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2024-01-14, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Iron Chef classic, Neanderthal
Originally Posted by Piotyr Icevein
Piotyr Icevein
LG Neanderthal
Paladin 2 / Cleric 3 / Divine Agent 10 / Ordained Champion 5
Spoiler: Pedantic Level BreakdownPaladin 1-2 / Cleric 1-3 / Divine Agent 1-4 / Ordained Champion 1-5 / Divine Champion 5-10
Spoiler: Hit Dice2d10+3d8+5d8+10d8
Spoiler: Level TableLevel Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Reflex Save Will Save Skills Feats Bonus Feats Class Features 1st Paladin 1 2 0 0 8: {+1} Concentration: 1; {+1} Diplomacy: 1; {+4} Knowledge (Religion): 4; {+2} Sense Motive: 2; Nemesis Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Favored Enemy (Undead) 2nd Paladin 2 3 0 0 2: {+1} Concentration: 2; Diplomacy: 1; {+1} Knowledge (Religion): 5; Sense Motive: 2; Divine Grace 3rd Cleric 2 5 0 2 2: Concentration: 2; Diplomacy: 1; {+1} Knowledge (Religion): 6; {+1} Sense Motive: 3; Extra Turning War Domain: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Law Devotion (Law Domain Trade) Turn Undead, Domains: Law, Good 4th Cleric 3 6 0 3 2: Concentration: 2; {+1} Diplomacy: 2; {+1} Knowledge (Religion): 7; Sense Motive: 3; 5th Cleric 4 6 1 3 2: {+1} Concentration: 3; Diplomacy: 2; Knowledge (Religion): 7; Sense Motive: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 1; 6th Divine Agent 4 6 1 5 4: Concentration: 3; Diplomacy: 2; Knowledge (Religion): 7; Sense Motive: 3; {+4} Spellcraft: 5; Stand Still Granted domain (War) 7th Divine Agent 5 6 1 6 4: {+2} Concentration: 5; {+2} Diplomacy: 4; Knowledge (Religion): 7; Sense Motive: 3; Spellcraft: 5; Contact 8th Divine Agent 6/1 7 2 6 4: Concentration: 5; {+2} Diplomacy: 6; Knowledge (Religion): 7; {+2} Sense Motive: 5; Spellcraft: 5; Menacing aura, Godly gift (Magic Circle Against Evil) 9th Divine Agent 7/2 7 2 7 4: {+1} Concentration: 6; {+1} Diplomacy: 7; {+1} Knowledge (Religion): 8; {+1} Sense Motive: 6; Spellcraft: 5; Practiced Spellcaster Altered appearance 10th Ordained Champion 8/3 9 2 9 2: Concentration: 6; Diplomacy: 7; Knowledge (Religion): 8; {+2} Ride: 2; Sense Motive: 6; Spellcraft: 5; Ordained Champion Combat Feats: Improved Critical, Power Attack Bonus domain (Glory), Combat feats, Continued advancement, Modified spontaneous casting 11th Ordained Champion 9/4 10 2 10 2: Concentration: 6; Diplomacy: 7; Knowledge (Religion): 8; {+2} Ride: 4; Sense Motive: 6; Spellcraft: 5; Ordained Champion: Diehard Smite 12th Ordained Champion 10/5 10 3 10 2: Concentration: 6; Diplomacy: 7; Knowledge (Religion): 8; {+1} Ride: 5; Sense Motive: 6; {+1} Spellcraft: 6; Awesome Smite Channel spell, Divine bulwark 13th Ordained Champion 11/6/1 11 4 11 2: {+1} Concentration: 7; Diplomacy: 7; {+1} Intimidate: 1; Knowledge (Religion): 8; Ride: 5; Sense Motive: 6; Spellcraft: 6; Fist of the gods, Rapid spontaneous casting 14th Ordained Champion 12/7/2 11 4 11 2: {+2} Concentration: 9; Diplomacy: 7; Intimidate: 1; Knowledge (Religion): 8; Ride: 5; Sense Motive: 6; Spellcraft: 6; Holy warrior, War caster 15th Divine Agent 12/7/2 11 4 11 4: Concentration: 9; Diplomacy: 7; {+4} Intimidate: 5; Knowledge (Religion): 8; Ride: 5; Sense Motive: 6; Spellcraft: 6; Serenity Commune, Plane shift to deity's plane 16th Divine Agent 13/8/3 12 5 12 4: {+1} Concentration: 10; Diplomacy: 7; Intimidate: 5; Knowledge (Religion): 8; Ride: 5; {+2} Sense Motive: 8; {+1} Spellcraft: 7; Godly gift (Holy Sword) 17th Divine Agent 14/9/4 12 5 12 4: {+1} Concentration: 11; Diplomacy: 7; {+1} Intimidate: 6; Knowledge (Religion): 8; Ride: 5; {+1} Sense Motive: 9; {+1} Spellcraft: 8; Plane shift to any plane 18th Divine Agent 15/10/5 13 6 13 4: {+1} Concentration: 12; Diplomacy: 7; Intimidate: 6; {+1} Knowledge (Religion): 9; Ride: 5; {+1} Sense Motive: 10; {+1} Spellcraft: 9; Holy Warrior Audience, Alignment shift 19th Divine Agent 15/10/5 13 6 13 4: {+1} Concentration: 13; Diplomacy: 7; Intimidate: 6; {+1} Knowledge (Religion): 10; Ride: 5; {+1} Sense Motive: 11; {+1} Spellcraft: 10; Mystic union, Godly gift (Summon Monster IX) 20th Divine Agent 16/11/6/1 13 6 14 4: {+1} Concentration: 14; Diplomacy: 7; Intimidate: 6; {+1} Knowledge (Religion): 11; Ride: 5; {+1} Sense Motive: 12; {+1} Spellcraft: 11; Gate
Spoiler: ASIs
Spoiler: Short HandAbilities Initial Race / Template 4th 8th 12th 16th 20th STR 15 2 1 DEX 12 -2 CON 14 2 INT 12 -2 WIS 14 1 1 1 1 CHA 12
Spoiler: Long HandLevel \ Abilities STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA 1st 17 10 16 10 14 12 2nd 17 10 16 10 14 12 3rd 17 10 16 10 14 12 4th 18 10 16 10 14 12 5th 18 10 16 10 14 12 6th 18 10 16 10 14 12 7th 18 10 16 10 14 12 8th 18 10 16 10 15 12 9th 18 10 16 10 15 12 10th 18 10 16 10 15 12 11th 18 10 16 10 15 12 12th 18 10 16 10 16 12 13th 18 10 16 10 16 12 14th 18 10 16 10 16 12 15th 18 10 16 10 16 12 16th 18 10 16 10 17 12 17th 18 10 16 10 17 12 18th 18 10 16 10 17 12 19th 18 10 16 10 17 12 20th 18 10 16 10 18 12
4 - Str
8 - Wis
12 - Wis
16 - Wis
20 - Wis
Spoiler: Spell ChartLevel Class 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1st - - - - - - - - 2nd - - - - - - - - 3rd Cleric 1 3 1 + 1 - - - - - 4th Cleric 2 4 2 + 1 - - - - - 5th Cleric 3 4 2 + 1 1 + 1 - - - - 6th Divine Agent 1 (Cleric 3) 4 2 + 1 1 + 1 - - - - 7th Divine Agent 2 (Cleric 4) 5 3 + 1 2 + 1 - - - - 8th Divine Agent 3 (Cleric 4) 5 3 + 1 2 + 1 - - - - 9th Divine Agent 4 (Cleric 5) 5 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 - - - 10th Ordained Champion 1 (Cleric 5) 5 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 - - - 11th Ordained Champion 2 (Cleric 6) 5 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 - - - 12th Ordained Champion 3 (Cleric 7) 6 4 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 - - 13th Ordained Champion 4 (Cleric 7) 6 4 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 - - 14th Ordained Champion 5 (Cleric 8) 6 4 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 - - 15th Divine Agent 5 (Cleric 8) 6 4 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 - - 16th Divine Agent 6 (Cleric 9) 6 4 + 1 4 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 - 17th Divine Agent 7 (Cleric 9) 6 4 + 1 4 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 - 18th Divine Agent 8 (Cleric 10) 6 4 + 1 4 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 - 19th Divine Agent 9 (Cleric 10) 6 4 + 1 4 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 - 20th Divine Agent 10 (Cleric 11) 6 5 + 1 4 + 1 4 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1
Spoiler: Godly Gifts
3 - Magic Circle Against Evil (Good 3)
6* - Holy Sword (Glory 5)
9 - Summon Monster IX (Good 9)
Spoiler: Feat1 - Nemesis (Prerequisite: Favored enemy class ability)
3 (War Domain) - Weapon Focus: Longsword
3 (Law Domain Exchange) - Law Devotion
3 - Extra Turning (Prerequisite: Ability to turn or rebuke creatures)
6 - Stand Still (Prerequisite: STR 13)
10 (Ordained Champion Combat Feats) (BAB is 8)
Improved Toughness (Prerequisite: Base Fortitude save bonus +2) - Good
Power Attack (Prerequisite: STR 13) - Glory
9 - Practiced Spellcaster (Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks)
11 (Ordained Champion Bonus Feat) - Diehard
12 - Awesome Smite (Prerequisite: Power Attack (PH) , Base attack bonus +6, smite ability)
15 - Serenity (Prerequisite: Divine Grace)
18 - Holy Warrior (Prerequisite: Ability to cast 4th-level spells, access to the War domain) (Able to cast 4ths at ECL 12)
Spoiler: The TalePiotyr’s face was covered with blood that seeped into his eyes and made it hard to see. It was not his blood.
His small hands dug through the ash and soot that pressed down on him. When his eyes could focus, he saw fire burning what used to be his parents bed and fires burning the roof which he slept under. An opening to the night sky showed a blood red moon above.
Piotyr pulled himself free of the detritus that pinned him and stood up, feeling around for something to use as a weapon. He came across the poker for their fireplace and pulled at it, but it seemed trapped. He tugged and pulled it free, ripping flesh from the body that was once his mother’s. Piotyr was already weeping. He was getting angry. Hefting the rod of iron, he rushed outside and screamed at the shambling undead that had filled what was once his village.
However, these ghouls were more than mere mindless zombies, they wielded torches and wore armor. They followed a dark rider who never acted but rather led his army of the dead through PiotyrÂ’s home.
The streets had only stragglers of the ghoulish soldiers, but PiotyrÂ’s cries drew attention.
They lurched towards the 8 year old Piotyr, drawing ever closer. Piotyr faced a certain death.
Then, a bolt of blue electricity broke through the night, striking each of the undead, causing their bodies to evaporate. Piotyr looked to see a big… Orc? Something like an Orc but he had a bloody tail! Well, this Blue Orc like thing with a tail wiped its mouth with a flourish of static electricity.
“Are you alright?” the big thing asked.
“What manner are you? A Frostblood Orc?” Piotyr cried.
“Nay. Though my Father’s blood is Orc, it was of the Desert. My Mother… was not Orc. You have seen much this day. I do not envy you. I am called Malavar, Son of Itto, Blood of the Pharoah, Child of a Blue Dragon.”
“You spared me.”
“I saved you.”
“I needed no saving. I wanted to destroy them myself.”
“Cold words. Are you sure that YOU don’t have Frostblood in you?”
“My people call Frostbloods Southerners.”
“Well, even if not Frostblood, you certainly have Ice running in your veins. Let me give you a cloak at least as these fires die.”
Piotyr studied the one called Malavar then slowly lowered the poker. Malavar took the cloak from his back and covered the small boy. This was the day that Malavar, Son of the Last Paladin, would find his most steadfast student in the refounding of the Knights of Heironeous.
For Piotyr, this was first a path for vengeance, for his parents and his village, against the undead armies that slaughtered them and the Church of Hextor that sent them. However, in time he felt the calling of Heironeous to more truly act through him. He developed magical talents in the name of the God of Knights, until one day Heironeous spoke to him directly.
Piotyr had wiped out a Coven of Vampires and was about to put down the last of them, a slight creature who cowered from him. Heironeous appeared before him and ordered his warrior to stay his hand, for this was a Dhampyr child, not fully reborn as a monster. Suddenly, Piotyr had a squire called Zee.
Piotyr continued serving Heironeous, his connection further deepening, even being granted an audience on more than one occasion, with Zee ever at his side for these encounters.
Finally, Piotyr and Zee would stand against evil together one last time. The undead hoard drew closer and to face them, Piotyr summoned the mighty celestial Gryphon, Moonstalker, to carry them both into battle.
It was glorious.
But only Zee saw the following day.
“Zee…”
“Master!”
“Zee… you have served me well. You have served Heironeous well. Keep… keep it up.You… must show them twice as hard. I knew that, just as my Master, Malavar, knew it. Just as his Master, Itto, knew it. Just as his Master, Pretantus knew it. ItÂ’s on you to show them that you are a hero. But remember, the world… it needs heroes.”
And so Piotyr, called Iceveins, finally went cold.
Spoiler: Class AbilitiesSpoiler: Paladin1 - Aura of Good: Non feature.
1 - Detect Evil: Useful for identifying foes.
1 - Favored Enemy (Undead): From the Unearthed Arcana variant. Traded Smite Evil and Lay on Hands for a small bump against an incredibly common foe and opens up Nemesis as an option.
2 - Divine Grace: A huge bump to saves, particularly once Serenity kicks in.
Spoiler: Cleric1 - Turn Undead: A prerequisite for a lot of abilities despite being kinda blah without something to use them as fuel for.
1 - Domains: This is the thing that lets the Divine Agent really work. More spells and the ability to trade them for feats in a variety of ways are great!
1 - Spellcasting: Obviously huge.
Spoiler: Divine Agent1 - Granted Domain: Always nice and has synergy with the Godly Gifts ability later on.
2 - Contact: This class seems tailor made for helping DMs railroad players and this is the first of many features that facilitates that.
3 - Menacing Aura: This is a nice class feature! It really synergizes well with Law Devotion and actually makes going Sword and Board for much of this build a logical choice for once. At later levels, your spells can keep your AC high making it a powerful debuff to large groups of enemies.
3,6,9 - Godly Gifts: These merit their own sectionÂ…
Spoiler: Godly GiftsThe Godly Gifts is an unimpressive class feature in most respects, since you could just cast the spells normally, however it does effectively provide an additional domain slot and even lets you cast a 9th level spell when this build is nowhere near 9th level spells. More importantly, itÂ’s a class feature, so how do we best use it? Well, spells that youÂ’re going to want to cast at least once a day are good candidates. WeÂ’ll want to look at the highest level spell that we can get for each gift, but that doesnÂ’t mean those are the only options. Also, because the caster level is based on your character level, it helps this build which is lagging on caster levels keep up. Lastly, these are spell-like abilities, which means the casting time is a standard action, which opens up some options.
Because the Law Domain and Good Domain have pretty similar spells (just on different axis), trading away Law Domain for Law Devotion doesnÂ’t really sting here. WeÂ’re still left with 3 domains: War, Good, and Glory.
Level 3
Our 3rd level spell options are Magic Vestment (War), Magic Circle Against Evil(Good), and Searing Light (Glory). All 3 are interesting, so I donÂ’t think we need to look at levels 2 or 1 for spell options here. Searing Light while definitely useful on a melee build is not that impressive as a once a day ability. This leaves Magic Circle and Vestment, with Magic Vestment benefiting from the level scaling but also being something we can spontaneously cast due to our Ordained Champion levels. Meanwhile Magic Circle is obviously great for the whole party but doesnÂ’t last as long or scale as much. IÂ’d imagine either would be welcome additions but IÂ’m going with Magic Circle Against Evil here because it has more applications than just making one party member hard to hit.
3 - Magic Circle Against Evil (Good 3)
Level 6
This one is uglier. Our 6th level options from our 3 domains are Bolt of Glory (GloryÂ… obviously) and then both War and Good have Blade Barrier. Bolt of Glory is not much more impressive than Searing Light, but Blade Barrier is nice, I guess. However, letÂ’s look at Level 5 spells in case thereÂ’s a winner and would you look at that? Holy Sword is on the Glory list! A very Paladin-y spell, that isnÂ’t super easy to come by, and projects a Magic Circle Against Evil (which makes our Level 3 choice no less valid since these are once a day and presumably youÂ’ll have more than one combat per day). Flame Strike and Dispel Evil are on War and Good respectively and would be nice, but I donÂ’t think they outshine Holy Sword. This is the level that REALLY makes me wish that the Godly Gifts progression was 3/5/7/9 instead of 3/6/9.
6* - Holy Sword (Glory 5)
Level 9
9th level spells are 9th level spells, so itÂ’s not like there are going to be losers at this level. Considering youÂ’re otherwise a 6th level caster, getting this Godly Gift and then Gate at Divine Agent 10 means youÂ’re pulling off some tricks that are above your weight class. Also, if you really wanted to maximize this ability, you could race through Divine Agent levels to effectively get access to a 9th level spell at ECL 14, but weÂ’re not doing that here. Power Word: Kill (War) certainly could be very cool and scary on this build (especially as a follow up to a swift action War Domain spell like Flame Strike). Gate (Glory), youÂ’re getting anyway, but I could see myriad reasons for wanting to cast it twice daily. However we know that there is a clear answer here and that is Summon Monster IX, which normally takes a full round to cast, but gets bumped up to a Standard Action and that, combined with caster level being character level, is fricking amazing! Grab a Celestial Roc and finally rock a proper Paladin mount! ItÂ’s also incredibly versatile, even with the limit on only good aligned summons, it still offers tons of strong options.
9 - Summon Monster IX (Good 9)
4 - Altered Appearance: Look like a prettier more holy person. Fun for RP purposes.
5 - Commune: SighÂ… twice a week. Another spell-like ability that will help with RP elements.
5 - Plane shift to deity's plane: This could actually get you out of a jam and adds to the magical abilities of the class, but in most uses will be for story or RP purposes.
7 - Plane shift to any plane: This might be nice in a heavily Planar game. ItÂ’s more casting via spell like ability, however.
8 - Audience: “Up to twice per year” your DM can use you to move the plot along.
8 - Alignment shift: Not relevant here.
9 - Mystic Union: Become an outsider with DR 10/Chaos or Evil! Very nice!
10 - Gate: This is a very nice 9th level spell to access.
Spoiler: Ordained Champion1 - Bonus domain (Glory): More spells and another Domain power to trade for a free feat!
1 - Combat feats: Great googly moogly! This is a huge boon when entering with several Domains with good spells and lackluster powers! It makes a fun metagame of stacking domains before entering (a thing I absolutely would have done more of if I wasnÂ’t trying to use the whole SI).
1 - Continued advancement: This only helps certain abilities for us, since weÂ’re trading most of the domain powers away, but the Turn advancement influenced the central idea of the build.
1 - Modified spontaneous casting: This is very nice. If taken to interact with the Holy Warrior feat, it makes any spell slot you have count and thatÂ’s rather nice, but the War Domain spells themselves are also great additions!
2 - Smite: Unfortunately this isnÂ’t affected by Serenity, so the accuracy boost is stuck using Charisma. ItÂ’s nice to have, particularly once Awesome Smite comes online, but isnÂ’t really the reason weÂ’re here.
Spoiler: About SmiteThe first time I read the Divine Agent class, I took this bit:
Â… to mean that Divine Agent levels stacked for Turn Undead checks, but I think on rereading the RAW would mean it only applies to things like “Turn Plants” or whatever. Still, Smite does what it needs to as a means for Awesome Smite to kick in and it still works when you need a (small) accuracy increase and a moderate damage bump. However, Law Devotion will take Turn Undead uses far further in combat, especially when combined with Power Attack. Either way, Smite wonÂ’t be the center of your damage output regardless.“In cases where the granted ability relies on cleric levels or allows turning or rebuking, use the sum of a character's cleric and divine agent levels to determine the ability's effect.”
3 - Channel spell: The spell can live in the weapon for 8 hours so you can always have a spell in your weapon when entering combat. Even in combat, there are times where trading a move action to both cast a spell and hit with a melee attack is the right call. Big Gishy feature here.
3 - Divine bulwark: This will be helpful the exact moment we need to stay standing for something.
4 - Fist of the gods: The hit to spell casting hurts this a little, but we wouldnÂ’t use this outside of specific situations anyway.
4 - Rapid spontaneous casting: AND here the Modified Spontaneous Casting thing becomes just so, so sweet. Swift action casting really makes this feel Gishy!
5 - Holy warrior: Assuming we focused on Wisdom stat items, this will be a nice boost in combat. If we ended up with more closely leveled stats, then it matters less.
5 - War caster: Nice little bonus. On this build we need it!
Spoiler: EquipmentWe’re going Longsword here, so sword and board at early levels. Once you have an arcane party member casting shield or getting an animated shield or shield of faith combined with Law Devotion and your other ac buffs, you can go two handed with the longsword and at least get the benefits to power attack. You want to be in plate and wearing items that boost wisdom, constitution, and strength in that order, but you’d also welcome a big charisma boosting item which saves you a feat. Anything that can help make you “sticky” is welcome too.
Spoiler: Scratch NotesPaladin levels are the vow of a warrior of Heironeous. He’s particularly devoted to fighting the undead.
Cleric levels are an awakening of spiritual power and a turning of the Undead.
First 4 Divine Agent levels awakens a direct connection with Heironeous and gets Menacing Aura which is actually rather nice!. Make this the point where the War Domain is acquired. It’s the logical feeder to Ordained Champion. The Paladin levels are more of an Undead Hunter and this is when the Cult of Hextor really comes into play!
Ordained Champion gives some nice benefits so run with that.
Finish out Ordained Champion to get swift action war domain casting, then wrap up the Divine Agent levels.
Spoiler: But… Why?Spoiler: Divine Agent + Ordained Champion?Divine Agent is rough and I mean that from a finish standpoint. It has pros, but too many cons to make this a part of most builds if not for contests like this. The downside is that we lose three points of BAB and 5 caster levels. The upside is that it has some class features and the Godly Gifts ability is interesting if way too limited in use. Mystic Union actually has some dope potential, particularly for a tank build! Gate is a free 9th level spell! Those commune with deity abilities are good for role playing and as a DM I could see leaning into them for a chunk of sessions. The frame isn’t terrible either. D8 HD is ok, they get 4 skill ranks a level which is better than a Cleric, and ¾ BAB hurts but could be worse.
If I was remaking this class, I’d make it full BAB, make the Godly Gift progression 3/5/7/9, with either a clause to let you spend Turn Undead uses to get additional castings or give you 3 uses per, and probably bump the skill ranks to 6 per level. It still wouldn’t be a go to class for optimizers, because of the lost caster levels, but it would be tempting for martial characters dipping their toes into casting.
However, that’s not what we are doing here and the class we have is hurting for meaningful class features, thus we’ll pair it with a class that is overflowing with class features, the Ordained Champion. I mean, taking 10 levels of Divine Agent means we’re not getting 9ths regardless so let’s lean in and see if we can make a real solid Tier 3 build.
Does this compete with a straight Cleric? Obviously not! We’re talking about one of the most OP classes in the game. It’s when we compare it with the dynamic duo from Pathfinder, the Inquisitor and the War Priest, that we see this build do well! HP is about the same. We actually end up with the 4th iterative that eludes the two classes, but only at 20th level. We’re slightly behind on casting but we still up with 6th level spells and the Godly Gifts helps tip the favor back towards this build. Trading the granted powers from our Domains for Fighter Feat doesn’t quite get us to the number of bonus feat that either class gets, but Pathfinder is by definition more liberal with feat. Trading the Law domain for Law Devotion stacks up very well against Inquisitor Judgements. The Smite and Channel Spell abilities from Ordained Champion compares with War Priest weapon enhancements and Inquisitor Bane abilities. Swift action casting of all War domain spells is a pretty solid trade for War Priest spending fervor to swift cast buff spells. We still have the War Domain, plus the spells from Glory and Good, so that more or less equates to the Domain/Inquisition from Inquisitors or the Blessings from War Priests. Inquisitors crush us when it comes to skills and the War Priest is fully online sooner, but I’d say that in 3.5 this comes out as a pretty solid Tier 3 build that plays very nice with Psychic Warriors, Bards, and the like.
Spoiler: Paladin levels?Well I needed at least 1 level of a full BAB class in order to get all 10 of Divine Agent and 5 of Ordained Champion. Paladin suited my story best, though I did consider a reformed Barbarian, a Ranger, or a Crusader. I went with 2 Paladin levels mostly for story reasons but we also benefit from Divine Grace opening up Serenity to really boost our saves and Turn Undead count, considering how much we want Wisdom otherwise. Smite Evil doesn’t scale here, nor does Lay on Hands, so I traded them for Favored Enemy: Undead which fits the story. Pairing that with Nemesis and we’re in a great position to be an Undead Destroyer, even more so when Turn Undead first comes online!
Spoiler: Trading DomainsI did a little bit of Domain Stacking to make use of the Divine Agent’s Godly Gifts. When combined with Ordained Champion (and it’s important to take Divine Agent first here so we have the extra domain already) we can trade less helpful domain powers for Fighter Feat without losing access to the spells in the domain. We get 4 domains: War (necessary to enter Ordained Champion), Law, Good, and Glory (although we could take Inquisition in lieu of one of the others). However, there aren’t “that many” Fighter Feat that the build really needs and the Law and Good Domains have almost identical spells, just opposing a different alignment, so this made it too tempting to pass on snagging Law Devotion in exchange for access to the Law Domain. Law Devotion is great, scales well, sures up our limits to hit we have from being a bit MAD and not full BAB, and is a good use of Turn Undeads before we get into Ordained Champion.
Spoiler: Feat SelectionLevel 1
Since I traded Smite Evil and Lay on Hands for Favored Enemy: Undead, I figure I should make the most of it. The sensory abilities granted by Nemesis are great and the 1d6 bonus damage is a great return on damage at low levels.
1 - Nemesis (Prerequisite: Favored enemy class ability)
Level 3
This is a juicy level. All of the Cleric stuff comes online and opens up new options. Since the War Domain basically gives you automatic entry into Ordained Champion, we’ll take that and it gives us Weapon Focus, which results in our character not feeling the dip in his to hit at this level. We’re trading our Law Domain for Law Devotion because we’ll be picking up Good Domain with our first level of Divine Agent and the spells are pretty redundant and Law Devotion is a great feat and a great use for Turn Undead. On that note, Extra Turning at this level will mean we have a ton (4 more!) of uses to spend on turning undead or devoting to law and we’ll get more options as we level.
3 (War Domain) - Weapon Focus: Longsword
3 (Law Domain Exchange) - Law Devotion
3 - Extra Turning (Prerequisite: Ability to turn or rebuke creatures)
Level 6
Piotyr is not going to be a big hitter at this phase, but he will reliably hit and has good AC, so making it hard to get past him is good. Stand Still is a good option for preventing people from getting past us. It’s also not a Fighter Feat somehow, so we can’t get that in the trades we’ll be making when we take Ordained Champion level 1.
6 - Stand Still (Prerequisite: STR 13)
Level 9
At this point we’re feeling the caster level drop off, so it makes sense to juice that a little. Practiced Spellcaster at this level brings your caster level up to ECL for the moment, though it only slows the drop in caster levels.
9 - Practiced Spellcaster (Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks)
Level 10
Hey! First level of Ordained Champion! I would have entered this sooner, but I needed the BAB to qualify for Improved Critical. We’re trading away the domain powers of our Good and Glory domains (but not our spell lists) in exchange for 2 Fighter Feat. In this case, we’re FINALLY taking Power Attack which will combine very nicely with Law Devotion and taking Improved Critical to give us some additional damage output from crit fishing. Power Attack at 10 is late, but I figure that we’re sword and board at the low levels which gets a bad return on one handed power attacks, so it really only comes into use once we can reliably have the shield spell up and wield the longsword in two hands. Originally the Ordained Champion levels were earlier in the build, but I needed the higher BAB for Improved Critical and there weren’t other Fighter Feats that I was that interested in.
10 (Ordained Champion Combat Feats) (BAB is 8)
Improved Critical: Longsword (Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8) - Good
Power Attack (Prerequisite: STR 13) - Glory
Level 11
This is a bonus feat from our second level of Ordained Champion. Diehard isn’t usually a feat I put in a build, but I’m happy to have it.
11 (Ordained Champion Bonus Feat) - Diehard
Level 12
The Ordained Champion smite unfortunately is keyed off Charisma, so the bonus to hit isn’t going to be much, but the damage scales with your Turn Undead level, so it’s just going to be better and better, so why not give it some additional rider effects? Awesome Smite gives a bunch of options to add to our smite ability and that’s going to feel really nice.
12 - Awesome Smite (Prerequisite: Power Attack (PH) , Base attack bonus +6, smite ability)
Level 15
Earlier in the build, our Wisdom wasn’t that much better than our Charisma, so swapping stats for Turn Undead and Divine Grace was only a small boost. Now, it’s much beefier and will make taking Serenity here feel like Extra Turning, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Improved Fortitude all rolled in one. However, it’s possible by this level that we’ve gotten a really nice Charisma boosting item, so we may not need to spend the feat and can grab our Level 18 choice instead and free up a feat there.
15 - Serenity (Prerequisite: Divine Grace)
Level 18
Holy Warrior, which adds the highest level War domain spell we have to cast to all attack and damage, on an Ordained Champion build is almost a given since the Spontaneous Casting of the War Domain synergizes so well with it. If this was more caster focused, we’d have snatched it up as soon as we could, but with us only topping off at 6th level spells it’s impact is going to be felt more at higher levels anyway.
18 - Holy Warrior (Prerequisite: Ability to cast 4th-level spells, access to the War domain) (Able to cast 4ths at ECL 12)
Spoiler: Snap Shots!Spoiler: Level 5Starting with Paladin 2 and then shifting to Cleric 3 puts us in pretty good shape over Paladin 5, minus the Special Mount (or comparable level traded feature). Like… It’s only 1 behind full BAB and a third level caster with heavy armor and a solid chunk of HP: It’s able to attract attention away from other party members just fine while contributing generally. And that’s all assuming you aren’t fighting the undead, because then you turn into an unyielding force of destruction and terror!Spoiler: Level 104 levels of Divine Agent have started to shape this character into a more holy style holy warrior and the Ordained Champion level brings it all home with a re-emphasis on the warrior part. Being a servant of Heironeous makes this all line up lore wise, since his Paladins, Clerics, Favored Souls, Crusaders, Pious Templars, Ordained Champions, Shining Swords of Heironeouses, Divine Crusaders, and Divine Agents all look the goddamn same to the casual observer, so it seems like blending these prestige classes should present a viable hybrid. We’re behind another point of BAB and spell casting takes multiple hits here, with your first Godly Gift only slightly offsetting that, but Menacing Aura is a great defender feature! Ordained Champion 1 gives you several Fighter Feat and starts you on a very potent set of levels!Spoiler: Level 15Honestly, that level 15 feat going to Serenity almost feels like the post-coital moment of clarity having finished the excellent Ordained Champion prestige class and being halfway to finishing Divine Agent. The 5th level Divine Agent stuff also feels particularly like a moment of relief as it furthers your communal relationship with Heironeous.
Spoiler: Level 20We have finished the SI, ending with 4 iterative attacks, 6th level spell casting, and multiple 9th level spell like abilities. We are certainly “playable”, and I think that the narrative fits a traditional Paladin quest, in this case an outsider who strives to become stronger through his relationship with his deity and his wisdom, rather than strength of arm. Despite being made up of 4 classes, they all seem consistent for our greater spiritual awakening. From a violent beginning, we are now summoning mighty celestials to aid us with a purity of purpose. While we might be a downgrade from COD-zilla, King of the Munchkins, we are a considerable upgrade from a base Paladin in enough regards that we do well in a lower optimization game.
Spoiler: Sources
Players Handbook
Class - Paladin
Class - Cleric
Feat - Weapon Focus
Feat - Extra Turning
Feat - Diehard
Feat - Improved Critical
Feat - Power Attack
Unearthed Arcana
Class Variant - Favored Enemy Variant Paladin
Manual of the Planes
Prestige Class - Divine Agent
Dragon Compendium
Feat - Serenity
Complete Divine
Feat - Practiced Spellcaster
Complete Champion
Prestige Class - Ordained Champion
Feat - War Caster
Feat - Law Devotion
Feat - Awesome Smite
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Feat - Stand Still
Book of Exalted Deeds
Feat - Nemesis
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards Originally Posted by willpell
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2024-01-14, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
The Gnomish equivalent of Sam Peckinpaw
Originally Posted by Ketos
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards Originally Posted by willpell
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2024-01-14, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Infooooooormer
Originally Posted by Snow
Snow
Hey now, you're a roc star
Male illumian, aeshkrau
Chaotic good
Deity: Tuilviel Glithien
Paladin of freedom, divine agent, thaumaturgist, paragnostic apostle, crusader
Spoiler: Build table
Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Reflex Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features 1st Paladin of Freedom 1 (Unearthed Arcana 53) 1 2 0 0 16: {+4} K Religion: 4; {+2 CC} K Planes: 1; {+4} Ride: 4; {+4} Bluff: 4; {+2} Craft (Saddlemaking): 2; Power Attack Smite evil 1/day, detect evil, aura of good, code of conduct 2nd Paladin of Freedom 2 2 3 0 0 4: {+1} K Religion: 5; K Planes: 1; {+1} Ride: 5; {+1} Bluff: 5; {+1} Craft (Saddlemaking): 3; Divine grace, lay on hands 3rd Paladin of Freedom 3 3 3 1 1 4: {+1} K Religion: 6; K Planes: 1; {+1} Ride: 6; {+1} Bluff: 6; {+1} Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Improved Sigil Krau (Races of Destiny 153) Aura of resolve, divine health 4th Paladin of Freedom 4 4 4 1 1 4: {+1} K Religion: 7; {+3} K Planes: 4; Ride: 6; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Planar substitution level (Planar Handbook 33), smite evil outsider, spells 5th Divine Agent 1 (Manual of the Planes 25) 4 4 1 3 6: K Religion: 7; {+3 CC} K Planes: 5.5; Ride: 6; {+3} Use Magic Device: 3; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Granted domain (Sky) 6th Divine Agent 2 5 4 1 4 6: K Religion: 7; {+3 CC} K Planes: 7; Ride: 6; {+3} Use Magic Device: 6; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Mounted Combat Contact, paladin casting 5 7th Divine Agent 3 6 5 2 4 6: K Religion: 7; {+2 CC} K Planes: 8; Ride: 6; {+4} Use Magic Device: 10; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Menacing aura, godly gift (summon dire hawk) 8th Divine Agent 4 7 5 2 5 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 8; Ride: 6; {+5} Spellcraft: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 11; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Altered appearance, paladin casting 6 9th Divine Agent 5 7 5 2 5 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 8; {+2 CC} Ride: 7; Spellcraft: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 12; {+3 CC} K Arcana: 1.5; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Spell Focus Conjuration Commune, plane shift to deity's plane 10th Divine Agent 6 8 6 3 6 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 8; {+2 CC} Ride: 8; Spellcraft: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 13; {+3 CC} K Arcana: 3; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Godly gift (wind walk), paladin casting 7 11th Divine Agent 7 9 6 3 6 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 8; {+3 CC} Ride: 9.5; Spellcraft: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 14; {+2 CC} K Arcana: 4; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Plane shift to any plane 12th Divine Agent 8 10 7 4 7 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 8; {+3 CC} Ride: 11; Spellcraft: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 15; {+2 CC} K Arcana: 5; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 4; Planar Touchstone: Pilgrim's Rest (Planar Handbook 41, 173) Audience, alignment shift, paladin casting 8 13th Divine Agent 9 10 7 4 7 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 8; {+4 CC} Ride: 13; Spellcraft: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 16; K Arcana: 5; Bluff: 6; {+1} Craft (Saddlemaking): 5; Mystic union, godly gift (summon devoted roc) 14th Divine Agent 10 11 7 4 8 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 8; {+4 CC} Ride: 15; Spellcraft: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 17; K Arcana: 5; Bluff: 6; {+1} Craft (Saddlemaking): 6; Gate, paladin casting 9 15th Thaumaturgist 1 (DMG 196) 11 7 4 10 4: K Religion: 7; {+4} K Planes: 12; Ride: 15; Spellcraft: 5; Use Magic Device: 17; K Arcana: 5; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 6; Stalwart Planar Ally (Planar Handbook 42) Improved ally, paladin casting 10 16th Thaumaturgist 2 12 7 4 11 4: K Religion: 7; {+4} K Planes: 16; Ride: 15; Spellcraft: 5; Use Magic Device: 17; K Arcana: 5; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 6; Augment Summoning, paladin casting 11 17th Thaumaturgist 3 12 8 5 11 4: K Religion: 7; {+4} K Planes: 20; Ride: 15; Spellcraft: 5; Use Magic Device: 17; K Arcana: 5; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 6; Extend summoning, paladin casting 12 18th Thaumaturgist 4 13 8 5 12 4: K Religion: 7; {+1} K Planes: 21; Ride: 15; Spellcraft: 5; {+2 CC} Use Magic Device: 18; K Arcana: 5; Bluff: 6; {+1} Craft (Saddlemaking): 7; Sudden Extend (Complete Arcane 83) Contingent conjuration, paladin casting 13 19th Paragnostic Apostle 1 (Complete Champion 94) 13 8 5 14 6: K Religion: 7; {+1} K Planes: 22; Ride: 15; Spellcraft: 5; Use Magic Device: 18; {+5} K Arcana: 10; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 7; Lore, call of worlds, paladin casting 14 20th Crusader 1 (Tome of Battle 8) 14 10 5 14 6: K Religion: 7; K Planes: 22; {+6} Ride: 21; Spellcraft: 5; Use Magic Device: 18; K Arcana: 10; Bluff: 6; Craft (Saddlemaking): 7; Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5, maneuvers (5 known, 2 ready, 1 stance)
Spoiler: Stats
Abilities Initial Race / Template 4th 8th 12th 16th 20th STR 14 1 1 1 1 1 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 14
STR 13+ for Power Attack.
Aeshkrau sigil (see below) uses STR for bonus spell slots, so STR is prioritized at level-up to ensure native 18 by the time Snow would have "0" 4th level spells per day.
CHA 13+ for Stalwart Planar Ally. Also used for divine grace (and, early on, lay on hands).
WIS 14 to ensure the ability to cast 4th level spells.
INT 14 to have sufficient skill points for various Knowledge-based prereqs.
Spoiler: Racial detailsIllumian (Races of Destiny 51)
[Human] subtype
Medium humanoid
No stat boosts/penalties
Krau sigil: +2 bonus to CL, max your HD
Aesh sigil: +2 bonus to STR checks and STR-based skill checks
Aeshkrau power word: use STR instead of normal ability score for determining bonus spells per day
Snow's starting languages: Common, Illumian, Tuilvilanuue, Auran
Spoiler: Spells
Level Effective paladin level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Summon Devoted Roc duration (hours) 1st 1 - - - - - 2nd 2 - - - - - 3rd 3 - - - - - 4th 4 0 - - - - 5th 4 0 - - - - 6th 5 0 - - - - 7th 5 0 - - - - 8th 6 1 - - - - 9th 6 1 - - - - 10th 7 1 - - - - 11th 7 1 - - - - 12th 8 1 0 - - - 13th 8 1 0 - - 13 14th 9 1 0 - - 16 15th 10 1 1 - - 34 16th 11 1 1 0 - 36 17th 12 1 1 1 - 76 18th 13 1 1 1 - 160 19th 14 2 1 1 0 168 20th 14 2 1 1 0 176
Snow's paladin spells are useful but are not the primary focus of the build. Nonetheless, they are still powerful. Rhino's rush (Spell Compendium 176) is a great damage boost with power attack, especially mounted with a lance. Lesser restoration is always welcome. Master cavalier (Complete Champion 124) is a great +10 bonus to Ride. Divine insight (Spell Compendium 70) is great at solving out-of-combat problems. Various spells from PHB, SpC, and Complete Champion can buff weapons. And so on…
Spoiler: Martial maneuversAll maneuvers are White Raven and are found in Tome of Battle starting around pg. 90
Initiator level = 10 (19/2 + 1, round down)
Stance: Leading the charge
Leading the attack
Battle leader's charge (prereq: 1 WR maneuver)
Covering strike (prereq: 1 WR maneuver)
White raven strike (prereq: 1 WR maneuver)
Flanking maneuver (prereq: 2 WR maneuvers)
Spoiler: The important stuffSnow is devoted to the deity Tuilviel Glithien (Races of the Wild 77), whom I'm hereafter going to refer to as TG because I don't wanna keep typing that. Snow is an illumian, but he feels a kinship with the raptoran people and is interested in their deities, especially TG. And honestly, her whole thing is protection and freedom, and that's actually perfect for a paladin of freedom, racial pantheon be damned. (There's no rule against a paladin being devoted to a racial deity if you're not a member of that race.) I'm envisioning that he was born to an illumian root cabal near a mountain somewhere, his parents got killed by some kind of Mountain Threats, and he was rescued and raised by some raptoran scouts who took him in and taught him raptoran culture. He was grateful to the raptoran flock for taking him in and letting him join their community despite not being able to fly, and he devoted himself to TG and to protection of the weak, hence paladin of freedom (okay, yes, I know how paladins actually work in practice, this is the fluff paragraph, stay with me for Young Snow's starry-eyed idealism). He'll fly someday! But rather than only using magic to fly because there's no interesting narrative meat there, since his whole thing was being rescued, he'll eventually get to fly with the help of some friends. Friends helping each other and protecting each other is what it's all about.
Paladin is the fastest way to get into divine agent, since you can qualify at level 4. BAB +4? Check. K: Religion 7? Check. 2nd level divine spells? Well, Snow can cast 1st level divine spells, and as long as at least one of those spells has a verbal component (idk, let's pick bless weapon or whatever), Improved Sigil Krau automatically heightens it up +1 level, so ability to cast 2nd level spells is a check! Into divine agent!
Side note: planar paladin, taken at level 4, gives K: Planes as a class skill. This will be important later for qualifying for Planar Touchstone. It's also important because the SI gives plane shift, and c'mon, we've gotta have some idea where we're going, right?
Early life, you've got BAB, you've got Power Attack, you've got Ride (buy a horse, they're cheap), grab a lance and charge stuff, idk. Secret ingredient time.
Granted Domain has to be Sky, because Godly Gift is stupidly worded to give you a SLA from the divine agent's domains (and not the deity's domains), so since Snow comes in without any domains but we want to have the Sky domain (wait for it), so Sky domain it is.
Contact does nothing. I can't optimize that. I'm sorry.
Godly Gift 1: summon dire hawk (Races of the Wild 175/189) is probably the best option here. It doesn't hurt to be able to poof in something that can fly, I suppose. Not gonna lie, we're still at the point where Power Attack is doing a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to damage output, but honestly, at this point PA is still enough to matter.
Menacing aura: Hey, didja see that they just made the DC equal to your level and not, like 10 + your level? That's some 5e stuff right there, man. Not really useful, can't lie. This save's basically impossible to fail. But hey, it's thematically appropriate for a paladin of TG, since TG has the Protection domain and stuff! So I'm at least using it in flavor, if not in practicality.
Altered Appearance: I think TG is fair to characterize as an air deity, and so I think the most interesting fluff for this is that Snow's pores emit a small stream of air, like an air hockey table. This has no mechanical effect, but dammit, like half of the class's abilities have no mechanical effect, and I at least think this looks cool.
Commune: I mean, it's useful? It's a genuinely useful spell. It's just a straight up solid way of solving certain kinds of out-of-combat problems.
Plane shift to deity's plane: Look, I'm gonna level with you, I don't know where TG lives. Races of the Wild doesn't say. I think there's strong implications that she lives on the Elemental Plane of Air, which is probably the friendliest of the Inner Planes to folks who aren't originally from there, but it doesn't say that in the text in so many words. I'm going to assume that it's the Elemental Plane of Air because of all the raptoran fluff about connections with great powers on the EPoA and because her heralds are air elementals, but your GM wouldn't be completely houseruling it if they put TG's home plane somewhere else.
Godly gift 2: wind walk is a solidly (gaseously?) useful travel/out-of-combat spell, but also, it'll eventually be very useful for when you want to temporarily get some very large birds into smaller spaces, since it references gaseous form.
Plane shift to any plane: This is awesome! It's really useful for checking out planar touchstones, which we're going to talk about in a minute. Sure, you can't really aim it very well, but you know what helps you travel really quickly (and relatively safely) for hours per level? Wind walk! Snow's great at getting an entire party where they need to go this way.
Audience: It's like commune, but usable 1/26th as often for twice as long, so it's ultimately 1/13th as good as what you have already? Look, I stared at this for too long, I'm done now. I've only got one life.
Alignment shift: TG is the only deity with the Sky domain that has a paladin-compatible alignment, so this isn't a trap! Snow's already CG! Don't hurt me!
Mystic union: It's fine, but honestly I don't have time to try to make up a reason why I'm uniquely able to show off DR 10/lawful or evil (see the update/errata in Viscount's post on the first page).
Godly gift 3: TIME TO START PAYING ATTENTION BECAUSE THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS BUILD. SWEET SPOT TIME. Sorry for shouting, friends, but this is the exciting part! First, getting into divine agent ASAP is critical because this means that Snow has a 9th level spell at ECL 13! That's pretty cool, right? I mean, it's only once per day, though, so it needs to be something that really matters and that isn't just a fire-and-forget that leaves us sad for all the rounds of the day that we aren't casting a 9th level spell.
Enter summon devoted roc, Races of the Wild 175.
You summon a roc. Like, you know, the enormous bird from the Monster Manual. It's telepathically bonded to you and loyally follows your telepathic instructions, and it has a +5 enhancement bonus on attacks, damage, and saves. Oh right, and it lasts one hour per level. So right at the beginning that's a 13 hour long summon and it only gets so, so much better from there! But from this point onward, you can basically assume that Snow is accompanied by (and probably mounted upon) VERI BIG BIRB (a very big bird).
Gate: this is one of the most powerful spells in the game, and Snow gets it at ECL 14 (faster even than most ur-priest builds!) without an XP cost. Sure, any divine agent gets it, but getting it that early is worth something, I think! Since we don't actually know what TG's home plane is, I can't really offer too many specifics about what cool things you can summon, but honestly, there aren't really any bad options; nearly every plane has something cool to offer. It's effectively free. And that's incredible.
Okay so, quick detour to talk about the Catalogues of Enlightenment, which is a planar touchstone as detailed in Planar Handbook. Let's come back to optimizing summon devoted roc, because that's the star of the show, and the Catalogues of Enlightenment will help a lot with that.
First, let's look at Planar Handbook pg. 42, since we're going to have to do some text parsing here.
There's a lot happening there, right? So you take the feat once, you forge a link with your chosen site and gain its base ability, and you can visit the site to gain a higher-order ability. But then after you've forged your first link, you can then go to a different touchstone site and do its stuff to get its base ability and its higher-order ability at the cost of the base/higher abilities of your first site. Originally Posted by Planar Handbook pg. 42, Planar Touchstone
You will note that this does not say that you've forged a link with the second site, and notably, it also does not break the link with the first site. You simply don't have the base/higher abilities of the first site anymore.
Back to the text, now on the other side of pg. 42.
So the trigger here is not that you have the base ability or the higher-order ability of the relevant plane, but rather that you have forged a link with the touchstone on the relevant plane. And as we discussed, swapping out your higher-order abilities doesn't undo the fact that you've forged the link with your first site. Originally Posted by Planar Handbook pg. 42, Stalwart Planar Ally
Snow has forged a link with Pilgrim's Rest (Planar Handbook 173), which is on the Material Plane (and also the Ethereal Plane, but the important part is the Material). Rocs are native to the Material Plane, and therefore, since Snow has forged a link with a touchstone on the Material, the rocs he summons with summon devoted roc get the benefits of Stalwart Planar Ally (+4 AC, +4 saves, and oh yeah double duration) regardless of whether or not Snow is using the base/higher abilities of Pilgrim's Rest.
I'm spending so much time on this because at around ECL 14 (before Stalwart Planar Ally comes online, but that's not super important), Snow uses his divine agent abilities (plane shift, mostly, unless TG lives on Mechanus, but we really shouldn't assume that she does) to go to the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook 166) and fulfil its recharge condition in order to get its base ability and its higher-order ability.
Sidebar: the initial encounter to the Catalogues involves a debate with a philosopher who has a +18 Knowledge in a random field. Snow uses the fact that the SI has UMD in-class to absolutely cheat the hell out of this opposed check. A scroll or wand of guidance of the avatar will help a ton, as would a similar magic item of lore of the gods (Complete Champion 124: +5 insight on all Knowledge checks, roll Knowledge untrained, reroll a failed Knowledge check), or really any other spell that would just hack the hell out of an opposed Knowledge roll. And don't forget the Naen sigil's bonus! It's then simply a matter of spending downtime to activate the higher-order ability; the options to spend time indexing the archives or writing down your adventures don't have a failure condition.
Anyway, the base-order ability of the Catalogues of Enlightenment is the granted power of an arbitrary cleric domain (nowhere in here do you have to be connected with a deity who offers this domain), in this case the Summoner domain (Spell Compendium 281), which is a +2 CL bonus on conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (calling) spells, which is fab, since it affects summon devoted roc and also gate. (In Snow's spell table, the column for summon devoted roc duration assumes that he goes to the Catalogues at ECL 14, but in reality, this can happen any time between 12 and 14 inclusive.) The higher-order ability of the Catalogues is something that it is very important that Snow possesses but not important that Snow uses, because we're going to use it to fulfill a prereq for thaumaturgist. Basically, the higher-order ability lets you cast a spell from your chosen cleric domain, as long as you have the WIS for it and a "sufficient character level," which I think means if a pure-class cleric of your character level could cast it, you can cast it. The 4th level spell on the Summoner domain is lesser planar ally. Let me be clear: Snow will never actually need to cast this spell and therefore will never run out of the higher-order uses, because he is not actually depleting them. But the fact that he has the ability to cast this very specific spell? Well, that's a prereq for thaumaturgist.
Thaumaturgist offers a medium benefit, a HUGE benefit, and then something else very interesting. We don't need to use the Improved Ally ability, but Augment Summoning as a bonus feat is actually pretty slick on the devoted rocs! And then the huge benefit comes with Extended Summoning: Snow gets double duration on all summoning spells, and it explicitly stacks with Extend Spell!
You saw Sudden Extend down there on the table, right? Of course you did. And you remember the text on Complete Arcane 71 that explicitly says that the Sudden metamagic line works on SLAs, right? Well, now you remember.
So we've got summon devoted roc's already fabulous duration of 1 hour per CL, scaling for Snow based on character level (with a +2 from the Summoner domain's granted ability, gained through the Catalogues as described above). Double it because of Stalwart Planar Ally. Double it again because of thaumaturgist's Extended Summoning. Double it again because of Sudden Extend (sure, it's only 1/day, but so is godly gift, so that's not even a problem). Because time is a real-world value, we use real-world math and not D&D math (PHB 304), and therefore it's 8 hours per CL at the end.
A few days is all it takes to get several devoted rocs at once, since your daily use of godly gift will recharge before the duration ends on one or more of your given rocs. Several, my friends. I mean at level 20 (CL 22 from Summoner domain), that's 176 hours per casting (176/24=7.3333 days, so over one whole-ass week), but even before 20th, that's still enough to have two, three, four rocs at once, even with just a subset of the duration boosters online.
A reminder that a devoted roc has the roc's already impressive stats, +5 enhancement on attack/damage/saves (from the spell itself), +4 typeless AC/saves (from Stalwart Planar Ally), +4 STR/+4 CON (Augment Summoning). And Snow has so many of them, and they all follow his orders telepathically because summon devoted roc is a 9th level spell and that's what it says it does.
What's the collective noun for a group of rocs? I suggest "an avalanche."
Thaumaturgist 4, contingent conjuration, works both with summon devoted roc and gate (two SI abilities!), and it's both strong in a general sense (I mean, either of those spells are great, and getting them on the field with a contingency instead of with an actual action? Marvelous) and also potentially simply very funny. I mean, the strong use is something like "contingent on me saying this specific nonsense phrase (talking is a free action that can be done out of turn), gate in something big and strong," but the hilarious use is "when one of my devoted rocs reaches 0 HP, use summon devoted roc." Can't you just imagine that? "Ah, very good, you have defeated one of my seven rocs! Now you must face all seven of my rocs. Yes, I said all seven."
Thaumaturgist 5 isn't really useful to Snow, can't go back to the SI (we ran out), legally barred from taking more paladin, time to start looking for weird stuff at the end. Paragnostic Apostle gives Call of Worlds, which means that all of my summoned creatures (like my avalanche of rocs) get fast healing. Which isn't meaningful when your summons last a few rounds but is hugely relevant when they last many days! Re: prereqs, joining the Paragnostic Assembly doesn't conflict in any way with divine agent or with TG's agenda, and Snow's got enough Knowledge ranks to fit in. (I bet more than a few Assembly members have used similar tricks to talk their way into the Catalogues of Enlightenment. I mean hell, all the world's truenamers are members, you think none of them ever used hidden truth or universal aptitude on the way into the Catalogues? They'd get a great laugh out of Snow's story.)
Taking crusader at 20 is mostly just because the core jokes are all done, more paragnostic apostle wouldn't really make the rocs any stronger (I considered taking Divine Understanding to make the rocs last an extra 8 hours, but that seemed unnecessary), gotta go somewhere else… ah, how about having a bunch of White Raven maneuvers? Leading the Charge gives all my roc friends (and other friends, and myself) within 60 ft a +10 typeless bonus on damage rolls while charging (which can be +20 for the rocs if they make a dive attack, which any flying creature with claws or talons can do; see Rules Compendium 27). The other maneuvers are just kind of generically fun, not exactly build-defining, but Leading the Charge was one of the biggest multitarget damage boosts I could squeeze out of a single level, so that felt like it was worth the effort.
The general intent of the build is for Snow to ride one of his rocs. That's just generally very funny to me, especially since it effectively makes him Gargantuan in certain ways (at least for choosing targets). A specialized saddle isn't terribly expensive, and there's no question about the rocs being big enough (the mount just has to be bigger than the rider and there's no rule against it being *much* bigger). I suppose that he's also perfectly fine on the ground, too, but that's not the vision I had for this build. But he's not helpless or nonfunctional when he's gotta walk for some reason.
Reminder that wind walk, Snow's second godly gift, can be used to effectively "pokéball" one or more rocs when space forbids them from fitting somewhere normally (although I'd like to believe that TG would mostly send Snow on quests to places where he can bring his full contingent of giant birdies); it lasts hours, it targets a bunch of critters, and they can shift into and out of gas form multiple times over the course of the duration. Sure, you can't switch in a single round, but that's not the approach we're trying to take in the first place. We just want to get the rocs through the door, and/or keep them safe while we're busy indoors. And yes, at the VERY high end, there may be one more roc than you can target with wind walk, but it will forgive you if it has to wait somewhere else. (There's no limit on the range of the telepathic commands, after all! You don't share senses or anything, but you can still just have it hang out wherever and then telepathically call it back when you're ready.)
If I'm the leader of a whole gang of enormous birds, does that make me a roc mobster?Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards Originally Posted by willpell
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2024-01-14, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
And here's the chair's just for fun non-entry! Don't judge this one.
Originally Posted by The Viscount
Francis Dolarhyde, Chrysalis of Potency
CE Fireblood Dwarf Soulborn 8/Divine Crusader 2/Divine Agent 10
Stats
SpoilerStr 16
Dex 10
Con 14 (16) Increases at 16, 20
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16 (14) Increases at 4, 8, 12
Story
SpoilerI hear his voice and I carry out his will. He is with me increasingly, and more and more I am him, rather than with him. They do not yet see, but you will. I am owed awe.
Build
SpoilerLevel Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features 1st Soulborn 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Knowledge (religion) 4, Tumble 4 Apprentice (Philosopher)(Knowledge (religion), Sense Motive) Aura, Smite Opposition 1/day, Dragonscale Husk, Skilled City Dweller (Ride to Tumble) 2nd Soulborn 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Knowledge (religion) 5, Tumble 5 Incarnum Defense 3rd Soulborn 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Knowledge (religion) 6, Tumble 6 Weapon Focus (Claw), (B)Sapphire Smite Bonus Feat 4th Soulborn 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Knowledge (religion) 7, Tumble 7 5th Soulborn 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Heal 1, Tumble 8 Smite Opposition 2/day 6th Soulborn 6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Intimidate 1, Tumble 9 Shape Soulmeld (Dragon Tail) 7th Soulborn 7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Intimidate 2, Tumble 10 (B) Healing Soul Bonus Feat 8th Soulborn 8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Intimidate 3, Tumble 11 Chakra Binds (Crown, Feet, Hands) 9th Divine Crusader 1 +8/+3 +8 +2 +4 Intimidate 4, Tumble 12 Bonus Essentia Aura, Skilled City Dweller (Ride to Tumble), Dragon Domain 10th Divine Crusader 2 +9/+4 +9 +2 +5 Intimidate 5, Tumble 13 11th Divine Agent 1 +9/+4 +9 +2 +7 Intimidate 6, Use Magic Device 3 Destruction Domain, Dragonscale Husk 12th Divine Agent 2 +10/+5 +9 +2 +8 Intimidate 7, Use Magic Device 6 Open Lesser Chakra (Brow) Contact 13th Divine Agent 3 +11/+6/+1 +10 +3 +8 Intimidate 8, Use Magic Device 9 Menacing Aura, Godly Gift (Greater Magic Fang) 14th Divine Agent 4 +12/+7/+2 +10 +3 +9 Intimidate 9, Use Magic Device 12 Altered Appearance 15th Divine Agent 5 +12/+7/+2 +10 +3 +9 Intimidate 10, Use Magic Device 15 Imperious Command Commune, Plane Shift to Deity’s Plane 16th Divine Agent 6 +13/+8/+3 +11 +4 +10 Intimidate 13, Use Magic Device 16 Godly Gift (True Seeing) 17th Divine Agent 7 +14/+9/+4 +11 +4 +10 Intimidate 17 Plane Shift to Any Plane 18th Divine Agent 8 +15/+10/+5 +12 +5 +11 Intimidate 21 Open Greater Chakra (Waist) Audience, Alignment Shift 19th Divine Agent 9 +15/+10/+5 +12 +5 +11 Intimidate 22, Sense Motive 3 Mystic Union, Godly Gift(Dominate Monster) 20th Divine Agent 10 +16/+11/+6/+1 +12 +5 +12 Intimidate 23, Sense Motive 6 Gate
Level 5
SpoilerThe premise is simple, this is a tribute build. I had the idea and couldn’t get it out of my head, so I put it here. Admittedly, liberties are taken in shifting the race from human to dwarf, but dragonblooded worked exceptionally well from a flavor standpoint. I couldn’t resist the opportunity to work in as much red dragon as possible. Certainly a version of this build that begins with vanilla Human and spends the feat on Dragontouched would also work, but it doesn’t feel as clean to me. Silverbrow human clashes too much flavorwise.
Yes, I made another Soulborn, take a shot, etc. I needed full base attack for Divine Crusader so I could finish the SI, and I wanted to do Incarnum as a way of representing the there and yet not there draconic aspects that Dolarhyde manifests. Soulborn checked those two boxes. If you have the dragonblood subtype you can shape the souldmelds found in Dragon Magic. The Claws of the Wyrm and Dragon Tail (not to be confused with the feat) are significant because unlike other melds, they give a natural weapon when shaped, no bind required. I’m assuming one and then eventually both of these will be shaped most of the time. Dragonscale Husk is an ACF I’ve chosen for flavor. Normally I wouldn’t use it since being unable to gain any other type of bonus to AC isn’t often worth it, but with enough class levels in heavy armor proficiency, we’ll end up with +12 to AC (untyped, so presumably applies to touch AC) and resistance 15 against fire, acid, cold, and electricity at higher levels. Pretty nice.
Apprentice (Philosopher) is necessary to get the ranks in K(religion) needed for Divine Crusader and the SI. Skilled City Dweller (best ACF ever) is used, as I essentially always do, to get tumble, because tumble is good.
Level 10
SpoilerDivine Crusader is a way to gain fast casting, at the cost of only casting from domains. For deity I’ve chosen Garyx, the red dragon god of destruction, extremely on brand. The deities in Draconomicon list two favored weapons, in this case claw and sickle. I took claw since I’m using Claws of the Wyrm. If for whatever reason taking WF (claw) isn’t accepted, spending it on sickle works fine. For domains we’re starting off with the dragon domain (naturally).
When you unlock binds at 8, Claws of the Wyrm’s Hand bind increases the damage one step, which is nice. If you’d like to spend your bind elsewhere, the Thunderstep Boots are popular for a reason, stunning on a charge is nice.
The Dragon Tail is too good thematically to pass up, so we’re going to spend the feat to nab access to it. Soulborn is essentia starved, so bonus essentia helps. Don’t forget the 2 more essentia we’re getting from Sapphire Smite and Healing Soul.
Level 15
SpoilerDivine Agent grants access to a second domain with Destruction, doubling our spell list. Because it grants proficiency with all armors, you can stack it with Soulborn levels for advancing Dragonscale Husk. Check out that UotSI! The granted power of Destruction domain is a smite, so we can squeeze some extra use out of Sapphire Smite. The SI grant’s UMD, which I couldn’t not take. Access through wands expands the effective list out to cover utility and specifics you don’t otherwise have. Greater Magic Fang’s bonus is the same as the essentia bonus for Claws of the Wyrm and Dragon Tail, so you can save and invest the essentia elsewhere. Contact and Commune are ordinarily whatever abilities, but they do pair nice flavorfully. I think you can guess at this point how altered appearance changes the look.
Fearsome Mask is a Soulborn exclusive meld, the brow bind gives you a fear gaze, so I took open chakra to get access to it. Continuing to pursue the theme of inspiring terror in lesser beings, I took Imperious Command to stack the fear.
Level 20
SpoilerGodly gift choices here are more than just extra uses. Taking it for true seeing is a way to bypass the cost for an excellent utility ability. Dominate monster is a spell you ordinarily wouldn’t be able to cast, since your effective casting tops out at 6ths. (Technically 7ths, but with 0 per day you’re not going to be casting them without items.) Mystic Union is a culmination of what Dolarhyde’s imagined apotheosis would be, and opening a gate to Pandemonium is a surefire way to get the awe he is owed.
Dragon Tail, when bound to the Waist Chakra, gains reach and goes up in damage, so it felt like a natural choice.
Sources
SpoilerSoulborn, Soulmelds, Bonus Essentia, Shape Soulmeld, Open Lesser Chakra, Open Greater Chakra: Magic of Incarnum
Fireblood Dwarf, Dragonscale Husk, Dragon Tail, Claws of the Wyrm
Divine Crusader: Complete Divine
Garyx, Dragon Domain: Draconomicon
Apprentice: Dungeon Master’s Guide II
Skilled City Dweller: Cityscape Web Enhancement
Imperious Command: Drow of the Underdark
Weapon Focus: PHB
Image: William BlakeKolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards Originally Posted by willpell
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2024-01-14, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
And that's our entries for the round! Judges, over to you!
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards Originally Posted by willpell
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2024-01-14, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Am I dreaming or is there 2 weird cat builds ? And 2 Shamans two (even if one is realllllly obscure haha)
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2024-01-14, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Oh my...
Okay, I'm still in.
Firstly about my idea.
It was Half-Fiend, Durzagon Fiend of Blasphemy 2/Something with good Will 2/SI 9. Deity - Iborighu, heretic of the faith (Winter), Fimbulwinter as gift and this image:
, but... I though Durzagon has LA +2 (((If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2024-01-14, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
I can't properly express how much of a relief this reveal is. I'd been worrying that someone else was going to do [redacted] for sure, but that somehow didn't happen! Looking very much forward to judgements.
Also, overall just a solid round entry-wise, lots of interesting ideas that I'd never in a million years have thought of.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
Come join the new Junkyard Wars and build with SLAs and a breath weapon!
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2024-01-14, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
I tried to build something around the alignment shift by worshipping Shekinester, who has multiple alignments. Couldn't find stuff that was interesting enough to do with that, though I really tried. Locks you out of non-alignment stuff, and anything that forbids evil acts (like worshipping an evil deity) but lets you count as Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful and True Neutral simultaneously.
Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!
Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2024-01-14, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
My unfinished concept was looking at the rules for ex-agents (where your deity can't take your godly gifts back) and wondering how much of a god's power you can hold onto after betraying them.
SpoilerKas the Twice-Triumphant
CE Spell-stitchedCArc NecropolitanLM Ex-Vecna-bloodedMM5 PrimordialSoX Old Lesser half-giantCPsi
Cleric of Vecna 10/Divine AgentMotP 9/SpelldancerMoF 1 --> Ex-Divine Agent 9/Spelldancer 1/DefiantPlH 10
Feats: Human HeritageRoD (allows a Giant to become a necropolitan), Southern MagicianRoF (allows you to spellstitch yourself through a technicality)
Spelldancer is there to let you apply metamagic to SLAs, of which you have many (which also get +1 CL thanks to Primordial Giant).
Then I got hung up on the idea of receiving Mordenkainen's disjunction as your godly gift, yelling "Vecna you fool, it was I reborn all along!" and using it destroy his Eye while it was attached to your own head (but surviving somehow and becoming a Defiant to make up for your loss of casting). But even that pact spell which auto-revives you explicitly says that you're entrusting your lifeforce to your deity, so...
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2024-01-15, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
I played around with using Prehensile Tail to get some real value out of the usually cosmetic Altered Appearance. Between the actual tail attacking tail that I'd need to qualify for the feat and the Altered Appearance tail, I'd have two extra hands with which to qualify for Multitasking. Then I was hoping to use Outsider typing from Mystic Union to Polymorph into an Arrow Demon and just multitask the crap out of Greater Manyshots and Symmetrical Archery. Unfortunately, I had misremembered the Transformation domain as being available to creatures of the shapechanger subtype of any deity, when in fact it is available to shapechangers with no deity, so my plan to graft the subtype on with the Were-Glade (which you can also use the Higher Order ability of to temporarily push the CL of SLAs like Godly Gifts and the SI's Gate since it adds HD while in effect) and just get transformation from the SI's granted domain didn't work out. Stub was Silverbrow Human (Talaire) Ranger 6/Consecrated Harrier 4/SI 10.
Iron Chef Medals
SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII
Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII
Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII
Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII
Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII
Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX
The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI
Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV
Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2024-01-15, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
And table.
# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Deity Chef Total Place 1 Jae Wes LN Lesser Aasimar Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Divine Agent 10/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5 Wee Jas 2 Echo, part 2 TN→NE Incarnate Construct Dustform Nymph→Spellscale Druid 1/Blighter 4/Warblade 1/Divine Agent 10/Nature's Warrior 5Velsharoon 3 Navtej CE→NG Abyssal Skulker Brahmin 3/Fiend of Possession 1/Divine Agent 10/Fiend of Blasphemy 2 Lakshmi 4 Schroedinger's Tibbit TN Tibbit Sha’ir 6/Malconvoker 4/Divine agent 10 Schrödinger 5 Larry TN Tibbit Invisible Fist Monk 2/Shaman 4/Sacred Fist 3/Swordsage 1/Divine Agent 10 Cat Lord 6 Iago CE Major Silver Dragon Bloodline Primordial Half-Giant Duskblade 1/Warblade 1/Death Delver 3/Divine Agent 10/Contemplative 1 Beshaba 7 Ghrond Ironhand CE Human Paladin of Slaughter 4/Divine Agent 10/Warblade 6 Erythnul 8 Piotyr Icevein LG Neanderthal Favored Enemy Paladin 2/Cleric 3/Divine Agent 10/Ordained Champion 5 Heironeous 9 Ketos NG Anthopomorphic Ballen Whale → Tibbit Drow Fighter 1/Stoneblessed 3/Pious Templar 1/Divine Crusader 1/Ruathar 1/Divine Agent 9/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Shaper of Form 1 Garl Glittergold 10 Snow CG Illumian Planar Paladin of Freedom 4/Divine Agent 10/Thaumaturgist 4/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Crusader 1 Tuilviel Glithien 11 Francis Dolarhyde, Chrysalis of Potency CE Fireblood Dwarf Dragonscale Husk Skilled City Dweller Soulborn 8/Skilled City Dweller Divine Crusader 2/Dragonscale Husk Divine Agent 10 Garyx
Echo, you didn't make my work easier. )))Last edited by loky1109; 2024-01-18 at 02:18 PM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2024-01-15, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Three Tibbits total! Amusing when nearly a third of the entries end up being the same exotic race. Perhaps it's the most fitting race thematically for Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX Originally Posted by Paragon
Last edited by Rebel7284; 2024-01-15 at 10:18 PM.
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2024-01-15, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)Dwarf in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Loving these! So many paths to take with the nutmeg of secret ingredients.
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2024-01-18, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Okay, I read all entries yesterday. Now I need to re-check my criteria. It’ll take two or three days. Then I'll get down to judging. I think this will take at least a week, maybe two.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2024-01-18, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Thanks for the update, loky!
Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!
Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2024-01-19, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Having had some time to read the entries in more depth: they're great, and many go into a direction I altogether did not expect.
One half-formed idea of mine was to somehow work fighter 8 into a build: Armor of God is an obscure ACF that lets you switch your base Will save to an AC bonus for a turn. Divine Agent both offers good Will and an ability reliant on creatures attacking you but missing, so if I was ever going to make that ACF shine, this'd be the place. However, the need to get 2nd-level divine spells with only 2 levels left forced me to go Bone Collector, for a final build of Fighter 8 / Bone Collector 2 / Divine Agent 10 (which would be able to use Armor of God to swap 12 points of Will over to AC at-will).
I toyed with making the build worship Eilistraee; the Elf domain would give me standard-action Antipathy, and the Darksong Knight substitution levels would let me trade some HP for slightly more utility in and out of combat. Alternatively, something that grants Mind Blank might be useful to cover up the gaping hole I'd left in the build.
I even considered using adept for one idea: I wanted to do something involving a large forced alignment shift, but I still needed a domain... so enter Eberron's adepts, which get a domain and have no restrictions on alignment. That didn't really end up going anywhere, but I'm sure I could've stretched it even further: the synergy between a familiar and maxed-out UMD are self-evident, for one.
Also, I'm a bit surprised to see nobody went with the Joy or Pain domains to get standard-action Ambrosia or Liquid Pain harvests going. Component-free Permanency (Time) or standard action Reincarnate (Renewal) also seemed like funny options to build a character around.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
Come join the new Junkyard Wars and build with SLAs and a breath weapon!
Interested in judging a build competition on the 3.5 forums but not sure where to begin? Check out the judging handbook!
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2024-01-22, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Out of curiosity, how many judges do we have? I see Loky1109 is actively working on judging. Are there others?
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2024-01-23, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
I'm looking at options for next round. Reaching deep into the barrel of oddities, we've got
- Bigger than before
- The goth dream
- The consequences of my actions
Last edited by The Viscount; 2024-01-23 at 08:49 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards Originally Posted by willpell
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2024-01-23, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Bigger than before!
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2024-01-23, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Consequences
Iron Chef Medals
SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII
Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII
Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII
Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII
Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII
Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX
The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI
Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV
Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2024-01-24, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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- Mar 2020
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- Moscow
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Consequences.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2024-01-24, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
The goth dream.
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2024-01-24, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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- Feb 2021
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- France
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Conséquence !
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2024-01-24, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Let's do The Goth Dream.
Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
Come join the new Junkyard Wars and build with SLAs and a breath weapon!
Interested in judging a build competition on the 3.5 forums but not sure where to begin? Check out the judging handbook!
Extended signature!
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2024-01-24, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)Dwarf in the Playground
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- Maryland, USA
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Consequences!
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2024-01-24, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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- Mar 2020
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- Moscow
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
My criteria are rechecked. Maybe I'll post them today later or tomorrow.
I hope I'll start to re-read entries second time tomorrow.If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2024-01-24, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)Dwarf in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
I'll vote consequences.
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2024-01-24, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals! Originally Posted by weckar
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2024-01-27, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX
My judging criteria.
Originality. Starts at 3. Most subjective part. I look at races, classes, prestiges, feats and clever tricks. Combo that involves SI may be reviewed in UoSI section.
Power. Starts at 0. I have four parts 1.5 points in each. Yes, I know what 1.5x4 is. )
Offense. How good are you at making damage? Attack bonuses, damage, attack options, rider effects, etc.
Defense. Your hp, saves, AC and other defense options.
Utility. Being face, scouting, making money, tracking, mobility options, healing, buffing, etc.
Flexibility and Endurance. It isn't good for you to be able to do your main uber-trick once per week. Also it isn't good if you need to prepare specifically for every case in advance without the ability to adjust on the fly.
Elegance. Starts at 5. I search for any mistakes, inaccuracies, ambiguity and give you a penalty. In rare cases when I find something pretty clever I can add some bonus.
TO RAW is always less than RAI. There is no way you could make me believe in d43 damage dice and similar nonsense.
Cross-setting materials isn't something harmful if you know when to stop.
Multiclassing isn't sin, either. Multiclass XP penalty - opposite.
I don't like missed opportunities. If you take toughness five times it isn't pretty elegant in my book.
I look at formatting. Your entry should be easy to read. All skills in place, all feats clearly came from (regular, bonus, some free, etc.), there are right full sources, etc.
UoSI. Starts at 0.
Did you qualify for SI (and don't fall after)? - +1 if all is ok. If it isn't... Well, if issue could be easily solved maybe 0, maybe something between. If issue is unsolved you just get 1 point in UoSI.
Did you enter SI early? - up to +0.5.
Did you finish SI? - up to +0.5. Maybe some decrease if you finished SI very late.
Did you use all SI abilities (Advancing Spellcasting, Weapon and Armor Proficiency, Granted domain, Contact, Menacing Aura, Godly Gift (1st, 2nd and 3rd), Altered Appearance, Commune, Plane Shift to Deity's Plane, Plane Shift to Any Plane, Audience, Alignment Shift, Mystic Union, Gate) at all? - up to +0.15 each.
Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? - up to +0.5 each.
It isn't enough just to have, for example, Plane Shift and saying: "It is useful for everybody and for me, too." No, you should have something on top of that.
Combo, in turn, is something that you need to come up with, something creative.
Did you use SI prerequisites or just take it and forget? - up to +0.5.
Does you entry thematically fit the SI? - between -0.5 and +0.5.
Maybe SI made your entry worse than it could be without SI? - up to -1.Last edited by loky1109; 2024-01-29 at 09:55 AM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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