Hilarious things you've found in RAW?

[ShurikVch]

Stone Colossus is decent swimmer: with Str 70, it got +30 to Swim checks, and Swim skill isn't trained-only.
Sure, it's not enough to "Swim up Waterfall" - but most of other tricks are completely available (including swimming at full speed as a Move Action)
So what if Stone Colossus "weighing at least 375,000 pounds"?..

[InvisibleBison]

Stone Colossus is decent swimmer: with Str 70, it got +30 to Swim checks, and Swim skill isn't trained-only.
Sure, it's not enough to "Swim up Waterfall" - but most of other tricks are completely available (including swimming at full speed as a Move Action)
So what if Stone Colossus "weighing at least 375,000 pounds"?..

Maybe it's made of pumice? Sure, the creation instructions say it's made from "hard stone, such as granite", but it also requires polymorph any object.

[Darg]

The ability to float is about displacement, not weight. To be a little gruesome it's why the average drowned person sinks, but when the body starts to decay it'll bloat and float. Swimming displaces water to move you or keep you afloat. With enough strength, speed, endurance, and proper technique a 100ft by 1ft rod of lead with two 1in wings could probably float on air.

[ShurikVch]

Maybe it's made of pumice? Sure, the creation instructions say it's made from "hard stone, such as granite", but it also requires polymorph any object.

Checked the article in the Epic Level Handbook: actually, it weighs "only" 250,000 pounds, and 40'x40'x70'
With 112,000 cubic feet and 250,000 pounds - it's denser than Osmium (over x1.5)

The ability to float is about displacement, not weight.

Yes, I know.

To be a little gruesome it's why the average drowned person sinks, but when the body starts to decay it'll bloat and float. Swimming displaces water to move you or keep you afloat.

Actually, most persons are don't even sunk at all (alive or dead) - no efforts to stay afloat required
(But bloating corpses are occasionally even brought to the surface weights which their murderers used to "keep 'em down")

With enough strength, speed, endurance, and proper technique a 100ft by 1ft rod of lead with two 1in wings could probably float on air.

I doubt it - sounds like not enough leverage
But - if you have calculations, it would be interesting to check it...

[Vaern]

Checked the article in the Epic Level Handbook: actually, it weighs "only" 250,000 pounds, and 40'x40'x70'
With 112,000 cubic feet and 250,000 pounds - it's denser than Osmium (over x1.5)

Your math is off by a few orders of magnitude. I think you've divided the weight by 112 cu ft instead of 112,000.
Osmium has a density of about 1,400 lb/cu ft, and the measurements given here would result in the colossus having a density of only 2.2 lb/cu ft.
112,000 cubic feet of something that's 1.5x as dense as Osmium would be roughly 235 million pounds.

Plus, the space a creature occupies on the battle grid doesn't necessarily reflect its volume. A human occupies a 5x5 square and might be 6 feet tall, but you wouldn't say that this character has a volume of 150 cubic feet. An actual human has a volume closer to 2-3 cubic feet. And, since a colossus is described as being often carved as an exact likeness of its creator, we can assume that the colossus has exact human shape and proportions to make some rough calculations.
If we multiply a human's proportions by 12 in each direction, we end up with a volume for a 72-foot tall colossus being roughly 2.5 x 12 x 12 x 12 = 4,320 cubic feet.
250,000 lb / 4,320 cu ft = 58 lb/cu ft.
Granite's actual density is about 170 lb/cu ft, so even after drastically decreasing the volume of the colossus it's still surprisingly lightweight at just over a third of granite's real-world density.
Water has a density of 62.4 lb/cu ft, so the colossus is less dense than water and would float.

[ShurikVch]

Your math is off by a few orders of magnitude. I think you've divided the weight by 112 cu ft instead of 112,000.

No, I divided all right
My mistake was much more boring: I misplaced my decimal commas when consulted the density table, so result got about x1000 times more impressive

But now we have the directly opposite problem: while Stone Colossus not so dense (and, certainly, should be able to float) - from what, exactly, it's made of?
Even lightest pumice is almost x10 heavier! (More like ~8.39 times, but still...)

(And yes - I know creatures not always occupy all of their "Space". I used it when presumed Stone Colossus was actually dense - since it have DR - because it would be not just easier to calculate, but also make the final result lower. Now, when we see it's, actually, ultra-light for its size and material - how much smaller of a space should it be for more "real" results?)

[InvisibleBison]

But now we have the directly opposite problem: while Stone Colossus not so dense (and, certainly, should be able to float) - from what, exactly, it's made of?
Even lightest pumice is almost x10 heavier! (More like ~8.39 times, but still...)

The simplest explanation is that it's hollow.

[Vaern]

The simplest explanation is that it's hollow.

That would be reasonable if it wasn't described as being chiseled from a solid block which, all things considered, doesn't way that much more than the final product.

[Promethean]

That would be reasonable if it wasn't described as being chiseled from a solid block which, all things considered, doesn't way that much more than the final product.

I geuss the wizards need to use a very specific form of magical granite that's less dense than water.

Good luck finding that.

[Metastachydium]

That would be reasonable if it wasn't described as being chiseled from a solid block which, all things considered, doesn't way that much more than the final product.

Perhaps there's some chiseling done inside the block by Reduce Person-ed Kobolds (Slight Build!) as well.

[St Fan]

This spell has some funny implications -- specifically, its third option:

Manifest Life

Necromancy
Level: Blackguard 4, Cleric 5,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched, then living creature or undead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous/1 minute or until discharged; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

To employ this spell, you must succeed on a melee touch attack against a living creature. If you do so, your touch deals 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 15d6). This damage represents actual life force that you take from the subject, resulting in a ball of positive energy you hold in your hand. You can use this ball of positive energy in one of three ways.

• You can, in any following round, touch yourself or any other living creature with that positive energy, as a standard action. The living creature absorbs the energy, healing as many points of damage as you dealt to the initial subject, up to the new subject's full normal hit points.
• You can use the ball of positive energy to make a melee touch against an undead creature, dealing the same amount of damage you initially dealt.
• You can use it to power a turn undead attempt. The next turning attempt you make, so long as it occurs before the spell's duration expires, does not count against your daily limit.

The ball of positive energy dissipates in 1 minute if not used, and it vanishes immediately if you use your hand for some other purpose.

It is notably a Blackguard spell. Blackguards don't get the ability to turn undead -- they get command/rebuke undead at 3rd level. But command/rebuke use negative energy, thus the spell is clear that it grants only turn undead, since it is powered by positive energy.

This means not only a Blackguard, but also an evil Cleric who shouldn't be granted this power, are able to turn undead with the spell. Worse, any class than can co-opt the spell (Ur-Priest, Chameleon, Archivist...) can use it to get a turn undead attempt, again without any alignment consideration.

[Lord Torath]

The heights and weights of things in the rule books always amuse me. The Disks of Mishakal from Dragonlance are described as being 160 disks of pure platinum, 18 inches in diameter and 1/16th of an inch thick each. That much platinum weighs 1,970 lbs. The War of the Lance book says they are surprisingly light at 15 lbs. If they were made of water, they'd weigh 92 lbs. So these plates are 1/6th as dense as water. Speaking of drowning, these are an excellent flotation device!

Fun fact: people are roughly as dense as water (high fat people a bit less dense, high muscle people a bit more dense, but most of us are just slightly less dense than water), so that's a quick and dirty method of determining how many cubit feet of volume someone takes up: divide their weight by 62.5 lbs/ft³.

[Darg]

This spell has some funny implications -- specifically, its third option:




It is notably a Blackguard spell. Blackguards don't get the ability to turn undead -- they get command/rebuke undead at 3rd level. But command/rebuke use negative energy, thus the spell is clear that it grants only turn undead, since it is powered by positive energy.

This means not only a Blackguard, but also an evil Cleric who shouldn't be granted this power, are able to turn undead with the spell. Worse, any class than can co-opt the spell (Ur-Priest, Chameleon, Archivist...) can use it to get a turn undead attempt, again without any alignment consideration.

Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead.

Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead.

Regardless of the effect, the general term for the activity is "turning." When attempting to exercise their divine control over these creatures, characters make turning checks.

Not to be a stickler or anything, but when the rules literally tell you that rebuking, commanding, or bolstering are also called turning, it's really hard to say they are separate abilities.

If we really want to be technical, anything that says it requires the the specific ability "turn undead" doesn't work with a cleric as their ability is "Turn or Rebuke Undead." The reverse is also true with a feat like Divine Cleansing which specifically wants the cleric's ability, not the paladin's or blackguard's.

[St Fan]

Not to be a stickler or anything, but when the rules literally tell you that rebuking, commanding, or bolstering are also called turning, it's really hard to say they are separate abilities.

If we really want to be technical, anything that says it requires the the specific ability "turn undead" doesn't work with a cleric as their ability is "Turn or Rebuke Undead." The reverse is also true with a feat like Divine Cleansing which specifically wants the cleric's ability, not the paladin's or blackguard's.

Not saying you are wrong, but in this case the spell specifically create a "ball of positive energy". Rebuking, commanding or bolstering undead might be conflated with "turning" most of the time, but they've always required negative energy, not positive. That's what make this spell break the usual limitations.

[Darg]

Not saying you are wrong, but in this case the spell specifically create a "ball of positive energy". Rebuking, commanding or bolstering undead might be conflated with "turning" most of the time, but they've always required negative energy, not positive. That's what make this spell break the usual limitations.

The spell doesn't say you are channeling the ball of positive energy. Just like how positive energy isn't guaranteed to heal the living or harm the undead, there isn't really a conflict here when all it's doing is facilitating the attempt in a way that doesn't use up one of your daily uses. How it works in setting is up to you just like how damage reduction isn't just preventing damage, but could also represent instant regeneration. Now if it said something like it could only be used when channeling positive energy to turn undead it would then be too specific to ignore.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The spell doesn't say you are channeling the ball of positive energy. Just like how positive energy isn't guaranteed to heal the living or harm the undead, there isn't really a conflict here when all it's doing is facilitating the attempt in a way that doesn't use up one of your daily uses. How it works in setting is up to you just like how damage reduction isn't just preventing damage, but could also represent instant regeneration. Now if it said something like it could only be used when channeling positive energy to turn undead it would then be too specific to ignore.

Indeed, strict RAW there are negative energy spells that can damage undead. But that's what makes it funny/dysfunctional. In universe, how turning works is channeling positive energy, how rebuking works is channelling negative energy. And negative energy heals undead because they are powered by it through a conduit to the Negative Energy Plane. In this case, either you interpret it in the way that a Blackguard can just use people's positive energy to turn undead, or you interpret it in the way that Blackguards can use positive energy to rebuke undead, with both being pretty funny to imagine.

[Tzardok]

Or you interprete it as you are only powering your own turn undead ability, i.e. if you can't turn undead already, you can't use the third rider.
Don't forget, good clerics can cast the spell too.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Or you interprete it as you are only powering your own turn undead ability, i.e. if you can't turn undead already, you can't use the third rider.
Don't forget, good clerics can cast the spell too.

They can? Oh, in that case your interpretation is probably the right one.

[Tzardok]

They can? Oh, in that case your interpretation is probably the right one.

I mean, I don't have the book, so I can't say for sure that it isn't located in some "only evil character spells here" chapter, but nothing about the spell itself says that good clericcs can't use it. It doesn't have the Evil descriptor after all.

[ShurikVch]

Note: while usually "Turn"=="Good" and "Rebuke"=="Evil", in some cases alignment just don't matter

Examples:
Bone Talisman is not a [Good] spell
Kin Mastery feat (Dragon #305) allow you to chose Turn or Rebuke; choice is 1-time, but otherwise - free (and not depends on alignment)
Lumi (Monster Manual III) clerics are always turning undead - regardless of their alignment
Rebuking Breath (Spell Compendium) is not an [Evil] spell
The "Aztec Mythos IV" article (Dragon #358) includes NE deity of the Sun, whose Clerics are always channeling Positive Energy - regardless of their alignment
Xag-Ya turning undead - despite being always Neutral

[Inevitability]

Note: while usually "Turn"=="Good" and "Rebuke"=="Evil", in some cases alignment just don't matter

Examples:
Bone Talisman is not a [Good] spell
Kin Mastery feat (Dragon #305) allow you to chose Turn or Rebuke; choice is 1-time, but otherwise - free (and not depends on alignment)
Lumi (Monster Manual III) clerics are always turning undead - regardless of their alignment
Rebuking Breath (Spell Compendium) is not an [Evil] spell
The "Aztec Mythos IV" article (Dragon #358) includes NE deity of the Sun, whose Clerics are always channeling Positive Energy - regardless of their alignment
Xag-Ya turning undead - despite being always Neutral

An Evil Mystic with the Sun domain will also be able to use Turn Undead, and a Death Delver can be Good and gets Rebuke Undead.

[hamishspence]

It is notably a Blackguard spell.

In my copy of the book it's a Cleric/Paladin spell. It has a counterpart, the Manifest Death spell (Cleric 5/Blackguard 4) - in which you touch an undead creature and absorb its negative energy to power rebuke attempts, to do damage, or to heal undead.

Basically the two spells are like mirror images of one another - one positive, one negative.



Neither spell has an alignment subtype though.

[Darg]

In my copy of the book it's a Cleric/Paladin spell. It has a counterpart, the Manifest Death spell (Cleric 5/Blackguard 4) - in which you touch an undead creature and absorb its negative energy to power rebuke attempts, to do damage, or to heal undead.

Basically the two spells are like mirror images of one another - one positive, one negative.



Neither spell has an alignment subtype though.

That makes more sense being a misprint.

[hamishspence]

Still raises the question of what happens when a cleric with access to only Rebuke Undead uses Manifest Life, or a cleric with access to only Turn Undead uses Manifest Death.

Personally I'd say that since it doesn't count towards the cleric's "turn limit" or "rebuke limit" it grants the "X attempt" regardless of the cleric's actual channelling ability.

So if an Evil cleric wants to destroy undead - they can do so with this spell if they are powerful enough - and similarly if a powerful Good but pragmatic cleric wants to command weak undead with Manifest Death, they can.


While it' might be a bit homebrewy - I'd rule that non-clerics with access to cleric spells "count as a cleric of the relevant level" for the purpose of the spell - it grants the turning or rebuking ability (one "free attempt").

So a Red Dragon which has learned either spell, counts as a cleric of their Sorcerer level when they use either spell to Turn or Rebuke.

[Tzardok]

I disagree. The formulation makes it pretty clear that you actually need to be able to turn undead on your own to use it this way: "The next turning attempt you make, so long as it occurs before the spell's duration expires, does not count against your daily limit." If you can't make a turning attempt on your own, you can't do one with this positive orb.

The formulation "You can use it to power a turn undead attempt" also supports that. Imagine we replaced in the spell description "ball of positive energy" with "can of gasoline" and "You can use it to power a turn undead attempt" with "You can use it to power a car". To do that, you still need to actually have a car. You can't just pour gas into a nonexistent car and drive around. With the positive ball it's the same.

[Thurbane]

Not sure if I mentioned this in the past, but something I find funny.

Iaijutsu Focus is not a trained only skill - so every PC, NPC and monster that draws a weapon and hits a flat footed enemy should be allowed a Cha check for extra damage, despite possibly being completely oblivious to Iaijutsu techniques.

(In my own games, I house rule it as a trained only skill).

[Chronos]

Keep in mind that Iajitsu Focus is from 3.0 material, and I think some of the skill rules were different there. I think trained-only might have been the default, and skills could only be used untrained if they said so?

[Promethean]

Keep in mind that Iajitsu Focus is from 3.0 material, and I think some of the skill rules were different there. I think trained-only might have been the default, and skills could only be used untrained if they said so?

Nope.

Skill rank is a number related to how many skill points a
character has invested in a skill. Many skills can be used even if
the character has no ranks in the skill; this is known as making
an untrained skill check.

Untrained skill-checks are default and trained only skills being exceptions was the rule. Therefore Iaijutsu checks are technically allowed to anyone anywhere. Bards and Use-Magic-Device Rogues just became stronger

[Darg]

Focus: Both duelists make an Iaijutsu Focus check. If you do not have ranks in the Iaijutsu Focus skill, you can attempt to use the skill untrained by making a Charisma check (and you shouldn't be in an iaijutsu duel).

You can make iaijutsu focus checks untrained. I don't see any reason it would be a problem to allow it untrained. If you have no ranks you aren't going to be getting much bonus damage from it and the skill only works in extremely specifics scenarios.

[St Fan]

You can make iaijutsu focus checks untrained. I don't see any reason it would be a problem to allow it untrained. If you have no ranks you aren't going to be getting much bonus damage from it and the skill only works in extremely specifics scenarios.

Indeed. Personally, I consider Iaijutsu Focus too restricted for a single skill to put ranks into, and about no 3.5 class would have it as a class skill, so I solved it with this homebrew:

Iaijutsu Focus is merged with the Perform [Weapon Drill] skill from Complete Warrior. Also a Charisma-based skill, also untrained, and Perform is easier to get as a class skill. It works very well, including with all the bonus implied from the listed feats (Combat Expertise, Greater Weapon Focus, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Whirlwind Attack).