The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[ff7hero]

If you advance it to Large, you get a bunch more stat boosts, and grappling suddenly becomes a very attractive strategy. Elemental HD aren't great, but the immunities that they come with help make up for the weaker base stats (and this one even has bonus mind-affecting immunity). The ability bonuses are above par for the ECL, averaging a very impressive +4.4/HD at Medium or +5.3/HD at Large, and the high Charisma here also allows for a smooth and easy transition into a paladin type, and potentially combos well with SLA-granting templates. Insanity kind of sucks, but at least it'll have a good save DC. I think the blood elemental compares well against a human with comparable class levels.

I'm going with +0, but I could be talked up to +1.

They're Outsider HD btw, much better than Elemental.

[Caelestion]

They're an outsider with good stats and defences. I'm going with LA +0.

[danielxcutter]

Actually does anyone have the archive link for the Blood Mothers?

[Debatra]

Actually does anyone have the archive link for the Blood Mothers?

Here you go.

[danielxcutter]

Here you go.

Thanks! Maybe we should change the link in the original post for Blood Mothers though.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?

That's simple. You take your pool of blood‚ then you pour blood into it. Blooddrenched blood is just MORE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

If you advance it to Large, you get a bunch more stat boosts, and grappling suddenly becomes a very attractive strategy. Elemental HD aren't great, but the immunities that they come with help make up for the weaker base stats (and this one even has bonus mind-affecting immunity).

It doesn't have Elemental immunities‚ but it has Outsider hit points. And yeah‚ factoring the stat boosts when going up a size category‚ I'd say this is good enough for +0‚ even with no speech and questionable limbs. Change my vote to that.

[danielxcutter]

And it does have some elemental-esque traits like crit immunity.

[loky1109]

I'd say +0 here.

[InvisibleBison]

The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?

Maybe you use a different kind of blood than that which the blood elemental is made out of.

And I'll support +0 for the blood elemental.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Definitely +0 for 6RHD (large). Don't know if the 5RHD version is worth +0 or not; I'll abstain until I see more arguments.

[Troacctid]

They're Outsider HD btw, much better than Elemental.

I didn't even notice, but that's even better.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I did only say it's implied they're blind.

Just because you say something doesn't mean I'm not gonna rephrase it in my own analysis. I have no compunctions against being redundant, particularly if I'm only being a little redundant!

The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?

Kinda like oil-drenched water, except with two different kinds of blood.


Alright, let's take a moment to consider incomprehensible:

Incomprehensible (Ex): Because of its alien mentality, a blood elemental does not understand verbal communication of any sort, nor can its own gurgling language be understood by any creature except its own kind. A blood elemental is immune to all language-dependent spells and effects, and no mundane or magical effect that usually allows verbal communication (including a tongues spell or a monk's tongue of the sun and moon ability) functions with respect to it.

On one hand, this isn't great. On the other hand, it specifies verbal communication. Sign language is absolutely on the table! So there's wiggle room to let this guy interact with other party members.

I'm not sure how good a grappling rider Bloodbath really is. Drowning is slow, and the Wisdom damage and nausea only occur upon ejecting the victim. Maybe if the blood elemental engulfed and immediately ejected its victims? (Ejection seems to be a free action...) But of course this doesn't work on enemies bigger than the blood elemental.
I feel it's also worth pointing out that blood elementals get a +5 racial bonus on grapple checks.

Aside from Bloodbath, not much really stands out. Immunity to mind-affecting effects and stunning is pretty big; neither of those is especially common, but they're devastating, so cool. 1/day insanity, a bit of DR, immunity to critical hits, a quick swim speed, a slam comparable to the one-handed weapons it probably can't wield, natural armor comparable to the plate armor it probably can't wear...

Actually, cause insanity is worth a little inspection. First off, it's a 7th-level spell that can be used as a supernatural ability once a day. On the other hand, that spell is basically just a 4th-level spell that affects fewer targets for longer. Oh, and nonliving creatures can be affected by confusion but not insanity for some reason. Anyways, as a combat debuff it's way less potent than "7th-level spell cast at ECL 5" sounds, and I struggle to think of a noncombat use for insanity beyond "ruin someone's life, but nonlethally".

I dunno. It works very differently than most comparable grapplers, but not in a way that's obviously superior or inferior. Tentative +0. Adding one HD to make yourself Large is definitely worth the investment, but another five to be Huge probably ain't worth five levels of anything else. Even five levels of something like monk would be better than five dead levels plus a size increase...especially if you're in a campaign with lots of 10-foot corridors. (Huge is where your size stops just being a doorways-and-towns sort of impairment.)

[Troacctid]

Actually, cause insanity is worth a little inspection. First off, it's a 7th-level spell that can be used as a supernatural ability once a day. On the other hand, that spell is basically just a 4th-level spell that affects fewer targets for longer. Oh, and nonliving creatures can be affected by confusion but not insanity for some reason. Anyways, as a combat debuff it's way less potent than "7th-level spell cast at ECL 5" sounds, and I struggle to think of a noncombat use for insanity beyond "ruin someone's life, but nonlethally".

Generally speaking, nonliving creatures are immune to all mind-affecting effects.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm. Would telepathy work for getting around Incomprehensible?

[Debatra]

The first line of Incomprehensible is "Because of its alien mentality[...]", so I would assume not.

...Which actually kinda rules out a Pearl of Speech as well.

Oh, and because I just copy/pasted from my post on the Blood Mother, I neglected to mention the fact that they can't understand other languages either. Sorry about that.

[Caelestion]

Well, they specified verbal twice. You'd think that such specificity would be exclusive.

[ff7hero]

Well, they specified verbal twice. You'd think that such specificity would be exclusive.

I'm not an expert on the matter, but does Telepathy usually specify whether it is verbal or more...empathic I guess is what non-verbal Telepathy would be called?

(I think the confusion might be people thinking verbal=spoken. It just means "in the form of words.")

[Caelestion]

Huh. That is a good point.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm not an expert on the matter, but does Telepathy usually specify whether it is verbal or more...empathic I guess is what non-verbal Telepathy would be called?

(I think the confusion might be people thinking verbal=spoken. It just means "in the form of words.")

A lot of Telepathy mention "every creature who has a language". In that case‚ I'd guess this is a verbal communication‚ even if it bypasses language barriers. On the other hand‚ other kinds of telepathies do not. For example‚ the familiar-master telepathy is very explicitly nonverbal and empathic.

[emulord]

One advantage of being made of blood is I imagine you can draw symbols on the ground to get your point across to your allies even if it is done without words.

Medium seems on par for stat boosts, but without being able to use weapons or gear effectively it seems like you have to use some kind of build where your grappling or stats are the relevant aspect. Monk, Rogue, Scout (aquatic campaign), some kind of tome of battle class etc.
Large would be able to grapple relevant foes and just mess them up, so its a more restricted build path with a higher power ceiling.

Calling +0 for medium, +1 for large, -0 for huge.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Generally speaking, nonliving creatures are immune to all mind-affecting effects.

It's still weird that insanity specified "living" and confusion didn't.

Hmm. Would telepathy work for getting around Incomprehensible?

By RAW, arguably. By RAI, it shouldn't.

(I think the confusion might be people thinking verbal=spoken. It just means "in the form of words.")

Casual reminder that words can have more than one definition.

verbal [ vur-buhl ]SHOW IPA

adjective
1. of or relating to words: verbal ability.
2. consisting of or in the form of words: verbal imagery.
3. expressed in spoken words; oral rather than written: verbal communication; verbal agreement. (emphasis mine)
4. consisting of or expressed in words (as opposed to actions): a verbal protest.
5. pertaining to or concerned with words only (as opposed to ideas, facts, or realities): a purely verbal distinction between two concepts.
6. corresponding word for word; verbatim: a verbal translation.
7. using words: verbal facility.
8. based on the use of words (as opposed to other activity): a verbal score in a test; verbal IQ.
9. Grammar
a. of, relating to, or derived from a verb: verbal nouns and adjectives.
b. used in a sentence as or like a verb.
c. used to form verbs: the verbal ending “-ed.”

noun
10. Grammar.
a. a word derived from a verb, especially one used as a noun or an adjective, as, in English, a gerund, participle, or infinitive.
b. a word or words used in a sentence as or like a verb.

OTHER WORDS FOR VERBAL
spoken.

You could make a RAW argument that "verbal communication" only means "communication of verbs," so the blood elemental can express and understand nouns and modifiers just fine. But nobody would agree with you, because that's not what people generally mean when they say "verbal communication". As indicated by dictionary.com, "verbal communication" is generally associated with definition #3 rather than, say, definition 2 or 5.

I feel kinda dirty for going all argumentum ad dictionarium, but you're the one who brought formal definitions into it, so my conscience should be clean.

[Thurbane]

Weird creature.

I might do a detailed writeup if I get time before we move on, but for now, I think I'll go +1. Good ability mods, solid immunities, some decent special attacks, on a chassis of the equal best HD type. Downsides are lost levels due to number of HD, weird body type, and the Incomprehensible quality.

I'd maybe go into some kind of martial adept for this one...

[Beni-Kujaku]

In "Iggwilv’s Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" (the place the Cauchimera is from), at p24, there is a creature called a Pech that is described. After some superficial research, it's a minor Earth Elemental resembling a squirrel from 1st and 2nd edition. However, it's not in MM6 and I didn't find where else it has been published. Did I overlook something or should the pech be added to Monster Manual VI?

Edit: same thing with the Tooth Golem, page 89.

[Thurbane]

In "Iggwilv’s Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" (the place the Cauchimera is from), at p24, there is a creature called a Pech that is described. After some superficial research, it's a minor Earth Elemental resembling a squirrel from 1st and 2nd edition. However, it's not in MM6 and I didn't find where else it has been published. Did I overlook something or should the pech be added to Monster Manual VI?

Edit: same thing with the Tooth Golem, page 89.

Thank you for bringing these to my attention, I will add them to my online monster list now.

The Pech I just flat out missed. I remember these little guys from the 1E MM2. Always happy to discover a 1E monster that got a 3.5 update.



With the Tooth Golem, I thought it was an existing creature: I think I was mixing it up with the Fang Golem (MM4) and/or Tooth Beast (ToM).

[remetagross]

I would gladly pay 1 RHD (even more so of the outsider type) to nab a +8 to Str, +4 to Con, -2 to Dex, +2 to NA and thusly +4 to Grapple. This monster has impressive stats and immunities and a nasty rider on grapples. Going Bear Totem Barbarian to nab Improved Grab seems excellent. The one drawback of these guys is the inability to verbally communicate...but Drow Sign Language is available to anyone for at most 2 skill points, and is anyway useful for the whole party.

I'll give LA+1 to these dudes, and I'm honestly considering LA+2 (looking at a dedicated grappling build). The awesome stat modifiers and immunites make up for the lack of class features to me.

[Debatra]

+0 - Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, Caelestion, loky1109, InvisibleBison, GreatWyrmGold, emulord
-0 - ff7hero, Thurbane, remetagross

Definitely +0 for 6RHD (large). Don't know if the 5RHD version is worth +0 or not; I'll abstain until I see more arguments.

Calling +0 for medium, +1 for large, -0 for huge.

Once again, we're rating the base version with 5 RHD. The 6HD bit is just a note on advancement for those cases where it may be desirable (as this one actually seems to be for some builds). If there are actually different versions for different levels of RHD (such as with True Dragons), it will be called out as such.

Looks like a solid +0. Next up is the Ectoplasm Elemental... which actually has those different versions for different sizes.

---

How exactly did you come to +1 with half a dozen people saying +0 and only a single one voting for +1?

A typo is how. Fixed.

[Tzardok]

How exactly did you come to +1 with half a dozen people saying +0 and only a single one voting for +1?

[Debatra]

Ectoplasm Elemental

Size & Type: Small-Huge Elemental (Water)
Space/Reach: Normal for its size.
HD: 2 (Small), 4 (Medium), 8 (Large), 16 (Huge), 21 (Huge, Greater), 24 (Huge, Elder)
Speed: 40', Swim 40'

Ability Scores (Small): Str +0, Dex +0, Con +0, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net -6, one penalty
Ability Scores (Medium): Str +4, Dex +4, Con +4, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +6, one penalty
Ability Scores (Large): Str +8, Dex +8, Con +6, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +16, one penalty
Ability Scores (Huge): Str +10, Dex +10, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +22, one penalty
Ability Scores (Greater): Str +12, Dex +12, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +26, one penalty
Ability Scores (Elder): Str +14, Dex +14, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +30, one penalty

Natural Armor: 4 (Small), 5 (Medium), 6 (Large), 8 (Huge+)
Natural Weapons: One Primary Slam (1d4 S, 1d6 M, 2d6 L, 2d8 H, + same dice of acid)
Skill List: Listen, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid blob
Speech (Languages): Not noted, presumably no.
CR: 1-11
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0 across the board

Immunity to acid, Improved Grab for one size category smaller than itself for its slam, and DR (5/- L+H, 10/- G+E). The acid damage from its slam also sticks around for a bit, forcing its victims to make a Fortitude save... that isn't based on any ability score and is therefore just 10+1/2HD... to avoid taking the same amount of damage again on the round after being struck. Dismiss Ectoplasm only stuns it for 1d4 rounds instead of the normal effects.

Finally, it can Envelop creatures smaller than itself, or two creatures that are at least two size categories smaller than it. The target gets a Reflex save (again, no attribute bonus to the DC) to avoid. Once captured, it can not physically escape. Each round spent Enveloped deals acid damage appropriate to the Ectoplasm Elemental's size.

[Caelestion]

An anime water girl can't possibly be the actual art WotC used, right?

[H_H_F_F]

I think this is pretty clearly -0, right?