Warlock + Anima Mage + Astaroth interaction (figuring out a build)

[ChudoJogurt]

A vestige of ASTAROTH, DIABOLUS OF BAATOR, when bound by a Binder grants, among other things an ability

Your spells, spell-like abilities, and magic item abilities with the fire descriptor deal half fire damage and half vile damage. You can cast fireball, as per the spell, three times per day (caster level equals your effective binder level).

An Anima Mage has the ability of

Exploit Vestige (Su): At 2nd level, you learn how to use a bound vestige to boost your arcane spellcasting. With this ability, you can choose to forego gaining one of the vestige's granted abilities in order to gain one additional arcane spell slot per day of any level up to the highest you can cast. Thus, if you bind the vestige Dantalion (see page 28), you could give up the read thoughts ability he grants you in exchange for a bonus spell slot that day.

1.
Assuming a character has entered the Anima Mage via the Precocious Apprentice trick, and now is Wiz 1/Binder 3/Anima Mage 2, with Improved Binder trick he can Bind Astaroth.
Can he gain 3rd level spell slots via Exploit Vestige?
On one hand he "can cast fireball, as per the spell"
On the other hand, that is not actually a spell, it's a Su ability that grants him the ability to cast fireballs. It's also the question of timing -- does he have the ability to cast fireballs when choosing to use Exploit Vestige or do those things happen somehow concurrently?

2.
Let's say it's instead a somewhat cheesed abomination of Warlock 2 (Precocious Apprentice)/Binder 1 (Improved Binding)/Anima Mage 4
They summon Astaroth, surrendering one of his abilities to gain a spell slot.
Now they have either a 2nd level slot and 3rd level spell slot, or two 2nd level slots, and a single spell they know. What are some cool ideas for the uses of those spell-slots?
Could they use a runestaff? Get new Spells Known somehow?

[Chronos]

Where are you finding these stats for Astaroth? What I'm seeing is bardic knowledge, a poison breath weapon, a bonus to social skills, crafting, and Suggestion. Nothing in there about fire at all.

[Tzardok]

Where are you finding these stats for Astaroth? What I'm seeing is bardic knowledge, a poison breath weapon, a bonus to social skills, crafting, and Suggestion. Nothing in there about fire at all.

There are two vestiges called Astaroth: Astaroth, the Unjustly Fallen from the web enhancement, and Astaroth Diabolus from the Dragon Magazine #357.

A vestige of ASTAROTH, DIABOLUS OF BAATOR, when bound by a Binder grants, among other things an ability

An Anima Mage has the ability of


1.
Assuming a character has entered the Anima Mage via the Precocious Apprentice trick, and now is Wiz 1/Binder 3/Anima Mage 2, with Improved Binder trick he can Bind Astaroth.
Can he gain 3rd level spell slots via Exploit Vestige?
On one hand he "can cast fireball, as per the spell"
On the other hand, that is not actually a spell, it's a Su ability that grants him the ability to cast fireballs. It's also the question of timing -- does he have the ability to cast fireballs when choosing to use Exploit Vestige or do those things happen somehow concurrently?

It's not a spell, it doesn't count.

[Jowgen]

I think it falls under DM discretion whether the Fireball ability you gain is a Spell, Spell-like, or Supernatural; as it does not follow the standard 1/5 round rule for Supernatural Vestige abilities.

There are advantages to either reading. Spell opens up metagamic and such (note: certain metamagics do work for Spell-likes, obscure rule in Comp Arcane). Supernatural lets you ignore spell resistance and not provoke AoOs. Etc.

Regarldess, I don't think it actually matter for what you want to do.

The text as written makes it clear that using of your Fireball ability constitutes "casting", regardless of whether it's actually a spell or not. And from the "as the fireball spell" it does follow that the level of the ability is 3rd.

So I do actually agree that you qualify for "ability to cast 3rd level spells". It's not completely iron clad, even when considering all the obscure minutea of the Comp Arcane rules, but I think it's a pretty solid RAW argument.

The part where you might fall down is that Anima Mages ability states "spell slot per day of any level up to the highest you can cast".

If it's read as to the highest level "spell" you can cast then you're fine, but if mean highest level "spell slot" you can cast from, then you are SoL as Astaroth doesn't grant you spell slots, only the ability to "cast" a spell.


Personally, I think that if you are able to get away with Precocious Apprentice Shenanigans as to qualify for things, you should have precedent to let it work; i.e. if you're getting extra cheese, stuffed crust should be fair game as well.

Plus Binder needs all the help it can get to be worth playing.

[Troacctid]

I think it falls under DM discretion whether the Fireball ability you gain is a Spell, Spell-like, or Supernatural; as it does not follow the standard 1/5 round rule for Supernatural Vestige abilities.

All powers granted by vestiges are supernatural unless otherwise noted, as per ToM p19.

[Jowgen]

All powers granted by vestiges are supernatural unless otherwise noted, as per ToM p19.

I would posit that the use of the word "cast" in the context of the 3/day limit could be read as a specific over-riding that general, but I have not been gone from these boards so long as to forget that it's generally best to treat the word of Troacctid as gospel when it comes to these weird sorta classes.

[Chronos]

Yeah, the "vestige abilities are supernatural" applies to all vestige abilities, not just the 5-round ones, and explicitly includes ones that mimic spells. Even to ones that look extraordinary and are always on, like Sneak Attack. Having a vestige ability usable a certain number of times per day is unusual, but also not unprecedented: See also Tenebrous's Flicker.

While it's always possible for something to make a specific exception, that general rule is broad enough that I'd say that it applies unless something very explicitly says that it doesn't (i.e., "This ability is a spell, not a supernatural ability", not just "cast").

[ChudoJogurt]

The part where you might fall down is that Anima Mages ability states "spell slot per day of any level up to the highest you can cast".

If it's read as to the highest level "spell" you can cast then you're fine, but if mean highest level "spell slot" you can cast from, then you are SoL as Astaroth doesn't grant you spell slots, only the ability to "cast" a spell.

One casts spells, not spell slots, so I think that works out.