The Book Thread

[Rynjin]

I stalled out on it around the first 1/4 I think. It was interesting, I think just not to my tastes.

Does the book pick up quickly? Maybe I should try again.

It's an entry in the "awful people do awful things to even awfuler people" genre of media, so if you weren't digging the first bit you aren't likely to get more invested as it maintains the same pace and steadily marches into the more extreme.

[Bohandas]

I'm working my way through the Dirk Gently novels right now

[Ionathus]

It's an entry in the "awful people do awful things to even awfuler people" genre of media, so if you weren't digging the first bit you aren't likely to get more invested as it maintains the same pace and steadily marches into the more extreme.

Good to know, thanks for the tip. Definitely not for me, then.

I'm working my way through the Dirk Gently novels right now

I really enjoyed Dirk Gently #1. Read it right after college I think, it was very unconventional and that intrigued me. #2 is the one pieced together by Eoin Colfer, right?

[Wookieetank]

Good to know, thanks for the tip. Definitely not for me, then.

Rough as TGWTDT got at times, The Girl who Played With fire ups the ante in the prologue on the awfulness . Definitely not a series for everyone. I'd say its about on par with A Song of Ice and Fire for awfulness, but due to the more contemporary real world setting, it definitely hits harder.

[The_Snark]

I really enjoyed Dirk Gently #1. Read it right after college I think, it was very unconventional and that intrigued me. #2 is the one pieced together by Eoin Colfer, right?

No, I believe Eoin Colfer did a posthumous final installment in the Hitchhiker's Guide series. The second Dirk Gently book was Adams, written and published quite some time before his death.

Edit - apparently, the third Dirk Gently book is what Adams was working on when he died, and they published the unfinished manuscript along with a bunch of his essays? He's on record as saying that it wasn't quite coming together and he might pivot and use the ideas in another Hitchhiker's Guide book rather than Dirk Gently. This is apparently separate from the thing Eoin Colfer did; I've no idea if Colfer used some of those ideas for his book, or if it's all-new, or what. But whatever's going on with the third, the second Dirk Gently book is wholly unrelated. I remember it being pretty good.

[Eldan]

There is a book called The Salmon of Doubt, which collects a few of Adams' unfinished stories. One of them is a third Dirk Gently novel.

[warty goblin]

Been reading a bit of this, a bit of that.

Mortal Sun's by Tanith Lee. I'm about a third of the way through. This is an intermediate Lee, not as relatively accessible as The Silver Metal Lover, but not as obtuse as, say, Blood of Roses. It's a classical Greece, or possibly Egyptian flavored fantasy, though perhaps more of a fictional memoir than Ye Olde Quest For Found Family. As is typical the prose is beautiful, the plot inexplicable, and awful things constantly happen for no intelligible reason. Good, but definitely am inessential entry in Lee's canon.

Hunting for something a bit easier, I started Lethe by Tricia Sullivan, which I grabbed during a used book harvest some months ago because it's called Lethe and I'm a sucker for classical allusion, and also there's a naked lady swimming in a tank of green sci-fi water with background dolphins on the cover. That suggests either schlock or existentialist woo, and in my endless quest for weird I'm down for either.

It's certainly weird. Within the first few chapters we get gene-altering virus warfare, animal- human hybridization, super intelligent dolphins, regular humans living in a giant reservation building for their own survival, under a government made up of networked brains in tanks. Even if the narrative turns out to be conventional (and u rather doubt that), at least the set dressing is bizarre.

Also my copy of Battleship Bismarck: A Design and Operational History arrived the other day. At something like 9 pounds and 500 pages summarizing the authors' literal half century of research, it should keep me busy for a while. Assuming the sheer mass of the thing doesn't pulverize me.

[Eldan]

So, they seriously made the tagline for Harrow the Ninth "The Necromancers are back and gayer than ever!", huh? I'm seriously tempted to burn this book without reading it.

[warty goblin]

So, they seriously made the tagline for Harrow the Ninth "The Necromancers are back and gayer than ever!", huh? I'm seriously tempted to burn this book without reading it.

Honestly I wish the first book was remotely schlocky enough for the sequel to have a prayer of living up to a tagline like that.

[Eldan]

The marketing for this series is just absolute bull****, start to finish. And I feel kind of uncomfortable reading something on the tram that looks like cheap slashfic.

[Batcathat]

The marketing for this series is just absolute bull****, start to finish. And I feel kind of uncomfortable reading something on the tram that looks like cheap slashfic.

I read an interview with someone in the publishing business who said that having risqué covers could often backfire, since it might get people's attention but a lot of people might be embarrassed to read it in public or even buy it. So there's probably a asterisk next to "sex sells" in some businesses.

[Eldan]

Well, I have a lot of colleagues who take the same tram, and I don't really want to explain over lunch why I'm reading "The Necromancers are Gayer than Ever!" Maybe not embarassed, but it's not a discussion I want to have.

[Batcathat]

Well, I have a lot of colleagues who take the same tram, and I don't really want to explain over lunch why I'm reading "The Necromancers are Gayer than Ever!" Maybe not embarassed, but it's not a discussion I want to have.

If I saw someone read it, I think I would mostly be curious about how it works. Like, is it just that the frequency of their gay activities is higher or is has the sheer quality of their gayness somehow increased?

[Mechalich]

Well, I have a lot of colleagues who take the same tram, and I don't really want to explain over lunch why I'm reading "The Necromancers are Gayer than Ever!" Maybe not embarassed, but it's not a discussion I want to have.

This is the cry of someone who desperately needs a tablet. The screen obscures all literary sins.

[Wookieetank]

The screen obscures all literary sins.

This amuses me greatly.

Re: Questionable book covers
You can always make or buy alternate covers as an option. Makes for good gifts too when you make joke covers for friends and family.

[Ionathus]

So, they seriously made the tagline for Harrow the Ninth "The Necromancers are back and gayer than ever!", huh? I'm seriously tempted to burn this book without reading it.

The more reactions I get from people I recommend the Locked Tomb series to, the more annoyed I am with its marketing team. I feel like they have completely missed the point and the tone of the series and are chasing the entirely wrong audience. It's aggravating as hell to feel like I'm swimming upstream against a book's own marketing when I try to recommend it.

If you can stomach having that on the back cover₁, rest assured that Harrow the Ninth is even less pulpy than Gideon the Ninth. The necromancers are not, in fact, gayer than ever - if anything, there's less sexuality in Harrow the Ninth. Mostly because they've swapped the main character from a horny butch jock to a horrible little soup-brain goth goblin

1. Suggested approaches: A) fake dust jacket. B) Put tape over the tagline and say "oh yeah it tore" if anyone asks. C) Leave it as-is and if anyone ever asks about it, say in a very disappointed voice "they're not actually all that gay "

If I saw someone read it, I think I would mostly be curious about how it works. Like, is it just that the frequency of their gay activities is higher or is has the sheer quality of their gayness somehow increased?

Genuinely a good question. I think I initially read it as "the frequency of their gay activities is higher" but yeah, can you modify "gayness"? Can there be degrees of it? The Kinsey Institute probably has opinions on that one...

But yeah. It's fun to have proudly queer-normative fiction, and like I said before, I know several queer friends who were drawn in by the marketing, so it works for at least part of the target audience. But I think it also unnecessarily pigeonholes and misrepresents itself in the process.

[IthilanorStPete]

The more reactions I get from people I recommend the Locked Tomb series to, the more annoyed I am with its marketing team. I feel like they have completely missed the point and the tone of the series and are chasing the entirely wrong audience. It's aggravating as hell to feel like I'm swimming upstream against a book's own marketing when I try to recommend it.

[...]

But yeah. It's fun to have proudly queer-normative fiction, and like I said before, I know several queer friends who were drawn in by the marketing, so it works for at least part of the target audience. But I think it also unnecessarily pigeonholes and misrepresents itself in the process.

For what it's worth, most of the people I've mentioned it to have been entirely on board with the tone of the marketing. And I definitely agree that it's a good thing to have, as you put it, proudly queer-normative media.

If you can stomach having that on the back cover₁, rest assured that Harrow the Ninth is even less pulpy than Gideon the Ninth. The necromancers are not, in fact, gayer than ever - if anything, there's less sexuality in Harrow the Ninth. Mostly because they've swapped the main character from a horny butch jock to a horrible little soup-brain goth goblin

Yeah, HtN is a good bit less pulpy and more focused on psychological drama/horror. It's also where I really fell in love with the series; I thought GtN was pretty good, but HtN starts to dig into the thematics more, and I empathize a lot with Harrow.

Spoiler: Harrow the Ninth spoilers

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"soup-brained" - I see what you did there.

[Ionathus]

Spoiler: Harrow the Ninth spoilers

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"soup-brained" - I see what you did there.

Spoiler: Harrow the Ninth

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I can't take credit! It's from some of my favorite fanart from the subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheNinthHou..._art_of_saint/

[IthilanorStPete]

Spoiler: Harrow the Ninth

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I can't take credit! It's from some of my favorite fanart from the subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheNinthHou..._art_of_saint/

Spoiler: Harrow the Ninth

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Ooh, that art is gorgeous - I figured you were making a sly reference to Harrow's cooking, though.

Ionathus mentioned TLT fanart, going to link some favs of mine. Apologies for the large images.

Spoiler: Gideon the Ninth

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Spoiler: The First House

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Source: https://twitter.com/Joric_art/status...41210172629015

Spoiler: Cytherea and Palamedes

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(Don't have the source saved)

Spoiler: Harrow the Ninth

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Spoiler: Harrow the First, Saint of Emesis

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Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheNinthHou...mesis_fan_art/

Spoiler: Nona the Ninth

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Spoiler: Go Loud

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Source: https://twitter.com/toughtinkart/sta...57487793418242

Spoiler: Paul the Apostle

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Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheNinthHou...f_our_new_old/

Spoiler: Life is too short, and love is too long

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Source: https://www.tumblr.com/ghostghostman...ve-is-too-long

Spoiler: This is how meat loves meat

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Source: https://twitter.com/eernarts/status/1574155359903780865

[Eldan]

This is the cry of someone who desperately needs a tablet. The screen obscures all literary sins.

Nope, not gonna happen. I spend 8-10 hours reading screens at work, and then several hours reading screens for entertainment, I'm not transfering my books. And no, no e-readers either. I don't like them. I like paper books.

[Eldan]

Genuinely a good question. I think I initially read it as "the frequency of their gay activities is higher" but yeah, can you modify "gayness"? Can there be degrees of it? The Kinsey Institute probably has opinions on that one...

But yeah. It's fun to have proudly queer-normative fiction, and like I said before, I know several queer friends who were drawn in by the marketing, so it works for at least part of the target audience. But I think it also unnecessarily pigeonholes and misrepresents itself in the process.

I would have assumed movement on the Kinsey scale, yes

[LaZodiac]

The reaction here to the marketing for the Locked Tomb is wild because I was of the understanding everyone was into it FOR those exact things everyone is annoyed by. Interesting to see the differences that crop up with stuff like this.

Anyway hey, I finished that docu-book I was reading. It was really good, and makes me want to watch Shaun of the Dead again.

[Dragonus45]

The reaction here to the marketing for the Locked Tomb is wild because I was of the understanding everyone was into it FOR those exact things everyone is annoyed by. Interesting to see the differences that crop up with stuff like this.

Anyway hey, I finished that docu-book I was reading. It was really good, and makes me want to watch Shaun of the Dead again.

I'll admit to perhaps being a bit oversensitive to the perception that someone is trying to take advantage of my gayness to sell me a shoddy product. But it happens so damn often and it kills me what people will support and try and say with a straight face is good when it's just a pile of dung with a rainbow sticker oozing off its

[Ionathus]

The reaction here to the marketing for the Locked Tomb is wild because I was of the understanding everyone was into it FOR those exact things everyone is annoyed by. Interesting to see the differences that crop up with stuff like this.

Anyway hey, I finished that docu-book I was reading. It was really good, and makes me want to watch Shaun of the Dead again.

I'll admit to perhaps being a bit oversensitive to the perception that someone is trying to take advantage of my gayness to sell me a shoddy product. But it happens so damn often and it kills me what people will support and try and say with a straight face is good when it's just a pile of dung with a rainbow sticker oozing off its

Yeah, the initial friend group that I found the Locked Tomb series through was all-in on the marketing, so that was my first experience. Then as I promoted it to others, I realized that it's not really as pulpy as the cover claims, plus those friends didn't immediately respond to that marketing. Then finally, it's mostly on this forum that people have outwardly criticized the marketing or felt that it was a detriment. And as a result it's made me realize just how much the phrase "lesbian necromancers in a haunted gothic space palace!" drives people away or affects their reading experience, and doesn't even describe the parts of the book I like the most.

And yeah, as Dragonus said, queerbaiting is a common assumption and TLT can feel that way depending on how much faith you put in the marketing and what you expect from a book that's described as "lesbian." Gideon The Ninth has, what, one non-romantic kiss between women? Plus one heterosexual (as far as we can tell) long-term marriage. Most of the "lesbian" content is just Gideon having naughty thoughts. Which qualifies if you're looking for queer-normative, but if you're looking for a more direct women-loving-women romance novel you will probably be disappointed.

[LaZodiac]

Genuinely something I do not understand about The Locked Tomb is why anyone thinks Gideon and Harrow are an enjoyable couple at all.

I get enemies to lovers are a thing, but this relationship pushes the line way too far imo, and the pay off is... well,

Spoiler

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gay folk once again having to get a shovel. As usual

. It's such a baffling decision to market it the way it is!

[Eldan]

The reaction here to the marketing for the Locked Tomb is wild because I was of the understanding everyone was into it FOR those exact things everyone is annoyed by. Interesting to see the differences that crop up with stuff like this.

Honestly, no. Romance is a 50-50 for me, at best, as in, in more than half the books that have Romance, I find it annoying and uninteresting. Sex scenes are worse, I can't remember ever reading a sex scene that was interesting or added anything to the book I was in. And with so much focus on the "Look! Lesbians! So many lesbians! The lesbianest lesbians!" I was expecting, well, a major focus on the Romance, which would place this book firmly in the uninteresting category for me. "Necromancer Space Opera" additionally sounds extremely pulpy (never mind that there's not one shred of space opera there), which makes it an additional toss-up. Could end up just bad, with too many genre elements crammed in, or could just be really edgy for no reason, so that's more reason to be skeptical.

Basically, what the marketing tells me is "cheap" and "lurid". And yeah, maybe a tad bandwagon-jumpy, with all the "look how gay!", it sounds a bit corporate, a bit "How do you do fellow kids". Insincere.

I also find it baffling how little it has to do with the actual contents. If they had marketed it as a fantasy locked room murder mystery, I'd have been much more interested.

[Eldan]

Genuinely something I do not understand about The Locked Tomb is why anyone thinks Gideon and Harrow are an enjoyable couple at all.

I get enemies to lovers are a thing, but this relationship pushes the line way too far imo, and the pay off is... well,

Spoiler

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gay folk once again having to get a shovel. As usual

. It's such a baffling decision to market it the way it is!

... They are a couple?

[Ionathus]

... They are a couple?

It's been almost four years and the fandom shows no signs of coming to a consensus

[Eldan]

I mean, looking back, I can see where the idea might come from, but surely there wasn't the tiniest hint of chemistry or anything happening. There were like six people there Gideon was more into and I don't think Harrow shows any interesting in anyone.

[Ionathus]

Spoiler: Gideon The Ninth

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Harrow does show interest in someone, though! It's just, to quote Gideon, "a chilly weirdo in a coffin"

I do see an interpretation for the romance angle, but that's not the part I find most compelling. Their transition from enemies to compatriots/life partners (with how permanent the Cavalier & Necro bond is, even pre-Lyctorhood) is what grabs me. I love how they both start out treating it like a sham, with Harrow routinely refusing Gideon's help or involvement and Gideon likewise ignoring Harrow as much as possible, but then they come to rely upon each other by the end. I didn't need that relationship to be romantic for it to still be very rewarding.