Girl Genius XXXII: The scientific method at work!

[halfeye]

Klaus is still the scariest kind of villain, one who is doing what he sincerely thinks absolutely must be done for the good of everyone.

My contention is that good men (not bad men) consistently acting upon that position would act as cruelly and unjustly as the greatest tyrants. They might in some respects act even worse. Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under of robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some points be satiated; but those who torment us for their own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to heaven yet at the same time likely to make a Hell of earth.

C.S. Lewis

Well yeah, if you go religious, hell is for the non-religious.

[Rockphed]

Klaus is still the scariest kind of villain, one who is doing what he sincerely thinks absolutely must be done for the good of everyone.

Klaus makes a good antagonist both because he is actually opposed to Agatha rather than being confused or deluded and because the world keeps proving him right. That he has some of the trappings of villainy and has a ruthless streak a mile wide just make him more effective as an antagonist. A lot is made in the comic (at least before sturmhalten and dropping a chicken coop on his face) of the world being better off because of the Baron. At sturmhalten Agatha even plans to turn herself over in the hopes that Klaus can cure her.

[WanderingMist]

Klaus makes a good antagonist both because he is actually opposed to Agatha rather than being confused or deluded and because the world keeps proving him right. That he has some of the trappings of villainy and has a ruthless streak a mile wide just make him more effective as an antagonist. A lot is made in the comic (at least before sturmhalten and dropping a chicken coop on his face) of the world being better off because of the Baron. At sturmhalten Agatha even plans to turn herself over in the hopes that Klaus can cure her.

There's also the fact that after the time skip, his reign is looked on as a lost golden age, and some of his previous enemies are actively trying to put his son in power to try and restore it.

[Traab]

There's also the fact that after the time skip, his reign is looked on as a lost golden age, and some of his previous enemies are actively trying to put his son in power to try and restore it.

Honestly, when the options are total anarchy with endless war and destruction or dictatorship, even a dictator seems a golden age because at least they brought peace. Europa was MISERABLE before the baron took over. A hundred warring duchies with random sci fi weaponry or one dude whose foreign policy is "Dont make me come over there!" and proven strong enough to back it up.

[Shining Wrath]

The choice for Europa was not between benign democracies that were too weak to maintain order and Klaus; it was between dozens of autocrats of various levels of Sparky madboy, and the uber Spark Madboy, Klaus. We don't have any evidence of any place where the rulers were chosen by the ruled pre-Wulfenbach.

Go back to the siege of Mechanicsburg, where random Sparks showed up to conquer Mechanicsburg and Agatha's hand, even after years of Klaus slapping down any Spark who got out of hand.

[geoduck]

The choice for Europa was not between benign democracies that were too weak to maintain order and Klaus; it was between dozens of autocrats of various levels of Sparky madboy, and the uber Spark Madboy, Klaus. We don't have any evidence of any place where the rulers were chosen by the ruled pre-Wulfenbach.

Go back to the siege of Mechanicsburg, where random Sparks showed up to conquer Mechanicsburg and Agatha's hand, even after years of Klaus slapping down any Spark who got out of hand.

And Klaus did not set out to conquer Europa, evidently people just - kept - attacking him, no matter how many times they saw that was a horrible idea.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Welp, just downloaded and installed the full Girl Genius game, and am about to play. I'm quite excited about it...

This was the crowdfunding project that really paid off, and that's before the final product shipped. If the game is as good as the demo suggested, then this will probably be the best project I ever fund...

[Radar]

And Klaus did not set out to conquer Europa, evidently people just - kept - attacking him, no matter how many times they saw that was a horrible idea.

He set out to stop all the wars in Europa. Building an empire was a byproduct of keeping everyone in line. This page is relevant as well as this realization from Gil.

[Shining Wrath]

Prediction: "We don't have to worry about anyone stealing it" is such obvious foreshadowing that maybe it isn't foreshadowing.

Also, we're now looking at the possibility that Albia is sending one fleet too many and leaving herself vulnerable.

[Radar]

Also, we're now looking at the possibility that Albia is sending one fleet too many and leaving herself vulnerable.

Considering how she runs on fumes right now, I worry you might be right. I'd rather she would not be offed, but the danger is real.

[tyckspoon]

Prediction: "We don't have to worry about anyone stealing it" is such obvious foreshadowing that maybe it isn't foreshadowing.

While it's still possible somebody will want to try to steal a random sparky artifact that The Heterodyne is carrying around, 'cause anything The Heterodyne is using/made is probably of value or interesting enough to be valuable to somebody.. at least it isn't specifically Prende's Lantern any more - anybody looking for that one particular time-altering device wouldn't recognize this staff as being the same thing. It actually looks a lot like the lightning-channeling rod.

[Shining Wrath]

While it's still possible somebody will want to try to steal a random sparky artifact that The Heterodyne is carrying around, 'cause anything The Heterodyne is using/made is probably of value or interesting enough to be valuable to somebody.. at least it isn't specifically Prende's Lantern any more - anybody looking for that one particular time-altering device wouldn't recognize this staff as being the same thing. It actually looks a lot like the lightning-channeling rod.

Random passing Spark- not likely to know what it is.

Agents of The Other / Martellus / 50 families still mad at the Baron wanting to keep him frozen? They know what they are stealing, and why.

[Divayth Fyr]

Agents of The Other / Martellus / 50 families still mad at the Baron wanting to keep him frozen? They know what they are stealing, and why.

How? I mean, you can always explain things, but this seems a tough sell. At this point only Albia, Agatha and those told by them (not a lot of people I'd imagine) know what the staff is. You could argue the Other learns via some time travelling shenanigans, but Martellus? The 50 families? Far less likely...

[Gez]

Klaus is still the scariest kind of villain, one who is doing what he sincerely thinks absolutely must be done for the good of everyone.

My contention is that good men (not bad men) consistently acting upon that position would act as cruelly and unjustly as the greatest tyrants. They might in some respects act even worse. Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under of robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some points be satiated; but those who torment us for their own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to heaven yet at the same time likely to make a Hell of earth.

C.S. Lewis

I don't think this quote really applies to Klaus because he's really only concerned with the Sparks and the nobles; and even then he lets them do what they want as long as they play nice: don't ally with The Other, don't attack other people, and you'll be fine. He's not been trying to control what people write/read, or what they eat and drink, or what they do in the bedroom, etc. he just wants things to be peaceful and stable so he can work on his research projects instead of having to micromanage his empire. That's why his motto is "Don't make me come over here".

[lord_khaine]

Here is another key point on the topic.

That C.S. Lewis said something dont automatically make it correct.

[Shining Wrath]

You don't need to know about Prende's Lantern, or its current form post Albia, to know that The Heterodyne wants to free Mechanicsburg, and that interfering with her plans (such as by stealing a magical bauble she always keeps near her) traps the Baron.

[Rodin]

Klaus's rule is more of a "peace through terror". He didn't build a peace, he imposed it from the top down. You will be good, you will be peaceful, or I'm going to come over there and end you.

This proved to be reasonably effective with a major flaw - the terror is all focused on a singular person, and once that person shows the slightest sign of weakness it all comes tumbling down. The many rebellions around Europa during the Siege of Mechanicsburg were engineered, but you can't engineer something like that without great dissatisfaction to begin with. The Knights of Jove added fuel to a fire that had already been smoldering beneath the surface, smothered by the Baron's presence. As soon as he was gone, BOOM!

I'm really liking how the Foglios are setting the stage for Agatha to bring true peace. The Heterodynes before The Boys were needlessly cruel and barbaric, feared even more than other Sparks. Mechanicsburgers love them but everybody else hated them, to the point that the rest of Europa would periodically band together to chase them back to Mechanicsburg. The Boys were the other extreme - too good and heroic to effectively deal with their foes. They went around defeating Sparks in person without any thought of empire building, leaving them with a limited effect that didn't really change the horrible nature of Spark-run Europa. Their reputations were far better than their actual effectiveness.

Agatha is the balance between all these schools of thought. She's charismatic as hell and has the goodness required to get people following her because of a joint wish for the betterment of everyone, rather than simply bowing to someone stronger than them like Klaus. Yet she also has the nastiness required to properly deal with her enemies - she can happily work with Der Kestle which her father and uncle detested. She can be underhanded and nasty if it's truly necessary. Because of this, she will be capable of building a peace from the ground up, instead of just imposing control like the other major Sparks we've seen.

[Rockphed]

Klaus's rule is more of a "peace through terror". He didn't build a peace, he imposed it from the top down. You will be good, you will be peaceful, or I'm going to come over there and end you.

This proved to be reasonably effective with a major flaw - the terror is all focused on a singular person, and once that person shows the slightest sign of weakness it all comes tumbling down. The many rebellions around Europa during the Siege of Mechanicsburg were engineered, but you can't engineer something like that without great dissatisfaction to begin with. The Knights of Jove added fuel to a fire that had already been smoldering beneath the surface, smothered by the Baron's presence. As soon as he was gone, BOOM!

I'm really liking how the Foglios are setting the stage for Agatha to bring true peace. The Heterodynes before The Boys were needlessly cruel and barbaric, feared even more than other Sparks. Mechanicsburgers love them but everybody else hated them, to the point that the rest of Europa would periodically band together to chase them back to Mechanicsburg. The Boys were the other extreme - too good and heroic to effectively deal with their foes. They went around defeating Sparks in person without any thought of empire building, leaving them with a limited effect that didn't really change the horrible nature of Spark-run Europa. Their reputations were far better than their actual effectiveness.

Agatha is the balance between all these schools of thought. She's charismatic as hell and has the goodness required to get people following her because of a joint wish for the betterment of everyone, rather than simply bowing to someone stronger than them like Klaus. Yet she also has the nastiness required to properly deal with her enemies - she can happily work with Der Kestle which her father and uncle detested. She can be underhanded and nasty if it's truly necessary. Because of this, she will be capable of building a peace from the ground up, instead of just imposing control like the other major Sparks we've seen.

I get the impression that Bill and Barry built a peace of sorts. They just had the same problem Klaus did where the peace was founded on their persons rather than any organization they built.

[lord_khaine]

You don't need to know about Prende's Lantern, or its current form post Albia, to know that The Heterodyne wants to free Mechanicsburg, and that interfering with her plans (such as by stealing a magical bauble she always keeps near her) traps the Baron.

Objection. Knowing Agartha. The reasonable assumption is that the new magic stick makes holes in things. Likely in what you love the most or something equally horrible.
And that the safest course of action is to rocket it out of the solar system.

Agatha is the balance between all these schools of thought. She's charismatic as hell and has the goodness required to get people following her because of a joint wish for the betterment of everyone, rather than simply bowing to someone stronger than them like Klaus. Yet she also has the nastiness required to properly deal with her enemies - she can happily work with Der Kestle which her father and uncle detested. She can be underhanded and nasty if it's truly necessary. Because of this, she will be capable of building a peace from the ground up, instead of just imposing control like the other major Sparks we've seen.

I get the impression that Bill and Barry built a peace of sorts. They just had the same problem Klaus did where the peace was founded on their persons rather than any organization they built.

Yeah i disagree as well. We have not seen anything to hint that the Boys didnt end threats permanently when required.
According to Klaus. What they did looked to be working. They did build a peace. It just didnt outlive the Boys or the Others war.

Hence i do see any reason Agartha would be able to solve things differently. First of all her main focus is Mechanisburg.
If anyone are to bring actual peace its Gil and Tarvek. Who are at least vaguely interested in ruling. And in being good at it.

And secondly. They in turn still is stuck with the actual main problem. All the dam sparks, and their ability to build doomsday weapons out of scrap.

In the end, its Othar who got the right of it.

[Divayth Fyr]

In the end, its Othar who got the right of it.

Did he though? We know very little about the spark, and it seems random people breaking through happens every once in a while. He might solve the issue temporarily, but it is unlikely new sparks won't pop up. Imagine the only one running around is someone like Vapnoople. What would you use to fight his creations?

[Traab]

Objection. Knowing Agartha. The reasonable assumption is that the new magic stick makes holes in things. Likely in what you love the most or something equally horrible.
And that the safest course of action is to rocket it out of the solar system.





Yeah i disagree as well. We have not seen anything to hint that the Boys didnt end threats permanently when required.
According to Klaus. What they did looked to be working. They did build a peace. It just didnt outlive the Boys or the Others war.

Hence i do see any reason Agartha would be able to solve things differently. First of all her main focus is Mechanisburg.
If anyone are to bring actual peace its Gil and Tarvek. Who are at least vaguely interested in ruling. And in being good at it.

And secondly. They in turn still is stuck with the actual main problem. All the dam sparks, and their ability to build doomsday weapons out of scrap.

In the end, its Othar who got the right of it.

I think the real solution is to build several more bastions along the lines of paris or england. Meaning powerful mostly sane sparks who keep control of a fairly sizable territory, and also are preferably allied with each other. The problem is there are too many players on the board so its endless chaos because as soon as one threat is put down another is rising and by the time you go through the list the first threat has recovered. Have a few areas like the barons turf, mechanicsburg and its surroundings, and a few more mini empires that can rein in their own problems and not pick fights with each other and you have a more solid setup than the single power controlling everything until he has a bellyache and it all falls apart. It came up in a fanfic I read for my hero academia, where for decades we had a single superman figure acting as the symbol of peace, the pillar on which everything was supported. But pillars crumble, what you need, is a foundation. A firm and secure base upon which you can build.

[lord_khaine]

Did he though? We know very little about the spark, and it seems random people breaking through happens every once in a while. He might solve the issue temporarily, but it is unlikely new sparks won't pop up. Imagine the only one running around is someone like Vapnoople. What would you use to fight his creations?

Sure he did. His solution was to kill ALL sparks.
If Vapnoodle 2.0 is around, then obviously not ALL sparks are dead.

I think the real solution is to build several more bastions along the lines of paris or england. Meaning powerful mostly sane sparks who keep control of a fairly sizable territory, and also are preferably allied with each other. The problem is there are too many players on the board so its endless chaos because as soon as one threat is put down another is rising and by the time you go through the list the first threat has recovered. Have a few areas like the barons turf, mechanicsburg and its surroundings, and a few more mini empires that can rein in their own problems and not pick fights with each other and you have a more solid setup than the single power controlling everything until he has a bellyache and it all falls apart. It came up in a fanfic I read for my hero academia, where for decades we had a single superman figure acting as the symbol of peace, the pillar on which everything was supported. But pillars crumble, what you need, is a foundation. A firm and secure base upon which you can build.

The problem is just as much. That the setup there. Several independent fiefs run by sparks. Basically what lead to the whole mess the Baron inherited in the first place.
Just kinda changes there are several points of failure, as just one of those fiefs have to be taken over by the wrong spark to screw everything over.
The point with the foundation analog here, is moles with industrial drills and dynamite.

I do think that as things are, it is close to impossibly to have stability without someone like Albia, Klaus or the Master, to act like a Pillar of stability.
Something like Albia's sisterhood of God-Queens are likely the closest thing to a stable solution. As an ascended spark is harder to remove than a normal one.
And it seems like the Queens had less of the regular spark rivalry thing.

[Divayth Fyr]

Sure he did. His solution was to kill ALL sparks.
If Vapnoodle 2.0 is around, then obviously not ALL sparks are dead.

His plan is "kill all the sparks around, suicide once I'm the only one left". Which is both horrible, considering sparks can break through as children, and doesn't work, since we can expect new sparks to be born after he finishes his quest (and himself)...

EDIT: actually doesn't even need new sparks to be born - all you need is someone who haven't yet broken through...

[Shining Wrath]

His plan is "kill all the sparks around, suicide once I'm the only one left". Which is both horrible, considering sparks can break through as children, and doesn't work, since we can expect new sparks to be born after he finishes his quest (and himself)...

Furthermore, so long as there are Flames, there can be Queens, and just because Albia seems to be mostly benign doesn't guarantee that the next one won't be Lucrezia.

Plus there are time-travel shenanigans and a Spark could come back from Elsewhen after Othar think's he's done, and there you go.

Othar's a homicidal madman, but a charming one. That actually makes him worse.

[geoduck]

Furthermore, so long as there are Flames, there can be Queens, and just because Albia seems to be mostly benign doesn't guarantee that the next one won't be Lucrezia.

Plus there are time-travel shenanigans and a Spark could come back from Elsewhen after Othar think's he's done, and there you go.

Othar's a homicidal madman, but a charming one. That actually makes him worse.

He's a specific example of the fact that Girl Genius is great fun to read, but actually living in the universe it depicts would be horrific.

[Radar]

The Spark is heavily connected with the inherent desire to be recognized and to dominate over ones rivals - to show them! Show them ALL!!!!!111

If you are powerful, you can put a lid on that like Klaus did, but a long-term solution needs to be different. What is needed, is a way to channel that inner drive to something peaceful. Corbetite order has a lot of sparks in their ranks and they are working together for the benefit of the whole organization and by extension everyone around. There is for sure a lot of rivalry between all those sparks, but they compete in making better train engines and other inventions for the railways.

In Ye Olden Times conquest was the primary way of proving worth of your creations, but it does not have to be. Competitiveness can be directed differently and recognition could be gained from some prestigious awards, laudations in newspapers over the whole Europa and so on. There will also always be outright conflict, so there have to be ways of letting the steam off and resolving them without using armies. On one hand, international organizations and common law give a platform for clashing of interests without leveling whole cities in the process. On the other hand, one can build dedicated arenas for death machine competitions in various categories, which could be made into a popular sport.

[lord_khaine]

His plan is "kill all the sparks around, suicide once I'm the only one left". Which is both horrible, considering sparks can break through as children, and doesn't work, since we can expect new sparks to be born after he finishes his quest (and himself)..

Your quite wrong. His Goal is to kill ALL the sparks. Not all the sparks around.

He's a specific example of the fact that Girl Genius is great fun to read, but actually living in the universe it depicts would be horrific.

No. Random Spark #3269 Dastardly Damian, who want to replace your entire nerve system with brass to PROVE its superior conductivity is what makes the universe horrific.
Othar is one of the very few bright spots.

Certainly, when caught by Damian its Othar your praying will show up.
There is a reason basically all of Europe see him as a hero.

[Divayth Fyr]

Your quite wrong. His Goal is to kill ALL the sparks. Not all the sparks around.

He seems to operate under the assumption that killing the sparks can lead to eradicating the very concept. But it seems sparks can be randomly born to regular people (not unlike muggleborn in Harry Potter), so the idea becomes iffy at best. Unless he will kill off all of humanity, which would indeed solve the issue.

[Shining Wrath]

"This bear does not approve of bearskin shako".
"This bear ... concurs."
British guard: swallows hard.

Zeetha should have been a little more selective in what she taught Higgs.

Besides which, do we have a timeline problem here? They've been together since before the Mechanicsburg freeze, which is 3 years, right?

[Ailurus]

Besides which, do we have a timeline problem here? They've been together since before the Mechanicsburg freeze, which is 3 years, right?

Not really a timeline problem. Agatha popped out in the Refuge of Storms with Tweedle two and a half years after the Baron froze everything. And while a lot of stuff has happened since then, the timeline seems to suggest it was very fast:

1) Clankshead to Paris - definitely still winter, given snow at Clankshead and on the tracks so not that much time.

2) Paris and the library - I think a week or two tops? Voltaire put Agatha on a very strict timeline in the city though Colette could have extended that some.

3) Paris to England - seems like you can do that flight in a day or so

4) England to the lab, couple days top I think.

5) Chaos in the lab - again, just a couple days

6) England to Rat Island? Unknown, but can't be that long probably?

7) Time on Rat Island - a day or so for getting on the island and getting into the ruins, and then just a few hours before the ascension fight

8) Rat Island to England? Unknown

(I don't think I forgot any arcs?)

So, total time since the mirror is probably 1.5-2 months. So "over two years" fits the timeframe good enough I think.