OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[Unoriginal]

Star metal also doesn't return when thrown.

Indeed. That has nothing to do with the starmetal.

A DM has full discretion when assigning attributes to metals in a campaign; that's hardly a rules violation.

Who said anything about rule violation?

We were talking about rules being discarded. A DM has full authority over what rules they chose to apply or ignore, that does not mean that not applying a rule isn't discarding the rule.

A rule violation would be something like using a loaded dice set or not subtracting damage to HP, not things that would happen in this comic.

But take it as one, if you like because it is one, not hundreds, of violations.

Who said anything about hundreds?

And the Sonic damage from the Control Weather spell was divine intervention, with Thor being shown to have done the deed, not an alternative use of the spell that any cleric can use. Again, not a rules violation.

Again, no one was talking about rule violation. Thor doing the deed is explicitly portrayed as a discarding of the rules,

And I have agreed with this. The author does not care about the rules, he cares about the story. It is my exact thesis from my previous post.

Then why are you arguing that the author never (or very rarely, since you're willing to let me "take it as one") discarded/ignored game rules (or as you put it, The Rules) for the benefit of the story?

[Liquor Box]

No, we can't. We can suspect that it is, but that's a pretty small sample size, and randomness means that it's not impossible to grt a run of 90 head results in 100 flips. It's unlikely, sure, but not impossible, and we can't conclude from that small number.

Almost nothing is impossible, but that is exceedingly unlikely. The chance is less than one in a trillion. I think it is small enough to conclude that there's a biased coin - not to the level of absolute certainty, but enough so that the chances of it happening randomly can be discounted.

[Throknor]

Shifting focus slightly...how do you think Rich prioritizes ("puts the effort in") to the following, and by what relative proportion?

1. Narrative
2. Humor
3. Layout
4. Rule (RAW) adherence

Who said anything about discarding the rules? There's a near-infinite number of ways to deviate from the rules without discarding them. No small amount of which have been used in OotS. Which is why i said that it's not a 50/50 chance, since "follow the rules exactly to the letter" is only one possible route and "deviate in X way" is any number of possible routes. Also, the author has directly said, and offered diagrams, that he doesn't care about strict, to-the-letter adherence to the rules.

I'm not following this debate closely but I'm compelled to interject that (IIRC) in the Blood commentary Rich admitted that Break Enchantment takes 10 minutes and Durkon wouldn't have Detect Magic available again. While the second has the thumb-induced break as a factor they both fit into the 'story over rule verification' column. This feels deep in the 'A Wizard Did It' territory with the added fun that people think they can deduce exactly how a wizard would do it.

[H_H_F_F]

Doubly so since we're literaly talking about a cosmetic effect here. For a spell which, if we were literally interpreting the text, the dragon should not even be able to cast (cause he doesn't have hands). I mean. If we want to be stupid level literal here.

Rich has deviated far more from "the rules" in the past than this one.

If you wanna play this by the rules, Rules Compendium says "A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body." claws instead of fingers are fine. Not moving your body, and having spells shoot from the eyes, is strange.

No, we can't. We can suspect that it is, but that's a pretty small sample size, and randomness means that it's not impossible to grt a run of 90 head results in 100 flips. It's unlikely, sure, but not impossible, and we can't conclude from that small number.

Getting a googolplex heads in a row with a fair coin is improbable, not impossible, either. The rest of your point has nothing to do with sample size. The argument wasn't "we analytically know that X", it was "we conclude that X". Concluding stuff through induction is at the basis of pretty much everything we do, and it seems weird to say it can't be done in this context.

Which leads us back to the claim that the sample size is small. I'll assume that we're saying it's too small for the evidence to be overwhelming. It supremely isn't, despite our intuition saying so. You've got a better chance of winning the powerball by buying a single ticket twice in a row than getting 90 or more heads out of a 100 coin flips with a fair coin.

[Grendelkin]

That Polar Ray must have taken quite a bit out of V...

I hope it doesn't count as two Polar Rays or V is in serious trouble.

That's one thing V didn't extrapolate from Xykon during their battle: 'If you're going to use a type of damage, try to have an item or something that makes you immune to it - or at least resistant.'
A couple of extended protection from energy-spells wouldn't go amiss, either.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, that was about AoE damage spells, especially the type that can catch you in the radius. Which is why Xykon could get away with casting a Stilled Meteor Swarm at point-blank range.

[Grendelkin]

To be sure. It would be nice to see V take that to the next level by improving their personal defenses, be it by doodads or spells, though. Learning the lesson and taking its wisdom to the next level.

[Peelee]

Almost nothing is impossible

That sounds nice on a T-shirt but isn't actually true.

[Vikenlugaid]

I think you're forgetting that most readers of the comic don't spend an unhealthy amount of time keeping up with these forum threads debating every possible plot twist. For normal people (i.e. not us), that was a pretty neat twist.

I totally second that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Star metal also doesn't return when thrown.

I get the idea that this power is linked to the weapons of legacy book, and Roy's discovery of various powers as he uses his grandfather's reforged sword.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1010.html and other strips on the ship and elsewhere.

Indeed. That has nothing to do with the starmetal.

Perhaps the starmetal enhanced some of the sword's latent powers? It did increase it's magical + to hit ...

As to Thor: Thor's gonna be Thor.

[Precure]

Starmetal powers are rule breaking by its nature of being "wishy washy emotional magic" with impossible to predict results, according to Eugene the Wizard.

[Grendelkin]

I thought that was Eugene's comment on the powers of a Weapon of Legacy being connected to emotion, rather than wizardly construction of spells. I'm not sure whether he even knows the sword has been reforged with starmetal; his only concession to the importance of the greenhilt sword to his family seems to have been that he didn't just dump or destroy it after Horace passed away.

[gbaji]

If you wanna play this by the rules, Rules Compendium says "A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body." claws instead of fingers are fine. Not moving your body, and having spells shoot from the eyes, is strange.

At question is not the fact that there's an "S" in the spell requirements list, but that the text actually says that the ray "srpings from your hand". To be perfectly honest, if I was GMing D&D, I'd allow ray type spells to be fired from whatever body part the caster wanted, as long as they meet the other requirements for casting the spell. At the end of the day, that's a purely cosmetic difference and I don't care about it one bit.

I doubt Rich does either.

I thought that was Eugene's comment on the powers of a Weapon of Legacy being connected to emotion, rather than wizardly construction of spells. I'm not sure whether he even knows the sword has been reforged with starmetal; his only concession to the importance of the greenhilt sword to his family seems to have been that he didn't just dump or destroy it after Horace passed away.

Yeah. My assumption is that the only effect from the starmetal itself is the +5 bonus, and the occasional green glow that does extra damage to undead. The other effects (like healing up Roy, and returning to his hand), are from it being a Weapon of Legacy.

[Grendelkin]

The green glow and extra damage to undead did get mentioned as side-effects of reforging the sword with starmetal by the master bladesmith, back in Azure City.
But can we be sure that the Greenhilt sword wasn't already in the process of becoming a Weapon of Legacy even then? If so, then the glow might have been incorporated into the Legacy effect as the sword 'evolved' with Roy's adventures and his continuing dedication to it.

And possibly it did none of this for Horace because to him, it was just 'my sword'. He took good care of it and used it well, but he didn't have a problem with handing it off to Roy in the middle of battle. To him, it would have been the tool of his trade, but not a symbol.

[Precure]

Green light effect is part of every unusual power the sword shown to have, so the source must be same, whether it's due to starmetal or due to legacy.

[Unoriginal]

Reforging the Greatsword into a +5 starmetal sword after it was shattered by an epic-level Lich against whom the wielder has a blood oath to defeat was likely a significant step into making a Weapon of Legacy.

So it's probable that any power the sword has or will have in the future will be based/themed around the "core" of that green, flame-like effect granted by the starmetal.

That's how legends grow, after all.

[gbaji]

Reforging the Greatsword into a +5 starmetal sword after it was shattered by an epic-level Lich against whom the wielder has a blood oath to defeat was likely a significant step into making a Weapon of Legacy.

So it's probable that any power the sword has or will have in the future will be based/themed around the "core" of that green, flame-like effect granted by the starmetal.

That's how legends grow, after all.

Absolutely. And that's what causes all the other effects. But the "deadly green glow that is particularly harmful to the undead" and the +5 bonus is explicitly stated to be a function of a starmetal forged sword.

The returning and restoration (and probably the whole "he can make it glow for more than a moment at a time while striking" effects seem to be from it becoming a weapon of legacy.

[Doug Lampert]

Which leads us back to the claim that the sample size is small. I'll assume that we're saying it's too small for the evidence to be overwhelming. It supremely isn't, despite our intuition saying so. You've got a better chance of winning the powerball by buying a single ticket twice in a row than getting 90 or more heads out of a 100 coin flips with a fair coin.

I believe this to be incorrect, the chance of winning powerball grand prize on a single ticket is 1 in 292.2 million [Per internet search], twice in a row is thus a chance of 1.17122E-17.

The chance of exactly 90 heads out of 100 tosses from EXCEL is "=(COMBIN(100,90)/2^100", which is 1.36554E-17. About 16% greater than the chance of two lottery wins in a row, and if you throw in the chance of 90 or more heads out of 100 is slightly larger still.

The two are however, surprisingly close.

[H_H_F_F]

I believe this to be incorrect, the chance of winning powerball grand prize on a single ticket is 1 in 292.2 million [Per internet search], twice in a row is thus a chance of 1.17122E-17.

The chance of exactly 90 heads out of 100 tosses from EXCEL is "=(COMBIN(100,90)/2^100", which is 1.36554E-17. About 16% greater than the chance of two lottery wins in a row, and if you throw in the chance of 90 or more heads out of 100 is slightly larger still.

The two are however, surprisingly close.

I did the math but swapped my numbers before posting. Dang, and I convinced myself it was just unlikely enough to make that comparison.

Being "about as likely" still makes my point, I think.

[Unoriginal]

Absolutely. And that's what causes all the other effects. But the "deadly green glow that is particularly harmful to the undead" and the +5 bonus is explicitly stated to be a function of a starmetal forged sword.

The returning and restoration (and probably the whole "he can make it glow for more than a moment at a time while striking" effects seem to be from it becoming a weapon of legacy.

Indeed. That's what I meant earlier.

One could even see a thematic link between Roy getting out of his way to retrieve his sword and restore it, and the sword's capacities to return to and heal him.

[gbaji]

I did the math but swapped my numbers before posting. Dang, and I convinced myself it was just unlikely enough to make that comparison.

Being "about as likely" still makes my point, I think.

Yeah. I think that's certainly close enough that the point is valid.

I'm still not even sure where the whole "roll 90 heads out of 100 coin tosses" bit came from though, but it seemed like a bit of hyperbole in the first place. We're maybe talking odds a bit, but really about behavior patterns by the author (I guess? Kinda lost track honestly). Is he more likely to ignore the statistical damage of two hits of the spell at the spell level required to cast two polar ray spells using the occular feat? Or is he more likely to ignore the spell description which says it's a single beam and emanates from the hands? Do we look through the comic and note that he's usually consistent with spell effects and use? Or do we look through the comic and note that when metamagic feats are used, they are often stated as being used when casting the spell?

I guess techinically both are things that can fall into the "Cool over rules" category. Personally? Either could be the case. Not really important actually. Calder cast a cold based ray spell, and hit V with it. V was badly damaged, but survived. Done. Maybe the details will be clarified in future strips. Maybe not. I'm not sure how much it matters either way. Certianly not enough to insist that it must be one and not the other. I tend towards "he just took artistic license with an otherwise standard casting of the spell" due to it being a simpler explanation, but I'd certainly have zero problems if the next page has Calder complaining that "I used two metamagic enhanced 8th level spells and the wizard is still alive. Bah!".

[Unoriginal]

Do we look through the comic and note that he's usually consistent with spell effects and use?

I think an important part of the argument is that while The Giant is usually consistent with spell effects and use, he isn't always and stated himself he doesn't have "following the game's rules" as a priority.

If everyone was willing to accept the author's words on the topic, there would be a lot less debate about it.

[Mic_128]

One could even see a thematic link between Roy getting out of his way to retrieve his sword and restore it, and the sword's capacities to return to and heal him.

Damn, I really like that. Although now it's making me think of his sword like a rescue puppy

[H_H_F_F]

Yeah. I think that's certainly close enough that the point is valid.

I'm still not even sure where the whole "roll 90 heads out of 100 coin tosses" bit came from though, but it seemed like a bit of hyperbole in the first place. We're maybe talking odds a bit, but really about behavior patterns by the author (I guess? Kinda lost track honestly). Is he more likely to ignore the statistical damage of two hits of the spell at the spell level required to cast two polar ray spells using the occular feat? Or is he more likely to ignore the spell description which says it's a single beam and emanates from the hands? Do we look through the comic and note that he's usually consistent with spell effects and use? Or do we look through the comic and note that when metamagic feats are used, they are often stated as being used when casting the spell?

I guess techinically both are things that can fall into the "Cool over rules" category. Personally? Either could be the case. Not really important actually. Calder cast a cold based ray spell, and hit V with it. V was badly damaged, but survived. Done. Maybe the details will be clarified in future strips. Maybe not. I'm not sure how much it matters either way. Certianly not enough to insist that it must be one and not the other. I tend towards "he just took artistic license with an otherwise standard casting of the spell" due to it being a simpler explanation, but I'd certainly have zero problems if the next page has Calder complaining that "I used two metamagic enhanced 8th level spells and the wizard is still alive. Bah!".

Yeah, my comment was strictly about the simile's vehicle, I don't actually think it's an appropriate one for the current discussion.

I just got triggered by bad probabilistic intuition, which is a niche hobby of mine.

[bunsen_h]

Another possibility is that Roy and V don't really have Mind Blank up (we haven't seen it cast since the vampire fight), and this whole fight is an illusion.

[Kardwill]

Another possibility is that Roy and V don't really have Mind Blank up (we haven't seen it cast since the vampire fight), and this whole fight is an illusion.

That would be a bit of a reheated dish, though ^^

"Seriously? We fell to ANOTHER fantasm? Gods, you guys suck!
- You fell for it too. Twice.
- Yeah, but I'm a ranger. I'm supposed to be crappy at will saves. What's your excuse?"

[Unoriginal]

Another possibility is that Roy and V don't really have Mind Blank up (we haven't seen it cast since the vampire fight), and this whole fight is an illusion.

Varsuuvius indicated they cast Mind Blank as an explanation for how Sunny's last ray didn't affect them.

*Roy wakes up, they're still in the Draketootg pyramid*

[Kardwill]

Varsuuvius indicated they cast Mind Blank as an explanation for how Sunny's last ray didn't affect them.

*Roy wakes up, they're still in the Draketootg pyramid*

*Roy was injured during his first year at fighter school. His father's death, the blood feud against Xykon and Roy's adventuring carreer were actually a fevered dream*

I have flashbacks of that creepy "Buffy" episode in the asylum.

[Grendelkin]

I did not enjoy that episode...

[Taragorn]

Almost nothing is impossible, but that is exceedingly unlikely. The chance is less than one in a trillion. I think it is small enough to conclude that there's a biased coin - not to the level of absolute certainty, but enough so that the chances of it happening randomly can be discounted.

Agreed. I got curious about the math and decided to google it. According to Omnicalulators coin flip probability calculator the answer is there is a 0.000000000000001% chance of getting 90/100 heads.

The coin is definitely biased.