with lots of factions watching. When the Ghost Martyrs attack, it will be public. All I have to do is spin the story. Even if TeeVo is out, eyewitnesses will spread the tale.

So the Ghost Martyrs will rise to slaughter the attendees of a coronation? Because even a coronation such as Kubota's would not seem to be a direct threat to the gate in this scenario, as Team Evil is still presumably squatting in a basement while the show is all Kubota's.*

The paladins raising a military resistance against the rightful lord of the city?

Remember, at this point I have sowed enough misinformation that at least some believe the SG are behind the assassinations. (Eyewitnesses will have seen them do it!) If they begin to raise a resistance this will only confirm that they were out to usurp the throne all along.

I heard your argument that you'd convince people, but I defy that it'd work. Like, at all. Basic knowledge of what a paladin is and does, and what makes that different from a normal fighter or warrior guard, is the rule of this world.

My plan neutralizes any resistance before it forms. The nobility is firmly in Kubota's pocket and by everything the city folk know, the SG drove good Lord Shojo mad so they could displace the rightful rulers of the land. Those who believe the paladins might help them get out of the city, but they won't be ready to start a war.

You know, maybe if instead of "the paladins" I could try telling you that O'chul would lead a resistance. You really think he'd just give up and leave? or that he'd fail to inspire a following to stop the profane rituals happening in his city's throne room?

Or that Kubota would actually let Team Evil have the throne room after they've won it for him, for that matter? From his perspective, he's done all the heavy lifting on this, and he's not even really wrong. Xykon and Redcloak take out a few individuals and hide for the entire time in this plan, trusting all of it to an NPC. I can't see that, either.

*If his DID happen, there are extremely good odds one of the paladins shatters the gate and TE still loses, or at least doesn't win.

[ecarden]

An additional problem with all these slow maneuver attempts is that it means that Shojo and Sangwaan have quite a lot of time to figure out what's going on and counterplay politically, which seems like a game TE is spectacularly badly set up for. Kuboto may well be able to politically outplay Hinjo, but that's pretty thoroughly irrelevant as in this model, Shojo is still alive and in charge and there's no particular reason for Miko to kill him. Frankly, a big part of the defense of Soon's gate is somewhat accidental, in that the honor of a paladin is being tempered by the pragmatism/populism of a very competent ruler, but it does exist and trying to fight Shojo politically is just a massive mistake for TE, as it is almost the opposite of their skillset (though I suppose technically Xykon must have an extremely high Charisma).

But I guess I'm confused by what the question is. Is it, how could TE have taken the gate intact and performed the ritual without the army? Or is it, how could some other potential threat take the gate semi-permanently, which is what Soon had to be counter-planning for?

[Errorname]

I get that that is your point. I deny that it has anything to do with my point. The fact that the army is there is not relevant anywhere in the outline. You say that by default through my proxies they are defending the throne. Against who?

I said you are controlling them through proxies, I didn't say they were defending the throne. In this scenario you need to have control over them to induce them to inaction, so they don't defend the throne from you. That is the primary reason. That said...

Did a second army show up while I wasn't looking?

I mean, potentially. We only hear the political details we need to for the story so the broader politics outside of Azure City never really feature, but back when O-Chul joined up we know that there were refugees fleeing a nearby empire ruled by evil dragons and there's a pretty sizeable Hobgoblin nation with an existing grudge that is close enough to reach Azure City within a week of marching that in this hypothetical you haven't recruited, so it's reasonable to assume they are not all friendly.

And hey, the city that controls all the fanciest trade routes just had a massive coup and this new Lord Kubota doesn't seem too bright. If you're a hostile power, maybe you smell blood in the water. If you're an allied power, maybe the exiled Hinjo and the remaining Paladins say "hey, we just got overthrown" to an old ally and where in the canon timeline they see an evil lich who just rolled over the paladins and the city's army with legions of hobgoblins instead they'll see a city with an untested new leader and weakened by internal divisions.

This isn't some isolated wizard's lair or a pyramid in the middle of the desert that nobody even knows about, Azure City is a big target and what you do there will attract attention.

[brian 333]

Do you always play characters as chess pieces?

Yes, I do. I came to D&D by way of wargames, and we used it for small unit tactics before I discovered storytelling. Now I freely swap between modes as one or the other offers the best benefit.

Snark aside, this plan is better if everything goes right, including relying on knowledge team Evil didn’t have, like the existence of the Martyrs.
But it’s not the kind of plan Xykon, the leader of team Evil, would go for. It doesn’t fit his character-doesn’t matter if it’s potentially better, he’d get bored and blow it up.

Team Evil does not need to know about the Ghost Martyrs. They won't go anywhere near the throne until Kubota is in charge, not for fear of ghosts they don't know about, but to avoid the most powerful living paladins. If Kubota does not discover the ghosts when they take the throne, TE will when they arrive to begin the ritual. They can run out of the room and Redcloak can take the time to figure out how to dismiss them or destroy them. They might need a few tries.

And Xykon sat in that city for many weeks playing with O-Chul. Why should he be any less patient in this scenario?

An additional problem with all these slow maneuver attempts is that it means that Shojo and Sangwaan have quite a lot of time to figure out what's going on and counterplay politically, which seems like a game TE is spectacularly badly set up for. Kuboto may well be able to politically outplay Hinjo, but that's pretty thoroughly irrelevant as in this model, Shojo is still alive and in charge and there's no particular reason for Miko to kill him. Frankly, a big part of the defense of Soon's gate is somewhat accidental, in that the honor of a paladin is being tempered by the pragmatism/populism of a very competent ruler, but it does exist and trying to fight Shojo politically is just a massive mistake for TE, as it is almost the opposite of their skillset (though I suppose technically Xykon must have an extremely high Charisma).

But I guess I'm confused by what the question is. Is it, how could TE have taken the gate intact and performed the ritual without the army? Or is it, how could some other potential threat take the gate semi-permanently, which is what Soon had to be counter-planning for?

Obviously, TE fleeing Dorukon's, not finding an army, and arriving at Azure City is the scenario I'm contemplating.

Sangwaan , the guy who didn't see TE coming with an army, will see them coming without an army? When RC and Xykon are actively doing what they can to go unnoticed?

I agree politics is TE's weakness. That's actually why I seek out nobles in the city to be my proxies. Basically, TE does magic and murder, promising great things to Kubota in exchange for a few weeks in the throne room when he takes over. Kubota picks targets, spreads rumors, and builds alliances.

I said you are controlling them through proxies, I didn't say they were defending the throne. In this scenario you need to have control over them to induce them to inaction, so they don't defend the throne from you. That is the primary reason. That said...



I mean, potentially. We only hear the political details we need to for the story so the broader politics outside of Azure City never really feature, but back when O-Chul joined up we know that there were refugees fleeing a nearby empire ruled by evil dragons and there's a pretty sizeable Hobgoblin nation with an existing grudge that is close enough to reach Azure City within a week of marching that in this hypothetical you haven't recruited, so it's reasonable to assume they are not all friendly.

And hey, the city that controls all the fanciest trade routes just had a massive coup and this new Lord Kubota doesn't seem too bright. If you're a hostile power, maybe you smell blood in the water. If you're an allied power, maybe the exiled Hinjo and the remaining Paladins say "hey, we just got overthrown" to an old ally and where in the canon timeline they see an evil lich who just rolled over the paladins and the city's army with legions of hobgoblins instead they'll see a city with an untested new leader and weakened by internal divisions.

This isn't some isolated wizard's lair or a pyramid in the middle of the desert that nobody even knows about, Azure City is a big target and what you do there will attract attention.

This actually has no impact on my plans. Assume these other armies show up. Assume they do defeat the Azurites before TE can complete the ritual. They come storming up the stairs... and follow the bouncing ball. Darn, now we have to start the rituals over.

[JNAProductions]

If you only play a character as that character when convenient, and otherwise treat them as merely a resource to maximize victory, you do not play the way I play.

Nor do you play the way the story is written-Team Evil is not controlled from some outside source, aiming to maximize victory. It’s comprised of characters, who have goals and desires, but aren’t always perfect actors towards those goals.

So long as you have fun, I don’t care how you play the game. But it’s not a good idea to assume your way is universal, which is what you seem to be doing here.

[brian 333]

An additional problem with all these slow maneuver attempts is that it means that Shojo and Sangwaan have quite a lot of time to figure out what's going on and counterplay politically, which seems like a game TE is spectacularly badly set up for. Kuboto may well be able to politically outplay Hinjo, but that's pretty thoroughly irrelevant as in this model, Shojo is still alive and in charge and there's no particular reason for Miko to kill him. Frankly, a big part of the defense of Soon's gate is somewhat accidental, in that the honor of a paladin is being tempered by the pragmatism/populism of a very competent ruler, but it does exist and trying to fight Shojo politically is just a massive mistake for TE, as it is almost the opposite of their skillset (though I suppose technically Xykon must have an extremely high Charisma).

But I guess I'm confused by what the question is. Is it, how could TE have taken the gate intact and performed the ritual without the army? Or is it, how could some other potential threat take the gate semi-permanently, which is what Soon had to be counter-planning for?

I said you are controlling them through proxies, I didn't say they were defending the throne. In this scenario you need to have control over them to induce them to inaction, so they don't defend the throne from you. That is the primary reason. That said...



I mean, potentially. We only hear the political details we need to for the story so the broader politics outside of Azure City never really feature, but back when O-Chul joined up we know that there were refugees fleeing a nearby empire ruled by evil dragons and there's a pretty sizeable Hobgoblin nation with an existing grudge that is close enough to reach Azure City within a week of marching that in this hypothetical you haven't recruited, so it's reasonable to assume they are not all friendly.

And hey, the city that controls all the fanciest trade routes just had a massive coup and this new Lord Kubota doesn't seem too bright. If you're a hostile power, maybe you smell blood in the water. If you're an allied power, maybe the exiled Hinjo and the remaining Paladins say "hey, we just got overthrown" to an old ally and where in the canon timeline they see an evil lich who just rolled over the paladins and the city's army with legions of hobgoblins instead they'll see a city with an untested new leader and weakened by internal divisions.

This isn't some isolated wizard's lair or a pyramid in the middle of the desert that nobody even knows about, Azure City is a big target and what you do there will attract attention.

If you only play a character as that character when convenient, and otherwise treat them as merely a resource to maximize victory, you do not play the way I play.

Nor do you play the way the story is written-Team Evil is not controlled from some outside source, aiming to maximize victory. It’s comprised of characters, who have goals and desires, but aren’t always perfect actors towards those goals.

So long as you have fun, I don’t care how you play the game. But it’s not a good idea to assume your way is universal, which is what you seem to be doing here.

No, I do not assume that at all.

Strictly from a roleplay/story perspective, TE could do the exact scenario outlined above. Political machination is well within Redcloak's portfolio. See what he did with Gobbotopia. Is he great at it? No, but then we are not playing a campaign full of minmaxed characters. (I don't do that anyway. My characters are usually horribly built from a mechanical PoV.)

In the story as written TE coincidentally encountered an army armed, equipped, trained, and motivated for the specific task of taking over the city that was their next obstacle.

Why could The Author not have had coincidences on a similar scale to aid TE in a political scenario? It would be less implausible to find Kubota a competent usurper than to find a convenient army just when you need it.

[Provengreil]

In the story as written TE coincidentally encountered an army armed, equipped, trained, and motivated for the specific task of taking over the city that was their next obstacle.

This is patently incorrect in a crucial way. Team Evil only picked Azure City as their next target AFTER the army fell into their lap. Given that Xykon knows teleport, I find it exceptionally likely that they'd have headed straight for Girard's gate instead without the army.

Also starting a theoretical discussion that breaks down how a group of characters could accomplish something, and then alternating between them having personalities when the stats won't help and stats when the personalities won't help, then shelving them completely when neither helps, is kind of a dishonest move. Xykon won't be content to be Kubota's attack dog and then sit in a basement while the politics play out, he'll look to entertain himself. He entertains himself by killing things and indulging in cruel black comedy. This tendency VASTLY increases the risk of exposure and you can't just ignore it by calling him patient when we all know he's actually quite impulsive.

[Larsaan]

I feel like I should point out that "the point" of Team Evil stumbling across the hobgoblins wasn't just to give them an army (which, given their past actions, is almost certainly something they would have set about acquiring anyway), it was to put them back in the game earlier than anyone expected.

Well, that, and the fact that they were hobgoblins specifically was crucial for Redcloak's character development.

[Aquillion]

I mean you don't need an army, obviously; given the wide range of powers and options in D&D there's always another way. But you have to get past the city's defenses somehow, and that's a huge deal. That said, I think that that undersells what the most important part of Soon's defenses was (the one that nearly killed Xykon) and why it was so effective.

Anyone who tried to bypass the traditional defenses risked getting ganked by the Ghost Paladins. And almost nobody knew about the ghost paladins! You carefully structured your plan so the villains "coincidentally" discover them, but that would have to be total luck, because they were a massive secret and did, in fact, manage to take the villains by surprise.

Your plan also requires massive amounts of luck and effort at various points; there's numerous ways it could go awry. Could it work? Yeah, sure. No defense is going to hold up if the villains roll natural 20s at every key moment and the defenders fail at every opportunity they have to stop them.

Most of the other gates had one or two clear single points of failure. Durkon and Lirian's gates relied on a single big powerful spellcaster, who generally had a few narrow tricks, and were relatively vulnerable once those were eliminated. It's hard to evaluate Girard's gate because we never saw its defenses working properly, but it seems to have been all-in on illusion. On top of this, all of their defenses (ironically including Girard, who prided himself on trickery and deception) were basically what you would expect if you knew anything about the people in question - part of the reason Soon's final trap was so effective, IMHO, is because nobody would expect a Paladin to do something like that.

Looking at your plan, there are numerous high-risk points of failure (I would rate the chance of each of these steps succeeding, individually, at less than 50%). Also, as a key point, since you rely on them not knowing they're being infiltrated early on, they can't actually advance with their army - if Kubota is discovered to be collaborating with goblins and a lich at any point before he's in full control, he immediately ends up in jail at best and likely executed.

• They're extremely likely to be caught in the scouting phase, before anything else, at which point the entire plan basically goes down the drain. The Sapphire Guard, after all, has multiple spellcasters, including a high-level seer; and the entire place is filled with Paladins who can detect evil at will and who are generally relatively incorruptible. Losing at this point not only ruins your plan but also ruins the surprise of the military siege backup plan.
• There is no guarantee that they successfully make contact with the right nobles. Just because someone wants power doesn't mean they're stupid; it doesn't take much to realize that Xykon and Redcloak's long-term plans are incompatible with humans retaining any sort of power in the city. Therefore, it's extremely likely that whichever noble they contact goes straight to the Paladins, at which point the plan goes down the drain.
• Even if Kubota plays along, framing Shojo is hard. Again, as a reminder, the Paladins can detect evil and the city employs multiple high-level clerics and wizards, including a Seer. And getting into power is even harder. If Kubota could do all this, why hasn't he done it already? What are Redcloak and Xykon actually offering him that he doesn't have access to already? (Remember, neither can actually enter the city while it's under the control of Paladins, so they can't provide direct magical support - at least not without massive risks which they have no reason to take.) I feel like you're massively overestimating Kubota's competence here - he clearly thought he could pull amazing stuff off but in reality his track record doesn't suggest he's actually a big player.
• But it could get even worse. Kubota is a backstabbing treacherous snake. He knows that Redcloak and Xykon's plans are completely incompatible with his own; therefore, the most likely thing he does when they contact him is pretend to play along, milk them for as many resources as he can without actually doing anything that would get them into the city, then backstab them at the most crucial moment in order to look like a hero. Maybe he fails at this? But there's a high chance that Kubota plays along until he's in charge, then immediately betrays Xykon and never disbands the Sapphire Guard; or, worse, pretends to disband the Sapphire Guard in order to lure Redcloak and Xykon into a trap. Why on earth would he give them the city when he doesn't have to? He probably doesn't like Paladins, but Evil Is Not One Big Happy Family; the Paladins have to follow the law and are generally favorable to humans, so at the end of the day he's going to choose them over Redcloak and Xykon.

Honestly the last point is the big one. What possible reason would Kubota have to actually give Redcloak and Xykon access to the throne room? Why would he even consider doing that? At that point he has what they want and they have no leverage to make him do anything (no, a Lich and a goblin saying "he's totes evil tho" isn't going to mean anything to him if he already made it through all the deceptions needed to get to this point. Even if they do, the Sapphire Guard is not stupid and will prioritize eliminating Redcloak and Xykon over him.)

He's not going to submit to any sort of magically-binding contract unless they have something to offer him that would be worth the vast risk that implies, which they simply don't; and even if they did, he has access to a bunch of wealth and could probably just pay a spellcaster to undo it. Even if everything else goes properly, any human noble they work with is going to immediately want Xykon and the bearer of the Crimson Mantle dead once they're in power in order to clean up loose ends.

Compare this to the other gates, where the plan is generally something like:

• Win one big fight.
• Overcome one big magical working.

...both of which are much more doable. Honestly even the normal way to get through Soon's gate is similar, it's just that the "big fight" is on a bigger scale. Your plan adds a ton of complexity and points of failure for nothing.

[Errorname]

In the story as written TE coincidentally encountered an army armed, equipped, trained, and motivated for the specific task of taking over the city that was their next obstacle.

Why could The Author not have had coincidences on a similar scale to aid TE in a political scenario? It would be less implausible to find Kubota a competent usurper than to find a convenient army just when you need it.

Because the writer already gave them a key to taking Azure City? There's an entire prequel story justifying why the army is there and everything. No obligation on the writer's part to give the villains an alternative path to victory, even if this was a tabletop module and not a linear narrative.

[brian 333]

This is patently incorrect in a crucial way. Team Evil only picked Azure City as their next target AFTER the army fell into their lap. Given that Xykon knows teleport, I find it exceptionally likely that they'd have headed straight for Girard's gate instead without the army.

They were nearest to Azure City when they came out of the caves.

Also starting a theoretical discussion that breaks down how a group of characters could accomplish something, and then alternating between them having personalities when the stats won't help and stats when the personalities won't help, then shelving them completely when neither helps, is kind of a dishonest move.

You were the one insisting I was not taking into account the personalities, and when I do you accuse me of dishonesty?

Xykon won't be content to be Kubota's attack dog and then sit in a basement while the politics play out, he'll look to entertain himself. He entertains himself by killing things and indulging in cruel black comedy. This tendency VASTLY increases the risk of exposure and you can't just ignore it by calling him patient when we all know he's actually quite impulsive.

This is the same Xykon who sat for how long in Gobbotopia doing nothing while Redcloak organized the hobgoblins? I find this particular objection to contradict what we have seen in comic.

I feel like I should point out that "the point" of Team Evil stumbling across the hobgoblins wasn't just to give them an army (which, given their past actions, is almost certainly something they would have set about acquiring anyway), it was to put them back in the game earlier than anyone expected.

Well, that, and the fact that they were hobgoblins specifically was crucial for Redcloak's character development.

I do not disagree with this. It also has nothing to do with my point. The assertion made was that one strength of Soon's Gate was that an army was required to take it.

My thesis is that it could have been captured in a number of ways, one of which has been outlined above.

I feel like I should point out that "the point" of Team Evil stumbling across the hobgoblins wasn't just to give them an army (which, given their past actions, is almost certainly something they would have set about acquiring anyway), it was to put them back in the game earlier than anyone expected.

Well, that, and the fact that they were hobgoblins specifically was crucial for Redcloak's character development.

This is beyond the scope of my thesis. The idea is that Soon's gate could have been captured without an army, not that I could have written the story better.

I mean you don't need an army, obviously; given the wide range of powers and options in D&D there's always another way. But you have to get past the city's defenses somehow, and that's a huge deal. That said, I think that that undersells what the most important part of Soon's defenses was (the one that nearly killed Xykon) and why it was so effective.

Anyone who tried to bypass the traditional defenses risked getting ganked by the Ghost Paladins. And almost nobody knew about the ghost paladins! You carefully structured your plan so the villains "coincidentally" discover them, but that would have to be total luck, because they were a massive secret and did, in fact, manage to take the villains by surprise.

Your plan also requires massive amounts of luck and effort at various points; there's numerous ways it could go awry. Could it work? Yeah, sure. No defense is going to hold up if the villains roll natural 20s at every key moment and the defenders fail at every opportunity they have to stop them.

Most of the other gates had one or two clear single points of failure. Durkon and Lirian's gates relied on a single big powerful spellcaster, who generally had a few narrow tricks, and were relatively vulnerable once those were eliminated. It's hard to evaluate Girard's gate because we never saw its defenses working properly, but it seems to have been all-in on illusion. On top of this, all of their defenses (ironically including Girard, who prided himself on trickery and deception) were basically what you would expect if you knew anything about the people in question - part of the reason Soon's final trap was so effective, IMHO, is because nobody would expect a Paladin to do something like that.

Looking at your plan, there are numerous high-risk points of failure (I would rate the chance of each of these steps succeeding, individually, at less than 50%). Also, as a key point, since you rely on them not knowing they're being infiltrated early on, they can't actually advance with their army - if Kubota is discovered to be collaborating with goblins and a lich at any point before he's in full control, he immediately ends up in jail at best and likely executed.

• They're extremely likely to be caught in the scouting phase, before anything else, at which point the entire plan basically goes down the drain. The Sapphire Guard, after all, has multiple spellcasters, including a high-level seer; and the entire place is filled with Paladins who can detect evil at will and who are generally relatively incorruptible. Losing at this point not only ruins your plan but also ruins the surprise of the military siege backup plan.
• There is no guarantee that they successfully make contact with the right nobles. Just because someone wants power doesn't mean they're stupid; it doesn't take much to realize that Xykon and Redcloak's long-term plans are incompatible with humans retaining any sort of power in the city. Therefore, it's extremely likely that whichever noble they contact goes straight to the Paladins, at which point the plan goes down the drain.
• Even if Kubota plays along, framing Shojo is hard. Again, as a reminder, the Paladins can detect evil and the city employs multiple high-level clerics and wizards, including a Seer. And getting into power is even harder. If Kubota could do all this, why hasn't he done it already? What are Redcloak and Xykon actually offering him that he doesn't have access to already? (Remember, neither can actually enter the city while it's under the control of Paladins, so they can't provide direct magical support - at least not without massive risks which they have no reason to take.) I feel like you're massively overestimating Kubota's competence here - he clearly thought he could pull amazing stuff off but in reality his track record doesn't suggest he's actually a big player.
• But it could get even worse. Kubota is a backstabbing treacherous snake. He knows that Redcloak and Xykon's plans are completely incompatible with his own; therefore, the most likely thing he does when they contact him is pretend to play along, milk them for as many resources as he can without actually doing anything that would get them into the city, then backstab them at the most crucial moment in order to look like a hero. Maybe he fails at this? But there's a high chance that Kubota plays along until he's in charge, then immediately betrays Xykon and never disbands the Sapphire Guard; or, worse, pretends to disband the Sapphire Guard in order to lure Redcloak and Xykon into a trap. Why on earth would he give them the city when he doesn't have to? He probably doesn't like Paladins, but Evil Is Not One Big Happy Family; the Paladins have to follow the law and are generally favorable to humans, so at the end of the day he's going to choose them over Redcloak and Xykon.

Honestly the last point is the big one. What possible reason would Kubota have to actually give Redcloak and Xykon access to the throne room? Why would he even consider doing that? At that point he has what they want and they have no leverage to make him do anything (no, a Lich and a goblin saying "he's totes evil tho" isn't going to mean anything to him if he already made it through all the deceptions needed to get to this point. Even if they do, the Sapphire Guard is not stupid and will prioritize eliminating Redcloak and Xykon over him.)

He's not going to submit to any sort of magically-binding contract unless they have something to offer him that would be worth the vast risk that implies, which they simply don't; and even if they did, he has access to a bunch of wealth and could probably just pay a spellcaster to undo it. Even if everything else goes properly, any human noble they work with is going to immediately want Xykon and the bearer of the Crimson Mantle dead once they're in power in order to clean up loose ends.

Compare this to the other gates, where the plan is generally something like:

• Win one big fight.
• Overcome one big magical working.

...both of which are much more doable. Honestly even the normal way to get through Soon's gate is similar, it's just that the "big fight" is on a bigger scale. Your plan adds a ton of complexity and points of failure for nothing.

Any plan has multiple points of possible failure. That is where the players improvise, adapt, and overcome.

In my plan, TE does not approach the Throne Room until their ally is in charge, not to avoid the ghost martyrs that they do not know about, but to avoid being spotted by the paladins they do know about.

That entire prequel story was written to support the main story as written. Had The Author been wishing to write a different story, the prequel story would have supported that. So, this point is invalid because it is circular logic which fails to address the presented thesis.

I am presupposing the absence of an available army for TE to recruit. The presented outline is one way that could have been done. In this alternate scenario, Kubota would take advantage of TE to get things done that he could not without the help of TE.

Taking out his strongest rivals by means that cannot be traced back to him is one obvious benefit. Using that opportunity to undermine the rule of Shojo, (who is already seen as a helpless puppet by the nobility,) is another. The opportunity to rid the city of those goody two-shoes paladins is yet another.

The most important thing is that TE will not want to stay and rule the city. They will take what they want and leave Kubota to rule.

Because the writer already gave them a key to taking Azure City? There's an entire prequel story justifying why the army is there and everything. No obligation on the writer's part to give the villains an alternative path to victory, even if this was a tabletop module and not a linear narrative.

There is certainly no obligation for the writer to write his story in any way other than as his Muse requires. I fully support the freedom of artists to create whatever they want without pressure to conform to any outside influence.

Which is why that has nothing at all to do with what this thread is about. It was said that one strength of Soon's Gate was that it required an army to capture. I am presenting a disproof of that assertion, not a critique of The Order of the Stick.

[ecarden]

They were nearest to Azure City when they came out of the caves.

High level spellcasters. Distance does not matter.

This is the same Xykon who sat for how long in Gobbotopia doing nothing while Redcloak organized the hobgoblins? I find this particular objection to contradict what we have seen in comic.

Right, because he had people to murder and a paladin to torture. If he's doing that here, he's probably given the game away.

The most important thing is that TE will not want to stay and rule the city. They will take what they want and leave Kubota to rule.

And why would he believe that? He's a paranoid, treacherous, evil megalomaniac. Of course he's not going to believe the Goblin and Lich just want to 'borrow his throne room' for a month or two!

More broadly, I'm not the original commenter, but you seem to be sliding between a couple of arguments in a manner I find confusing:

1) It is possible for a group of characters with TE's abilities to capture Soon's gate without use of an external army by internal subversion, or some other means, assuming things break their way.
2) TE could have captured Azure City by slow subversion in the universe as we see it.
3) If TE had chosen another route, or never found an army, then something else would have broken their way because due to authorial fiat they are going to capture the gate.

1 and 3 are sort of transparently true, but don't really reflect anything interesting about the Gate's defenses. A high-enough-powered band of PCs can, if they have a permissive DM and are willing to be creative, take over a city and rule it from the shadows. But that's because, especially in 3.5, a high-enough-powered band of adventurers with a permissive DM can do almost-literally anything. The author can do literally whatever they want.

2 seems fairly absurd to me. The moment TE somehow sneaks into the city and starts acting up, they're in the heart of their enemy's power, with no reliable support. Frankly, the most likely thing is that Kubota uses this to undermine Shojo/Hinjo and betrays them instantly to the Saphire Guard and his own forces (which isn't terribly likely to succeed, but blows the whole 'sneak around' plan out of the water. But even if that doesn't happen, Xykon wanders off when Redcloak is asleep and massacres and orphanage, or whatever and this also requires Redcloak to be able to be in this city without losing his **** and starting to murder paladins the moment he sees them.

But more than this, we see that the city's defenses are actually fairly well set up. It takes quite a bit of effort to sneak up on them, even from the hinterlands and they are spotted eventually (forgot this was deliberate, to try to locate the gate...which I'll point out they didn't know the location of, so they don't know they need the throne room at all and the only parties who know its location are Shojo and the leadership of the Saphire Guard). Trying to do this from within the bastion of their power strikes me as very silly. Moreover, even if Xykon and Redcloak can effectively and unlimitedly protect themselves from any surveillance, they won't necessarily be looking for them, they'll be looking for the murderer of a bunch of nobles...which seems pretty likely to lead them to Kubota, given the presence of a Seer/Diviner.

Then Shojo 'accidentally' mentions that to the heirs of the dead and suddenly Kubota's dead from 'accidentally stabbing himself thirteen times in the back' and this whole plan fails.

[Errorname]

They were nearest to Azure City when they came out of the caves.

Travel time is only a concern for them because they're moving with an army.

That has nothing at all to do with what this thread is about. It was said that one strength of Soon's Gate was that it required an army to capture. I am presenting a disproof of that assertion, not a critique of The Order of the Stick.

You literally said that because the story bends to give Xykon and Redcloak a huge army it would also bend to accommodate them taking the city through infiltration and subterfuge. I was directly responding to an argument you made.

[Provengreil]

They were nearest to Azure City when they came out of the caves.

And sans the army, Xykon has Teleport and no reason not to use it. The only question left is which gate is likely to be easiest to take with just the three of them, which they probably figured was Girard's based on that they went to the desert before the arctic.

You were the one insisting I was not taking into account the personalities, and when I do you accuse me of dishonesty?

Is this you?

Now I freely swap between modes as one or the other offers the best benefit.

Is this also you?

let me present an outline of one possible way Team Evil could have gained unfettered access to the throne for two months without an army.

You can't swap between it being specifically team evil, who have characterization and the psychological quirks that come with that, and them just being pawns in a game against a GM that only you can see, and say you're making an honest argument.

Either it's an undefined lich and cleric subverting A city, or it's THIS lich and cleric subverting THIS city(You'd find a Kubota type either way, so I'll concede that part). And THIS lich and cleric cannot even be seen once in THIS city without calling in the full alert, yet have shown no significant ability to do so beyond possessing a basic utility spell. Nor would THIS lich be content to sit around, as ecarden aptly pointed out two posts up. He'd find someone to hurt for fun, over and over, and the only reason it didn't bite him in Azure City was that they had total control of the city already.

I also note that Team Evil, in your plan, have done little more than give Kubota permission to do a coup, rather than be actors themselves. In fact, soon as they make contact, the best thing to do mechanically is literally bury Xykon for a while and have Redcloak cast extended buffs on the ninjas for assassination missions while staying in Kubota's attic. Your entire analysis treats them this way, as if they've become NPCs to their own plan. Recloak would probably swallow that, he's taken worse in service of the idea of controlling Xykon, but would Xykon himself take it? I'm thinking no.

On that note, by making them so passive, you haven't let Team Evil seize the throne, you've let Kubota seize the throne. Team Evil's help has been hidden from everyone the whole time, and you plan on selling the idea that the Sapphire Guard were working with undead, to strengthen Kubota's lie. Given that sales pitch and the fact that there's no way TE spills the beans on the gate, I can't think of a single reason for Kubota not to sell them up the river before Shojo's corpse cools. Again, of course, covered upthread by ecarden.

[Synesthesy]

Are we talking about the same Xykon that doesn't solve problems with fire only when he's solving them with lightnings?

The only thing that he could have done differently is that he could go alone on Azure City like Daenerys and his dragon on King's Landing, exterminate all the population with the help of some summoned creatures and undead, and go for the victory that way. Even the Order of the Stick doesn't stand a chance against Xykon and Redcloak and the Monster and Tsukiko, and they are the only high level character in town. The help of few paladins like O-Chul wouldn't be enough.

Then obviously there are the Ghost Martyrs, but neither Xykon or Redcloak could have known.