Is Hex worth it at high levels?

[diplomancer]

See my above argument. Why does a magic meteor need you to point? It's magic, why shouldn't it be mental?

Good point. It's in fact even odder to think that you should point, or say something... like meteors have eyes and ears, and the intelligence to understand speech and signs... and the same goes for curses, lightning bolts, etc...

[Segev]

Back on the original subject, I think hex having one or more invocations dedicated to improving it the same way eldritch blast does would not be remiss.

From earlier:

Evil Eye
Prerequisite: must know hex.
When you cast hex, you may choose to have your left eye take on a supernatural appearance denoting its vile power. It may have its sclera turn black or crimson, continually drip tears of blood, glow with power, or any other mark of its supernatural charge. If you do, you may cast it without components (though the eye's transformation makes it obvious you're casting a spell) and as if cast from a spell slot one level higher. As long as your evil eye is showing, you may concentrate on other spells or effects while maintaining concentration on hex. If your concentration is broken, it is broken for all things you are concentrating on at once.

There is room for debate over whether it should have a prerequisite level, and/or shouldn't have the +1 slot level. The slot level increase basically moves the 8 hour duration from level 5 to level 3, and the 24 hour duration from level 9 down to level 7. I don't actually see the 24 duration as that big of an upgrade over the 8 hour duration, though I do see the upgrade to 8 hours as pretty big.

Other ideas:

Hexagram
Prerequisite: must know hex.
When you cast hex from a level 1 spell slot, you may target one additional creature. For each spell slot above level 1, you may target one more creature with the spell, to a maximum of six (when cast from a fifth level spell slot). Each creature has the same curse and therefore the same affected ability.

Cursed Blade's Hex
Prerequisite: must know hex; must have Pact of the Blade
Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with your Pact Blade, you may cast hex on that creature without spending an action. If you are already concentrating on a casting of hex, you may transfer the curse to the creature stricken by your blade without an action, even if the previous victim of the curse is not yet reduced to 0 hp. In either case, the curse is inflicted before damage is rolled for the attack that triggered it.

Bottomless Spite
Prerequisite: must know hex; must be at least 9th level
When you cast hex, you may choose to do so without expending a spell slot. It is not upcast if cast in this fashion.

[diplomancer]

Back on the original subject, I think hex having one or more invocations dedicated to improving it the same way eldritch blast does would not be remiss.

From earlier:
There is room for debate over whether it should have a prerequisite level, and/or shouldn't have the +1 slot level. The slot level increase basically moves the 8 hour duration from level 5 to level 3, and the 24 hour duration from level 9 down to level 7. I don't actually see the 24 duration as that big of an upgrade over the 8 hour duration, though I do see the upgrade to 8 hours as pretty big.

Other ideas:

Hexagram
Prerequisite: must know hex.
When you cast hex from a level 1 spell slot, you may target one additional creature. For each spell slot above level 1, you may target one more creature with the spell, to a maximum of six (when cast from a fifth level spell slot). Each creature has the same curse and therefore the same affected ability.

Cursed Blade's Hex
Prerequisite: must know hex; must have Pact of the Blade
Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with your Pact Blade, you may cast hex on that creature without spending an action. If you are already concentrating on a casting of hex, you may transfer the curse to the creature stricken by your blade without an action, even if the previous victim of the curse is not yet reduced to 0 hp. In either case, the curse is inflicted before damage is rolled for the attack that triggered it.

Bottomless Spite
Prerequisite: must know hex; must be at least 9th level
When you cast hex, you may choose to do so without expending a spell slot. It is not upcast if cast in this fashion.

When considering new invocations, one must be careful not to make it basically a tax. I believe the Evil Eye invocation falls in this category, even without the upcasting. The next two (Hexagram and Cursed Blade's Hex) are fine. As to the Bottomless Spite, do you mean allowing Hex to be cast At Will? Sounds a bit strong, specially when combined with the Evil Eye invocation.

Also, don't forget munchkins and eye patches, sunglasses, etc...:p probably also best to make it clear that the eye transformation cannot be hid by a Disguise Self spell.

[Segev]

When considering new invocations, one must be careful not to make it basically a tax. I believe the Evil Eye invocation falls in this category, even without the upcasting. The next two (Hexagram and Cursed Blade's Hex) are fine. As to the Bottomless Spite, do you mean allowing Hex to be cast At Will? Sounds a bit strong, specially when combined with the Evil Eye invocation.

I am not sure you and I use "tax" the same way. I am going to explain my understanding of it, and ask you to either give me yours and how it's different, or explain how these qualify as a "tax" by the definition I'm going to give, as I am not sure I see it. Thus, I am not sure I see the problem you mean to highlight with that term.

To me, a "tax" is a thing that every member of a particular class or subclass is required to take to actually function the way it's supposed to function. One could make an argument that Hexblade Patron is a tax on Pact of the Blade, if one believes that Pact of the Blade was underpowered enough that it couldn't function properly before Hexblade existed, and needs Hexblade now in order to work.

I have seen arguments that eldritch blast is essentially a tax on all Warlocks, since no Warlock should be without it and it is inherent to functioning "properly." I am not sure I agree, since it is nice, but not that much nicer than firebolt without its invocations enhancing it. Perhaps one might argue that eldritch blast is a tax on those invocations, and the invocations should give them.

So the only way that I think these could be a "tax" is if hex is, like Pact of the Blade, so underpowered that it is probably not worth taking on its own. Even then, these become a tax on hex, itself.

I have seen people argue for picking up hex with Shadow Touched or Fey Touched, so I am not sure it is entirely that weak. Thus, I am unsure how these qualify as a "tax."

I may, again, not be using "tax" the same way you are, and am interested in hearing what you do mean, though.

[diplomancer]

I am not sure you and I use "tax" the same way. I am going to explain my understanding of it, and ask you to either give me yours and how it's different, or explain how these qualify as a "tax" by the definition I'm going to give, as I am not sure I see it. Thus, I am not sure I see the problem you mean to highlight with that term.

To me, a "tax" is a thing that every member of a particular class or subclass is required to take to actually function the way it's supposed to function. One could make an argument that Hexblade Patron is a tax on Pact of the Blade, if one believes that Pact of the Blade was underpowered enough that it couldn't function properly before Hexblade existed, and needs Hexblade now in order to work.

I have seen arguments that eldritch blast is essentially a tax on all Warlocks, since no Warlock should be without it and it is inherent to functioning "properly." I am not sure I agree, since it is nice, but not that much nicer than firebolt without its invocations enhancing it. Perhaps one might argue that eldritch blast is a tax on those invocations, and the invocations should give them.

So the only way that I think these could be a "tax" is if hex is, like Pact of the Blade, so underpowered that it is probably not worth taking on its own. Even then, these become a tax on hex, itself.

I have seen people argue for picking up hex with Shadow Touched or Fey Touched, so I am not sure it is entirely that weak. Thus, I am unsure how these qualify as a "tax."

I may, again, not be using "tax" the same way you are, and am interested in hearing what you do mean, though.

I mean that almost every Warlock will feel the need to take it, by level 5 at the latest (by level 3 if it has the upcast feature). It's a straight- and significant- damage increase, kinda like Agonizing Blast (which is also considered by many a tax on Eldritch Blast builds, except this one applies both to Eldritch Blast Warlocks and Pact of the Blade Warlocks equally).

It's like the new Warlock they tried to sell, where Mystic Arcanums became invocations... but what invocation is going to compete with a 6th level- let alone a 9th level- spell?

[Segev]

I mean that almost every Warlock will feel the need to take it, by level 5 at the latest (by level 3 if it has the upcast feature). It's a straight- and significant- damage increase, kinda like Agonizing Blast (which is also considered by many a tax on Eldritch Blast builds, except this one applies both to Eldritch Blast Warlocks and Pact of the Blade Warlocks equally).

It's like the new Warlock they tried to sell, where Mystic Arcanums became invocations... but what invocation is going to compete with a 6th level- let alone a 9th level- spell?

If they're taxes, then, does that mean hex is just not worth taking as it is? Or are you just saying they're too strong?

[diplomancer]

If they're taxes, then, does that mean hex is just not worth taking as it is? Or are you just saying they're too strong?

Hex on a fullcaster at higher levels is niche. Even more so for a Warlock, considering how Pact Magic works. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's not worth taking or a trap, but its uses are limited. It's still a good option for a Martial who takes Fey-Touched, be the martial a half-caster or, even more so, not a caster at all... but this is because all classes are encouraged to use their "Concentration slot" on something (by the way, and I've just realized this, there's unused design space for martials there).

With this invocation, Hex becomes quite powerful even on a single-classed Warlock... a straight, almost cost-free, damage buff. It's comparable to Agonizing Blast. Slightly less powerful damage-wise but applicable to more damage sources than just Eldritch Blast. And Agonizing Blast is pretty much considered an invocation tax on any Eldritch Blast-based Warlock build.

[Segev]

Hex on a fullcaster at higher levels is niche. Even more so for a Warlock, considering how Pact Magic works. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's not worth taking or a trap, but its uses are limited. It's still a good option for a Martial who takes Fey-Touched, be the martial a half-caster or, even more so, not a caster at all... but this is because all classes are encouraged to use their "Concentration slot" on something (by the way, and I've just realized this there's unused design space for martials there).

With this invocation, Hex becomes quite powerful even on a single-classed Warlock... a straight, almost cost-free, damage buff. It's comparable to Agonizing Blast. Slightly less powerful damage-wise but applicable to more damage sources than just Eldritch Blast. And Agonizing Blast is pretty much considered an invocation tax on any Eldritch Blast-based Warlock build.

I do not see "enables the build" to be "a build tax" if the build is not the only viable build, or the only viable way to use the thing that the build centers around. If hex is useful without building around it, then a thing that enables a build around it isn't a tax, because it's not a tax to use hex. Does that reasoning make sense?

[Frozenstep]

I do not see "enables the build" to be "a build tax" if the build is not the only viable build, or the only viable way to use the thing that the build centers around. If hex is useful without building around it, then a thing that enables a build around it isn't a tax, because it's not a tax to use hex. Does that reasoning make sense?

You can still use eldritch blast without agonizing blast, it still has plenty of value as a d10 long range damaging cantrip with a very good damage type. But Agonizing blast is such a low cost, high reward improvement that even if you're not building towards that kind of caster, it's hard not to pick it up anyway.

That hex feat isn't quite in the same territory...but it's getting there. One of the main reasons you might not pick to use Hex (or at least trade it out later) is that getting the full value out of longer versions of Hex means holding back on other concentration spells. But removing that cost means those other builds suddenly are only a invocation away from getting the value out of hex on top of the stuff they were already doing. OF course, the spell slot cost (depending on how the group does rests, may or may not be an issue) and concentration dropping issues are also things to consider, so it's not quite an auto-pick, but still.

[Segev]

You can still use eldritch blast without agonizing blast, it still has plenty of value as a d10 long range damaging cantrip with a very good damage type. But Agonizing blast is such a low cost, high reward improvement that even if you're not building towards that kind of caster, it's hard not to pick it up anyway.

That hex feat isn't quite in the same territory...but it's getting there. One of the main reasons you might not pick to use Hex (or at least trade it out later) is that getting the full value out of longer versions of Hex means holding back on other concentration spells. But removing that cost means those other builds suddenly are only a invocation away from getting the value out of hex on top of the stuff they were already doing. OF course, the spell slot cost (depending on how the group does rests, may or may not be an issue) and concentration dropping issues are also things to consider, so it's not quite an auto-pick, but still.

I think that probably puts this where it should be. "One invocation pick away" is not "nothing," and other invocations will compete for it. Just as you can play without Agonizing Blast if you're not trying to center your build around eldritch blast, even if you have that as your damage cantrip of choice. Sure, it's "one invocation pick away," but you might have more important things than damage to your build. I know that's weird in white room discussion, but even with combat being the most-developed pillar in 5e, it isn't the only thing people do.

[Chronos]

When I played a warlock, I didn't, in fact, take Agonizing Blast. I probably would have eventually, if I got high enough level, but there were enough other good invocations competing with it that I couldn't justify spending one on just "more damage".

An invocation that lets you use Hex where you couldn't otherwise is worth about the same amount as one that lets you add Cha-mod extra damage where you couldn't otherwise. So it's no more nor less of a tax.

[diplomancer]

When I played a warlock, I didn't, in fact, take Agonizing Blast. I probably would have eventually, if I got high enough level, but there were enough other good invocations competing with it that I couldn't justify spending one on just "more damage".

An invocation that lets you use Hex where you couldn't otherwise is worth about the same amount as one that lets you add Cha-mod extra damage where you couldn't otherwise. So it's no more nor less of a tax.

But there's another functionality to Hex besides damage, that, without concentration and paired with some particular spells, can be very powerful. For instance, shifting a Hex into someone, targeting their Intelligence, while simultaneously casting Phantasmal Force, can easily take someone out of a fight completely. Fail the first save, and now you need to make a check with disadvantage to get out.

[Chronos]

Sure, Hex has other applications besides damage, but damage is the primary one. And Agonizing Blast is more damage than Hex, in most situations (usually 4 or 5, vs. Hex's 3.5), it doesn't take any actions, and even without the invocation you can still use Hex sometimes if you want. I think all of that more than balances out the check-disadvantage rider on Hex, to mean that this Evil Eye invocation would be less of a "must-have" than Agonizing Blast.