The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Remuko]

As a professional entomologist, it's my opinion that only professional entomologists should make stat blocks for bugs. Except, of course, for other professional entomologists who have different opinions from me.

But, I'm actually impressed with Gwendolyn's use of entomological terminology: she apparently did some research for this. But, I don't agree that poor maneuverability was the right design choice.

glad to hear from a professional that my suspicion that the maneuverability was a bad call, was correct.

[Debatra]

Forestfolk

Size & Type: Small Fey
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 4
Speed: 20', Climb 20', Fly 10' (Average)
Ability Scores: Str -4, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net -2, four penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d4)
Skill List: Climb, Escape Artist, Hide (+8 in forests or overgrown areas), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Use Rope
Body Shape: Humanoid with wings attached to their underarms, like a bat's.
Speech (Languages): Forestfolk, "comprising of clicks and grunts". Uncertain if "normal" speech is possible.
CR: 3
WotC LA: +1
Our LA: __

When was the last time you saw a creature with Use Rope?

Anyway; you have sonic resistance 5, proficiency with daggers, darts, and leather armor, and Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. Despite the listed fly speed, you're actually gliding. You must dive at least 10' when "flying" (20' on a double move). The article does helpfully remind us that downward movement is at double speed just like other flying creatures. So for those paying attention, you can cross a 10' gap if you start from 20' up. No idea what happens if these things take Improved Flight, which would bump a normal Average flier up to Good and thus allow them to hover.

Once every 2d4 rounds, a Forestfolk can emit a high-pitched shriek in a 30' cone. Creatures within must make a Con-based Fortitude save or take 2d4 sonic damage and be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds, taking half damage and no paralysis on a successful save. There's also the usual 24-hour immunity clause for that specific Forestfolk's Hunting Cry on a made save, which also appears to apply to the damage. This is both sonic and mind-affecting.

[Blue Jay]

I'm voting LA -0 for the forestfolk. Too many stat penalties, 4 racial hit dice, special abilities aren't very exciting, weak attacks and slow speeds. The strengths of the fey type are skills and saves, but this monster's weaknesses directly work against those.

The highlights are the AoE paralysis (the only thing that's actually pretty good), and the climb and glide speeds. Sonic resistance is pretty rare too, but not particularly exciting.

I think it's safe to assume they can learn to speak other languages. I feel like, if they have the minimal Intelligence score, you don't rule that they can't learn languages unless the stat block specifically says they can't.

And as a side note, it bothers me when flying monsters can walk faster than they can fly/glide. I don't know if that's even mechanically possible in the real world. It's at least weird enough that there shouldn't be this many game designers make monsters like that.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm a bit torn on this one.... On the one hand‚ it has an innate sonic mind affecting immunity‚ which would make it the lowest-level completely RAW entry into Siren with one level of bard‚ and the ability is at will (or at least 1/encounter) which would make it pretty consistent‚ but on the other hand it has a Cha penalty and generally the stats are much too low for anything except rogue‚ and most DMs would agree that a satyr's pipes are sonic anyway. Not completely uninteresting‚ but still LA-0.

[Tzardok]

A) Why exactly calls the descriptive text them sonic elementals when they are fey? B) I think you misunderstand downwards movement doubling. It says your forward movement doubles when diving. A 10 ft. Downwards movement allows you to cross a 20 ft chasm in a single move action.
This also explains their slow flight: because they are always diving, it's always doubled.
Maybe we should look up how gliding was handled with the hadozee in Stormwrack.

[H_H_F_F]

Okay, this would obviously be a -0 if it wasn't for the hunting cry, and I get that it can still look unimpressive with it, but I actually think a +0 is just fine. Paralysis is a very good effect, and 4 useless hit dice can still help you gather skills - qualifying youvfor Siren, from SS. That's a hard class to get into and get good stuff from, and this one has a cry at will (24 immunity, blah blah), and the cone shape is way more party friendly than the far more common emanation of other sonic-mind affecting Su abilities.

I think LA +0 is fine. I'd play this.

Edit: great minds think alike, or at least similarly.

[Blue Jay]

B) I think you misunderstand downwards movement doubling. It says your forward movement doubles when diving. A 10 ft. Downwards movement allows you to cross a 20 ft chasm in a single move action.
This also explains their slow flight: because they are always diving, it's always doubled.
Maybe we should look up how gliding was handled with the hadozee in Stormwrack.

That's true: I definitely overlooked that wording. But, you're still building up momentum with gravity, and yet still only moving at your walking speed. It really ought to be faster than that.

And the wording for the hadozee is quite different. Plus, they have a much higher gliding speed (I'm not sure theirs counts as a fly speed in most ways):

Gliding:
Hadozee can use their arm-flaps to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing them to travel 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet of descent. A hadozee glides at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability).

I also thought I remembered language saying that a gliding creature can't gain altitude, but maybe that was specific to the phanaton or something? Or maybe that's in 5e?

[Thurbane]

• Small Fey.
• 4 RHD (d6 hp, poor BAB, 2 good saves, 6 skill points/"level")
• Speed 20 ft, climb 20 ft, fly* 10 ft (average)
• Bite 1d4
• Hunting cry: 30 foot cone, 2d4 damage and paralysis 1d4+1 rounds (Fort for half damage and no paralysis). Save is Con based. 2d4 rounds cooldown.
• Gliding: your flight has limitations.
• Low-light vision.
• Resistance to sonic 5.
• Str -4, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2: net -2.
• Small-ish, but mostly useful, racial skill list. +8 racial on Climb, +8 untyped on Hide in forests and overgrown areas.
• Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Small humanoid in form. They have their own language, so presumably they could learn others.

Interesting one. If it weren't for Hunting Cry, I'd call this an easy -0. It's a very respectable attack, and paralysis for 1d4+1 rounds pretty much means game over for the targets. 2d4 recharge means in most cases, you're getting it off once per encounter. Sonic and mind-affecting: a fair chunk of creatures will be immune.

I'm voting LA +0. Fey HD aren't the worst (unless you're going to a build that needs BAB, and even if you are, you only lost 2). What would your progression be? If you can get past the -2 Int, maybe skillmonkey? Maybe martial adept?

[loky1109]

+0 LA is good for me.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm going to vote for -0 on this one. The only thing that really brings it close to +0 is Hunting Cry, and that's going to fall off in utility pretty quickly, since its DC is at best going to increase far slower than monster save bonuses. Pulling it downward, on the other hand, are a lack of any clear advancement paths, let alone one that synergizes with its racial abilities, and some unpleasant ability penalties (-4 Strength on a small creature means it has difficulty not being encumbered just by basic gear).

[Remuko]

this one is looking a bit divisive. nice to see some actual discussion! i think this is -0 though myself. maybe not the worst -0 but yeah the stat penalties and the weak abilities and 4HD is just not good enough imo.

[Morphic tide]

Put me down for LA -0. It is obnoxiously close, but ultimately for all you can function as a Rogue and enter Siren early and cleanly, it simply does not monster-math properly. If it had Natural Armor instead of a manufactured armor proficiency and Hunting Cry were Charisma-based, it'd be an easy +0 entirely on the back of Siren existing to give it stuff to do even with still having the -2, but without that build focusing and lost defensive benefit normal to monsters it's stuck in a very awkward place.

[danielxcutter]

How good is Siren, actually?

[H_H_F_F]

How good is Siren, actually?

Pretty damn good, IMO. Varied, powerful, mass effects with high DCs. It's weak against enemies immune to mind-affecting or to [sonic], obviously, but it's very good.

[danielxcutter]

Just to clarify, how do those effects work? Are they separate rider effects on the sonic attack?

[H_H_F_F]

Just to clarify, how do those effects work? Are they separate rider effects on the sonic attack?

Yeah, they are. When you do your sonic attack, you can layer them on top of it. You can layer multiple ones on the same attack - so an ECL 15 forestfolk (X5/siren 10) can start the wncounter with a cone that has it's normal effect - and the effects of crushing despair, phantasmal killer, feeblemind, enervation (but allows fort save), flesh to stone, and power word: kill. The firs and last effects would be 1/day, the rest are 10/day. The DC for all of them is 22+cha, which the class has increased by 5 (inherent).

It's all SU (so doesn't work in an AMF). On the other hand, the songs affect "all creatures within range of the siren's sonic attack", so from ECL 12 or so you don't care as much about immunity to mind-affecting.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So an ECL 15 forestfolk (X5/siren 10) can start the wncounter with a cone that has it's normal effect - and the effects of crushing despair, phantasmal killer, feeblemind, enervation (but allows fort save), flesh to stone, and power word: kill. The firs and last effects would be 1/day, the rest are 10/day. The DC for all of them is 22+cha, which the class has increased by 5 (inherent).

To add on this, it's not quite a rider as it adds another effect which can be not mind-affecting (like flesh to stone).

Siren is interesting in that it scales really well with levels. The DCs are 12+class level+Cha (not half the level), it gives a total of +6 Cha and Reverberation as a bonus feat, and you gain both new overlay effects and more uses on your existing effects, so that's great. A forestfolk rolling a 16 in Cha (so 14 after racial adjustment) would end with 20 Cha, and basically three DC 29 SoL in the first round of combat. That's almost 90% chance to OS a Balor (not even counting the possible enervation penalties to saves), or 80% if the balor wasn't weak to feeblemind.
The real problem is that it's not great at lower levels: the first three levels only give you a Crushing Despair overlay, which, while not useless, is far from SoL, and gaining a phantasmal killer effect at ECL 9 isn't really new either, even with such high DCs.

But starting at level 5, it's an incredible class. Feeblemind at level 5, enervation at level 7, and flesh to stone at level 9 are all incredible.

Of course, a monster 4/Bard 1/Siren 10 would be an ECL 15 character who still can't affect Constructs and skeletal Undead at all, but that's why you have a party.

Edit: There is another problem with forestfolks entering Siren: their skill list doesn't include even one of the required skills (Bluff 6, Intimidate 6, Perform 8). At most, at ECL 4, they will have 3.5 ranks in each of these, and require their level 5 class to give them 11 skill points to do it. You would have to take the Open-Minded feat for 5 more skill points or another level of bard. Either way, you will be ECL 6 before you can enter Siren, which means FtS at level 15 and not 14.

[H_H_F_F]

To add on this, it's not quite a rider as it adds another effect which can be not mind-affecting (like flesh to stone).

Think I've made that clear, too?

...and Reverberation as a bonus feat

Just to clarify: reverberation is explicitly included in the DCs already.

But starting at level 5, it's an incredible class. Feeblemind at level 5, enervation at level 7, and flesh to stone at level 9 are all incredible.

I think song of death gets slept on. I know Power Word: kill isn't a great 9th level spell, but it shows up a couple of levels earlier, and it's an AoE - which is a huge difference. It's "no save, just die" for full armies of mid-level mooks, while still utilizing your action to affect the main enemies. It's really good too, IMO.

]Edit: There is another problem with forestfolks entering Siren: their skill list doesn't include even one of the required skills (Bluff 6, Intimidate 6, Perform 8). At most, at ECL 4, they will have 3.5 ranks in each of these, and require their level 5 class to give them 11 skill points to do it. You would have to take the Open-Minded feat for 5 more skill points or another level of bard. Either way, you will be ECL 6 before you can enter Siren, which means FtS at level 15 and not 14.

Very good catch. Very unusual for a fey, to have none of these.

Going rogue would help a bit too - there's no reason you need to go bard, I think rogue would often be better.

[Thurbane]

Edit: There is another problem with forestfolks entering Siren: their skill list doesn't include even one of the required skills (Bluff 6, Intimidate 6, Perform 8). At most, at ECL 4, they will have 3.5 ranks in each of these, and require their level 5 class to give them 11 skill points to do it. You would have to take the Open-Minded feat for 5 more skill points or another level of bard. Either way, you will be ECL 6 before you can enter Siren, which means FtS at level 15 and not 14.

Good point. I had a look at Alternative ways to get new Class skills, and while there are feats that would let you add Bluff, Intimidate or Perform to the skill points you can buy with your racial skill points, getting all three would be impossible, as far as I can tell. Frustrating that FF get NONE of the required Siren skills as racial skills.

So if you spent your level 1 feat on Apprentice (entertainer), and your level 3 feat on Martial Study (devoted sprit), entering Siren at ECL 6 is doable. Seems like a massive waste of feats, though.

[H_H_F_F]

Good point. I had a look at Alternative ways to get new Class skills, and while there are feats that would let you add Bluff, Intimidate or Perform to the skill points you can buy with your racial skill points, getting all three would be impossible, as far as I can tell. Frustrating that FF get NONE of the required Siren skills as racial skills.

So if you spent your level 1 feat on Apprentice (entertainer), and your level 3 feat on Martial Study (devoted sprit), entering Siren at ECL 6 is doable. Seems like a massive waste of feats, though.

If you get int 10, and go rogue at ECL 5, you'd omly need one of these feats. Martial study (shield block) is far from great on this chassis, but it's not complete trash either; you don't really care about your to-hit, and you don't use hands, so carrying a shield non-proficiently is a fine choice anyway.

It's one meh (for you) feat, and a level of rogue. It's a limitation for sure, but I don't think it's a significant enough one to push me down to -0...

[Blue Jay]

How good is Siren, actually?

It's powerful, but (although I've never seen it in play) it always felt to me like it would promote a toxic play style that's highly likely to ruin the game for everyone. It's basically a series of heavy-hitting (mostly save-or-lose) attacks with a usually-large area of effect and a high number of uses per day, and a set of numerical bonuses that boost those attacks' already-high save DCs.

So, it basically encourages you to go on a big power trip with a very repetitive formula. I suspect that most Siren PCs will end up ruining everyone else's fun (because they leave very little for their companions to do) or completely useless (because their DM stops running monsters that are susceptible to mind-affecting effects).

The forestfolk's Hunting Cry actually has one advantage for a Siren though: it's a cone effect. Most of the classic, Siren-compatible abilities (e.g., harpy, frostwind virago, rusalka, glaistig, etc.) are spreads with unmanageably large radii of effect, which can create logistical complications related to friendly fire. A 30-foot cone is easier to use without hitting your allies, and you don't have to remember to immunize them every morning.

[loky1109]

I'm looking at Monster Manual 3.0 and I found an interesting thing.
There are table with variant slaadi at the page 169. It's list of special abilities for slaadi only (and for unseelie fey if optional rule from Dragon #304 is used). 3.5 update removed it, but I think these abilities are worthy of LA Assignment once.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm looking at Monster Manual 3.0 and I found an interesting thing.
There are table with variant slaadi at the page 169. It's list of special abilities for slaadi only (and for unseelie fey if optional rule from Dragon #304 is used). 3.5 update removed it, but I think these abilities are worthy of LA Assignment once.

I... Don't think that will be necessary. That's updated 3.0. We're not rating the various Halfblood Yuan-ti variants, or the Huge Gelatinous Cube, why would we rate the variant slaadi? Also, they're all quite insignificant, with the ability to cast a single 3rd level spell at will (note: not as an SLA) being by far the most interesting (the second one being the same, but with a 1st-level spell), and still being probably not worth LA+1 at ECL 9 and higher.

[loky1109]

I... Don't think that will be necessary. That's updated 3.0. We're not rating the various Halfblood Yuan-ti variants, or the Huge Gelatinous Cube, why would we rate the variant slaadi? Also, they're all quite insignificant, with the ability to cast a single 3rd level spell at will (note: not as an SLA) being by far the most interesting (the second one being the same, but with a 1st-level spell), and still being probably not worth LA+1 at ECL 9 and higher.

Let me disagree with some of your arguments.
1) It actually isn't updated 3.0 material. General description of slaadi - yes, it has update, but this sidebar hasn't.
2) Halfblood yuan-ti options and huge gelatinous cube opposite have direct updates. And most of yuan-ti really have their direct analogies in 3.5, only human-headed abomination was lost (I'm missing it actually). Or I forget something?
3) SLA/Spell. I'm not sure here and need to recheck, but it seems to me that it's exactly SLA wording just 3.0.
4) If all these abilities don't worth +1, well, it will be easier to evaluate them.

Why variant slaadi? It's very thematic part of these creatures, it has very clear mechanic, it was totally cut in update, and I'm not sure this cutting was deliberate - it's sidebar, it could be just forgotten.

[Bavarian itP]

I'm looking at Monster Manual 3.0 and I found an interesting thing.
There are table with variant slaadi at the page 169. It's list of special abilities for slaadi only (and for unseelie fey if optional rule from Dragon #304 is used). 3.5 update removed it, but I think these abilities are worthy of LA Assignment once.

I guess we'll rate them once it is time to rate the 3.0 MM

[loky1109]

I guess we'll rate them once it is time to rate the 3.0 MM

Well, I guess there are nothing more in MM 3.0 to rate. )

[Beni-Kujaku]

LA -0: Blue Jay, Beni-Kujaku, InvisibleBison, Remuko, Morphic Tide
LA +0: H_H_F_F, Thurbane, loky1109

Can we call it and move on to the frenzied dogs? Or to the yuan-ti variants if you feel they deserve this place, Debatra?

Edit: also, it seems we have another Topiary Guardian situation, where increasing an animal's number of RHD is rarely worth anything more than -0.

Sewerm Snake, Phynxkin, Nifern, Poisonous Toad, Swindlespitter, Hyena, Small Viper,

[Debatra]

Sorry about the delays. It was less life keeping me busy and more just plain old burnout. Thanks for tallying the votes Beni. And yeah, there's no reason not to do the Yuan-ti variants when we get there.

[Debatra]

Frenzy Dog

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any animal of 2 HD or less
Size & Type: Size increases to Medium, Type changes to Magical Beast
Space/Reach: As normal for (potentially new) size
Hit Dice: Highly variable. Lose Animal HD, gain 5d10+10 Magical Beast HD (As mentioned by InvisibleBison immediately below, there is a much more sane interpretation of this.)
Speed: Increase land speed to 50', lose other movement modes
Ability Scores: Str +7, Dex -2, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +8 - Net +17, two penalties
Armor Class: +6 Natural Armor
Skills: Lose all class skills, replaced by Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Survival
CR: +3, to a minimum of 3
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0* (Template can be removed by [Greater] Dispel Magic. Also Wish or Miracle, but those are less of an issue.)

You can't get something for nothing? Well you certainly don't here. Get your land speed boosted to 50'? Lose every other movement mode. Get a Bite for 1d8? Lose all other attacks. Get some class skills? Lose all the others. Alertness and Improved Initiative as bonus feats? You guessed it! Lose the rest.

And I believe it bears repeating: You have a random amount of RHD, from 15 to 60.

And to be fair, it does gain a little bit without losing everything else that's related. It doesn't lose any special attacks (except presumably those based on things it no longer has) or qualities, while gaining Improved Rage, Trip, Scent, and Neck Spikes that do a little damage to grapplers.

And again: 5d10+10 RHD (And again, there is a far saner interpretation of this that I missed.)

[InvisibleBison]

I don't think the 5d10+10 hit dice is meant to mean 15-60 HD. I think it's supposed to mean 5 magical beast hit dice, with 10 bonus hit points regardless of the frenzy dog's constitution. That's certainly how the sample frenzy dog is constructed. Assuming that is the case, I think frenzy dog is probably a +0 template. It gets some nice melee abilities, but nothing notably stronger than what a standard-race 5th level melee character can do.