Baldur's Gate 3 II: The Urge for a Second Playthrough

[Psyren]

I believe that Gale was in the city looking for help from another wizard, whether it be the one who runs Sorcerous Sunderies or somebody else who happens to be in the area.

Thanks, that helps - how did he end up inside a waypoint? Was that his attempt at escaping the crash?

[LCP]

Yeah, you can ask him about that - he says it was his attempt at surviving the fall.

It does all raise the question, why did the nautiloid only pick up tadpole victims with interesting backstories/fabulous heroic powers?

[Keltest]

Thanks, that helps - how did he end up inside a waypoint? Was that his attempt at escaping the crash?

Yes. He tells you as much when you recruit him, if you ask. He saw the rune and tried to fast travel to it. Not in those words as such, but thats the effect in practice. Between the weakening of his powers and the circumstances of falling to his doom, he didn't do it quite right.

Yeah, you can ask him about that - he says it was his attempt at surviving the fall.

It does all raise the question, why did the nautiloid only pick up tadpole victims with interesting backstories/fabulous heroic powers?

Implicitly, those with above average abilities are the ones that were able to survive, either through their own means or the Guardian's protection.

[Psyren]

Yeah, you can ask him about that - he says it was his attempt at surviving the fall.

Yes. He tells you as much when you recruit him, if you ask. He saw the rune and tried to fast travel to it. Not in those words as such, but thats the effect in practice. Between the weakening of his powers and the circumstances of falling to his doom, he didn't do it quite right.

Thanks!

It does all raise the question, why did the nautiloid only pick up tadpole victims with interesting backstories/fabulous heroic powers?

Implicitly, those with above average abilities are the ones that were able to survive, either through their own means or the Guardian's protection.

There's also a bit of destiny/divine intervention involved, judging by Elminster's comments and the Song of Balduran (which I view in-universe as being a sort of Legend Lore.) Oh, and Withers, of course.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well I went for Gale's romance scene, and the list of things to imagine is pretty funny. It also explores probably the only interesting part of the entire '****ing Mystra' thing, that being that Gale seems to link magic and romance together.

Maybe I should add him to my party, see if he's got a Summon Chocolates spell.

(I'm also considering doing a Warlock/Sorcerer or Warlock/Wizard multi-class to represent him teaching me proper magic. Probably the latter at level 1 to nab some utility spells).

[Errorname]

It does all raise the question, why did the nautiloid only pick up tadpole victims with interesting backstories/fabulous heroic powers?

There are a lot more people abducted than just the party, the party are just people who were able to escape during the attack and survive the crash. You see a lot of folks get abducted in the opening who don't survive, and there's a lot of bodies in the wreckage.

The Chosen's plans require infections on a truly massive scale, so catching some dangerous people in the net isn't that shocking.

[Cikomyr2]

Well I went for Gale's romance scene, and the list of things to imagine is pretty funny. It also explores probably the only interesting part of the entire '****ing Mystra' thing, that being that Gale seems to link magic and romance together.

I always saw Mystra's romances with wizards being more of an analogy for their love at mastering the Weave. She is interested first and foremost who love Magic for Magic's sake, and dedicated their entire being in understanding the Weave for its own pleasure.

She cannot help but be seduced by that sort of exceptionally brilliant mind who dedicated themselves to what she is ultimately about. She's not the goddess of Love or carnal passion, but she loves the Weave with every fiber of its being, and thus feels a connection to mortals who share that love.

Ill be honest, i do not even understand why Sune would have sex with her Chosen. If anything, i think she's more the kind to play Cupid for her Chosen and cheer them in their "conquest" than someone who indulges with mortals.

[Anonymouswizard]

I always saw Mystra's romances with wizards being more of an analogy for their love at mastering the Weave. She is interested first and foremost who love Magic for Magic's sake, and dedicated their entire being in understanding the Weave for its own pleasure.

Honestly I don't really care, I prefer the divine to stay very much in their place but what matters in the game is how it relates to Gale's character arc. Which is that he ****ed up his life trying to impress an ex in a very questionable relationship, but gets told everything will be fine and she'll accept him again if he abandons the new life as an adventurer he's just started to build. Mystra is honestly as good as anybody for that role.

Honestly Gale's probably the only Origin companion with a mostly nonpolitical storyline, it's more about whether his need for acceptance drives him towards people who might destroy his life. I just find it a shame that it ended up attached to Ed Greenwood Jnr.

(No, I'm not going to discuss the other characters' storylines, I don't see them as board appropriate.)

[Cikomyr2]

Honestly I don't really care, I prefer the divine to stay very much in their place but what matters in the game is how it relates to Gale's character arc. Which is that he ****ed up his life trying to impress an ex in a very questionable relationship, but gets told everything will be fine and she'll accept him again if he abandons the new life as an adventurer he's just started to build. Mystra is honestly as good as anybody for that role.

Honestly Gale's probably the only Origin companion with a mostly nonpolitical storyline, it's more about whether his need for acceptance drives him towards people who might destroy his life. I just find it a shame that it ended up attached to Ed Greenwood Jnr.

(No, I'm not going to discuss the other characters' storylines, I don't see them as board appropriate.)

How about the romance he has for Mystra is an analogy for his thirst for Knowledge for Knowledge's sake. Or its a love of magic for magic's sake.

High wizardry like Elminster and Gale practiced is like doing high research. Its studying the realm of possibility, and the infinite ways the Weave can be made into magnificience. "To be loved by Mystra" can be a literal thing, but it also can mean being "in the zone" when pushing his research. Its about weaving the greatest and best of magic, this is being within Mystra's embrace.

Gale sinned badly against this ideal. He's literally a Mad Scientist who went Too Far, trying to recreate the one moment in history where Magic Failed, thinking it was an act of love. Again, see it as a scientist trying to recreate the Alpha-Omega Bomb purely for the "intellectual exercise". Said scientist may not have the ill intent, but he ignored the wisdom of his contemporaries and went ahead with his selfish pursuit of recreating the most destructive aspect of what he loves.

He is left with a choice. He can decides that Mystra's love is more important than his life (i.e. did he actually create this bomb only for Knowledge Sake?), or he can decides to spurn his back on Magic for Magic's sake (Mystra) and instead seek to remake the world as he sees fit.


Anyway, thats how ive always read these godly interactions. Because if it really only means that he f***ed Mystra, its a lot less interesting.

[Errorname]

Honestly Gale's probably the only Origin companion with a mostly nonpolitical storyline, it's more about whether his need for acceptance drives him towards people who might destroy his life. I just find it a shame that it ended up attached to Ed Greenwood Jnr.

(No, I'm not going to discuss the other characters' storylines, I don't see them as board appropriate.)

I genuinely struggle to see how the other companion stories are real world political in the sense that discussing them would be inappropriate. Something like Vlaakith the Lich Queen and her astral dragon riders are not a real world organization and they aren't intrinsically allegorical for specific real world groups either.

[Psyren]

I always saw Mystra's romances with wizards being more of an analogy for their love at mastering the Weave. She is interested first and foremost who love Magic for Magic's sake, and dedicated their entire being in understanding the Weave for its own pleasure.

She cannot help but be seduced by that sort of exceptionally brilliant mind who dedicated themselves to what she is ultimately about. She's not the goddess of Love or carnal passion, but she loves the Weave with every fiber of its being, and thus feels a connection to mortals who share that love.

Ill be honest, i do not even understand why Sune would have sex with her Chosen. If anything, i think she's more the kind to play Cupid for her Chosen and cheer them in their "conquest" than someone who indulges with mortals.

The problem I have with this sort of passive interpretation is twofold: First, Gale shows that this kind of dalliance can clearly have a negative impact on the mortals themselves; it's not merely a metaphor for their mastery of magic itself, it's an act of passion that can breed feelings of obsession, resentment and abandonment like any other short-lived fling. Gale himself describes feeling as though he were "used and discarded," if you romance him and ask him if he still has feelings for Mystra, and there are parallels here between her and a previous newly-minted Chosen (Sammaster) who similarly was driven to rather dark places and magics by a seeming need to try and impress her.

And second - I haven't gone through every bit of Greenwood's canon on the subject or anything, but all the examples I'm aware of concerning Mystra's "love for those who master the Weave" seems to be or at least have been exclusive to those practitioners of magic who identify as male. Elminster, Sammaster, Gale, Khelben, Azuth and Savras (as mortals)... in one of his rare moments of piercing clarity, Minsc comments on this trend in the game itself, pointing out that male Wychlaran might be so rare because it was probably best to hide young boys who were talented in magic from her. He seemingly meant that jokingly but it felt like one of those "saying the quiet part out loud" moments.

For Mystra to continue making a habit of this is therefore at best irresponsible.

[Anonymouswizard]

I genuinely struggle to see how the other companion stories are real world political in the sense that discussing them would be inappropriate. Something like Vlaakith the Lich Queen and her astral dragon riders are not a real world organization and they aren't intrinsically allegorical for specific real world groups either.

Spoiler

Show

I see massive similarities between Lae'zel's situation and that of the loyal worker drone in a large company.

Shadowheart's situation is allegory for actual religious cults asking you to give up your life.

Wyll's, again, is about toxic employer/employee relationships. As is Karlach's under the heart problems (she kind of has two stories going on).

Astarion is much more tenuous, and the best link is actually parent/child relationships rather than anything political. I probably got false positives from gay vampire stories.

It's like how you can't discuss the Tieflings, especially by Act 3, without delving into real world treatment of refugees.

Not that being political is bad of course, the first game revolves around a war profiteering scheme and is better for it.

[Zevox]

Ill be honest, i do not even understand why Sune would have sex with her Chosen. If anything, i think she's more the kind to play Cupid for her Chosen and cheer them in their "conquest" than someone who indulges with mortals.

I feel like it's because you're thinking of cause and effect backwards, compared to what I am anyway. Sune wouldn't sleep with someone because they're her Chosen, she would anoint someone as her Chosen because she's fallen in love with them, and someone able to capture her heart would be the only one worthy of being her Chosen. That leading to her possibly sleeping with them would just be the natural consequence of falling in love with them. At least, that's how I'd see that working for her.

Sharess is the one who would just sleep with her Chosen just because she is basically the Goddess of Sex (technically Hedonism and Sensual Fulfillment, but obviously that would include sex), so it'd be more surprising for her not to do that.

Gale sinned badly against this ideal. He's literally a Mad Scientist who went Too Far, trying to recreate the one moment in history where Magic Failed, thinking it was an act of love. Again, see it as a scientist trying to recreate the Alpha-Omega Bomb purely for the "intellectual exercise". Said scientist may not have the ill intent, but he ignored the wisdom of his contemporaries and went ahead with his selfish pursuit of recreating the most destructive aspect of what he loves.

Uh, that's not actually what he did, though. His aim was to restore what he thought was a fragment of the original Weave, Mystryl's Weave, to the modern Mystra. Which would probably be fine, if that were what it was.

Spoiler

Show

But it wasn't - it was a piece of Karsus' Weave, which never fully formed and was as unstable and power-hungry as he was.

This was born out of his hubris in a way, his desire to learn magic that Mystra has placed beyond mortal understanding - probably referring to the magic she's banned, i.e. 10th level+ spells. Which, ironically, were banned as a result of Karsus' Folly. But still, what he actually did wasn't anything that he had any reason to believe was risking the kind of danger that it ultimately did.

I genuinely struggle to see how the other companion stories are real world political in the sense that discussing them would be inappropriate. Something like Vlaakith the Lich Queen and her astral dragon riders are not a real world organization and they aren't intrinsically allegorical for specific real world groups either.

Yeah, same. I could maybe see stretching the fact that Shadowheart's is inherently about her religious faith into believing that was board-inappropriate, except the religions involved are entirely fictional and without any clear real-world parallels, which makes them board-okay. And the rest I can't even find a way to stretch into anything like that, they're just fantasy stories as usual.

[Psyren]

I think it's possible to discuss any of the game's themes while staying in the realm of fiction personally.

I feel like it's because you're thinking of cause and effect backwards, compared to what I am anyway. Sune wouldn't sleep with someone because they're her Chosen, she would anoint someone as her Chosen because she's fallen in love with them, and someone able to capture her heart would be the only one worthy of being her Chosen. That leading to her possibly sleeping with them would just be the natural consequence of falling in love with them. At least, that's how I'd see that working for her.

Sharess is the one who would just sleep with her Chosen just because she is basically the Goddess of Sex (technically Hedonism and Sensual Fulfillment, but obviously that would include sex), so it'd be more surprising for her not to do that.

Agreed.

Uh, that's not actually what he did, though. His aim was to restore what he thought was a fragment of the original Weave, Mystryl's Weave, to the modern Mystra. Which would probably be fine, if that were what it was.

Spoiler

Show

But it wasn't - it was a piece of Karsus' Weave, which never fully formed and was as unstable and power-hungry as he was.

This was born out of his hubris in a way, his desire to learn magic that Mystra has placed beyond mortal understanding - probably referring to the magic she's banned, i.e. 10th level+ spells. Which, ironically, were banned as a result of Karsus' Folly. But still, what he actually did wasn't anything that he had any reason to believe was risking the kind of danger that it ultimately did.

What he arguably should have done was ask her first, but... that would have ruined the surprise I guess? Though one wonders how the hell he managed to avoid her Divine Sense until it was too late, given that his thoughts would have been on Her Weave the entire time (to the point that that's what he thought he was messing with.)

Though having said that - Divine Sense must have holes you could drive a truck through or Cyric and Shar's gambit wouldn't have worked in the first place.

...

Anyway, I'm in Act 2 and I ran into a rather nasty bug due to having both Minthara and Halsin in my party (Minthara Good Recruitment mod.)

Spoiler

Show

I went back to Act 1 to deal with the creche that I had skipped on my way to the Shadowlands and of course, both Halsin and Minthara would rather stay at camp in Act 2. It turned out that sending them both away resulted in the game only seeing Minthara as the viable companion and killing off Halsin AND the Tieflings. No sooner had I gone through the entire creche and returned to act 2 than I saw Halsin's corpse on the ground near my campfire, unable to be rezzed by Withers, and thinking it had been slain by goblins.

I reloaded an hours-earlier save and, through trial and error, figured out a way to take Minthara back with me to Act 1 while Halsin stayed behind in Act 2, which kept him alive. I'm not back in Act 2 and I've taken care of every other sidequest before the Temple of Shar, including rescuing the Tieflings and Ironhand Gnomes, saving Rolan, finding Arabella, tuning Karlach's engine etc etc.Bit of a pain but now I'm full steam ahead.

Lesson learned - I won't be leaving Act 1 without completing the creche first on future playthroughs. About the only benefit I can see to having done the Underdark first (aside from the XP) is that the Lathanderite amulet I found down there has some funny dialogue regarding the Lathander temple, but that's not nearly enough for me to justify breaking the narrative this way in the future. (Also, weirdly, for the giant zombie bartender, stories about the Underdark seem to have a lower Performance DC for some reason.)

[Anonymouswizard]

Couldn't bring myself to play more Act 1 so it's back to Act 3. And I run into a conversation which is lagging after every line so I alt-F4ed and can't be asked to go back to that conversation right now.

Guess I'm rerolling again. Went for a Wood Elf Monk because what the Avernus I might as well go with that movement stacking idea. Need to see if I can find a longsword for that sweet 1d10 damage.

ETA: annoying bug? I decided to slightly alter my character's appearance and so went to the party camp immediately after the tutorial. Apparently this means Shadowheart leaves the beach, so hooray I have to reload!

[Errorname]

annoying bug? I decided to slightly alter my character's appearance and so went to the party camp immediately after the tutorial. Apparently this means Shadowheart leaves the beach, so hooray I have to reload!

Not a bug. Leaving the beach area without interacting with Shadowheart causes her to wake up on her own. Since she's easily the most essential companion plotwise there's a lot of opportunities to recruit her later on and you can still get a full party pretty quickly.

[Anonymouswizard]

Not a bug. Leaving the beach area without interacting with Shadowheart causes her to wake up on her own. Since she's easily the most essential companion plotwise there's a lot of opportunities to recruit her later on and you can still get a full party pretty quickly.

It's annoying because you can decide you don't like a decision you made and take the first chance you get to change it, and the game decides to punish you for it.

[Errorname]

It's annoying because you can decide you don't like a decision you made and take the first chance you get to change it, and the game decides to punish you for it.

They didn't design the sequence with the Mirror in mind, and it's barely a punishment. Shadowheart's an important companion, they won't let you miss her, she's just got a bit of a head start now.

[Psyren]

It's annoying because you can decide you don't like a decision you made and take the first chance you get to change it, and the game decides to punish you for it.

It's hardly a punishment, she just makes her way to the Grove without you. Besides, you get even more content/dialogue out of it.

For example, go find Lae'zel and then recruit her and she'll be a lot snarkier for a while.

[warty goblin]

Shadowheart is like 12 feet from the nautilus, recruiting her takes what, an extra 45 seconds?

[Anonymouswizard]

Shadowheart is like 12 feet from the nautilus, recruiting her takes what, an extra 45 seconds?

Yes, she's right there, but when there's something you really want to change getting the 'oh you abandoned me' result is just insulting. I know it's due to appearance changing being a later addition, no that doesn't mean I'm willing to excuse it.

I've also had the game crash multiple times right after the fight outside the grove, which punts said fight straight from 'fun' to 'incredibly frustrating', particularly when swingy initiative and attack rolls means your monk can potentially go down in a single round.

[Psyren]

There's a unique rest sequence if you rest alone IIRC. Not worth delaying Shadowheart's recruitment for me personally but...

[Errorname]

Yes, she's right there, but when there's something you really want to change getting the 'oh you abandoned me' result is just insulting. I know it's due to appearance changing being a later addition, no that doesn't mean I'm willing to excuse it.

That's not what happens? If you leave the beach without recruiting her, she gets a head start on you, but she'll meet you at the Druid Grove and she's not like angry at you or anything.

[Psyren]

I'm running through the final area of Act 2 and Minthara still has dialogue about Wyll:

Spoiler

Show

I went both ways with Mizora - flushing her (damning Wyll in the process) and saving her. Minthara is oddly morose about the former, while being scathing and snippy about the latter.

It's like... they recorded all this dialogue. Why did they think we wouldn't want to hear it? Bless the modding community.

Also,

Spoiler: Durge content

Show

For those who don't know, the pod next to Mizora's was yours, if you're Durge. Looking at it gives you an image of bashing your head on the inside of it to break free. If Astarion is with you, he can confirm that's your blood on the inside. (He did so saucily for me, having slept together - I'm not sure if his dialogue here is the same if you haven't.)

No Party Limit continues to shine. I got dialogue from Minthara in the tower vs. Z'rell, dialogue from Lae'zel down below, dialogue from Wyll thanks to Zevlor and Mizora, the Astarion interaction with the pod mentioned in the spoiler, and snarky comments from Jaheira throughout.

EDIT: While I was poking around down there I remembered an exchange from the previous thread:

And Vecna is a Greyhawk deity, not a Realms one, so don't expect to see him.

Turns out there's a book in Ketheric's boss area, underneath Gortash's Grand Design book, that mentions Vecna explicitly. Guess he's canon to the Realms after all.

The Guardian also refers to Myrkul as "God of Necromancy" so I'm not even sure Velsharoon is still around, or still has that portfolio if he is.

[diplomancer]

I'm running through the final area of Act 2 and Minthara still has dialogue about Wyll:

Spoiler

Show

I went both ways with Mizora - flushing her (damning Wyll in the process) and saving her. Minthara is oddly morose about the former, while being scathing and snippy about the latter.

It's like... they recorded all this dialogue. Why did they think we wouldn't want to hear it? Bless the modding community.

Yes, bless the modding community, but can't you actually have her and Wyll and Karlach by...

Spoiler

Show

not defeating her nor the Tieflings, ignoring the Grove conflict entirely. Yes, this kills the Tieflings, but if Wyll and Karlach don't see it, they don't seem to mind

?

[Eldan]

Just went back from Act II to the Gith créche. Huh. They really changed Githyanki quite a lot for this game. I don't entirely hate it, but seeing them all in such uniform armours and with military discipline is weird.

[Cikomyr2]

Just went back from Act II to the Gith créche. Huh. They really changed Githyanki quite a lot for this game. I don't entirely hate it, but seeing them all in such uniform armours and with military discipline is weird.

As someone who learned 95% of their understanding of githyanki culture with this game, what are the biggest changes in your opinion?

[Eldan]

The clothing was quite obvious to me. Planescape said that Githyanki are quite.... wild and individualistic. The example pictures have them all dressed in about eight different colours and six different patterns.

Edit: they were of course also far more powerful back then. Every Githyanki can cast Planeshift, from level 1.

Also, from what I've noticed when looking at the monastery... it actually says that one of the highest tenets of Githyanki society is that no Githyanki can kill another, unless it is commanded by the queen. So that trainer training the Youths would be very, very dead himself.

PPS:
"The Githyanki consider personal freedom and individuality of the highest importance. While their history of enslavement is long past, it shapes all their current actions and attitudes. Most githyanki would choose death over surrender if defeat meant captivity."

It goes on to say that they are enormously focused on flamboyant appearance. Their fighting styles are highly individual, and each establishes their own tricks and flourishes. They highly value art and decorate themselves with feathers, gems, trophies, and each warrior paints and carves his own armour and weapons.

And they highly value free speech and free movement, and no leader may deprive their underlings of such. Soldiers may always speak their mind and they may even ignore orders, but then they will face the death penalty for failure. Military units are based on personal respect, and the Gith may leave or join units or raiding parties as they please.

[Psyren]

Yes, bless the modding community, but can't you actually have her and Wyll and Karlach by...

Spoiler

Show

not defeating her nor the Tieflings, ignoring the Grove conflict entirely. Yes, this kills the Tieflings, but if Wyll and Karlach don't see it, they don't seem to mind

?

Point, but even that route would have cost me dialogue. Minthara has commented on my upgrading Karlach's engine in Act 2 for instance, which can't happen if the Tieflings are sacrificed in Act 1.

Just went back from Act II to the Gith créche. Huh. They really changed Githyanki quite a lot for this game. I don't entirely hate it, but seeing them all in such uniform armours and with military discipline is weird.

I can't speak to the TSR-era Githyanki, but the way they're portrayed in this game seem to line up with their 3.0 Manual of the Planes entry:

"They enjoy elaborate dress and baroque armor...Like dwarves, githyanki are craftmasters, although they focus exclusively on items of warfare. Their items are distinctive, and non-githyanki who acquire them run the risk of immediate retribution should they encounter githyanki. Githyanki weapons are usually greatswords, bastard swords, and other particularly large-bladed weapons of special githyanki manufacture."

Edit:

Also, from what I've noticed when looking at the monastery... it actually says that one of the highest tenets of Githyanki society is that no Githyanki can kill another, unless it is commanded by the queen. So that trainer training the Youths would be very, very dead himself.

I don't actually think there's a contradiction there. The ones who clear training and have been accepted into society can't kill each other, sure; those are after all the ones potentially strong enough to become food for Vlaakith. But the younglings who haven't "graduated" not being seen as true Githyanki yet and thus fair game for culling could still fit with that mindset.

Minthara actually has some great dialogue on this too - contrasting Githyanki and Drow society, and pointing out that (Menzoberranzan) Drow are a lot more chaotic than Githyanki because they're encouraged to vie with one another for Lolth's favor, which lends itself to frequent backstabbery even at the highest echelons of their society.

I do agree that they seem to have pushed Githyanki to be more Lawful Evil though, but that's not actually a huge shift from 3.0 where they were "Any Evil."

[Eldan]

Pretty sure Planescape casts them as chaotic, with a strong focus on personal freedom.