What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Schwann145]

I think by far the biggest issue of the level 9 feature is that I literally can't conceive of myself ever using it in a real campaign. It's unbelievably antisocial.

I mean, you're certainly not wrong about that.
Assassin is a terrible subclass, but it's not because it's abilities aren't great at what they do. It's because the subclass is terrible at being part of a group.
It's an outstanding subclass for an NPC, or a single-player in a low-fantasy game... But who plays like that?

[Psyren]

If you make a Disguise, you have to make an ability check. If you have proficiency in the Disguise Kit, you can add your proficiency to the ability check. The Deception skill does not let you add your proficiency bonus to a check when you make a disguise. I don't know where you are getting that from.

Goalposts: I thought we were trying to replicate "create a believable false identity" not merely "make a disguise."

You need a believable disguise first Psyren.

Where in the Assassin ability does it say that has to be the order of operations? Or even that a disguise is needed?

I could create a false identity with just Deception and Forgery depending on the persona I created. If the persona I invent is Prince Akeem of Zamunda, and my forged identification papers are my picture wearing a set of noble's clothing - why would I need a disguise at all?

You're conflating a simple infiltration (breaking and entering) with assuming a persona that is so well-supported people don't question its authenticity. The two are not the same thing.

I never said they were. But tell me - if they don't question your rogue because you're an Assassin and didn't need to make a check, but they question my Rogue and come up short because they can't beat my checks, then I have one question: what's the hornswoggling difference at the end of the day? Either way, both rogues succeed.

(I mean, besides mine having an actual 9th-level feature that doesn't suck after the infiltration session is over, that is.)

An assassin is going to do exactly what Batman does in this exact same scenario in actual Gotham City; assume the guise of someone in that circle and gather information that way. Batman uses the identity of Matches Malone. It's a little different, as Malone was a real criminal already that died, and no one knew except Batman, so he takes the identity and uses it to infiltrate the criminal underworld whenever he wants. The assassin would do the same thing, except they have to invent up a new persona, but they also get the background to make it like a real life person that people believe exists.

As you yourself noted, what Batman does with Matches is different. The Assassin can’t establish an identity that belongs to someone else; they need to make somebody up who seems plausible. And yes, they'll go unquestioned provided they don't screw up by picking an existing person. But being questioned is not an automatic failure.

[strangebloke]

I mean, you're certainly not wrong about that.
Assassin is a terrible subclass, but it's not because it's abilities aren't great at what they do. It's because the subclass is terrible at being part of a group.
It's an outstanding subclass for an NPC, or a single-player in a low-fantasy game... But who plays like that?

Yeah exactly. When I run DND the goal is to have the whole party engaged, locked in, the whole time.

Everyone's sat through a session where a player goes on a little sidequest. It isn't fun.

[Dr.Samurai]

The Background examples are Apples and Oranges. 5e has a number of abilities that enhance one's ability to impersonate and/or pretend to be someone you are not, beyond the Assassin's abilities.

The Actor Feat allows the following:

• You have an advantage on Charisma (Deception) and Charisma (Performance) checks when trying to pass yourself off as a different person.
  
• You can mimic the speech of another person or the sounds made by other creatures. You must have heard the person speaking, or heard the creature make the sound, for at least 1 minute. A successful Wisdom (Insight) check contested by your Charisma (Deception) check allows a listener to determine that the effect is faked.

Infiltration Expertise only allows you to unfailingly make a cover I.D. An Assassin has hookups for dead people's Social Security numbers, other Rogues have to make Ability checks or potentially pay more than 25 gold pieces. As everyone has agreed in this thread, Rogues, are pretty good at making checks they have invested in.

The Assassin's Imposter ability, I will point out is worse than the mimicry the Actor feat enables.
The Assassin's Infiltration Expertise ability at 9th level, and Imposter ability at 13th level, are only marginally better than the Charlatan Background's fake I.D., and the Imposter ability is worse than the Actor Feat.

A Kenku PC can instantly mimic any sound, and has Advantage on forging anything, including documents.

The Assassins subclasses middle level abilities have had no niche protection, and have been stepped on by other abilities since day one of 5e's release.

I don't find these other abilities to be the same as the Assassin's. I think even Impostor is getting short-changed in this conversation.

These other features are giving you Advantage because they say you can mimic people well or sounds that you've heard.

Impostor is, once again, saying that you do it so well no one is the wiser unless they are wary for some reason. Then you have that Advantage that someone that spent a feat on Actor has.

I believe Impostor is meant to be the upgrade to Infiltration Expertise. IE lets you unfailingly dupe people with a false identity, but notably you can't establish an identity for someone that already exists because... well they already exist and have an identity that is established.

Impostor then is the next step in your disguise abilities... suppose you've infiltrated a cult as a sage using Infiltration Expertise. You get close to the high priest and leader of the cult, close enough to study his speech, mannerisms, and writings. At some point, you can now take him out and masquerade as the high priest. And no one is the wiser unless they have a reason to be wary. So now you go to the ritual and instead of summoning the evil deity you scuttle the altar, free the sacrifice, and steal the evil gem that was going to make it all possible.

Someone with the Actor feat doesn't have this type of auto-success built in.

I think by far the biggest issue of the level 9 feature is that I literally can't conceive of myself ever using it in a real campaign. It's unbelievably antisocial.

You spend seven days building this identity. Okay, so we're already assuming a huge break in downtime for this ability to even be usable. Okay, then I get to have my second identity. I can use this to go, almost certainly by myself, into some location and do something. Steal some item, read some document, etc.

Okay. Let's assume for the sake of argument that this was the most efficient way to accomplish the task at hand. (it'd be pretty unusual if it was, tbh, but let's assume.)

What are the other players at the table doing? The entire point is a deep cover, right? Well to get advantage out of a deep cover, you have to spend a LONG TIME in cover. This sounds like most of a session where I'm just having a private talk with the DM about rooms I'm exploring and things I'm reading and traps I'm setting up. I'm sure if you really sit and think you can come up with a way for this ability to be useful in a non-antisocial way, but overall I'd just rather not.

It's like. Imagine if there was a character ability that let you gain 50 GP if you spent a minute dancing at the site of a victory. It'd be good! But oh my lord would it be annoying to play with the victory dancer guy.

Yeah, this is a wholly different issue. Though there's plenty to do during downtime, in the DMG and Xanathar's, it's just a matter of your game having downtime or not. Players can be doing other things like seeking out magic items, making money, or contacts, or crafting. This at least covers making the identities.

But yeah full blown infiltration would be a major lag at an actual table session.

Goalposts: I thought we were trying to replicate "create a believable false identity" not merely "make a disguise."

The disguise is part of the identity. We're trying to replicate the level 9 feature that you and others are claiming can be done at level 1 by anyone with Deception and Disguise Kit proficiency.

Where in the Assassin ability does it say that has to be the order of operations? Or even that a disguise is needed?

Right in the feature we're discussing; "... if you adopt the new identity as a disguise..."

It's not a coincidence that the subclass grants you proficiency in the Disguise Kit you know.

I could create a false identity with just Deception and Forgery depending on the persona I created.

Sure, if that's how the DM handles false identities. If the DM then makes that identity nearly flawless, and doesn't call for contested checks, I'd say that's rather a generous DM but good for you for playing at a table like that. What other stuff does the DM let you auto-succeed at just because you think you should be able to?

I never said they were. But tell me - if they don't question your rogue because you're an Assassin and didn't need to make a check, but they question my Rogue and come up short because they can't beat my checks, then I have one question: what's the hornswoggling difference at the end of the day? Either way, both rogues succeed.

What the non-assassin can accomplish and the assassin can accomplish are different, because the assassin's feature is straight up superior to what the non-assassin is trying to do. I don't know how else to explain it to you. The assassin doesn't get questioned, you do.

Like... this isn't about making a false identity. This is about making a nearly flawless identity, one which just automatically works but gives the DM an out if the players try anything too crazy.

As you yourself noted, what Batman does with Matches is different. The Assassin can’t establish an identity that belongs to someone else; they need to make somebody up who seems plausible.

Psyren... its the end use that is the same. I pointed out it's a bit different, but the end result is similar enough for the comparison. Batman is using Impostor for Matches Malone.

And yes, they'll go unquestioned provided they don't screw up by picking an existing person.

How do you see this happening in game exactly?

But being questioned is not an automatic failure.

No, someone spotting your DC 16 forgeries is an automatic failure lol.

[Blatant Beast]

I think by far the biggest issue of the level 9 feature is that I literally can't conceive of myself ever using it in a real campaign. It's unbelievably antisocial.

That was not my experience as a DM. The PC Assassin in a Temple of Elemental Evil + Descent into Avernus style game, used the ability once to help the entire party infiltrate The Elemental Fire cult that was in league with Zariel.

My games do include downtime activities, when appropriate. The PC's knew the location of the secret base, and the Assassin PC basically walked up and said something to the effect of " Hi, I'm Bob from Evil Fire Cult Lodge 49, and I brought this letter from Lodge 49's evil fire cult leader....can me and my friends come in?"

and it worked. Up until a point.

"Thereafter, if you adopt the new identity as a disguise, other creatures believe you to be that person until given an obvious reason not to." is what the ability states.

So if the Assassin is just designed as a killing machine, with nothing devoted to Deception, the disguise will only take you so far. In Roleplaying the above scene, the group was welcomed by the Evil Fire Cult, and the PC Assassin, as a sign of great honor was asked to lead that evenings fire services.

(luckily the PC had Expertise in Deception)

The second time the PC used the ability, the PC Assassin's player had missed a few sessions. The PCs had become separated from each other, in a burning prime material city, trapped in hell, and then had been reunited, sans the Assassin.

More than two weeks, in game had passed. The Assassin had in that time developed a false identity as a Succubus in Zariel's Army. The idea is super clever. The problem, was the PC Assassin did not speak Abyssal, nor Infernal, and had no Telepathy at all.

The False ID's power is really cool. The problem is, the niche of the power's usefulness is somewhat small. Infiltration Expertise should also either grant Expertise with the Disguise Kit, or at least Advantage on Ability Checks using a Disguise Kit. Those are solid, generally applicable boosts, in addition to flimsy False IDs.

The Assassin also receives proficiency in the Poisoner's Kit, seems like the subclass could have had a benefit designed around being adroit with poisons.

[Witty Username]

I mean, when it takes about a month for your new ship to be built, you might as well try to do something, right?

At least at my table downtime hasn't been that hard to come across, I am a more sandbox style DM so downtime is how much time and money players are willing to spend, and in the games I am a player in we have had a couple projects that just took an extended period of time, the game that is currently active we are in a bit of a bind right now but before that we all had day jobs in a city and obligations to fulfill, downtime was part of the draw during that time.

[Psyren]

The disguise is part of the identity. We're trying to replicate the level 9 feature that you and others are claiming can be done at level 1 by anyone with Deception and Disguise Kit proficiency.
...
Right in the feature we're discussing; "... if you adopt the new identity as a disguise..."

1) Where did I say anything about level 1?
2) So for automatic belief (until obvious reason failure), the Assassin needs to adopt it as a disguise; nobody who doesn't care about not rolling needs to.

Sure, if that's how the DM handles false identities. If the DM then makes that identity nearly flawless, and doesn't call for contested checks,

Why would I be against contested checks? I have Expertise, Reliable Talent, and permanent Advantage, while the NPCs I'm infiltrating don't. Contest away, they're going to lose.

What the non-assassin can accomplish and the assassin can accomplish are different, because the assassin's feature is straight up superior to what the non-assassin is trying to do. I don't know how else to explain it to you. The assassin doesn't get questioned, you do.

It's not superior. If you don't need to roll, and I do but will never fail anyway, there's no superiority. Just the illusion that you're using to salve your feelings about your bad feature.

[Kane0]

That was not my experience as a DM. The PC Assassin in a Temple of Elemental Evil + Descent into Avernus style game, used the ability once to help the entire party infiltrate The Elemental Fire cult that was in league with Zariel.

I would kill for that sort of downtime in my PotA game. My artificer can't even get some time to work on making some armor!

The Assassin also receives proficiency in the Poisoner's Kit, seems like the subclass could have had a benefit designed around being adroit with poisons.

As a bandaid solution you could just give them the Actor feat at 9th and Poisoner at 13th in addition to Infiltration/Impostor.

[Dr.Samurai]

1) Where did I say anything about level 1?
2) So for automatic belief (until obvious reason failure), the Assassin needs to adopt it as a disguise; nobody who doesn't care about not rolling needs to.

Says you. Earlier you accused me of houseruling... here you are assuming what it takes to adopt a false identity. The rules don't tell us what it takes to create a false persona with an established history, profession, and background, to such a degree that no one questions it. (Not to mention now you are simultaneously claiming that you don't have to wear a disguise so you can avoid the ability check to make one, AND ALSO you have perma-Advantage on Deception checks due to Xanathar's suggestions when wearing a disguise. As I said earlier and continues to be born out, the commentary here is incoherent. People just say contrary things spread out through various posts to dunk on martials.)

YOU are assuming it's a trivial thing and then turning around and complaining that the assassin doesn't have a 9th level feature. Like... that's a Psyren problem that Psyren is creating. People are like "what were the devs thinking???" meanwhile no one can demonstrate how you're supposed to establish a full blown living and unquestioned identity without Infiltration Expertise. Oh... something something Kenku... something something Background feature...

Why would I be against contested checks?

Because it can easily lead to your disguise and forgery being spotted as fake. That's why you're arguing that you don't even need to wear a disguise now, so you don't have to make a check that lacks Advantage and Expertise.

I have Expertise, Reliable Talent, and permanent Advantage, while the NPCs I'm infiltrating don't. Contest away, they're going to lose.

Typical online "optimizer" attitude; I know the Monster Manual, I have a big number, I can do anything, no DM needed to chime in.

The Xanathar suggestion is not always on Advantage just because you're wearing a disguise. Reliable Talent is 2 levels away, stop using it as a crutch to support your claim that anyone can do Infiltration Expertise. So you have Expertise in Deception, and sometimes Advantage, depending on if the DM feels the disguise (your Schrodinger's Disguise that you are and are not wearing at the same time) can help make the lie more convincing.

It's not superior. If you don't need to roll, and I do but will never fail anyway, there's no superiority. Just the illusion that you're using to salve your feelings about your bad feature.

Lol... I've entered the danger zone. You're making personal attacks, I have a sense now that if I continue thrashing your argument I'm going to get a warning or infraction soon so... *tips hat* It's been a pleasure exposing your bad take on the assassin subclass.

I would kill for that sort of downtime in my PotA game. My artificer can't even get some time to work on making some armor!

It's perfectly possible that some games can make better use of features than others. So I don't get the kind of downtime that Blatant Beast and Witty Username have mentioned they have in their games, and like you I'd kill for some of that downtime lol.

It's part of the reason I think martials should get more features. If you only make features that will come up all the time, you lose out on out of combat features and powerful narrative features. So give both

[Skrum]

I don't understand the dilemma here. Why can't the warlock with +9 Deception and Mask of Many Faces dupe someone into giving them information? It's just a different way to do it. I'm not sure what's the confusion here. The warlock is not creating a whole new persona that is affiliated somehow with this organization and can waltz in. The warlock is likely using Mask of Many Faces to make themselves look like someone else in the organization, and then their Deception is to pose as that person. People that interact with the illusion will figure it out, and the warlock will need to make checks to keep the ruse going so long as they haven't discovered the illusion.

An assassin is going to do exactly what Batman does in this exact same scenario in actual Gotham City; assume the guise of someone in that circle and gather information that way. Batman uses the identity of Matches Malone. It's a little different, as Malone was a real criminal already that died, and no one knew except Batman, so he takes the identity and uses it to infiltrate the criminal underworld whenever he wants. The assassin would do the same thing, except they have to invent up a new persona, but they also get the background to make it like a real life person that people believe exists.

The dilemma is What Is This Ability Actually Giving You. If the players want to infiltrate an organization via disguise, I'm not going to parse the every minutiae of exactly what they're using. At the very low end, if they don't even have proficiency in Deception, well they're extremely unlikely to succeed and I'd make that clear. But if one character has disguise self, and one is a changeling or a kenku, and at least one of them had a decent Deception check (and the barb and the ranger can keep their mouths shut to be silent bodyguards), like I'm just going to roll with that. If they have something really applicable, like Silver Tongue, the Actor feat, or just a monster Deception check, I don't see how in practice Infiltration Expertise is really getting you anything additional.

As the DM, I'm not going to carefully weigh every single possible way this plan could be carried out and decide the exact outcome if they used ability Y instead of X, thus preserving some outcome that only Infiltration Expertise could achieve. Infiltration Expertise is so specific, and skill uses are so NON-specific, whatever it's doing is just gonna get lost in the noise. It's a plot point. It's not a class ability.

[Dr.Samurai]

The dilemma is What Is This Ability Actually Giving You.

The answer is nothing if you have given it all away already because someone can cast Disguise Self and has a good Deception modifier. But that's not a problem with the feature.

If the players want to infiltrate an organization via disguise, I'm not going to parse the every minutiae of exactly what they're using.

You're creating a whole new identity. And with the wealth that player characters have, I'm thinking you can do a lot with that, and probably create your own organizations and webs of intrigue. We're talking about insinuating yourself into places and people's lives, not putting on a uniform just so you can walk through a door.

But if one character has disguise self, and one is a changeling or a kenku, and at least one of them had a decent Deception check (and the barb and the ranger can keep their mouths shut to be silent bodyguards), like I'm just going to roll with that. If they have something really applicable, like Silver Tongue, the Actor feat, or just a monster Deception check, I don't see how in practice Infiltration Expertise is really getting you anything additional.

So the feature is equal to a race selection, a spell, a feat, and a different class feature, and it simultaneously doesn't do anything? I can only shrug and say okay.

But again, it sounds like you're achieving an infiltration in the short term, which seems different to me to what Infiltration Expertise can do in the long term.

As the DM, I'm not going to carefully weigh every single possible way this plan could be carried out and decide the exact outcome if they used ability Y instead of X, thus preserving some outcome that only Infiltration Expertise could achieve.

I don't think up until this thread people have really considered what Infiltration Expertise can achieve, and think that it's just the equivalent of a really good disguise check. So if that's how people play it, then I can understand the opinions on it.

Infiltration Expertise is so specific, and skill uses are so NON-specific, whatever it's doing is just gonna get lost in the noise. It's a plot point. It's not a class ability.

You can base an entire campaign around this ability. And skills are non-specific until they aren't. As a DM, you have to adjudicate. If you don't want to, that's fine, but don't project that onto the class feature.

[Skrum]

So the feature is equal to a race selection, a spell, a feat, and a different class feature, and it simultaneously doesn't do anything? I can only shrug and say okay.

I'm naming random junk that's available at level 1-3. This is a level 9 feature.

But again, it sounds like you're achieving an infiltration in the short term, which seems different to me to what Infiltration Expertise can do in the long term.

This is extraordinarily specific and non-frequent, and exactly why I called it out as a bad class feature before. Class features should come up frequently. This is the opposite of that.

I don't think up until this thread people have really considered what Infiltration Expertise can achieve, and think that it's just the equivalent of a really good disguise check. So if that's how people play it, then I can understand the opinions on it.

If you were the DM, how much time would you dedicate to making this one particular feature feel interesting and usable? What wouldn't you allow the players to do if they didn't have this particular feature?

As a DM, you have to adjudicate. If you don't want to, that's fine, but don't project that onto the class feature.

Yes, DM's have to adjudicate all the time, which is precisely the problem. If there were better rules about what exactly skill checks did, there wouldn't be this massive bleed between Deception, Disguise Kits, and whatever Infiltration Expertise is supposed to be.

This ability is great for an NPC; a little explanation for how they're always in the know, always showing up at the most (in)convenient of times. But for a player?? I'm just massively skeptical that a DM would actually spend the time and brainpower to make this feel special (i.e., functionally different than all of the aforementioned abilities, skills, and options that players would try to use).

[Theodoxus]

IE lets you play Silk from the Belgariad/Mallorean series by Eddings. Though arguably, Silk had a LOT of personas he used, not just one.

I would also contend that Assassin is one of the most selfish archetypes, in both senses of the word. They want to go first at the start of combat to get the drop on their foe, to the point where they'll ignore the party plan. And none of their subclass abilities are party facing. At best, you might end up with something like Blatant Beast describes, where the assassin is using their infiltration ability to play party leader and get the party into a base or something; but when used 'correctly', the ability is really about being part of an organization long term, where you might be able to get other party members hired A-Team style, but that really depends on the party make up more than the campaign, IMO. A Devotion Paladin will more than likely have a hard time getting accepted and being part of team evil. An Archfey Warlock will be sad trying to infiltrate Team TreeKiller to help the assassin 'take them out from the inside.'

In regards to advantage on checks to replicate IE with other Rogue archetypes, it reminds me of a time where a Rogue with a Cloak of the Elvenkind was trying to stealth up the stairs of a ziggurat to bypass a line of archers. Rolled two nat 1s and got peppered. It happens, and it doesn't even need to be nat 1s. Any two low rolls can happen and now you're either killed, or captured, or fighting a group you didn't want to (for whatever reason, otherwise why go the infiltration route?)

The funny thing to me, is all the various ways to play 'Spy' is grappling with the a playstyle 5E isn't built for. It runs smack dab into the Exploration and Social pillars with zero support for PCs that aren't built for it, very little support in the way of how to actually run intrigue at the DM level (especially when your players are playing classes that go against type). This is Dungeons and Dragons, not Bond (James) and Powers (Austin). As such, I'll throw my hat in the ring for those desiring a complete rebuild of the classes that actually fit the theme of game, rather than trying to shoehorn the other classes into a style the game doesn't support well.

[Psyren]

Says you. Earlier you accused me of houseruling... here you are assuming what it takes to adopt a false identity. The rules don't tell us what it takes to create a false persona with an established history, profession, and background, to such a degree that no one questions it. (Not to mention now you are simultaneously claiming that you don't have to wear a disguise so you can avoid the ability check to make one, AND ALSO you have perma-Advantage on Deception checks due to Xanathar's suggestions when wearing a disguise. As I said earlier and continues to be born out, the commentary here is incoherent. People just say contrary things spread out through various posts to dunk on martials.)
...
Because it can easily lead to your disguise and forgery being spotted as fake. That's why you're arguing that you don't even need to wear a disguise now, so you don't have to make a check that lacks Advantage and Expertise.

1) I still have perma-advantage because of the Forger's Kit, which I explicitly included in my example. That's a tool too, PHB 154/XGtE 81.

2) You're right, the rules don't tell us what it takes to create a false persona. Your houserule came into play by forcing everyone who is not an Assassin to also need 7 days of prep time ("or more") as well as 25gp ("or more") in order to protect the bad subclass's bad niche.

YOU are assuming it's a trivial thing and then turning around and complaining that the assassin doesn't have a 9th level feature. Like... that's a Psyren problem that Psyren is creating.

You get irritated whenever I bring up 2024, but then you say obviously wrong things like "this is a Psyren problem" like they didn't go out and poll the entire playerbase on the PHB subclasses and decide what features needed changing based on those results. 2014 Infiltration Expertise is on the chopping block because most players scored it badly. You really think they only asked me?

Typical online "optimizer" attitude; I know the Monster Manual, I have a big number, I can do anything, no DM needed to chime in.

So players at your tables aren't allowed to know if they've built their character to be good at something? What is the point of those Rogue features then, in your view?

Lol... I've entered the danger zone. You're making personal attacks, I have a sense now that if I continue thrashing your argument I'm going to get a warning or infraction soon so... *tips hat* It's been a pleasure exposing your bad take on the assassin subclass.

Please, calling a subclass feature bad is not a personal attack. Give me a break.

This is extraordinarily specific and non-frequent, and exactly why I called it out as a bad class feature before. Class features should come up frequently. This is the opposite of that.

I wouldn't even mind if it was situational, so long as it wasn't the only thing Assassins got at that level. Ribbons are fine - nobody complains about Thieves' Cant at level 2 even if their DM never uses it, because Rogues also get Cunning Action (and now, WM) at that level as the features that actually come up routinely in play.

[Pooky the Imp]

I think by far the biggest issue of the level 9 feature is that I literally can't conceive of myself ever using it in a real campaign. It's unbelievably antisocial.

I think a big part of the issue is that it comes so late (which is also an issue with Rogue subclasses in general).

If it was a Lv3 feature then you could potentially start a campaign with a few false identities ready to go (the DM might have to do a bit of handwaving with regard to the cost, but I'm sure most would allow it).

However, at Lv9, you're probably going to get it by levelling up - so you can't assume any pre-campaign time spent making the false identities.


Aside, there's also the strange anti-synergy between Infiltration Expertise and Imposter.

Imposter lets you mimic the speech, writing etc. of specific individuals. Okay, great. Now you just ned to use Infiltration Expertise to disguise yourself as that person and... oh, wait, you're explicitly forbidden from actually impersonating someone with it.

I mean, I guess you can just use them independently. It just seems very strange to make them completely incompatible with one another.

If you want a giggle, I suppose you could impersonate Timothy the Merchant while disguising yourself as Frederick the Nobleman, in the hope that anyone who sees through your nobleman disguise will think that Timothy is up to no good.

[Keltest]

I think a big part of the issue is that it comes so late (which is also an issue with Rogue subclasses in general).

If it was a Lv3 feature then you could potentially start a campaign with a few false identities ready to go (the DM might have to do a bit of handwaving with regard to the cost, but I'm sure most would allow it).

However, at Lv9, you're probably going to get it by levelling up - so you can't assume any pre-campaign time spent making the false identities.


Aside, there's also the strange anti-synergy between Infiltration Expertise and Imposter.

Imposter lets you mimic the speech, writing etc. of specific individuals. Okay, great. Now you just ned to use Infiltration Expertise to disguise yourself as that person and... oh, wait, you're explicitly forbidden from actually impersonating someone with it.

I mean, I guess you can just use them independently. It just seems very strange to make them completely incompatible with one another.

If you want a giggle, I suppose you could impersonate Timothy the Merchant while disguising yourself as Frederick the Nobleman, in the hope that anyone who sees through your nobleman disguise will think that Timothy is up to no good.

The idea is that you disguise yourself as Frederick the Nobleman, get in, use his authority to request an audience with the King, kill him, then leave and take off your disguise to assume your identity as Timothy the Merchant. All the witnesses see Frederick as having killed the King, and Timothy is an upstanding member of the community who is quite obviously not Frederick.

[Blatant Beast]

I would kill for that sort of downtime in my PotA game. My artificer can't even get some time to work on making some armor!

Yeah, this demonstrates that an ability that takes SEVEN DAYS!, to resolve is just not a good fit for some types of games. Even worse, is you cannot impersonate a real person, with Infiltration Expertise.

The idea of Face Dancers have been around since Frank Herbert wrote Dune in the 1960's.

The Dev's could have leaned into the idea that Assassins are Face Dancers. Let the Assassin mold their features over the course of an hour, (the process is magical, but the results are not...similar to the wording of an Artificer's Right Tool for the Job ability), and allow the Assassin to pass cursory mental inspections such as Detect Thought's surface reading, or Telepathic Communication. Then throw in Expertise with a Disguise Kit.....problem solved. :)

The answer is nothing if you have given it all away already because someone can cast Disguise Self and has a good Deception modifier. But that's not a problem with the feature.

Artificer's have Tool Expertise starting at 6th level. The Forgery and Disguise Kits have been in the game since 5e's publication. Forging Documents and Pretending to be someone else, seems like a natural set of actions for a player to ask to do with those particular Tool Kits.

This goes back to a point that Psyren made earlier. Infiltration Expertise, as written, does a poor job of effectively delineating a suite of subclass only powers. If your response is to make other PCs attempts to use Disguises and Impersonations, nearly impossible to succeed in order to preserve that niche solely for Infiltration Expertise, you have basically beggared the game for a poorly conceived ability.

A Bard, could be a Thespian. If Actors can not act, out of deference to Infiltration Expertise, then in my judgement, one has probably taken niche protection to the extreme.

[Keltest]

A Bard, could be a Thespian. If Actors can not act, out of deference to Infiltration Expertise, then in my judgement, one has probably taken niche protection to the extreme.

Infiltration Expertise isn't "acting", its creating an identity. You don't even have to behave any differently than you normally would (indeed, being normal is sort of the point of the ability). You aren't impersonating anyone, you aren't playing a bit, and you aren't just lying about your name.

[strangebloke]

That was not my experience as a DM. The PC Assassin in a Temple of Elemental Evil + Descent into Avernus style game, used the ability once to help the entire party infiltrate The Elemental Fire cult that was in league with Zariel.

Your experience is your experience and I can't argue with it but in my 1000s of hours of playing DND at a wide variety of tables, I have literally never seen a situation where this kind of thing would be desirable from a "fun for the group" perspective.

And note that this is leaving aside the question of whether its actually the best means for infiltration in the first place, something I really don't think is ever going to be true.

EDIT:

The idea is that you disguise yourself as Frederick the Nobleman, get in, use his authority to request an audience with the King, kill him, then leave and take off your disguise to assume your identity as Timothy the Merchant. All the witnesses see Frederick as having killed the King, and Timothy is an upstanding member of the community who is quite obviously not Frederick.

Who is this king that he's allowing "generic fred noble" to get next to him where he doesn't have any guards or protections? Why are we killing this guy, is he and evil king? Again, how is he being so naive if there's so many people out to get him?

Is it really that hard to do something like this with other means, which would allow you to actually impersonate a real person?

What is the rest of the party doing while Assassino is having this little adventure?

These are the essential problems with the ability.

[KorvinStarmast]

Abilities that let you do something new say "you can...". If, on the other hand, an ability is enhancing something you could already do, it will instead say "when you..."

Spoiler: nice summary

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As an example:

The first sentence is giving you the ability to do something you couldn't before (Help as a bonus action), so it uses "you can".

The second is improving something you could already do (Help a creature Attack), so it uses "when you"

Take another example:

Note the use of 'when you' at the start, because casting Mage Hand is something you can already do.

However, all the subsequent abilities are things you weren't previously able to do, and thus they use "you can".

Now look at the Assassin ability:


At no point does it say "when you..."

Thus, unless you are saying that WotC abandoned their writing style for this one ability, we must deduce that this entire ability is something only Assassins can do.

Otherwise it would say something to the effect of "When you use Disguise and/or Forgery kits to craft false personas and documents..." because it would then be something that other rogues can also do, and you merely get a better version of it.

Instead, the ability is clearly written in such a way as to indicate that crafting false personas is something you can only do if you are an Assassin of at least 9th level.

Thanks for the exposition on the writing style, it will be useful to me in the future.

ed a valuable subclass feature taken up with jank? More is not always better. Do you go around taping snickers bars to your steaks?

You ask that like it's a bad thing. Snicker Steak is a regular feature at the Starmast barbecue pit (when the pit master, moi, has had a few more tequilas than is healthy for him. For desert, we offer jalapeno topped banana splits). Just kidding.

I'm not saying that the Background Feature is what allows you to make more (it doesn't). I'm saying that if it tells you that your favorite scheme is "I put on new identities like other people put on clothes" or "I insinuate myself into people's lives to prey on their weakness and secure their fortunes," then it seems reasonable to expect that the game thinks you should be able to do that somehow. Such as, you know, with ability checks.

Let me ask you a question: Would you tell a player of a level 13 charlatan Eloquence Bard with disguise kit proficiency and the favorite scheme "I put on new identities like others put on clothes" that they are unable to attempt to adopt false identities?

For my part, I'll tell you when one shows up in my games. I do use (as a player) the "at will disguise self" invocation on my Celestial Warlock to do a great many things with fake identities. She almost always gets away with it, but a few times she has not. Which kills off that identity. Now and again, the deception or persuasion or performance check fails, or someone sees through the disguise self spell (true seeing, damnit!) and I am foiled. Dimension Door the heck out of there!

Deception lets you pass yourself off in a disguise, but it doesn't create the actual disguise. People can still spot a fake disguise, and the Disguise Kit is what governs the disguise that you make.

Tell me about it! See above. But I still think that the level 9 feature could use a bit of a boost. (Maybe advantage on all performance checks?)

The Assassin's Imposter ability, I will point out is worse than the mimicry the Actor feat enables.

To be fair, PHB assassin was published at a time when feats were an optional part of the game. But I agree with the points you made in that post. Also, Volo's Kenku is a mess.

What are the other players at the table doing? The entire point is a deep cover, right? Well to get advantage out of a deep cover, you have to spend a LONG TIME in cover.

I am in one campaign where we often gets stretches of down time that go from a week to a month. (Phoenix Phyre's campaign). In our Curse of Strahd campaign, we have so far gotten zero.

It's because the subclass is terrible at being part of a group.
It's an outstanding subclass for an NPC, or a single-player in a low-fantasy game... But who plays like that?

It's an OK sub class for a two-person party. I've seen that done. (Levels 3-7 with a Monk, Shadow). Urban setting. Two vHumans. But that's an edge case.

[Psyren]

The idea is that you disguise yourself as Frederick the Nobleman, get in, use his authority to request an audience with the King, kill him, then leave and take off your disguise to assume your identity as Timothy the Merchant. All the witnesses see Frederick as having killed the King, and Timothy is an upstanding member of the community who is quite obviously not Frederick.

That's correct - so long as there is not an actual "Frederick the Nobleman" that the King's seneschal remembers is actually off visiting the nation of Somewhere and therefore couldn't be the guy who's currently trying to get into the King's audience chamber with a dagger up his sleeve, and calls the guards. This is a possible screwup the Assassin PC can make due to not having the entire world's NPC roster at their fingertips like the DM does, that represents a potential failstate of the ability.

Who is this king that he's allowing "generic fred noble" to get next to him where he doesn't have any guards or protections? Why are we killing this guy, is he and evil king? Again, how is he being so naive if there's so many people out to get him?

Is it really that hard to do something like this with other means, which would allow you to actually impersonate a real person?

What is the rest of the party doing while Assassino is having this little adventure?

These are the essential problems with the ability.

Indeed, and there's also the very broad "obvious reason" clause. "Hey, this guy says he's a noble from Eaglestan, but Eaglestan just abolished their nobility and converted to a representative democracy!" "Hey, this guy says he's the crown prince of Anywhereville, but the King of Anywhereville only has daughters!" "Hey, this guy say he's a duke from Remotetopia, but that's on the other side of the globe and teleportation is down, how'd he get here?!"

None of these are insurmountable, but they're enough to pierce the "automatic belief" everything-proof shield and get some rolls going, rolls which the Assassin has no other subclass features to help with.

[Blatant Beast]

Setting aside the philosophical debate of Acting/Identity/Authenticity....an alternate identity's effectiveness only depends upon how long the PC can keep up the ruse. "Captain Mandrake of the Kings Royal Musketeers" is still going to be expected to give passcodes and know the org chart, and have basic cultural knowledge of the people they are infiltrating...and the ability does not automatically grant you that knowledge.

The ability is like the old Castle Wolfenstein computer game, you get to wear a uniform. You have papers, you seem to be whom you say you are....until you do something that makes people suspicious.

Depending upon the circumstances, that can be a short trip indeed.
"I am the Great Wyrm Palcidisax, in the shape of this mortal halfling, I claim my seat on the Draconic Council, but request that all proceedings take place in common, because I am sick of Draconic".....the jig is probably already up.

What about the separate identity makes the ploy immune to discovery, Keltest?
I would be interested in you expanding on your point on Identity.

[Keltest]

Who is this king that he's allowing "generic fred noble" to get next to him where he doesn't have any guards or protections? Why are we killing this guy, is he and evil king? Again, how is he being so naive if there's so many people out to get him?

Is it really that hard to do something like this with other means, which would allow you to actually impersonate a real person?

What is the rest of the party doing while Assassino is having this little adventure?

These are the essential problems with the ability.

Youve misunderstood. Fred the noble is a real person. You imitated him with a disguise kit and your ability to copy his voice and mannerisms. Tim the merchant is your fake identity, which you return to in order to avoid suspicion after youve fled the castle. You're throwing Fred under the bus because youre an assassin who wants to kill a king, and they do things like that sometimes.

And only that last one is a problem.

[Blatant Beast]

Which goes back to the question of what does the rest of the party do?
Frank William Abagnale Jr is fine, but the rest of the party is implicated in the murder?

I love a heist style game, but that is very different from a Dungeon Crawl.

[Keltest]

Which goes back to the question of what does the rest of the party do?
Frank William Abagnale Jr is fine, but the rest of the party is implicated in the murder?

I love a heist style game, but that is very different from a Dungeon Crawl.

Yeah, but thats just as true with a conventional thief rogue going ahead scouting for traps and the like, if maybe with a different timescale. It unfortunately doesn't have an obvious answer.

[Psyren]

Youve misunderstood. Fred the noble is a real person. You imitated him with a disguise kit and your ability to copy his voice and mannerisms. Tim the merchant is your fake identity, which you return to in order to avoid suspicion after youve fled the castle. You're throwing Fred under the bus because youre an assassin who wants to kill a king, and they do things like that sometimes.

And only that last one is a problem.

Fine and dandy but - explain why I need to be an Assassin for this again? The whole point of the plan is the murder, which needs me to be Fred, and which the Assassin doesn't help me with at all beyond disguise kit proficiency (since Fred is real) - something any rogue under the sun can get, and several do even better with.

[Keltest]

Fine and dandy but - explain why I need to be an Assassin for this again? The whole point of the plan is the murder, which needs me to be Fred, and which the Assassin doesn't help me with at all beyond disguise kit proficiency (since Fred is real) - something any rogue under the sun can get, and several do even better with.

I was commenting on the synergy between Imposter and Infiltration Expertise. Assassins are the best at imitating real people, which gives you three identities to use when doing something like this: your short term disguise, your long term alias, and your real identity.

Also, thats a terrible question. Why do you need any class or subclass?

[Witty Username]

I am with assassin's high level features being bad, things that should be within the perveiw of the skill system in a hyperspecific way is how we get terrible.
I don't know why they also needed to nerf assassinate in the 2024 version.
That does get into the theme of the 2024 version, nearly every buff comes at the cost of damage, assassinate does less in exchange for the advantage on initiative that the rogue low key didn't need, cunning strikes are neat but a 1d6 damage cost will mean quite a bit at the level that rogue's already do the worst in comparative damage.
That does get less as levels and SS and GWM have their big bumps to damage removed, but I am not sure the 1d6 damage cost is warranted, the effects are all situational to varying degrees.

[Pooky the Imp]

Infiltration Expertise isn't "acting", its creating an identity. You don't even have to behave any differently than you normally would (indeed, being normal is sort of the point of the ability). You aren't impersonating anyone, you aren't playing a bit, and you aren't just lying about your name.

Maybe I'm just getting the wrong end of the stick, but I'm getting increasingly perplexed as to what this ability is supposed to represent.

It apparently doesn't require any sort of disguise. Nor does it require the ability to act, talk, or behave any differently to how you normally would.

I present - the flawless and varied personas of an expert assassin:

Spoiler

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[Schwann145]

Why would I be against contested checks? I have Expertise, Reliable Talent, and permanent Advantage, while the NPCs I'm infiltrating don't. Contest away, they're going to lose.

It's not superior. If you don't need to roll, and I do but will never fail anyway, there's no superiority. Just the illusion that you're using to salve your feelings about your bad feature.

You're doing that thing, again, where you're just stating that you'll win.
Why?

I was chatting with a buddy about a game he's in right now and one of the group antagonists has a Passive Perception of 31.
How does your non-Assassin infiltrator do against that?