Book Club: Player's Handbook II

[Chronos]

Although then in the spells section, they printed a list of just the new spells on the Beguiler list. Leading some new players who didn't read thoroughly to think that that was the entire Beguiler list, and never casting Charm Person, Silent Image, or Sleep.

[pabelfly]

Chapter Two: Expanded Classes

I’ve never really looked at the character theme ideas here before, so reading through them was a first for me. If you do want character or roleplay ideas to take a character class or concept, it seems like a pretty good resource. And a barbarian with a giant butterfly tattoo gets 10/10 for inventiveness, at least.

I liked a bunch of the Expanded Class options. I think quite a few hit the sweet spot for power: strong enough to be worth considering, but not so strong that they overshadow all other options available for that class. I'll post my opinions on a bunch of individual ACFs later though, and give other people the chance to give their opinions first.

Flavour-wise, the Tormented Champion archtype for the Hexblade is totally based off Elric of Melniboné by Michael Moorcock. For those not familiar, the various fantasy serials Michael Moorcock wrote had the forces of Law and Chaos at war, with one side usually dominating. A chosen Champion representing the other side would fight and eventually bring Law and Chaos back to balance, the lead character often tormented by his past and/or the sacrifices he had to make. In fact, I’d say the whole Law versus Chaos alignment aspect of DnD was taken from the series. Nice flavour though.

But enough from me for now, what did everyone else think of the class flavour notes and the Alternate Class Features in the book?

[Cygnia]

I've never wanted to play the Knight from PB2...everyone else, I've played in some fashion.

The ACF Dark Companion is a boon for any Hexblade. Dabbled with Bardic Knack and have made use of the Marshal's Adrenaline Boost in a group with limited healing and Charging Smite for a pally who, for RP purposes, didn't want the special mount and Distracting Attack for a Ranger who didn't want do deal with the bookkeeping for an animal companion.

[Inevitability]

So, the ACFs.


Berserker Strength is really cool conceptually, but the numbers feel a bit awkward. A regular barbarian is getting +4 strength, +4 constitution, +2 on Will, and -2 on AC. A berserker strength barbarian is delaying all that and dropping the bonus HP for... +2 more reflex and DR 2/-? It just doesn't feel worth it unless you have some strategy based on being permanently raging (I do like how that's possible, mind you - I just wish it wasn't the sole reason to be a berserker).

...plus, there's the awkward element of being constantly locked out of rage-restricted actions if the party runs out of healing with you at low HP - there should really have been a clause allowing you to suppress your berserker strength voluntarily once combat has ended.

Bardic Knack is another example of the PHBII trying to be friendlier to low-numbered parties. I don't really have more to say about it than that: it's clearly meant as a band-aid in case there's nine or ten skills your three-man party needs covered with the last teamslot, and it does a fine job at that.

Spontaneous Domain Casting is great! Clerics have a big sameyness problem and getting to spam domain spells is a very reliable way to make yours feel less generic. Often the best choice from an optimization perspective, but superior for building interesting and fun characters as well. Easily one of the best ACFs in the book.

Spontaneous Rejuvenation is there for if you've got a druid and no cleric, I guess. And well, it's fine, though definitely best if your party has a lot of people getting about equally hurt. It's also a nice use for spell slots if you've got wild shape but no natural spell (yet) and want to heal without changing form.

Enough has been said about Shapeshift in the ~20 past years. It's great, it's simple to run, elegant, flavorful, remarkably balanced - but because the thing it's balancing is druid, it's always going to be an enormous power nerf. That's an awkward position to be in, for an ACF.

It's not an ACF, but the druid getting Fhorges as an animal companion option is interesting to me - both because they're remarkably strong for their level (dire bears are CR 7, elephants are CR 7, fhorges are CR 9) and for being (extraplanar). Does any other druid companion have that subtype barring ACFs?

Deity's Favor isn't a bad ACF, it's just... disappointing. Sure, on the right build free temporary HP will be miles more valuable than Weapon Focus... but it's boring. It doesn't combo with anything, it doesn't synergize with anything, it's not memorable or flashy or evocative, it doesn't fulfill any character concepts that buff spells weren't already fulfilling, and worst of all: it doesn't present a reason to not just be a cleric. PHBII could have fixed the favored soul - instead, we get an option that makes it more similar to the cleric, if anything.


The rest to follow.

[pabelfly]

Chapter II: Expanded Classes

I’m not going to comment on every ACF, merely the ones I find interesting or might use in a potential build

Bardic Knack – this gives you a lot more breadth in your skill list, while Bardic Knowledge is geared towards boosting Knowledge checks. Very nice option for a skillmonkey build, and would consider on a Bard over Bardic Knowledge.

Cleric, Spontaneous Domain Casting – spontaneously being able to cast domain spells is an interesting option over Cure spells. If I was going to use prepared Cleric I’d definitely consider this.

Favored Soul, Deity’s Favor – if you don’t want to use a martial weapon, getting temp HP from your buff spells, including on yourself, is a good possible alternative. Cleric is the better buffer due to Divine Metamagic, but if you insist on using Favored Soul instead for some reason, I could see this option being useful.

Fighter, Overpowering Attack – six levels of Fighter before you can use this is fairly rough. Monk gets a better version of this with just one level.

Hexblade, Dark Companion – a -2 to the saves and AC of any enemy it stands next to, no save? That’s (roughly) a 10% higher chance to hit with your preferred spell. A very good alternative to an Animal Companion.

Monk, Decisive Strike – this is something I didn’t know existed and I really like it. Extremely similar to the Fighter’s Overpowering Attack ACF earlier, but you get it at level 1, and it only applies to Monk weapons. I’d optimize it exactly how I would with the Fighter’s Overpowering Attack ACF – Combat Reflexes, Rolibar’s Gambit and Karmic Strike, firstly. Second, large monsters with high STR and Power Attack.

Paladin, Charging Smite – two points of smite damage per Paladin level on a charging attack? I want to combine this with something like Anthro Lion just to get Pounce combined with this and get it on every attack while racking up Paladin levels.

Ranger, Distracting Attack – if you don’t want an animal companion, helping with flanking is not bad.

Rogue, Disruptive Attack – one of my constant criticisms of Rogue has been that unlike other martial builds, there are some builds that it is nearly completely ineffective against. Disruptive Attack lets you instead reduce AC on those enemies. That makes it easier for others to land their hits, including mages targeting touch AC. I’d prefer it if they could do the job themselves, but making it easier for their ally by a significant margin is a good plan B and does make Rogues much more well-rounded.

Scout, Dungeon Specialist – climb speed is nice, so is AC when next to a wall. Not a bad trade.

Sorcerer, Metamagic Specialist – add metamagic to Sorcerer spells without increasing casting time? Amazing option, I use this in most of my Sorcerer builds.

Swashbuckler – this replaces bonus AC that only targets one enemy for a stronger AC bonus that works against all enemies. I’d still not want to do Swashbuckler build though.

Warlock – trade temporary fast healing to damage melee attackers is a nice trade.

Warmage, Eclectic Learning – You get to expand your spell list, which gives you quite a few options, but the spell you get is a higher spell level than normal, so it doesn’t replace Advanced Learning. This is at a really good balance for an ACF. Different, but not markedly better or worse than the original.

Wizard – Trade away your familiar but you get immediate action options, some of which are really good. Urgent Shield, Abrupt Jaunt, Glimpse Peril are my \favourites. Instant Daze is the worst, the enemies you’d want to use it on the most will have more HD than you, so you can only use it on the chaff instead.

Overall, a lot of solid options, but little that's overpowered. I really liked them.

[Inevitability]

Finishing up the ACFs - I'll look at pabelfly's takes after.

I think a good ACF should be three things: it should be powerful; something that can be justified over alternate options. It should be combo-friendly; able to interface meaningfully with the vast amount of material 3.5 already contains, and readily be a part of something greater than itself. And it should be memorable: flashy, impactful, fun to see used at your table.

For these reasons, I really, really, dislike Elusive Attack. Is it powerful? No, because it requires six fighter levels, and even then it struggles to make itself more valuable than a feat would've been. Is it combo-friendly? No. And is it memorable? Certainly not: who's going to remember +2 AC? I'd have loved to see something here that actually supported the idea of an elusive, steadily defensive fighter - something transformative and relevant. Getting to ignore harmful conditions a la Iron Heart Surge? Free 5 ft. steps? There's options there!

Counterattack is at least memorable, usable, and solid combo ground, but scales poorly and comes way too late - anything that takes twelve fighter levels should have a massive boon attached. The same goes for Overpowering Strike, which adds insult to injury by being in the same book as Decisive Attack.

But enough negativity, let's look at Dark Companion. I think this deserves to be called 'the ACF that redeemed a class' - if people talk about hexblade, it's often in the context of getting Dark Companion. And what a shining example of how to create class features! Something as simple as 'enemies in a small moveable zone take -2 to AC and saves' becomes evocative and interesting simply by attaching it to a memorable visual manifestation, and the effect is well-matched to the level investment it requires. My only complaint is that they should've made the panther appearance explicitly customizable: I should be able to bring an aquatic elf hexblade with a shark companion, or a goblin with a wolf, without having to bend the rules even a little.

Adrenaline Boost? PHBII has a marshal ACF? Yeah, I didn't know about this, like, at all... aaaaand it's awful. Like, as a foray into martial healing it's very significant, its value is historical if not practical, but again, you're trading a visually impactful full attack enabling mass-reposition for... a little bit of temporary HP. And it's not like Grant Move Action was ever good enough to warrant building a marshal for, either.

What's there to say about Decisive Strike? The effect is good, it's memorable, it'll be helpful for certain character concepts, and it scales very well. The only awkward snarl is that unlike Flurry of Blows it has no restriction on armor - it feels like that should be consistent one way or another.

Some parts of the PHBII give me the impression they were only written to fix some obvious problem that might come up in a PHB-only campaign. Party needs to cover casting and trapfinding with its final slot? Here's the beguiler! The only healer is a druid? Have an ACF for that. Too many skills for the bard to cover? Jack of All Trades should help. Charging Smite and Distracting Attack are clearly here in the same vein, included for campaigns where a companion creature just isn't practical. I don't have much to say about their effects - they're fine, they adequately compensate for the loss, they make good flavorful sense, maybe Charging Smite is a bit boring - but their existence as stopgap fixes is what's most interesting to me.

Actually, Disruptive Attack is in the same boat too. Will you ever want to use it when you could be getting regular sneak attack? Probably not. But will you be very happy to have it in a fight against undead or constructs? Sure! Stopgap fix for campaigns where those foes are common, plain and simple, but with an asterisk for being pretty much worse than Penetrating Strike et al. Also this really should have some kind of scaling, ideally based on the amount of SA dice you're giving up.

Dungeon Specialist is interesting! Fast Movement for a climb speed is a trade that barbarians get to make as well, it's fun, it's very memorable. My only complaint is that it comes pre-packaged with a very mediocre and antisynergistic Evasion replacement. I'd consider this on a Swift Hunter or some other kind of build that doesn't want to take scout 5.

Metamagic Specialist is boring. It's not weak, not at all, but it's just a tax. If your character concept involves spontaneous casting and metamagic, you grab this and you swallow the loss of a familiar, nothing more to it. Also intelligence as the stat of choice is questionable enough already, but especially on a sorcerer with its utter lack of good class skills.

What do I even say about Shield of Blades? If you're a swashbuckler and you TWF, you take this. Otherwise, you don't. It's not a reason to go all the way to swashbuckler 5, it's not going to combo with anything, but at least unlike Elusive Attack it doesn't demand anything from you.

...actually, on a second read, does the 'even unarmed strikes' line suggest an unambiguous resolution to the age-old 'can you dual-wield unarmed strikes' question? Clearly, Shield of Blades doesn't trigger if you attack with a dagger and then with the same dagger again, so it suggests there's ways to make multiple unarmed strikes with 'different' weapons. Also interesting to note this technically gives you a shield bonus if you spend your turn throwing daggers.

Fiendish Flamewreath is good, just held back by being so meager a feature at so high a warlock level - I guess if you're aiming to get Deceive Item, you might as well pick this up along the way. Fun visual, cute impact, a bit niche but melee warlocks are good enough to make it more than viable. I wish warlocks got more ACFs, really. Also fun how it's explicitly a light source.

Eclectic Learning... I don't know. Warmages needed a buff, sure, and arbitrary list expansion is a good enough way to do it. But it's an inelegant solution to the power issue, it's turning the class into a generalist-lite instead of a good evoker. If you committed to warmage, you probably picked it over wizard for real, meaningful reasons - and this feature doesn't play into those reasons, doesn't reward you, it just softens the blow with an unsubtle You Should Have Played A Wizard message. A must-have for warmages, but a terrible reason to play one.

And lastly we come to Immediate Magic. And boy oh boy, do I have thoughts about Immediate Magic. The power level is all over the place, and worse, seems to favor already-strong schools like Conjuration. I like how it makes school specialization matter more, I like how it's not competing for actions with regular spells, I like how flavorful it all tries to be - this is really a perfect feature, except for the utterly bungled balance.
-Instant Shield is boring - weak and boring. Just turn it into a Shield effect, if nothing else, but temporary Freedom of Movement or a reflexive dispel (or semi-dispel) would've been much more impactful and flavorful and just as true to the school.
-Abrupt Jaunt, you know about Abrupt Jaunt. Too good by far, immediate action LoE breaking is insane. Conjuring partial cover, or teleporting after the triggering action, or creating a cloud of mist for concealment would all have been much more balanced.
-Glimpse Peril? Boring again. A save reroll would've been more memorable, or brief blindsight, or even a (weakened) True Strike/True Casting effect on your next action.
-Instant Daze dooms you to single-class wizardy, which is bad. I'd instead give Enchantment the sole friendly Immediate Magic effect, which lets you briefly give morale bonuses to allies. Not enough to step on the bard's toes, but enough to be remembered.
-Counterfire... oh wow, ranged touch attacks and damage, how creative. I don't like this, I don't think the restrictions on this make sense, I think the effect is a bit bland. Temporary Darkness or Gust of Wind would've been more interesting. If we're just dealing damage, I've got half a mind to pattern that on Magic Missile instead of Generic Ray Spell, which'd help minimize the amount of off-turn dice rolling.
-Brief Figment is fine, honestly. Single-use 50% miss chance, in a cool distinctive way, sure. I like this the best of all the canon immediate magics.
-Cursed Glance needs work. I'm generally not a huge fan of Immediate Magic allowing saves, and curses aren't an iconic necromancer wizard effect (compare the levels at which clerics and wizards get Bestow Curse). I think no-save fatigue would've been interesting and impactful, while allowing a combo-focused player to escalate it into brief Exhaustion. Maybe something fear-focused, but perhaps best not to allow escalation then.
-Sudden Shift's climb speed is a bit pointless, and being the only school that gets a chiefly out-of-combat effect is strange too. Maybe this could've been a defensive transmutation, like turning briefly gaseous or jelly-like? Perhaps a downgraded Iron Body type of effect, made a bit more interesting than plain DR?

[pabelfly]

Finishing up the ACFs - I'll look at pabelfly's takes after.

Had a read through of your stuff. A few slightly different takes, but it seems we generally agree on power level and stuff we liked. There was no particularly different take you had that I'd want to argue with you.

[Inevitability]

Had a read through of your stuff. A few slightly different takes, but it seems we generally agree on power level and stuff we liked. There was no particularly different take you had that I'd want to argue with you.

Neither did I find much to argue with in yours! I was mildly amused to see you talk about 'an anthropomorphic lion paladin with Charging Smite', because it reminded me of Galitsur from the Zealot round of VC, but for the most part, no real disagreement. We seem to evaluate features through a slightly different lens, and I think I just like temporary HP less than you, but we seem to be of one mind in most places.

Also, apologies for the slight nitpick, but you refer to overpowering attack as requiring 'six' levels of fighter, that should be sixteen (yeah). Not sure if that was a misreading or a typo.

[pabelfly]

Neither did I find much to argue with in yours! I was mildly amused to see you talk about 'an anthropomorphic lion paladin with Charging Smite', because it reminded me of Galitsur from the Zealot round of VC, but for the most part, no real disagreement. We seem to evaluate features through a slightly different lens, and I think I just like temporary HP less than you, but we seem to be of one mind in most places.

Also, apologies for the slight nitpick, but you refer to overpowering attack as requiring 'six' levels of fighter, that should be sixteen (yeah). Not sure if that was a misreading or a typo.

I got myself mixed up after reading yours - I originally had 16 levels, but changed it to 6 since I thought I must have been mistaken. Was right the first time. Oh, well.

Still, Monk does it far better with Decisive Strike, and you can even try building the character with it from first level. Maybe next time I want to challenge myself doing some char-op with a straightclassed Monk.

[Inevitability]

Still, Monk does it far better with Decisive Strike, and you can even try building the character with it from first level. Maybe next time I want to challenge myself doing some char-op with a straightclassed Monk.

A pity how the realities of monk weaponry make it so that the best weapon to use it with is a plain boring quarterstaff, just because that one lets you add a bigger chunk of strength modifier and power attack bonus damage. Monk weapons in general feel like there's a lot of lost potential there.

[pabelfly]

A pity how the realities of monk weaponry make it so that the best weapon to use it with is a plain boring quarterstaff, just because that one lets you add a bigger chunk of strength modifier and power attack bonus damage. Monk weapons in general feel like there's a lot of lost potential there.

Fortunately, Thurbane has come to the rescue with ways to expand your list of Monk weapons.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...l-Monk-Weapons

There should be a few decent options in there, and if not, I've always wanted to see what I can do with unarmed strikes and Power Attack isn't a completely terrible option with Decisive Strike.

[Reprimand]

I'm curious, what do people think of the starting packages and sample encounters for the new classes? If you had to pick a starting package for each class, which ones would you say are the best?

I'm somewhat astonished that none of the beguilers have Diplomacy, to the point where I had to look back and confirm for myself that it is actually a class skill. One of them is also using medium armor and a heavy steel shield without proficiency in either, which is...a bold choice, I gotta say, but I guess if you want to rock a 40% spell failure chance, you do you. I think the human with the trapfinding skills is probably the best one.

The starting packages for dragon shaman don't include which auras they chose, only which dragon. I find that odd. Honestly, all of them look pretty miserable to me. Two of them take Power Attack even though they have +0 BAB. That's so sad. I guess I'd go with the dwarf, which has Shield Specialization instead.

I'll say this for the duskblade starting packages, they all sure do know how to allocate their ability scores. I hate the feats on all of them, though. I'd probably pick the dwarf because I like the spell selection and dwarves at least have solid racial abilities.

The human knight going ham on mounted feats and not having enough money to afford a mount is such a sad thing to me. I think the dwarf is the winner of the three for me, with the most useful feat and the strongest weapon, although I respect the half-orc's higher Strength score.

I actually kinda like the sample second rank warrior in the book with a long spear. Actually contributes in that 5 x 5 hallway clogged with enemies and can rotate and hold its own. Its definately not a good class but I could definately see a party of like a Barbarian, Dragon Shaman, Druid, Sorceror. All sort of fitting together pretty well.

[holbita]

Thing to note about decisive strike that tends to be overlook... it's a full round action, not a full-attack. And as such is eligible for dividing the action in two standard actions over two turns. What is interesting about this? This actually allows you to move and attack, using your monk speed and decisive strike together... something that our poor little brother flurry of attacks cannot really do by itself. That alone makes it so much better class design than the base... truth is, the monk really suffers from their kit pulling them in very different directions, it's nice they have something like this to unify their playstyle.

[Reprimand]

Thing to note about decisive strike that tends to be overlook... it's a full round action, not a full-attack. And as such is eligible for dividing the action in two standard actions over two turns. What is interesting about this? This actually allows you to move and attack, using your monk speed and decisive strike together... something that our poor little brother flurry of attacks cannot really do by itself. That alone makes it so much better class design than the base... truth is, the monk really suffers from their kit pulling them in very different directions, it's nice they have something like this to unify their playstyle.

Isn't flurry ALSO a full-round action? The neat part about decisive stike is that the double damage DOES apply to AoOs. I've seen some cute stunning fist AoO builds kinda pop off with pharoh's fist from SS.

[holbita]

Actually flurry is a full attack action. They both take a full-round action to perform so usually you don't really care about the distinction but...

Start/Complete Full-Round Action: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/ac...ullRoundAction

The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

Meaning that you can do this with decisive strike, but not with flurry.

[Prime32]

Isn't flurry ALSO a full-round action? The neat part about decisive stike is that the double damage DOES apply to AoOs. I've seen some cute stunning fist AoO builds kinda pop off with pharoh's fist from SS.

I feel like there's potential in Quickening the distracting shout^CPsI power to make everyone around you provoke AoOs, but I'm not sure how to handle the non-scaling Will save to negate.

[Wildstag]

I see a lot of people talking about the Alternate Class Features, and though they are prominent (especially on a board that loves its optimizations), I sometimes like looking through the Character Themes. This time, I looked at some of the classes I rarely pay attention to. A few highlights below. Admittedly, I do like the two Druid ACFs. They make them feel unique in a good way.

Bard: This section has a bit on "How to write a riddle" AND a section on how to write a (basic) cipher. Pretty neat even if they'd almost never show up in actual use at the table. This reminds me of the "Drink and Tell" game from Races of Stone, so maybe it's a Noonan-influenced page?

Cleric: Similarly, I love the "Giver of Blessings" and "Prayerful" pieces. They look like they'd get irritating at the table but they're neat little chunks of realness.

Favored Soul: I'm not a fan of all the prophecy aspects, but the section on "Making a Prophecy" is interesting, but doesn't look like it'd work well as a player-centric thing.

Fighter: The sidebar about scars is really fun to read. These bits of advice and guidance are why I appreciate this book.

Monk: Ugh. It's just pure cringe.

Rogue: I love the suggestions in the "Braggart" and "Common-born Hero" sections, they're really just fun to read.

Scout: The "Military Heritage" (I'd have written it as "Military Background") is a fun read with its suggested 'seven strategic principles'. I can see it being annoying, but also full of character.

Overall, a fun chapter. I love seeing those little nuggets of advice.

[Darg]

I know I'm a little late to the party and I do agree with most of the criticisms of the PHBII classes; however, I would like to point out an avenue of discussion for dragon shaman. The book came out in 2006 and the Draconomicon came out in 2003 with the introduction of metabreath feats. While I can agree that the dragon shaman is a little lacking in most areas, it was given a 1d4 breath that specifically qualifies for these feats unlike the per day versions of half dragon, dragon disciple, and dragon samurai or the at will version from the dragonfire adept.

So while yes the dragon shaman is indeed not quite as excellent at other roles I must disagree that it's a boring class. Most classes don't usually start becoming interesting action wise until 6th level anyways and that is the first level you can qualify for a metabreath feat and they are powerful and can make the class' primary active ability quite the interesting tactical tool. Metabreath feats combine with breath channeling feats quite nicely too.

[AMFV]

I know I'm a little late to the party and I do agree with most of the criticisms of the PHBII classes; however, I would like to point out an avenue of discussion for dragon shaman. The book came out in 2006 and the Draconomicon came out in 2003 with the introduction of metabreath feats. While I can agree that the dragon shaman is a little lacking in most areas, it was given a 1d4 breath that specifically qualifies for these feats unlike the per day versions of half dragon, dragon disciple, and dragon samurai or the at will version from the dragonfire adept.

So while yes the dragon shaman is indeed not quite as excellent at other roles I must disagree that it's a boring class. Most classes don't usually start becoming interesting action wise until 6th level anyways and that is the first level you can qualify for a metabreath feat and they are powerful and can make the class' primary active ability quite the interesting tactical tool. Metabreath feats combine with breath channeling feats quite nicely too.

The issue isn't that it's weak. The issue is that mainly you're there for your aura. So your function is to stand there. You get a metabreath feat... And then your function is to breathe one time at the start of combat and then stand there. It's just not a fun gameplay loop. The auras can be quite powerful. And The Meta breath breath weapon thing is usually impactful for at least a couple turns

[Darg]

The issue isn't that it's weak. The issue is that mainly you're there for your aura. So your function is to stand there. You get a metabreath feat... And then your function is to breathe one time at the start of combat and then stand there. It's just not a fun gameplay loop. The auras can be quite powerful. And The Meta breath breath weapon thing is usually impactful for at least a couple turns

Except you aren't looking at the character as a whole. The character gets medium BAB, medium armor and shield proficiency, and two good saves too. While you aren't a character with a lot of skill points, for the most part the skills you do have are useful even when not fully invested in. The combat loop is as simple as it is for any other medium BAB class and you don't see them sitting back doing nothing. Metabreaths can be incredibly powerful. Set up a heightened maximized clinging breath for 10 rounds and watch as enemies try to remove it and fail, wasting full-round actions and falling prone to improve their odds all while simply dying as you wait for their deaths or remove their heads. I'd argue that a fighter, barbarian, paladin, and ranger are even more "boring" in that they are also incredibly one note in how they approach combat. But what they don't have is an area attack that can shape the battle field to their advantage. What exactly would you argue is more fun about a barbarian mechanically? That they get a once per encounter, x per day rage they can use that gives them higher numbers and then just do the same things the dragon shaman can do without their features? Dragon shaman is not that boring mechanically and I think the issue is that the common thing to do is to conflate numbers with fun and call it a day. The dragon shaman is not a flashy class, but it doesn't need to be. It has tactical elements to it that do provide a neat interaction with combat that is different from other classes and you get unlimited uses of dragon's breath.

[AMFV]

Except you aren't looking at the character as a whole. The character gets medium BAB, medium armor and shield proficiency, and two good saves too. While you aren't a character with a lot of skill points, for the most part the skills you do have are useful even when not fully invested in. The combat loop is as simple as it is for any other medium BAB class and you don't see them sitting back doing nothing.

You do actually unless they have some way to boost their stuff. Clerics can buff themselves up, Druids can buff themselves up. Swordsages get a lot of things so that they're only using their main attack bonus. PsyWars also have lots of self buffs. Rogues have ways of stacking a bunch more damage, and even then they require a TON of work to make decent. Monks are... pretty awful. The combat loop for almost all those classes doesn't involve using their BAB, most of them involve buffing themselves. You see that in PF1E, where they had buffed them.

Metabreaths can be incredibly powerful. Set up a heightened maximized clinging breath for 10 rounds and watch as enemies try to remove it and fail, wasting full-round actions and falling prone to improve their odds all while simply dying as you wait for their deaths or remove their heads.

Clinging breath lasts exactly two rounds

Your breath weapon has its normal effect, but also clings to anything caught in its area. A clinging breath weapon lasts for 1 round. In the round after you breathe

You're thinking of Entangling Exhalation.

When you use your breath weapon, you can choose to enmesh all creatures in its area instead of producing its normal effect. Your breath weapon deals only half its normal damage; however, any creature that takes damage from your breath weapon becomes entangled and takes an extra 1d6 points of damage, of the same energy type as normally dealt by your breath weapon, each round at the start of your turn. This effect lasts for 1d4 rounds

That lasts for a maximum of four rounds, and does only 1d6 damage per round. Damage which isn't maximized by Maximize Breath since that explicitly doesn't modify any of the other effects of the damage.

Heightened only affects the saving throw.

You'll be waiting FIVE additional rounds, so you could be waiting NINE rounds before you get to breath again. And you've spent every single feat you have on that. Every one. You can't get Metabreath feats till level 6, since you don't get your breath weapon till level 4.

Edit: what you can do is take the feat multiple times to make it last longer... But it's halving the damage every round. And you'd have to take the feat NINE times to have it last ten rounds.

I'd argue that a fighter, barbarian, paladin, and ranger are even more "boring" in that they are also incredibly one note in how they approach combat.

I mean you can build a tripping fighter, a charging fighter, a variety of different ranger builds. Paladin gets a bunch of love and options with SotAO and a few other options. They're also a little underwhelming though.

But what they don't have is an area attack that can shape the battle field to their advantage. What exactly would you argue is more fun about a barbarian mechanically?

Ubercharging is a really fun mechanic. Barbarian intimidation can be really fun. Barbarians get a lot of really fun Prestige Classes. I mean those are all fun options.

That they get a once per encounter, x per day rage they can use that gives them higher numbers and then just do the same things the dragon shaman can do without their features

Where are you getting those feats? You don't have the feats to spare for even charging much less the BAB. You're spending all your feats on your metabreath.

Dragon shaman is not that boring mechanically and I think the issue is that the common thing to do is to conflate numbers with fun and call it a day. The dragon shaman is not a flashy class, but it doesn't need to be. It has tactical elements to it that do provide a neat interaction with combat that is different from other classes and you get unlimited uses of dragon's breath.

The Dragon Shaman doesn't get "unlimited use of dragon's breath." You're thinking of the Dragonfire Adept. The Dragon Shaman gets likely one breath a combat.

Edit: Dragon Shaman is a class that could have had a lot of potential. But it just misses the mark. DFA is the class that really fulfills that fantasy in a pretty awesome way.

[Darg]

You do actually unless they have some way to boost their stuff. Clerics can buff themselves up, Druids can buff themselves up. Swordsages get a lot of things so that they're only using their main attack bonus. PsyWars also have lots of self buffs. Rogues have ways of stacking a bunch more damage, and even then they require a TON of work to make decent. Monks are... pretty awful. The combat loop for almost all those classes doesn't involve using their BAB, most of them involve buffing themselves. You see that in PF1E, where they had buffed them.

You're comparing a noncaster with casters and pseudocasters. Not really a fair comparison there. I was never arguing the dragon shaman's power level, just the fact that they aren't actually more boring or incapable compared to other similar classes. I could argue about your characterizations of rogues and monks, but you said nothing about how they are more interesting than the dragon shaman other than the rogue does more damage, with a lot of work.

Clinging breath lasts exactly two rounds

You can stack the effect multiple times on the same breathe. You can make it last as long as you want with the corresponding number of rounds of delay for your next use.

You're thinking of Entangling Exhalation.

While I did mention breath channeling feats in my original post, clinging breath does allow those affected to take a full-round action to attempt another save to remove the effect and with a +2 if they drop prone

That lasts for a maximum of four rounds, and does only 1d6 damage per round. Damage which isn't maximized by Maximize Breath since that explicitly doesn't modify any of the other effects of the damage.

Entangling Exhalation allows your breath to do half damage initially and then 1d6 per round of entanglement. The half damage would be maximized, but the original example was clinging breath and not exhalation.

Heightened only affects the saving throw.

You'll be waiting FIVE additional rounds, so you could be waiting NINE rounds before you get to breath again. And you've spent every single feat you have on that. Every one. You can't get Metabreath feats till level 6, since you don't get your breath weapon till level 4.

Edit: what you can do is take the feat multiple times to make it last longer... But it's halving the damage every round. And you'd have to take the feat NINE times to have it last ten rounds.

You should reread the stacking rules for metabreath feats. You don't have to take the feat multiple times; you just use them multiple times on the same breath, stacking the effect and penalty.

Clinging breath doesn't halve your damage, it does half the damage every round after the first. The whole point of the heighten is to make it incredibly difficult to simply remove the effect or reduce the initial damage in the first place (which subsequently reduces the damage per round). So if I had CON 20 and heightened to +5, the total delay in rounds until I could use the breath again from my example is 1d4+17. Though, it would be unlikely that I'd need to use the breath again after that.

I mean you can build a tripping fighter, a charging fighter, a variety of different ranger builds. Paladin gets a bunch of love and options with SotAO and a few other options. They're also a little underwhelming though.

You can do a whole bunch of different things with dragon shaman based on their unique mechanics just like you are doing with all of those.

Ubercharging is a really fun mechanic. Barbarian intimidation can be really fun. Barbarians get a lot of really fun Prestige Classes. I mean those are all fun options.

Ubercharging is only fun if your DM only ever gives you flat fields and never any difficult terrain or obstacles. Not to mention all the the ways tanking your AC can be heavily exploited to flat out kill you BEFORE you attack. Dragon shaman can pump intimidation too as it's a class skill. PRCs are fully under the purview of your DM. Never are you guaranteed to have a PRC nor are splatbooks the only source of legal PRCs. In fact you are even encouraged by the DMG to design and tailor your own for your campaign.

Where are you getting those feats? You don't have the feats to spare for even charging much less the BAB. You're spending all your feats on your metabreath.

You don't need a feat to charge. The only thing that makes ubercharging stand out is that a barbarian ACF grants a feature more powerful than an epic feat at level 1. Otherwise, it's literally just charging with more attack rolls.

The Dragon Shaman doesn't get "unlimited use of dragon's breath." You're thinking of the Dragonfire Adept. The Dragon Shaman gets likely one breath a combat.

Edit: Dragon Shaman is a class that could have had a lot of potential. But it just misses the mark. DFA is the class that really fulfills that fantasy in a pretty awesome way.

Baseline the breath can be used after 1d4 rounds. If you roll a 1 there is no delay as durations end just before the initiative count they were started on. And while dragon shaman can forego the likelihood of multiple breaths, it can provide a lot of damage and options for that one breath that the DFA just can't (unless you are allowed to pick up metabreaths).

DFA is inherently a selfish class. Everything it does is for itself. Sure it gives you a more breath focused experience, but at the same time you miss out on the PHB2 auras, draconic adaptation, touch of vitality, medium BAB, and armor proficiencies of the shaman. Ultimately they are just completely different classes that fulfill completely different roles and playstyles. To say that DFA is the class that fulfills the dragon breath maniac fantasy is true, but dragon shaman was never intended to be that so comparing the fantasies just doesn't work.

[AMFV]

You're comparing a noncaster with casters and pseudocasters. Not really a fair comparison there. I was never arguing the dragon shaman's power level, just the fact that they aren't actually more boring or incapable compared to other similar classes. I could argue about your characterizations of rogues and monks, but you said nothing about how they are more interesting than the dragon shaman other than the rogue does more damage, with a lot of work.

I was actually comparing to every medium BAB class I could think of. I guess we could add Ninja to that list.

Edit: It is pretty telling that almost every medium BAB base class is a caster or pseudocaster.

You can stack the effect multiple times on the same breathe. You can make it last as long as you want with the corresponding number of rounds of delay for your next use.

That is actually not correct. You can take the feat multiple times. Hmmm, maybe I am misreading that. It's still halving every round though so it's pretty meaningless by round 10. So yes you could apply it multiple times. But it's not going to be very meaningful because:

the clinging breath weapon deals half of the damage it dealt in the previous round

- Emphasis mine.

So that would be halving damage every round. So a 20th level Dragon Shaman would do 60 damage the first round on creatures that didn't save, 30 the following the round on creatures that failed their save, then 15, then 7. That's not particularly great damage for level 20. And you'll find that's the case throughout. You're just not doing that much damage with it. Although I am glad I misread that.. That does make it more powerful.

Edit: 6 rounds would be the maximum at 20th level before it zeros out.

You should reread the stacking rules for metabreath feats. You don't have to take the feat multiple times; you just use them multiple times on the same breath, stacking the effect and penalty.

You should reread the rules for metabreath feats. The Clinging one has a special exception that allows you to use it multiple times. Heighten breath does not allow you to use it multiple times. You can increase the DC by more than 1 though. Eventually though you have to be concerned about potentially running into another combat or something. Again Clinging Breath specifically allows you to use it multiple times on the same breath

Clinging breath doesn't halve your damage, it does half the damage every round after the first. The whole point of the heighten is to make it incredibly difficult to simply remove the effect or reduce the initial damage in the first place (which subsequently reduces the damage per round). So if I had CON 20 and heightened to +5, the total delay in rounds until I could use the breath again from my example is 1d4+17. Though, it would be unlikely that I'd need to use the breath again after that.

Yeah, it's a pretty decent effect, you get to do one fun thing in the combat. And then you don't get to do anything because you have medium BAB which isn't enough to optimize any combat style and you don't have the feats to do any of that cause all your feats are metabreath to optimize the ONE time you get to breath in combat. Again it halves each round. So again at 20th level, you are doing 60 + 30 + 15 + 7 + 3 + 1... 116 damage, if you can get all the enemies that's pretty decent, but you're not likely to be able to. And honestly the enemies aren't going to burn rounds trying to stop 30 damage... or less. And that's 116 damage assuming that they never make any saves.

Edit: Let's compare to Inferno Blast a 9th level maneuver and a bad one. It does 100 damage INSTANTLY in a 60' radius, you can use that more than once in a combat. In fact you can probably use the Instant Recovery feat to use the round after next.

As part of this maneuver, you charge an opponent. In addition, all allies within 30 feet of you at the beginning of your turn can also charge this target as an immediate action. You and allied creatures do not block each other when determining if you can charge. Your charge attack deals an extra 50 points of damage, and those of your allies each deal an extra 25 points of damage. For each ally who charges, counting yourself, your charge attack and those of your allies are made with a cumulative +2 bonus (in addition to the normal bonus provided by charging). An opponent struck by you and at least one other ally is stunned for 1 round.

If you have even one guy that can charge that's WAY more than 116 damage. And we're doing that three levels before the Dragon Shaman. Like the breath is okay, but it's not past okay.

You can do a whole bunch of different things with dragon shaman based on their unique mechanics just like you are doing with all of those.

No you can't... because you spent all your feats on metabreath, if you didn't your breath sucks and if you aren't paying attention to your breath why are you playing Dragon Shaman, just play a Marshall.

Take a look at these:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...o-Melee-Combos

How many of them have no feat investment? None of them. Every single combat style requires some feat investment, or spell investment.

Ubercharging is only fun if your DM only ever gives you flat fields and never any difficult terrain or obstacles. Not to mention all the the ways tanking your AC can be heavily exploited to flat out kill you BEFORE you attack. Dragon shaman can pump intimidation too as it's a class skill. PRCs are fully under the purview of your DM. Never are you guaranteed to have a PRC nor are splatbooks the only source of legal PRCs. In fact you are even encouraged by the DMG to design and tailor your own for your campaign.

I'm confused as to what point you're making here. Barbarians have more published PrCs that are good. Dragon Shamans have ZERO. Most campaigns do not involve DM tailor designed PrCs we have enough play data to know that's the case. In fact most games are not going to allow PrCs that weren't published in a first party book (maybe Dragon Magazine now, because it's become more popular to allow that)

Most enemies aren't going to be able to kill an ubercharger in one hit, they have good HP and they probably have Wall of Blades or some other defensive measure. And if they don't then that's part of that class. It is more fun to charge an enemy and die than it is to stand there doing nothing after the first round and you've blown your breath. That's the issue.

You don't need a feat to charge. The only thing that makes ubercharging stand out is that a barbarian ACF grants a feature more powerful than an epic feat at level 1. Otherwise, it's literally just charging with more attack rolls.

I mean the visual is pretty significant. You need at least a couple feats to be good at charging.

Baseline the breath can be used after 1d4 rounds. If you roll a 1 there is no delay as durations end just before the initiative count they were started on. And while dragon shaman can forego the likelihood of multiple breaths, it can provide a lot of damage and options for that one breath that the DFA just can't (unless you are allowed to pick up metabreaths).

DFA is inherently a selfish class. Everything it does is for itself. Sure it gives you a more breath focused experience, but at the same time you miss out on the PHB2 auras, draconic adaptation, touch of vitality, medium BAB, and armor proficiencies of the shaman. Ultimately they are just completely different classes that fulfill completely different roles and playstyles. To say that DFA is the class that fulfills the dragon breath maniac fantasy is true, but dragon shaman was never intended to be that so comparing the fantasies just doesn't work.

The Auras are not very good, that's why trading them for Invocations is always recommended. I mean low level some of them are okay. Draconic Adaptation only helps you. Medium BAB is not particularly useful. Armor proficiencies are inherently selfish. Dragon Shaman just doesn't do what it's supposed to. It doesn't really buff the party that much. It doesn't really make you feel like a dragon. It's just a dud. And this is coming from somebody who likes optimizing duds. The amount of work you have to do to make a Dragon Shaman playable is bonkers.

Also the DFA Entangling all the enemies round after round is pretty party friendly.

[Darg]

I was actually comparing to every medium BAB class I could think of. I guess we could add Ninja to that list.

Edit: It is pretty telling that almost every medium BAB base class is a caster or pseudocaster.

You don't have to just compare it to other medium BAB classes. It's quite a bit more interesting than a fighter and quite as capable or more so in several ways.

That is actually not correct. You can take the feat multiple times. Hmmm, maybe I am misreading that. It's still halving every round though so it's pretty meaningless by round 10. So yes you could apply it multiple times. But it's not going to be very meaningful because:

- Emphasis mine.

So that would be halving damage every round. So a 20th level Dragon Shaman would do 60 damage the first round on creatures that didn't save, 30 the following the round on creatures that failed their save, then 15, then 7. That's not particularly great damage for level 20. And you'll find that's the case throughout. You're just not doing that much damage with it. Although I am glad I misread that.. That does make it more powerful.

Edit: 6 rounds would be the maximum at 20th level before it zeros out.

You didn't even bother to quote the entire sentence which would have clarified what you claim is incorrect.

In the round after you breathe, the clinging breath weapon deals half of the damage it dealt in the previous round.

When it says previous round it is talking about the round that you use the breath. Technically, if you're trying to make a RAW argument the one you should be making is that any round after the second does no damage because the text never says that they can do damage. Then again, that would literally defeat the purpose of being able to stack the effect so it's a loss either way.

You should reread the rules for metabreath feats. The Clinging one has a special exception that allows you to use it multiple times. Heighten breath does not allow you to use it multiple times. You can increase the DC by more than 1 though. Eventually though you have to be concerned about potentially running into another combat or something. Again Clinging Breath specifically allows you to use it multiple times on the same breath

I mean, we could get into the RAW argument about how metabreaths stack, but that would derail the thread. Just know that the "special exception" is not that they can be used more than once on a breath (that's just a general rule), but rather that they alter how combining effects work. Traditionally, if you use the same effect more than once it works exactly as stated. In the case of clinging breath this would mean that you create multiple instances of clinging breath that all would do their damage in the second round. Stack it 10 times and do 5x the original damage in the second round. The special text works by altering this and instead has it tack on extra rounds instead.

Yeah, it's a pretty decent effect, you get to do one fun thing in the combat. And then you don't get to do anything because you have medium BAB which isn't enough to optimize any combat style and you don't have the feats to do any of that cause all your feats are metabreath to optimize the ONE time you get to breath in combat. Again it halves each round. So again at 20th level, you are doing 60 + 30 + 15 + 7 + 3 + 1... 116 damage, if you can get all the enemies that's pretty decent, but you're not likely to be able to. And honestly the enemies aren't going to burn rounds trying to stop 30 damage... or less. And that's 116 damage assuming that they never make any saves.

Edit: Let's compare to Inferno Blast a 9th level maneuver and a bad one. It does 100 damage INSTANTLY in a 60' radius, you can use that more than once in a combat. In fact you can probably use the Instant Recovery feat to use the round after

Besides the incorrect premise of how clinging breath stacks, at level 1 medium BAB is only -1 AB at level 1 and only -5 at level 17. Yes, it becomes significant, but at the same time it's really not that bad overall. You aren't meant to be the martial god, but saying you can't contribute is minimalist in the extreme.

Comparing a ToB martial to a non-ToB martial is like comparing a Wizard to a warmage to prove that warmage is a terrible class. It doesn't actually do what you think it does.

If you have even one guy that can charge that's WAY more than 116 damage. And we're doing that three levels before the Dragon Shaman. Like the breath is okay, but it's not past okay.

Charging is an action anyone can make... I don't know how you think someone is doing more than 116 damage at level one. It's like you're trying to overexaggerate to prove a point that I'm failing to grasp here.

No you can't... because you spent all your feats on metabreath, if you didn't your breath sucks and if you aren't paying attention to your breath why are you playing Dragon Shaman, just play a Marshall.

Take a look at these:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...o-Melee-Combos

How many of them have no feat investment? None of them. Every single combat style requires some feat investment, or spell investment.

And focusing on your breath combat style requires feat investment. Your argument here contradicts itself.

I'm confused as to what point you're making here. Barbarians have more published PrCs that are good. Dragon Shamans have ZERO. Most campaigns do not involve DM tailor designed PrCs we have enough play data to know that's the case. In fact most games are not going to allow PrCs that weren't published in a first party book (maybe Dragon Magazine now, because it's become more popular to allow that)

PRCs are alternative rules. Judging a class based on rules that aren't guaranteed and when allowed not faithfully followed is not the fault of the class itself. That's on the DM of the campaign. That's like saying being an anthropomorphic whale is better than being human. Objectively true, but it doesn't mean it's always an option.

Most enemies aren't going to be able to kill an ubercharger in one hit, they have good HP and they probably have Wall of Blades or some other defensive measure. And if they don't then that's part of that class. It is more fun to charge an enemy and die than it is to stand there doing nothing after the first round and you've blown your breath. That's the issue.

So, taking one turn and dying while losing a level is more fun than staying alive and contributing more? Your kind of fun just seems much less fun to me.

I mean the visual is pretty significant. You need at least a couple feats to be good at charging.

And again it's hard to know what you are arguing for.

The Auras are not very good, that's why trading them for Invocations is always recommended. I mean low level some of them are okay. Draconic Adaptation only helps you. Medium BAB is not particularly useful. Armor proficiencies are inherently selfish. Dragon Shaman just doesn't do what it's supposed to. It doesn't really buff the party that much. It doesn't really make you feel like a dragon. It's just a dud. And this is coming from somebody who likes optimizing duds. The amount of work you have to do to make a Dragon Shaman playable is bonkers.

Power is a free -1 to -5 for power attack, for everyone in the aura. Senses increases initiative and the ability to notice enemies before they notice you. If you don't know how powerful that is, I can't help you. Medium BAB allows you to have a decent to hit chance and medium armor allows you to wade into the melee with some protection. Making the shaman playable is only as much work as you have to put in for other noncasters/nonpseudocasters.

Also the DFA Entangling all the enemies round after round is pretty party friendly.

DFA is a pseudocaster. I get that you prefer the flavor of it over the dragon shaman, but that really has nothing to do with the merits and demerits of the dragon shaman class other than that you think the dragon breath should be the sole focus of the class.

[Troacctid]

I like the "How I got this scar" stories for the fighter. "Yeah, turns out this girl I was seeing was actually a werewolf."

[pabelfly]

I get why the Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman get compared so often, since they seem to be in the same niche of "dragon, but a playable class". However, I think it more apt to compare Dragon Shaman to Marshall, since both are classes with auras that affect all allies around them.

[DrMartin]

PB II includes design work from Brunner and Schwalb, which then went on to design Spellbound Kingdoms and Shadow of the demon Lord respectively, and although we cannot know for sure what each of those authors contributed to this book, I can see some of ideas from those games in some kind of proto-form being implemented here.

The four new classes in the PB II remind me a lot of the compact and thematic classes (which are called Paths) from shadow of the demon lord - each with a strong concept and a core mechanic. The concept for the knight is not just a Fighter that Fights, has its own specific role within the "dudes that fight" design space. Same for the Beguiler being a specific implementation of the "dude that casts". Other material in this book like the Heritage Feats for sorcerers or the Starting Packages suggestion for existing classes also go in this directions, trying to provide thematically cohesive bundles of features.

In a similar way, Tactical Feats remind me of the cool, flowchart based combat styles in spellbound kingdoms. The implementation in dnd is not very good - a combination of lackluster benefits, poor synergy with better options, requirements that means they don't come online early enough in a character's career to matter, and in general suffer from being an add-on tacked on the combat and feat system rather than being the base of the combat system itself. Which they are in spellbound kingdoms, and there combat styles really shine.

And one could say pretty much exactly the same thing for the Affiliations mechanics - cool concept, but in dnd it just feels "tacked on" as a floppy accessory, rather than fitting neatly into the game core. And again, another thing that Brunner implemented in a more cohesive way in Spellbound kingdoms.

[AMFV]

You don't have to just compare it to other medium BAB classes. It's quite a bit more interesting than a fighter and quite as capable or more so in several ways.

That's not the case. Fighters have several tricks. Tripping, Charging, Dungeoncrasher. And fighter is also a problem in this area. Even the "Fighter who gets 9th level spells" as I recall, although I don't remember the specific mechanics.

When it says previous round it is talking about the round that you use the breath. Technically, if you're trying to make a RAW argument the one you should be making is that any round after the second does no damage because the text never says that they can do damage. Then again, that would literally defeat the purpose of being able to stack the effect so it's a loss either way.

Hold up, in WHAT ****ING WORLD DOES PREVIOUS ROUND NOT MEAN THE ROUND BEFORE. You are completely wrong here. If it meant "the first round" it would say that.

Edit: It can do damage for every round after it did damage. The breath weapon did damage on the second round just half. Any round until it does 1 damage.

[Chronos]

And even aside from fighters having more ways to use their BAB, they also have more of it. Even if both the fighter and the dragon shaman are just attacking, fighters are still better at it, by virtue of having more attack bonus. And also better weapon proficiencies, better armor so they can survive being in the front line, and a bunch of feats that all support fighting with a weapon.

A fighter fights with a weapon because that's what he's good at. A dragon shaman fights with a weapon because he's got nothing better to do.

But yeah, the dragon shaman is at least significantly better than the marshal, since they at least get something other than their auras.

[Wildstag]

I like the "How I got this scar" stories for the fighter. "Yeah, turns out this girl I was seeing was actually a werewolf."

Including a Noodle Incident in the list was a nice touch.