Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[Tubercular Ox]

you constantly claim that he meticulously researches and looks up exactly how mechanics work

What are you imagining? Is it meticulous research to crack a book and make sure Bards can cast Mass Cure Moderate Wounds before giving it to Elan? According to the flowchart, if Rich had remembered Mass Cure Serious Wounds instead, that’s what would be there, even if he looked it up and found otherwise.

Other recent moments that would’ve been needlessly imperiled by the flowchart:

• Quintons have Wall of Force as an SLA. Is it at will, 3/day, or 1/day?
• Mimics have an adhesive mucus. Can it be dissolved?
• Name 8 out of 10 Beholder eye rays on your first try, go.
• Disenchanters are Menthol Camels with elephant trunks
• Froghemoths look like this

As for building a Swordsage and putting it in the story, that’s all we do here. We play D&D. We build PC’s as players, NPC’s as DM’s, and Rich has built dozens of characters and put them into his giant love letter to the game.

Even ignoring the possibility that Rich builds characters for fun, as many people do, if he was at all familiar with Tome of Battle, it would’ve taken him 20 minutes to “research” everything a Swordsage can do. There are tables for this. That Crushing Weight of the Mountain can constrict is in one of these tables. The book is designed to teach you this.

It would’ve been maybe 2 or 3 hours to read the flavor text and full rules for everything a Swordsage can do, and if he wanted to read the entire freaking book it would probably take him less than a day.

So I propose that this scene uses the Throw Anything feat, which is reprinted in the book.

Tarquin shows up on May 11th, 2010, and his last appearance is January 4th, 2014. Obviously Rich spent significant planning time ahead of this, but there is also significant space at the end of it where he would’ve had everything planned already. So let’s say one day would be 0.075% of that time, which he could’ve spent “researching” a major villain in a major plot arc. He doesn’t even have to do it all at once. Assuming he doesn’t read gaming books to relax, he could’ve easily gotten it done reading 10 minutes per week.

And if you still think that’s too much research, I remind you that he volunteered for a contest that required building a campaign setting that embraced everything WotC ever published. Everything. He was a runner-up.

All the other stuff I did? Spending a dozen hours researching different possible alternatives? That’s only necessary because I don’t know what Rich did and have to check everything. It’s actually an argument in favor of the Swordsage that Rich would have had to read only one book in order to build something different than anything already in the story, as opposed to a straight Fighter, who is either going to look a little like every other fighter, or require reading some of nearly every book in the line. I’m not looking to see if there’s a better feat, I’m looking to see if there’s a better book, and feats are just my gimmick for that.

So, tangent, you make the argument that Rich would probably backslide after you and your friends stopped policing his work, but that’s ridiculous. First off, there’s nowhere for Rich to backslide to. He has always been like this. Changes in things like his art style are in the direction of putting more work in, not less, and the complexity of the story has done nothing but go up as well. Believing he switched to a less complex way of creating characters doesn't make sense and would require more evidence than we have.

Second, the single most consistent message we get from Rich is that he does what he does despite the forums' attempts to interfere, of which your flowchart is actually a manifestation.

[Peelee]

it would’ve taken him 20 minutes to “research” everything a Swordsage can do.

This is what I'm talking about when I say that you refuse to accept what the author says. He either doesn't look the rules up, or if he looks them up and it's not correct, he doesn't care enough to change what he wrote. You insist that he would anyway. If you say the author would do one thing and the author himself says differently, I'm going to go ahead and think he is probably the one I should believe.

Other recent moments that would’ve been needlessly imperiled by the flowchart:

None of them would have been imperiled, because Stickworld is D&D until it isn't. If any of those moments don't follow the exact rules or descriptions of D&D, then we're in the "until it isn't" territory.

So I propose that this scene uses the Throw Anything feat, which is reprinted in the book.

Any weapon can be thrown, that feat only removes the -4 modifier.

So, tangent, you make the argument that Rich would probably backslide after you and your friends stopped policing his work

I don't even know where to begin with this. I never "policed his work", I don't consider everyone else on the forum my friends, and I have no idea what you mean by "backslide". This is a primary reason why I usually decline to engage with you, as it tends to get into you coming up with conclusions that I not only cannot relate to but also cannot even fathom how you arrived at them to start with. I'm out.

[danielmayer]

I'd support the interpretation of Elan being Bard 16+/Dashing Swordsman 1+
DS has already been verified enough to be a kind of Duelist without spellcasting progression.
Bard 16 gives only bonus spells on 6th level, as provided by Charisma 22+. As Elan has a Belt of Charisma, maybe we'll see a mysterious second spell of that level "today"?
edit: Ah, I see the SM VI in the list. So finally a true celestial sloth with amazing abilities waiting for us? ;)

[Timy]

I'd support the interpretation of Elan being Bard 16+/Dashing Swordsman 1+
DS has already been verified enough to be a kind of Duelist without spellcasting progression.
Bard 16 gives only bonus spells on 6th level, as provided by Charisma 22+. As Elan has a Belt of Charisma, maybe we'll see a mysterious second spell of that level "today"?
edit: Ah, I see the SM VI in the list. So finally a true celestial sloth with amazing abilities waiting for us? ;)

The 22+ listed already take into account the belt of charisma.

Saying that, it makes me wonder about Haley's comment about the 18 charisma of Elan. At level 13, he had only one ability score increase since the comment (at level 12) which could not account for his 5th level bonus spell (needing CHA 20+).

Could we deduce that he was already level 16 (bard 13, DS 3+) ?

And so today, he would be bard 16+ DS 3+ !!

[Ephemera]

I think these two discussions have a few things in common.

Like others have pointed out, the problem with this reasoning is that we fall in the "or the giant is using an houserule".

quick reminder of the FAQ in the OP :

IIRC, absolutely nothing in comic shows that the dashing swordsman prestige class advances casting level of any sort. More than that, (again IIRC) Julio never used any kind of spell in-comic.
And on the other hand, we even have an instance where Elan say that at least in the regard of spell known, he had to take a bard level to relearn a spell.

So in my opinion, for the purpose of this thread, we have to consider that Ethan is a level 16+ Bard with the usual "or the Giant used an houserule"

The situation is different though, because it's one thing to say that we try not to use home brew as an explanation. In this case, we know for a fact that home brew is in play, and it's entirely different to try to explain things without home brew and to speculate on what the home brew contains. Since we 100% know he has a level in a prestige class and it's not unreasonable that the first level of dashing swordsman might advance bard spellcasting, I think the appropriate entry here is probably "Bard 14+, Dashing Swordsman 1+, Total Bard Spellcasting Levels 16+" since in theory either Bard 14/DS 2, or 15/1, or 16+/1 might work, depending on how Dashing Swordsman works.

Now, to the thornier debate (although really it seems to me that Ox is pretty much on an island here arguing for something no one else is buying):

I'm all for taking the Giant at his word, but he didn't actually say Tarquin is not a swordsage. He said that he wasn't aware that people were theorizing that Tarquin was a swordsage. Now, if he had intended Tarquin to be a swordsage, it would be reasonable for him to assume that people would theorize that Tarquin was a swordsage, but assuming something to be the case and knowing it to be the case are not the same thing. It seems to me that it is theoretically possible for this statement to be true and for Tarquin to be a swordsage.

I realize that this is getting into "that depends on what the definition of 'is' is" territory (and yah, I'm probably dating myself with that reference), but I think this is actually important. We take the word of Giant on actual stats/classes to be fact, but I don't think even "I wasn't thinking of Tarquin as a swordsage" is actually any evidence at all.

What the flowchart that Pelee posted means is that the Giant doesn't care, but the important thing to remember here (and the source of a lot of frustrated posts when people forget this) is that the comic, as conceived, doesn't actually operate under anything like RAW of 3.5. We therefore aren't in the business of figuing out what the Giant most likely has in mind, we are in the business of determining--as best as we are able through necessarily somewhat vague and occasionally contradictory rules--what set of character traits best explain what we see on panel.

More precisely, we are in the business of determining what stats can be reasonably inferred from what we see on panel, no more, no less.

In general, as Rich has gotten less interested in rules over the last 20 years (?!!), this has gotten a lot harder to do. The panels get less detailed about mechanics, and Rich no longer tells us what's going on mechanically. For this reason, I am personally all in favor of coming up with some sort of system where we link to past debates or include gray or spoilered "most likely but not meeting thread evidentiary standards" or some other system that someone who cares more and/or is smarter than me comes up with.

That said, there's a very good reason we didn't set out originally to determine most likely stats (as opposed to stats that can be clearly shown), and it's because, as this debate and others have demonstrated over the years "most likely" is grounds for incredible amounts of unresolvable differences, so the less arbitrary and strict we make the rules, the more confusion and disagreement we get on the ground.

[Timy]

The situation is different though, because it's one thing to say that we try not to use home brew as an explanation. In this case, we know for a fact that home brew is in play, and it's entirely different to try to explain things without home brew and to speculate on what the home brew contains. Since we 100% know he has a level in a prestige class and it's not unreasonable that the first level of dashing swordsman might advance bard spellcasting, I think the appropriate entry here is probably "Bard 14+, Dashing Swordsman 1+, Total Bard Spellcasting Levels 16+" since in theory either Bard 14/DS 2, or 15/1, or 16+/1 might work, depending on how Dashing Swordsman works.

And so, since Elan took a level in DS, we can basically put about everything Elan does in the big box of "Dashing Swordsman 1".

Why would this Homebrew Prestige Class will not have a Spell list with mass cure serious wound at the 1st level ?

If you begin to put that the Dashing Swordsman advance casting of any kind while Julio who has 10 level in it NEVER in comic use a spell. I can doubt any other explanation and we go nowhere.

[Tubercular Ox]

And so, since Elan took a level in DS, we can basically put about everything Elan does in the big box of "Dashing Swordsman 1".

With malice towards none, and in the spirit of trying to figure what's going on, I think maybe the reasonable doubt standard is hurting the thread. If there are multiple options and none of them can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, stuff like this happens. It doesn't have to happen, but it does.

That being said, I think Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ (Bard caster level 16+) is at least transparent about the dilemma and costs hardly anything spacewise.

[Timy]

With malice towards none, and in the spirit of trying to figure what's going on, I think maybe the reasonable doubt standard is hurting the thread. If there are multiple options and none of them can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, stuff like this happens. It doesn't have to happen, but it does.

That being said, I think Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ (Bard caster level 16+) is at least transparent about the dilemma and costs hardly anything spacewise.

Nope, it negates the possibility of DS to have its own spell list with Mass Cure Moderate Wound as a 1st level spell (or why not an SLA usable X times a day).

[InvisibleBison]

If you begin to put that the Dashing Swordsman advance casting of any kind while Julio who has 10 level in it NEVER in comic use a spell. I can doubt any other explanation and we go nowhere.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that we never see Julio cast a spell doesn't mean that he can't, it just means that he doesn't. You can't deduce anything about what the prestige class does from him not doing something (leaving aside the possibility that it may advance spellcasting but not require it, which is uncommon but not unprecedented, I think).

[danielxcutter]

With malice towards none, and in the spirit of trying to figure what's going on, I think maybe the reasonable doubt standard is hurting the thread. If there are multiple options and none of them can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, stuff like this happens. It doesn't have to happen, but it does.

That being said, I think Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ (Bard caster level 16+) is at least transparent about the dilemma and costs hardly anything spacewise.

Honestly I like this.

[Tubercular Ox]

Nope, it negates the possibility of DS to have its own spell list with Mass Cure Moderate Wound as a 1st level spell (or why not an SLA usable X times a day).

I feel like there should be a way to distinguish arguments people believe in from arguments people submit as counterexamples, in which case I can say that the dilemma is between two ideas supported by different people in the thread, not between every valid option, but with enough bad will that can be abused, can't it? :(

So I guess the next option is to buck up and explore why some options seem sillier than others. Personally I'm a huge fan of the idea that Rich is telling a story and that each panel builds on the context of every previous panel. We don't think Elan took a level of any prestige class that advances casting (other than Dashing Swordsman) because there's no previous context in the story for that. Having taken one level of Dashing Swordsman is enough context to believe he would take another level of Dashing Swordsman.

Now, I swear I came here by accident, so I'm signing off after saying this and y'all can gripe at me all you want, but the context we have for introducing new abilities is that Rich warns us, which happens to line up with my instincts about Dashing Swordsman: I don't think Rich would have demonstrated new Bard abilities acquired through Dashing Swordsman levels except that he warned us in some way that he was taking Dashing Swordsman levels, because the point of taking Dashing Swordsman levels would be the opportunity to introduce new Dashing Swordsman abilities to the story, and there would have to be foreshadowing for that.

So I guess I'm agreeing with whoever said we should just beef up the "*or Rich is using a house rule" clause to include house rules that Rich has explicitly told us about, and mark it as Bard 16+/Dashing Swordsman 1+

Oh, wait, that's you. Okay, you sold me.

I'd still support Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ (Bard Caster Level 16+) if it ended arguments, though.

EDIT: Or, wait, what has Rich told us? He told us Dashing Swordsman exists, that it gives +Cha to hit, that it lets Elan smash through glass. He hasn't told us any other abilities it has, so we're still in "house rule he hasn't told us about" territory.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

But it is bad storytelling. I have no idea how that translates to what this thread does, but it should, somehow.

[Reboot]

The situation is different though, because it's one thing to say that we try not to use home brew as an explanation. In this case, we know for a fact that home brew is in play, and it's entirely different to try to explain things without home brew and to speculate on what the home brew contains. Since we 100% know he has a level in a prestige class and it's not unreasonable that the first level of dashing swordsman might advance bard spellcasting, I think the appropriate entry here is probably "Bard 14+, Dashing Swordsman 1+, Total Bard Spellcasting Levels 16+" since in theory either Bard 14/DS 2, or 15/1, or 16+/1 might work, depending on how Dashing Swordsman works.

Well, #647 at least strongly suggests that Elan's next (at the time) DS level does not advance spellcasting, hence why he announces he took the bard level instead. At best, it's some sort of alternate-level thing, possibly more likely it plain doesn't at all.

[dmc91356]

Well, #648 at least strongly suggests that Elan's next (at the time) DS level does not advance spellcasting, hence why he announces he took the bard level instead. At best, it's some sort of alternate-level thing, possibly more likely it plain doesn't at all.

I think you are off by one strip. The discussion on leveling up happened in 647.

[Timy]

I think you are off by one strip. The discussion on leveling up happened in 647.

But nevertheless, the argument is still valid.

And yes, my argument about the SLA granting MCMW was done in bad faith to show were we could be going with the "but it could advance spellcasting every 2 levels".

The facts we know about DS are :
- It is homebrew
- It conditionaly adds damage on melee fighting based on CHA
- It adds utilitarian bonuses (like the glass thing)
- at least one of its level does not advance bard spellcasting

(Feel free to add any information, I guess it would be usefull to have a very complete list)

Other things I find noteworthy about the DS :
Julio being a level 10 DS does never cast any spell on-screen (even when fighting a very powerfull opponent).
It is described as a duelist class.

And so my conclusion: it could be possible that DS advance Bard casting in some of its level but we don't have the smallest hint that it would do that while we do have some information that at least one of its level does not.
So yes, I repeat myself : Elan not being a level 16+ bard and still able to cast a 6th level spell is deeply in "or Rich used an homebrew" territory.

[Metastachydium]

At any rate, he can't possibly be Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ as listed, because that doesn't add up to the required 16+ however we may look at it.

Regardless, Elan's current level in the thread opener of Bard 14+ /Dashing Swordsman 1+ definitely needs to be updated to at least Bard 15+, Dashing Swordsman 1+, right? How does that update happen? (I'm worried the current Malack debate might overshadow it.)

That being said, I think Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ (Bard caster level 16+) is at least transparent about the dilemma and costs hardly anything spacewise.

15+/1+. Come on, folks!

(Feel free to add any information, I guess it would be usefull to have a very complete list)

Armour interferes with its features.

[Tubercular Ox]

And yes, my argument about the SLA granting MCMW was done in bad faith

No. You provided a counterexample. It has to be outrageous because that's what forces people to reconsider. It was not in bad faith and I am sorry that my meandering style led you to think I was saying that about you.

15+/1+. Come on, folks!

14/2 if Dashing Swordsman offers casting every level
16/1 if it's not at all.

So 14+/1+ (Caster 16+)

Unless there's another thing pointing to 15 Bard? I'm not the best at this.

But I've been thinking about what makes something likely to me. I've noticed I prefer explanations that portray Rich as straightforward and honest. If Rich is being straightforward and honest, then he wants us to think he's straightforward and honest. But if Rich is being devious, he still wants us to think he's straightforward and honest, at least until the reveal.

So if we footnoted every entry in the OP with *or Rich is being devious, similar to how we now footnote every entry with *or Rich is using a house rule, then it looks win-win. Either the OP is correct, or it provides valuable cover for spoiler-y things Rich doesn't want revealed yet.

Using new Bard spells to indicate new Bard levels would be straightforward and honest. If Rich used Dashing Swordsman levels to advance Bard casting, then either he's going to tell us later, and right now the setup is that that would be a reveal, or he's not, in which case it doesn't matter what we put in the OP because we can't be contradicted. So why not pitch Rich as straightforward and honest, when we have the choice?

EDIT: I still think 14+/1+ (16+) is a succinct and transparent solution, I'm just trying to think ahead to other arguments.

EDIT 2: Or footnote it *or there will be a reveal later. That makes it about our feelings instead of Rich's feelings.

[Timy]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that we never see Julio cast a spell doesn't mean that he can't, it just means that he doesn't. You can't deduce anything about what the prestige class does from him not doing something (leaving aside the possibility that it may advance spellcasting but not require it, which is uncommon but not unprecedented, I think).

I still have not answered to that :

You are absolutely right. My point is not at all that it is impossible for DS to advance spellcasting. My point is that we actually have not a single hint that it does and we do have some hints that it doesn't.

Being homebrew, it could actually do about anything (when you see some of the cheese that is actually printed...). And advancing bard casting every 2 levels is just one of those things. If we stop listing things just because there is this possibility while actually nothing in-comic hint that, we can list nothing.

[Doug Lampert]

I still have not answered to that :

You are absolutely right. My point is not at all that it is impossible for DS to advance spellcasting. My point is that we actually have not a single hint that it does and we do have some hints that it doesn't.

Being homebrew, it could actually do about anything (when you see some of the cheese that is actually printed...). And advancing bard casting every 2 levels is just one of those things. If we stop listing things just because there is this possibility while actually nothing in-comic hint that, we can list nothing.

We assume no homebrew except where homebrew is explicitely or clearly present. This has no effect at all on the vast majority of the thread.

Homebrew is explicitely present in Elan's class levels. Advancing casting at only some levels is quite common in prestige classes. It is not in any way an unreasonable thing for a class to do. We effectively never see paladins casting, and we KNOW they have casting. Elan routinely goes large numbers of strips without casting. Scoundrel not casting in the handful of strips he's on scene is exceedingly weak evidence that he can't cast.

It's perfectly reasonable to think that DS might advance casting at some levels. It is not perfectly reasonable to assume it grants MCLW at level 1 (as even you seem to agree). One of these assumptions is within a reasonable doubt, the other is not.

A reasonable doubt standard says not to list anything we do not know beyond a reasonable doubt. There is in fact reasonable doubt about the DS and casting as there are MANY prestige classes that do exactly what DS would need to do to allow a lower bard level than 16.

[Tubercular Ox]

A reasonable doubt standard says not to list anything we do not know beyond a reasonable doubt. There is in fact reasonable doubt about the DS and casting as there are MANY prestige classes that do exactly what DS would need to do to allow a lower bard level than 16.

Were I Timy I wouldn't be trying to invoke the reasonable doubt standard. I'd hammer this one:

For this purpose, we assume that the comic strictly follows the 3.5E D&D rules. We are aware that The Giant has stated that he doesn't always follow the rules, because his goal is to write a story and not to write session reports from a D&D campaign. Nevertheless, in this thread we assume the rules are being followed anyway, and see what stats, feats, and skills could explain what happens. Essentially, that means we're taking the rules side of the comic more seriously than its author does; if you like, you can assume a little footnote on every factoid of this thread that says "* or The Giant used a houserule". Why? Well, because it's Geekery. If Star Trek fans can do it, then so can we

If Dashing Swordsman advances casting, that would be a house rule that Rich introduced. ITT, we assume Rich is using 3.5E D&D rules, even when we know he sometimes doesn't. Since the claim that Dashing Swordsman levels could provide casting can be included by adding "*or The Giant used a houserule", then it doesn't need to be included in the OP at all, because it is automatically included in everything we could possibly post.

But even if we pretend that stuff we make up whole cloth isn't a house rule because we attached it to a different house rule Rich has already confirmed, my question is why Dashing Swordsman is considered superior to Lyric Thaumaturge, or any other prestige class that also advances full casting. I'm gonna bring up that context thing again and suggest there's no context to suggest Elan took Lyric Thaumaturge, just like there's no context to suggest that Dashing Swordsman advances casting.

You're basically saying that evidence could appear in the future to settle the issue, and that future-evidence creates reasonable doubt. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if it never happens, if we never see Elan demonstrate a single new Dashing Swordsman ability until past the end of the comic, I would not feel like the smart guy if I'd been arguing that new Bard spells might represent new Dashing Swordsman levels, with no additional evidence. Nor would I feel especially dumb if I interpreted new Bard spells as new Bard levels and then had to retract what I said when Rich told us otherwise. You fooled me, Rich! Good job!

That being said, I still support 14+/1+ (16+), I just don't like what this thread does to "reasonable doubt."

[Metastachydium]

14/2 if Dashing Swordsman offers casting every level
16/1 if it's not at all.

So 14+/1+ (Caster 16+)

Ah, okay. Carry on.

[Doug Lampert]

If Dashing Swordsman advances casting, that would be a house rule that Rich introduced. ITT, we assume Rich is using 3.5E D&D rules, even when we know he sometimes doesn't. Since the claim that Dashing Swordsman levels could provide casting can be included by adding "*or The Giant used a houserule", then it doesn't need to be included in the OP at all, because it is automatically included in everything we could possibly post.

If dashing swordsman does not advance casting 20 caster levels per dashing swordsman level, that is equally a house rule, because the entire class and everything about it is a Rich made up houserule.

We can ask what a reasonable houserule is (20 caster levels per level is not, nor is MCLW at level 1), or we can say NOTHING about Elan's levels, but leaving out houseruled stuff is outright impossible the moment you say Elan has Dashing Swordsman 1+.

We do not have the option of a non-houseruled Elan, it does not exist and can not exist. Again, all we have is reasonable or unreasonable houserules.

Are you arguing for putting Elan's level and class and abilities all as ??? (Impossible to say, because maybe taking DS levels retroactively retrains his previous Bard levels to something else), or are you willing to agree that Elan's build needs to take into account reasonable houserules because Elan explicitely has a houseruled class.

We can ask, what could that class reasonably do? Or we can say: "It is completely impossible to know anything whatsoever about Elan's build".

I do not see any third alternative.

If we maintain that DS advances casting is an inadmissiable houserule, then so is DS does not advance casting level an inadmissable houserule. Both would be houserules and advance and does not advance casting are both reasonable alternatives with plenty of precedent. A non-houseruled Elan is a ship that has sailed.

[Timy]

Sorry but I don't see anything in the OP that talk about "admissible house rule".

What you are trying to do is guess what is homebrew.
My point is that the thread explicitly try to explain the comic by 3.5 rules except when explicitly told otherwise. For this purpose we should not try to guess what does and doesn't do DS but use what is said it does and explain the rest with 3.5 rules when possible.

[Tubercular Ox]

If we maintain that DS advances casting is an inadmissiable houserule, then so is DS does not advance casting level an inadmissable houserule. Both would be houserules and advance and does not advance casting are both reasonable alternatives with plenty of precedent. A non-houseruled Elan is a ship that has sailed.

I'm sorry, what? You advance two contradictory propositions, both with zero evidence, and insist this empowers you to make demands about Elan's build?

This is textbook unreasonable doubt. It's rooted in hypothesized and unpresented evidence. I've changed my mind, 16+/1+ is the right answer because letting arguments like this dictate the discussion is poisonous. If we have to update the OP with a paragraph about how decisions are made using the evidence available at the time, and Rich can introduce new evidence at any time, we should.

[danielxcutter]

Separate from the actual standards this thread uses, it would make sense for the Order to be about that high level, aside from the dwarves and maybe Roy. I keep underestimating Elan because he acts so goofy even now, but he's had three separate character development arcs of his own, and he's not even that badly optimized by the comic's standards.

[Unoriginal]

Separate from the actual standards this thread uses, it would make sense for the Order to be about that high level, aside from the dwarves and maybe Roy. I keep underestimating Elan because he acts so goofy even now, but he's had three separate character development arcs of his own, and he's not even that badly optimized by the comic's standards.

Elan has by far the most optimized build build in the Order. Only Roy post-Weapon-of-Legacy-awakening comes close.

Optimization isn't the same as power, though, nor does it means knowing how to use what you have.

[Peelee]

Elan has by far the most optimized build build in the Order. Only Roy post-Weapon-of-Legacy-awakening comes close.

Interesting. How would you classify Durkon as less optimized than Roy or Elan?

[danielxcutter]

Sword-and-board is significantly less powerful than two-handing a weapon, and he doesn’t appear to have taken Quicken Spell despite most definitely having enough slots at high enough level to make use of it.

[Peelee]

Sword-and-board is significantly less powerful than two-handing a weapon, and he doesn’t appear to have taken Quicken Spell despite most definitely having enough slots at high enough level to make use of it.

Clerics aren't as powerful melee as fighters regardless, (which they more than make up for by being capable of front-line melee while also being full casters) and Quicken Spell isn't absolutely required for spellcasting.

[Tubercular Ox]

Elan has by far the most optimized build build in the Order. Only Roy post-Weapon-of-Legacy-awakening comes close.

Optimization isn't the same as power, though, nor does it means knowing how to use what you have.

What is optimization? In your opinion, in the context of this one post.

Clerics aren't as powerful melee as fighters regardless, (which they more than make up for by being capable of front-line melee while also being full casters)

So Durkon made a poor choice, but that's not unoptimized because it wasn't a focus of his build?

Quicken Spell isn't absolutely required for spellcasting.

So Durkon made a poor choice, but that's not unoptimized because optimization isn't required?

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around choosing not to be optimized not being unoptimized because optimization is a choice. Surely you are optimized when you choose optimization and unoptimized when you do not choose optimization?

[Unoriginal]

Interesting. How would you classify Durkon as less optimized than Roy or Elan?

Well for one, Durkon spent most of the comic focusing on healing spells. While they're an important part of the Cleric's toolbox, focusing on them is far from the optimal use of spells.

I don't recall Durkon ever summoning any beings to help before his death, for example.

Clerics aren't as powerful melee as fighters regardless, (which they more than make up for by being capable of front-line melee while also being full casters) and Quicken Spell isn't absolutely required for spellcasting.

Certainly, but optimization isn't "what is absolutely required".

There's no doubt that Durkon is very effective, but optimization is doing the best possible, not doing just good.