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Thread: Order of the Stick: November II
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2005-12-01, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
And as far as fudging the dice goes....as a player I have on a couple of occasions rolled less than 5 on my attack for 4 or five straight rounds...including a couple of natural ones. So I could easily see Roy and company having incredibly crappy dice luck and losing the fight.
Why is abbreviation such a long word?
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2005-12-01, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Deleran
He simply pointed out that the Order had more important things to attend to ("I am not intending to be completely without passion for their plight").
The way Haley was treating Roy when he was a female would be better be classified as good natured ribbing than disrespect.
Edit: It appears I guessed wrong about the filter.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2005-12-01, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Holy sock, 10+ pages in one day!
I think for the first time, I'm not going to read all of the recent replies.
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2005-12-01, 02:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by SpaceCoyoteVega
At best you could call her is a bounty hunter, even though the ability to violate someone’s rights really only extends over bail jumpers…
And before someone even mentions it, I don’t care if those laws don’t exist/carry the same weight in this world. If copyright infringement, restraining orders, and class action lawsuits exist then the other stuff exists. So :P
*Edit* Corrected GrammerAldas
Great occasions do not make heroes or cowards; they simply unveil them to the eyes of men. Silently and imperceptibly, as we wake or sleep, we grow strong or weak; and at last some crisis shows what we have become. -Brooke Foss Westcott
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2005-12-01, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Personally, my respect for Miko went down a few pegs. I've felt a moderate amount of sympathy for Miko, for various reasons, but I felt her reaction was out of proportion. Admittedly, I was one of the people who predicted she'd cry, but I really didn't expect her to fly off th handle this way (By the way, I'm NOT talking about the violence, since it's pretty clear that happened because Roy and Co. refused to continue the journey.) I would've sooner expected Miko's response to Roy's comments to be something along the lines of "Very well. I do not require your approval, only your cooperation." I suppose the vehemence of her reaction only proves that Roy's comments got under her skin, especially the part about how she's only Good on a technicality.
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2005-12-01, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by SpaceCoyoteVega
Secondly, Miko does not display symptoms of psychopathy (also known as sociopathy, and more properly known as Antisocial Personality Disorder.) People with this disorder display a lack of empathy (which she does) and a complete disreguard for the well being of others, rules, the law and authority (which she does not.)
She did not use lethal force when she attacked the OoTS for the second time. Otherwise, they would be dead.
In the game (not that this comment about lethal force is restricted to the game) it's said outright that "non-lethal damage is subdual damage." Miko had every chance of dealing subdual damage (even with her weapons, under the rules, although not as efficiently as lethal damage), but didn't (in the scenario the Giant presented).
The only thing she really seems guilty of is taking people at their word. Roy and the others directly challenged Miko to a fight. ("You're going to have to drag us there in chains.") Miko accepted the challenge, as she would be expected to in accordance with both the laws in her society and her duty as an arresting officer.
The OoTS wasn't expecting her to take up the challenge, perhaps meaning their statements as sarcastic or rhetorical, or thinking Miko wouldn't risk her life by attacking all of them. They were mistaken. A bushi is expected to willingly sacrifice his or her life in order to fulfill her duty. This is quite the opposite of sociopathic behavior, which would tend to be extremely self-serving.
Killing them all on the spot also would have been perfectly acceptable according to her (admittedly sociopathic) societal laws. However, she did not in fact kill any of them.
As for the fact that she didn't kill any of them, that is mostly due to a combination of luck (that none of her attacks happened to bring anyone down to -10 or below--unless you want to argue that she knew exactly how much damage to deal in order to just bring them to dying, rather than outright killing them, which I find doubtful) and that Durkon was around to heal the OOTSers (which she shouldn't have been able to count upon). AND, of course, she didn't kill them after they were defeated/had surrendered, which should come as no surprise--her goal was not, after all, to kill them. This does not change the fact that she used lethal force and that there was a fair chance of her killing at least one of them, and that she still had other options open to her, had she chosen to consider them.
If we're going to be diagnostic about things, I'd say Miko is far more likely to suffer from Ausperger's syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausperger%27s_syndrome than antisocial personality disorder. Ausperger's syndrome is a form of high-functioning autisim characterized by stunted or disordered social development paired with above average intelligence; intense, narrow focus on a subject of study; and, among some, a tendency to take everything literally, being unable to recognize sarcasm, hyperbole or rhetorical questions.
edit: oh, also: (You quoted: ) People with Asperger syndrome often are noted for having a highly pedantic way of speaking, using language far more formal and structured than the situation normally would be thought to call for.
sound familliar?
Edit: Fixed some stuff that I definately misphrased.
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2005-12-01, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I know its kind of silly to be arguing over a small phrase but…if there is one thing that Miko ISNT it is an arresting officer. She is way out of her jurisdiction, failure to identify herself as an officer, illegal search and unlawful imprisonment (I have yet to see a warrant), reckless endangerment, cruel and unusual punishment (dragging them along in chains behind her horse), murder (she admits to killing beings simply because her detect alignment spell said they were evil), and assault with a deadly weapon.
At best you could call her is a bounty hunter, even though the ability to violate someone’s rights really only extends over bail jumpers…
And before someone even mentions it, I don’t care if those laws don’t exist/carry the same weight in this world. If copyright infringement, restraining orders, and class action lawsuits exist then the other stuff exists.
This is what really gets me, Miko is a criminal herself. She ignores the laws of the nation she is in to impose her own laws on people outside her own land. The OotS was not in Lord Shojo's lands when they destroyed the gate, so Shojo has no right to send his bounty hunter after them.
How would Miko act if the King of Nowhere sent a Knight to arrest her for something she did on Lord Shojo's lands that the King of Nowhere considered a crime? Would she obediently leave her homeland and go with a foriegn official to a distant land to answer for a capitol crime that was not against the law where you did it? No, because Miko is a hypocrite and frankly, an example of the very worst aspects of Paladins, and the reason a lot of DM's and players shudder at having Paladins in a campaign (not to mention Samurai in a non-asian-themed game).
Not to mention that a foriegn noble taking a group in chains along a main road would probably get a lot of attention, and get Knights of the local kingdom looking into this foriegn slaver. But this is a satire of the very worst of DM behavior: blatant cheating and railroading, so nothing like that is likely.
If I was the DM here, Miko would be on the borderline of losing her Paladinhood, if not having just lost it from that attack being the last straw. Not from any single action, but from a long pattern of behavior that is putting her entire alignment in jeopardy, she's Lawful Neutral who thinks she's Lawful Good because in her eyes Good = Lord Shojo's Laws, and she's got a serious confusion of the difference between Law and Good.
I was so hoping the OotS would have just killed her on the spot, and Belkar could have put her head on a pike and they could have walked on. The strip has been a lot less entertaining since gotten away from dungeon crawls and fighting Xylon to being Miko's (now literal) slaves.
Personally, I'm just waiting for the Miko Railroad to end so the OotS can get back on to what it's good at, and looking forward to the strip where she dies.
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2005-12-01, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Cirin
Personally, I'm happy that the OOTSers didn't kill her.
What I'd kind of would like to see (not that it seems likely to happen) is that once they reach Miko's Lord, it turns out that her culture isn't that different from the OOTSers' after all; it's all about Miko and her "stick up the..." class feature. The Lord would consider things (using Detect Lie as needed) and vindicate the OOTSers, and chastise Miko. Then, OBVIOUSLY (because this is how these things work, don't you know?), the OOTSers would go on a quest to restore balance to the universe, and as punishment Miko would be ordered to go with them, under Roy's command. (And from there, the possibilities are endless.)
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2005-12-01, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Dwarf71
Say Miko won initiative - and does nothing, because she won't attack them while they're flatfooted.
The ogres don't know how to take this, and out of confusion they also do nothing (I doubt there's a game mechanic for this, just a DM call)
The round of noone doing anything is panels 2 and 3 of #215 - the confusion idea is based on what the leader says in panel 4 - which seems to indicate that the battle has started and Miko hasn't attacked yet.
With the first round over, noone's flatfooted, and Miko has no problems with killing the leader.
At least, that's how I read it.<link rel="signature" type="text/hilarious" href="/funnysig.txt" />
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2005-12-01, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I think it would be quite interesting if a Paladin of Freedom showed up. Most likley won't happen, but It would provide some interesting character conflict between Miko and the PoF. By his very code of conduct, he would have to free the Order of the Stick. Then maybe he could accompany the Order to ensure their freedom. Definately won't happen, but it would be interesting, No?
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2005-12-01, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Did Sir Lancelot or Sir Gawain ever need warrants and jurisdiction? Did Roland? Hercules? Odysseus? Theseus? Any Errol Flynn characther? Gandalf?
This isn't Law and Order of the StickWoo, I say woo
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2005-12-01, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I'm surprised that no one (that I've seen...apologies if it's been said and I've missed it) has mentioned the 'hell hath no fury' idea yet - maybe part of the savagery behind Miko's attack comes from ...well, I think a broken heart would be too strong; but if she was starting to have feelings for Roy (bear in mind she may not have been letting them show very much, or be conflicted within herself as to having feelings for someone she's 'supposed to' dislike), Roy's rather brutal rejection could have fuelled her rage. And they do say that all's fair in love and war.
But oh, what a time for V to not have prepared Explosive Runes this morning! :PAvatar by Nemglan. Thank you!
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2005-12-01, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by eof
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2005-12-01, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
V does have invisibility sphere. But she wasn't able to get her hands on the 'good' fly spell.
Anyway, the Order of the Stick broke a universal law, and is being taken to Lord Shojo to be tried for that. That's how I see it, at least.
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2005-12-01, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by NullAshton
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2005-12-01, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by phlip
Avatar by Sneak - The Midnight Son by CeikaNo more a lone wolf, The Midnight Son rides again.Give thanks ye mortals, for he rides on the wings of an angel.Spoiler
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2005-12-01, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Lazarous
Also, being Lawfully aligned does not mean obeying the laws (little "l") of every pissant nation through which you pass. It means adhering to a consistent set of morals, which Miko clearly does.Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS
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2005-12-01, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Simon
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2005-12-01, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Cirin
It's also interesting that everyone thinks Miko captured the OOTSers in another nation, rather than the lawless region just outside Wooden Forest, and that she is somehow breaking the law of the Kingdom of Somewhere when she just personally saved the king from a burning building. Generally, in an absolute monarchy, saving the king's life gives you a free pass to do whatever you want. The fact that the only thing Miko does with that freedom is enforce her Lord's will is about as Lawful as you can get.
If you want to argue that Miko is only borderline Good, go ahead; that is, in many ways the very point of the character and the main thrust of #251. But to say she's not LAWFUL? No. From the description of Lawful:
"Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties."
Let's see...
• Tell the truth: Miko has never lied, to the best of our ability to tell.
• Keep their word: Miko risked her life to keep her word to her lord that she would bring those responsible to justice.
• Respect authority: She certainly respects Shojo's authority, as well as that of her gods. She probably also respected the King of Somewhere, though that was off-panel. She also respected Durkon, who while not strictly an authority does count as an "elder" to Miko. Note this does NOT say, "Obey every law you come across."
• Honor tradition: Such as the traditions of her homeland? Check.
• Judge those who fall short of their duties: Oh hell yes.
Remember, folks, being Lawful has NEVER meant you obey every law for every nation whose borders you cross. You can choose to have a character that acts like that, but it is NOT part of the alignment description. After all, such a character would be required to obey the mandates of an orc chieftain the moment she entered his swamp. They would be seen as wishy-washy and easily swayed, kowtowing to whatever person could assert themselves the strongest.
Most lawful characters, though, will pick a certain set of authorities that they respect and ignore all others as "illegitimate". An LG cleric of Pelor doesn't obey the authority of the High Priest of Vecna, for example. That doesn't make the cleric not Lawful.
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2005-12-01, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
As for your first point, Giant, it was probably the feudal title that confused most of us. Also, in many campaign worlds there exist orders of Paladin who venerate a deity or the concept of Lawful Good, but with secular missions, e.g. enforcing the laws of a Lawful Good monarchy. We also know that Miko a Samurai. This means, at least in real life, that she is a vassal of a feudal lord. This again implies that Shojo has some sort of political standing as well as the authority to order this Sapphire Guard around. Unless, of course, Shojo is merely the head of her order, and another person is her daimyo. Hmm...
As for your other points...all good ones. Miko certainly upholds Lawfulness. Hell, if she were slightly more prejudiced and not so good at tactics and threat assessment, she'd be Lawful Stupid.Spoiler
Stealthy Snake avatar by Dawn
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2005-12-01, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Slibs
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2005-12-01, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Miko haters everywhere seem to be up in arms.
However, take heart, as eventually they will have to make camp - barring more railroad plotting. When that happens, this will occur:
That Night
Durkon will heal the party. Miko, being lawful good, won't really be able to refuse without attacking Durkon -besides, she knows he is a good priest, so that path is auto-paladin loss.
During The Night
Exhausted, people will have to sleep - except for good ol' V, who being an elf needs two hours rest/day. That's a lot of time for hir to play with.
V wakes Haley. Haley, being a high-level rogue with a good dexterity, easily beasts the Escape Artist DC to escape the manacles. Then she pulls a lock pick from her hair to free Belkar and V.
Haley moves like a ghost, retrieving weapons by easily beating Windstrider's and sleeping Miko's Spot/Listen checks.
The three of them work a quick plan. Sure, Haley's limited to sign language, but V is bright enough to catch her meaning. And Belkar may lack wisdom, but not smarts - at least, not cunning for work such as this.
Surprise round
Haley will sneak attack Miko. Read the Giant's post, she put Elan into negative HP, nearly killing him. That puts the paladin into an exclusive club shared only by Nale (from the events of the comic, at any rate). No way is Haley going to let that go.
V kicks off another disintegrate. Giant's batlle description only shows hir casting one, we know V can cast two. Sleeping Miko will get hit and will fail her save, taking 2d6x V's level damage plus Haley's sneak attack
Belkar, goes after the horse, of course, of course. Windstriker may be tough, but Belkar's got the drop, his weapons, and rage (the emotion and the class feature). The horse can't stun him, and unless it has improved grapple (unlikely - last time, the horse had surprise), that tactic won't fly again. I'm not saying that Windstiker's not tough - just that he won't be a match for the little psychopath when he's ready.
Round One
Haley has initiative and sneak attacks Miko again.
Miko goes next, but she's not in a good position. Haley and V know the rules of the game (heck, they've both given lectures on them) and are more that five feet away from her, so she can attack one, but not both, and will make only one attack when she does. Whoever she goes after, the other will take her down, given she's already taken at least 1d6 damage for each of V and Haley's levels. If she goes after Haley, V will likely finish her off this round. If she goes after V, the elf can make the will save vs. stunning fist (since apparently OotS house rules have Stunning Fist using will saves) , Haley will come, flank, and sneak attack.
Round Two
Miko goes down, whichever path she took last round. Because the Oots are good guys, they wake Durkon to heal her (if they didn't kill Nale or Sam, they won't kill her - sorry, Miko haters!). They may even go to Shojo- but it will be the paladin in chains, not them!
Unfortunately for Miko, Belkar is harvesting Windstrider's kidneys right about now.
At least, that's what would happen if the OotS wasn't being railroaded. As it is, something extremely funny will happen instead :)
There - now that everyone's read a blow-by-blow of the uppity one getting her posterior kicked, could we all just chill the heck out and wait for Friday's comic?
In MY day, we didn't have character generation programs. We didn't even have character sheets to photocopy. We had to use ordinary lined paper. And we LIKED it!!
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2005-12-01, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama
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2005-12-01, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I'm sorry to say I think Roy's behaviour in 151 is even more contemptable than his actions in 150. Even if one accepted that there was some basis for his harsh opinion of Miko, that does not mean he was right to disregard his moral responsibility for the destruction of the portal and the subsequent damage to the structure of Reality. Frankly, I had thought, up till then that the other members of the Order were being grossly unfair to Roy when they accused him of cooperating with Miko only because he wanted to 'bone' her. I had thought that while Roy felt some attraction to Miko, he also realized that he and the other members of the Order had a moral obligation to do what they could to make restitution for Elan's destruction of the portal. But apparently I was wrong; when Roy agreed to let Miko arrest the Order, he was simply listening to his 'trouser titan'.
I suspect that after this moral failure on Roy's part, Lord Shojo will insist that Miko monitor and supervise the future actions of the Order of the Stick, simply because Roy has so noticably failed to hold to the standards of Lawful Good. (Lord Shojo is also unlikely to be impressed with Roy's abilities as a strategic planner, once he learns that Roy failed to kill Xykon because he didn't know that every Lich has a phylactery. Why didn't he have this vital piece of information? Didn't Roy bother to research the strengths and weaknesses of the Lich during his lifelong quest to destroy Xykon?) Miko may have to assume a position in some ways similar to that of a probation officer. The Order might have some sort of Geas placed upon them, in order to insure that they follow Miko's directives..
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2005-12-01, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Roy didn't destroy the portal. Elan destryed the portal, and there was no way he could have known that it was a bad thing.
If someone rigs a bomb to my computer, such that it goes off when I read OOTS, I'm the one who set off the bomb, but I had no way of knowing that my actions would lead to bad outcomes.
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2005-12-01, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
You guys are interesting. From reading all the anti-Miko posts that have completely overrun this forum, I can only come to the following conclusion:
Most people here think it's far better to be "nice" than "good."
Case in point, Miko and Belkar.
Belkar can kill innocent people, discuss killing an entire town, stab Roy just for kicks, make sexual advances on Roy even while clearly knowing that it makes him uncomfortable, directly cause the destruction of an inn (and a large portion of the group's treasure), and discuss murdering his family and friends -- AND YOU LOVE HIM!
Miko, on the other hand, seems to be a bit aloof and isn't quite polite to some of the group, follows her orders and arrests them for a crime they DID commit -- AND SUDDENLY SHE'S TERRIBLE!
Come on people! It seems like you would forgive an axe murderer as long as he smiled politely at you, yet condemn a stern man, even if he rescued 500 children from a burning building.
Now THAT'S a bit odd I think. :D
Miko's not that bad... really.
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2005-12-01, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by OldFart
If its:
Elan all is good. Elan can likely help with the escape attampt.
Durkon is bad. He will have sworn or been made to swear to help bring them to Shojo. At the very least he'd have to stop escape attampts.
Belkar is eh... He is just likely to be as useless as tits on a bowl.
Roy is bad. He to would have to put a stop to any escape attampts or at the least argue them out of it.
Miko... well that won't help matters any.
I really doubt there will be any escapes unless Haley breaks herslef free and sneaks off to try to plan a daring rescue attempt.
That Night
Durkon will heal the party. Miko, being lawful good, won't really be able to refuse without attacking Durkon -besides, she knows he is a good priest, so that path is auto-paladin loss.
[quote]During The Night
Exhausted, people will have to sleep - except for good ol' V, who being an elf needs two hours rest/day. That's a lot of time for hir to play with.
V wakes Haley. Haley, being a high-level rogue with a good dexterity, easily beasts the Escape Artist DC to escape the manacles. Then she pulls a lock pick from her hair to free Belkar and V.{/quote]It is possible. But more than likely she would free Roy before she'd free Belkar. Roy can plan, Belkar might just stab her in back and take the opportunity to gut the whole crew whil helpless. There is little to no chance she'd trust him.
Haley moves like a ghost, retrieving weapons by easily beating Windstrider's and sleeping Miko's Spot/Listen checks.
The three of them work a quick plan. Sure, Haley's limited to sign language, but V is bright enough to catch her meaning. And Belkar may lack wisdom, but not smarts - at least, not cunning for work such as this.
Actually the more I think about it there is no reason Miko would even be asleep. there aren't even rules for it...
So the rest of your speculation is likely pointless.;)
EvilEeyore AntiSocialite
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2005-12-01, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Sylvius
Why? Because he has no Wisdom. He is dengerously naive.
He knew it was a bad thing because he knew it was self-destruct. He just didn't know how bad until later.
Elan's not evil. He's just criminally stupid.
Roy, as his leader, is responsible for his actions. Not to say Roy deseres execution, but he certainly should go to Shojo and plead his case.
Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS
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2005-12-01, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I agree with Duraska that Belkar is far worse than Miko.
I'd like to quote a statement Roy made in episode 204, when he explained exactly why he was prepared to cooperate with Miko.
"Elan DID destroy that gate when he set off the self- destruct rune, and we're all accessories because we helped him get there. So we are all going to suck it up and let her take us to her master, where we will do our best to explain the extenuating circumstances."
I respected Roy a lot when he made that statement. It was exactly the sort of thing a lawful good leader would say. I'd like to ask those who are so upset with Miko why they think Roy is right to disregard the statement he made on 204?
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2005-12-01, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Doshi