Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[Tubercular Ox]

Go away, Ox, and take your silly blue goat along too! But, more seriously, hm, interesting find, and I quite in tune with the other instances of missed-updates-in-late-3.0-books theme we have running with Death Dogs and whatnot.

I'm pretty sure it's meant to be a camel. Look up Baphomet. Him and the big guy are eerie. Note the skinny legs. The Carbuncle matches the art, but doesn't have the kick butt powers that it does in GDGU. The Froghemoth and the Flumphs are there, but the art doesn't match. My instinct is that there must be at least one more book he's using, with Hordlings in it, and maybe a stronger Carbuncle.

Someone refresh my memory: was this version a thing in previous editions, then?

It does make sense that Tome of Horrors would be more faithful to the original art than WotC, for obvious reasons. For some reason I haven't gotten off my butt to look up the original monster manuals these monsters were in. Even if I did, I'd probably suspect that Tome of Horrors is more believable as a convenient source for Rich than Rich reminiscing perfectly about a bunch of old monster manuals. But I don't know and I'm very grateful to you for looking at it with me.

[Metastachydium]

The Froghemoth and the Flumphs are there, but the art doesn't match.

I think it works out about fine for Flumphs, and the Froghemoth is pretty close, save for the number of eyes.

For some reason I haven't gotten off my butt to look up the original monster manuals these monsters were in. Even if I did, I'd probably suspect that Tome of Horrors is more believable as a convenient source for Rich than Rich reminiscing perfectly about a bunch of old monster manuals.

I mean, according to the ToH itself, most of them are from just two books (2e!FF and 2e!MM2).

[Tubercular Ox]

the Froghemoth is pretty close, save for the number of eyes.

But if you google image Froghemoth, there's a mini that matches much more closely.

I mean, according to the ToH itself, most of them are from just two books (2e!FF and 2e!MM2).

Hahaha, I'm dumb. Yes. And this explains why there's such a strong overlap between the 3e Fiend Folio and Tome of Horrors.

I wanted to do more, but I only examined the Disenchanters. The 2e disenchanter looks like it should be shilling Menthols, and doesn't fit Rich's art at all.

The 1e Disenchanter has a star at the end of its trunk, which Rich might be trying to render with all those fingery bits. But the star actually belongs to the shield the trunk is touching. OTOH, it's vague and Rich may not have been staring as hard at the art as I am now.

The 1e Disenchanter has serious anatomy problems, e.g. that is not how camel humps work. Rich could've fixed this with any decent image of a camel, including a pack of cigarettes, but he would have to decide to, so it depends how faithful he wants to be to source art.

In short, I want to keep trying but I'm not feeling it yet. I'm no longer even certain Rich's Disenchanters are Large. The best size reference is panel 5, which makes them look big, but Roy is actually on hands and knees. OTOH, Rich's horses are also unusually short.

[MultitudeMan]

After the conversation between Lien and Serini in the latest strip, especially panel 4, can we say anything additional about Serini's INT score?

We had Lien at 10+ (Good, not dumb), and Serini at around 12+ due to age, but with no other info.

Could we now say that she had INT of 11+ at the time she designed Kraagor's Tomb, and therefore 13+ now? I know assigning mental stats based on actions is perilous, but we have a reference to comparative intelligence by one character about another, which she doesn't deny.

[InvisibleBison]

After the conversation between Lien and Serini in the latest strip, especially panel 4, can we say anything additional about Serini's INT score?

We had Lien at 10+ (Good, not dumb), and Serini at around 12+ due to age, but with no other info.

Could we now say that she had INT of 11+ at the time she designed Kraagor's Tomb, and therefore 13+ now? I know assigning mental stats based on actions is perilous, but we have a reference to comparative intelligence by one character about another, which she doesn't deny.

I think this is covered in the FAQ:

Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

[MultitudeMan]

I think this is covered in the FAQ:

Yes, I know that quote, but I don't think it really applies in this case. I think there's an earlier FAQ that is more pertinent:

Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or their own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

I'm not saying we should amend Serini's INT score because I think she did an intelligent thing. I'm saying we should amend Serini's INT score because Lien says that she's not as clever as Serini, and we have already established a minimum INT for Lien.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm not saying we should amend Serini's INT score because I think she did an intelligent thing. I'm saying we should amend Serini's INT score because Lien says that she's not as clever as Serini, and we have already established a minimum INT for Lien.

I see, I must have misread your earlier post (though looking at it now, I'm not sure how). I think what you're proposing seems reasonable.

[Bird]

Merchandise isn't an allowable source for this thread, I suppose, but still, it's interesting that the new t-shirt designs identify a few characters' classes. Notably, one shirt indicates that Tarquin is a Fighter; another has Oona as a Ranger.


Finally, we have a new set of nine designs, highlighting each character class and the variety of characters from the comic that follow that path. Pick the one that matches your current D&D character, your internal self-conception, or just your favorite OOTS character!

[Tubercular Ox]

It makes me wish there were a graveyard for interesting ideas. I'd love to read it as much as inter Tarquin as a Swordsage.

But Giant himself says that Wrecan is a Crusader, so just because he nixed Swordsage doesn't mean we can conclude Tarquin's a fighter.

I should probably wait for the DABDA to finish its course before getting too serious.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, there are more than a few multiclass peeps in the class shirts anyways, so…

[Bird]

Now that I think about it, I was assuming that merchandise doesn't count for purposes of this thread, but in this instance I wonder if it might be Word of Giant? Enough to establish that the characters on each shirt have at least 1 level in the listed class? (Probably not. Just throwing that out there.)

[Gurgeh]

In Oona's case I don't think it's any more (or less) evidence than Roy explicitly calling her a ranger in 1273. I think that's good enough, the consensus position in discussion says it isn't, so I expect we're still stuck with the status quo.

[Yendor]

Now that I think about it, I was assuming that merchandise doesn't count for purposes of this thread, but in this instance I wonder if it might be Word of Giant? Enough to establish that the characters on each shirt have at least 1 level in the listed class? (Probably not. Just throwing that out there.)

Word of Giant is "there's still some flexibility in each category" (e.g. Wrecan), so we can't take it as definitive.

[Tubercular Ox]

Okay, hear me out.

I said the new swag nixes the Blue Carbuncle.

Rich did not correct me.

I was wrong. The new swag supports the Blue Carbuncle.

How suspicious can I be that he did not explicitly say that Tarquin is not a Swordsage?

[Tubercular Ox]

Since it's coming up in other threads, this is intended to explain why some people, not necessarily you, think Tarquin has Swordsage tendencies. It covers only the four biggest points.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html
Counter Charge: Setting Sun 1 Counter
With a quick sidestep, you send a charging opponent sprawling.

Ballista Throw: Setting Sun 6 Strike
You grab your opponent and spin like a top, swinging him around before throwing him at your opponents like a bolt from a ballista.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html
Disrupting Blow: Diamond Mind 5 Strike
Successful attack causes foe to be unable to act for 1 round.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html
Wis to AC (many references)
This is how Swordsage fans interpret him stepping aside all the time.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html
Crushing Weight of the Mountain: Stone Dragon 3 Stance
While you are in this stance, you gain the ability to constrict for 2d6 points of damage +1-1/2 times your Str bonus (if any). You can constrict an opponent that you grapple by making a successful grapple check.
Malack can learn this through the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats, and credits Tarquin for teaching it to him. This is my favorite part because it adds to the story between these two.

EDIT: I've had a theory since long ago that Tarquin has levels of Fighter and/or Monk for the bonus feats. It would help explan why Nale is multiclassed, and it would give him abilities that stretch outside the Swordsage. But it's difficult because it cuts into the highest level maneuvers he can use, and some of those might be good explanations for what's happening. Also, this theory is what made me give up on this project, since my command of every feat in the game is lacking.

This theory could also explain why Tarquin is on the Fighter class shirt.

[woweedd]

Okay, hear me out.

I said the new swag nixes the Blue Carbuncle.

Rich did not correct me.

I was wrong. The new swag supports the Blue Carbuncle.

How suspicious can I be that he did not explicitly say that Tarquin is not a Swordsage?

None. The phrasing, to me, reads as clear that he never intended to be a Swordsage.

[MultitudeMan]

Since it's coming up in other threads, this is intended to explain why some people, not necessarily you, think Tarquin has Swordsage tendencies. It covers only the four biggest points.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html
Counter Charge: Setting Sun 1 Counter
With a quick sidestep, you send a charging opponent sprawling.

Ballista Throw: Setting Sun 6 Strike
You grab your opponent and spin like a top, swinging him around before throwing him at your opponents like a bolt from a ballista.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html
Disrupting Blow: Diamond Mind 5 Strike
Successful attack causes foe to be unable to act for 1 round.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html
Wis to AC (many references)
This is how Swordsage fans interpret him stepping aside all the time.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html
Crushing Weight of the Mountain: Stone Dragon 3 Stance
While you are in this stance, you gain the ability to constrict for 2d6 points of damage +1-1/2 times your Str bonus (if any). You can constrict an opponent that you grapple by making a successful grapple check.
Malack can learn this through the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats, and credits Tarquin for teaching it to him. This is my favorite part because it adds to the story between these two.

EDIT: I've had a theory since long ago that Tarquin has levels of Fighter and/or Monk for the bonus feats. It would help explan why Nale is multiclassed, and it would give him abilities that stretch outside the Swordsage. But it's difficult because it cuts into the highest level maneuvers he can use, and some of those might be good explanations for what's happening. Also, this theory is what made me give up on this project, since my command of every feat in the game is lacking.

This theory could also explain why Tarquin is on the Fighter class shirt.

I missed this discussion the first time round, but I like all of this.

Edit: On another topic entirely, I just noticed that Minrah has 7 feats listed, but her class levels would only account for 5 thus far; also, Improved Bull Rush and Knockback have no evidence linked. Does anyone know why they were added, and if they are verified, do we need to update Minrah's total class level, even if we don't know the exact Fighter/Cleric split? Fighter 2+ / Cleric 9+, total level 12+ would seem the smallest change, but is of course speculative.

[Kastor]

I have an inventory question- before obtaining the psionic knife, was Belkar wielding nonmagical daggers?

[danielxcutter]

I vaguely remember something about him having a +4 and +2 dagger? Though the daggers he throws are probably non-magical.

[Kastor]

I vaguely remember something about him having a +4 and +2 dagger?

I dont suppose you know when he picked those up?

[danielxcutter]

It doesn't say, but the source for them in his entry is a forum post doing the math for how he was able to kill a wight in a turn or something? So probably at least since Don't Split the Party?

[Metastachydium]

I have an inventory question- before obtaining the psionic knife, was Belkar wielding nonmagical daggers?

And regardless whether the +4/+2 estimate is correct, there is the Oracle's "temporary magic dagger repository" comment, generally read as meaning he was stabbed with a magical dagger.

[Peelee]

And regardless whether the +4/+2 estimate is correct, there is the Oracle's "temporary magic dagger repository" comment, generally read as meaning he was stabbed with a magical dagger.

And alternately read that the Oracle is a magical repository for daggers.

Not that i read it that way, but i am amused at the possibility.

[Metastachydium]

And alternately read that the Oracle is a magical repository for daggers.

Not that i read it that way, but i am amused at the possibility.

There's just always some smart guy that brings that up. Hence generally, yes.

[Peelee]

There's just always some smart guy that brings that up. Hence generally, yes.

Hey, we're talking about a repository with second dagger in a world that has gnolls. You're lucky I'm only taking it in that direction.

[hroþila]

Both interpretations are wrong. The Oracle meant "dagger" as in "person who shears dags i.e. matted locks of wool from sheep"

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure that can be considered evidence, but wouldn't Shojo being able to move while wearing plate armor indicates that he has more than the 4 STR estimate given to him due to his age?

I mean, regular full plate is 50lbs, and nothing implies his armor is made to be lighter via magic or special material. It is also unlikely that it is not full plate.

Furthermore, Shojo has shown he was able to casually lift approximately half an humanoid skeleton, which isn't that light.

I'm not quite sure of how to estimate his STR based on that, though.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm not sure that can be considered evidence, but wouldn't Shojo being able to move while wearing plate armor indicates that he has more than the 4 STR estimate given to him due to his age?

I mean, regular full plate is 50lbs, and nothing implies his armor is made to be lighter via magic or special material. It is also unlikely that it is not full plate.

Furthermore, Shojo has shown he was able to casually lift approximately half an humanoid skeleton, which isn't that light.

I'm not quite sure of how to estimate his STR based on that, though.

I don't think there's sufficient reason to think Shojo wore full plate to let that assumption serve as a basis for further deductions.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, like Miko and Tarquin having mithral breastplates. Besides, he’s not exactly a frontline fighter, so he could probably get away with something that just looks appropriate.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, like Miko and Tarquin having mithral breastplates. Besides, he’s not exactly a frontline fighter, so he could probably get away with something that just looks appropriate.

Yep. For all we know, it could be glamered leafweave padded or silk swathes or whatever. That would even fit who Shojo is wonderfully.