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2024-04-28, 10:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I mean, you're certainly not wrong about that.
Assassin is a terrible subclass, but it's not because it's abilities aren't great at what they do. It's because the subclass is terrible at being part of a group.
It's an outstanding subclass for an NPC, or a single-player in a low-fantasy game... But who plays like that?
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2024-04-28, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Goalposts: I thought we were trying to replicate "create a believable false identity" not merely "make a disguise."
Where in the Assassin ability does it say that has to be the order of operations? Or even that a disguise is needed?
I could create a false identity with just Deception and Forgery depending on the persona I created. If the persona I invent is Prince Akeem of Zamunda, and my forged identification papers are my picture wearing a set of noble's clothing - why would I need a disguise at all?
I never said they were. But tell me - if they don't question your rogue because you're an Assassin and didn't need to make a check, but they question my Rogue and come up short because they can't beat my checks, then I have one question: what's the hornswoggling difference at the end of the day? Either way, both rogues succeed.
(I mean, besides mine having an actual 9th-level feature that doesn't suck after the infiltration session is over, that is.)
As you yourself noted, what Batman does with Matches is different. The Assassin can’t establish an identity that belongs to someone else; they need to make somebody up who seems plausible. And yes, they'll go unquestioned provided they don't screw up by picking an existing person. But being questioned is not an automatic failure.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-04-28, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2024-04-28, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I don't find these other abilities to be the same as the Assassin's. I think even Impostor is getting short-changed in this conversation.
These other features are giving you Advantage because they say you can mimic people well or sounds that you've heard.
Impostor is, once again, saying that you do it so well no one is the wiser unless they are wary for some reason. Then you have that Advantage that someone that spent a feat on Actor has.
I believe Impostor is meant to be the upgrade to Infiltration Expertise. IE lets you unfailingly dupe people with a false identity, but notably you can't establish an identity for someone that already exists because... well they already exist and have an identity that is established.
Impostor then is the next step in your disguise abilities... suppose you've infiltrated a cult as a sage using Infiltration Expertise. You get close to the high priest and leader of the cult, close enough to study his speech, mannerisms, and writings. At some point, you can now take him out and masquerade as the high priest. And no one is the wiser unless they have a reason to be wary. So now you go to the ritual and instead of summoning the evil deity you scuttle the altar, free the sacrifice, and steal the evil gem that was going to make it all possible.
Someone with the Actor feat doesn't have this type of auto-success built in.
Yeah, this is a wholly different issue. Though there's plenty to do during downtime, in the DMG and Xanathar's, it's just a matter of your game having downtime or not. Players can be doing other things like seeking out magic items, making money, or contacts, or crafting. This at least covers making the identities.
But yeah full blown infiltration would be a major lag at an actual table session.
The disguise is part of the identity. We're trying to replicate the level 9 feature that you and others are claiming can be done at level 1 by anyone with Deception and Disguise Kit proficiency.
Where in the Assassin ability does it say that has to be the order of operations? Or even that a disguise is needed?
It's not a coincidence that the subclass grants you proficiency in the Disguise Kit you know.
I could create a false identity with just Deception and Forgery depending on the persona I created.
I never said they were. But tell me - if they don't question your rogue because you're an Assassin and didn't need to make a check, but they question my Rogue and come up short because they can't beat my checks, then I have one question: what's the hornswoggling difference at the end of the day? Either way, both rogues succeed.
Like... this isn't about making a false identity. This is about making a nearly flawless identity, one which just automatically works but gives the DM an out if the players try anything too crazy.
As you yourself noted, what Batman does with Matches is different. The Assassin can’t establish an identity that belongs to someone else; they need to make somebody up who seems plausible.
And yes, they'll go unquestioned provided they don't screw up by picking an existing person.
But being questioned is not an automatic failure.Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2024-04-28 at 11:44 PM.
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2024-04-29, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
That was not my experience as a DM. The PC Assassin in a Temple of Elemental Evil + Descent into Avernus style game, used the ability once to help the entire party infiltrate The Elemental Fire cult that was in league with Zariel.
My games do include downtime activities, when appropriate. The PC's knew the location of the secret base, and the Assassin PC basically walked up and said something to the effect of " Hi, I'm Bob from Evil Fire Cult Lodge 49, and I brought this letter from Lodge 49's evil fire cult leader....can me and my friends come in?"
and it worked. Up until a point.
"Thereafter, if you adopt the new identity as a disguise, other creatures believe you to be that person until given an obvious reason not to." is what the ability states.
So if the Assassin is just designed as a killing machine, with nothing devoted to Deception, the disguise will only take you so far. In Roleplaying the above scene, the group was welcomed by the Evil Fire Cult, and the PC Assassin, as a sign of great honor was asked to lead that evenings fire services.
(luckily the PC had Expertise in Deception)
The second time the PC used the ability, the PC Assassin's player had missed a few sessions. The PCs had become separated from each other, in a burning prime material city, trapped in hell, and then had been reunited, sans the Assassin.
More than two weeks, in game had passed. The Assassin had in that time developed a false identity as a Succubus in Zariel's Army. The idea is super clever. The problem, was the PC Assassin did not speak Abyssal, nor Infernal, and had no Telepathy at all.
The False ID's power is really cool. The problem is, the niche of the power's usefulness is somewhat small. Infiltration Expertise should also either grant Expertise with the Disguise Kit, or at least Advantage on Ability Checks using a Disguise Kit. Those are solid, generally applicable boosts, in addition to flimsy False IDs.
The Assassin also receives proficiency in the Poisoner's Kit, seems like the subclass could have had a benefit designed around being adroit with poisons.Last edited by Blatant Beast; 2024-04-29 at 12:59 AM.
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2024-04-29, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I mean, when it takes about a month for your new ship to be built, you might as well try to do something, right?
At least at my table downtime hasn't been that hard to come across, I am a more sandbox style DM so downtime is how much time and money players are willing to spend, and in the games I am a player in we have had a couple projects that just took an extended period of time, the game that is currently active we are in a bit of a bind right now but before that we all had day jobs in a city and obligations to fulfill, downtime was part of the draw during that time.My sig is something witty.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2024-04-29, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
1) Where did I say anything about level 1?
2) So for automatic belief (until obvious reason failure), the Assassin needs to adopt it as a disguise; nobody who doesn't care about not rolling needs to.
Why would I be against contested checks? I have Expertise, Reliable Talent, and permanent Advantage, while the NPCs I'm infiltrating don't. Contest away, they're going to lose.
It's not superior. If you don't need to roll, and I do but will never fail anyway, there's no superiority. Just the illusion that you're using to salve your feelings about your bad feature.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-04-29, 03:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I would kill for that sort of downtime in my PotA game. My artificer can't even get some time to work on making some armor!
As a bandaid solution you could just give them the Actor feat at 9th and Poisoner at 13th in addition to Infiltration/Impostor.Last edited by Kane0; 2024-04-29 at 04:59 AM.
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2024-04-29, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Says you. Earlier you accused me of houseruling... here you are assuming what it takes to adopt a false identity. The rules don't tell us what it takes to create a false persona with an established history, profession, and background, to such a degree that no one questions it. (Not to mention now you are simultaneously claiming that you don't have to wear a disguise so you can avoid the ability check to make one, AND ALSO you have perma-Advantage on Deception checks due to Xanathar's suggestions when wearing a disguise. As I said earlier and continues to be born out, the commentary here is incoherent. People just say contrary things spread out through various posts to dunk on martials.)
YOU are assuming it's a trivial thing and then turning around and complaining that the assassin doesn't have a 9th level feature. Like... that's a Psyren problem that Psyren is creating. People are like "what were the devs thinking???" meanwhile no one can demonstrate how you're supposed to establish a full blown living and unquestioned identity without Infiltration Expertise. Oh... something something Kenku... something something Background feature...
Why would I be against contested checks?
I have Expertise, Reliable Talent, and permanent Advantage, while the NPCs I'm infiltrating don't. Contest away, they're going to lose.
The Xanathar suggestion is not always on Advantage just because you're wearing a disguise. Reliable Talent is 2 levels away, stop using it as a crutch to support your claim that anyone can do Infiltration Expertise. So you have Expertise in Deception, and sometimes Advantage, depending on if the DM feels the disguise (your Schrodinger's Disguise that you are and are not wearing at the same time) can help make the lie more convincing.
It's not superior. If you don't need to roll, and I do but will never fail anyway, there's no superiority. Just the illusion that you're using to salve your feelings about your bad feature.
It's perfectly possible that some games can make better use of features than others. So I don't get the kind of downtime that Blatant Beast and Witty Username have mentioned they have in their games, and like you I'd kill for some of that downtime lol.
It's part of the reason I think martials should get more features. If you only make features that will come up all the time, you lose out on out of combat features and powerful narrative features. So give bothCastlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2024-04-29, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
The dilemma is What Is This Ability Actually Giving You. If the players want to infiltrate an organization via disguise, I'm not going to parse the every minutiae of exactly what they're using. At the very low end, if they don't even have proficiency in Deception, well they're extremely unlikely to succeed and I'd make that clear. But if one character has disguise self, and one is a changeling or a kenku, and at least one of them had a decent Deception check (and the barb and the ranger can keep their mouths shut to be silent bodyguards), like I'm just going to roll with that. If they have something really applicable, like Silver Tongue, the Actor feat, or just a monster Deception check, I don't see how in practice Infiltration Expertise is really getting you anything additional.
As the DM, I'm not going to carefully weigh every single possible way this plan could be carried out and decide the exact outcome if they used ability Y instead of X, thus preserving some outcome that only Infiltration Expertise could achieve. Infiltration Expertise is so specific, and skill uses are so NON-specific, whatever it's doing is just gonna get lost in the noise. It's a plot point. It's not a class ability.
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2024-04-29, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
The answer is nothing if you have given it all away already because someone can cast Disguise Self and has a good Deception modifier. But that's not a problem with the feature.
If the players want to infiltrate an organization via disguise, I'm not going to parse the every minutiae of exactly what they're using.
But if one character has disguise self, and one is a changeling or a kenku, and at least one of them had a decent Deception check (and the barb and the ranger can keep their mouths shut to be silent bodyguards), like I'm just going to roll with that. If they have something really applicable, like Silver Tongue, the Actor feat, or just a monster Deception check, I don't see how in practice Infiltration Expertise is really getting you anything additional.
But again, it sounds like you're achieving an infiltration in the short term, which seems different to me to what Infiltration Expertise can do in the long term.
As the DM, I'm not going to carefully weigh every single possible way this plan could be carried out and decide the exact outcome if they used ability Y instead of X, thus preserving some outcome that only Infiltration Expertise could achieve.
Infiltration Expertise is so specific, and skill uses are so NON-specific, whatever it's doing is just gonna get lost in the noise. It's a plot point. It's not a class ability.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2024-04-29, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I'm naming random junk that's available at level 1-3. This is a level 9 feature.
This is extraordinarily specific and non-frequent, and exactly why I called it out as a bad class feature before. Class features should come up frequently. This is the opposite of that.
If you were the DM, how much time would you dedicate to making this one particular feature feel interesting and usable? What wouldn't you allow the players to do if they didn't have this particular feature?
Yes, DM's have to adjudicate all the time, which is precisely the problem. If there were better rules about what exactly skill checks did, there wouldn't be this massive bleed between Deception, Disguise Kits, and whatever Infiltration Expertise is supposed to be.
This ability is great for an NPC; a little explanation for how they're always in the know, always showing up at the most (in)convenient of times. But for a player?? I'm just massively skeptical that a DM would actually spend the time and brainpower to make this feel special (i.e., functionally different than all of the aforementioned abilities, skills, and options that players would try to use).Last edited by Skrum; 2024-04-29 at 09:13 AM.
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2024-04-29, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
IE lets you play Silk from the Belgariad/Mallorean series by Eddings. Though arguably, Silk had a LOT of personas he used, not just one.
I would also contend that Assassin is one of the most selfish archetypes, in both senses of the word. They want to go first at the start of combat to get the drop on their foe, to the point where they'll ignore the party plan. And none of their subclass abilities are party facing. At best, you might end up with something like Blatant Beast describes, where the assassin is using their infiltration ability to play party leader and get the party into a base or something; but when used 'correctly', the ability is really about being part of an organization long term, where you might be able to get other party members hired A-Team style, but that really depends on the party make up more than the campaign, IMO. A Devotion Paladin will more than likely have a hard time getting accepted and being part of team evil. An Archfey Warlock will be sad trying to infiltrate Team TreeKiller to help the assassin 'take them out from the inside.'
In regards to advantage on checks to replicate IE with other Rogue archetypes, it reminds me of a time where a Rogue with a Cloak of the Elvenkind was trying to stealth up the stairs of a ziggurat to bypass a line of archers. Rolled two nat 1s and got peppered. It happens, and it doesn't even need to be nat 1s. Any two low rolls can happen and now you're either killed, or captured, or fighting a group you didn't want to (for whatever reason, otherwise why go the infiltration route?)
The funny thing to me, is all the various ways to play 'Spy' is grappling with the a playstyle 5E isn't built for. It runs smack dab into the Exploration and Social pillars with zero support for PCs that aren't built for it, very little support in the way of how to actually run intrigue at the DM level (especially when your players are playing classes that go against type). This is Dungeons and Dragons, not Bond (James) and Powers (Austin). As such, I'll throw my hat in the ring for those desiring a complete rebuild of the classes that actually fit the theme of game, rather than trying to shoehorn the other classes into a style the game doesn't support well.Trollbait extraordinaire
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2024-04-29, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
1) I still have perma-advantage because of the Forger's Kit, which I explicitly included in my example. That's a tool too, PHB 154/XGtE 81.
2) You're right, the rules don't tell us what it takes to create a false persona. Your houserule came into play by forcing everyone who is not an Assassin to also need 7 days of prep time ("or more") as well as 25gp ("or more") in order to protect the bad subclass's bad niche.
You get irritated whenever I bring up 2024, but then you say obviously wrong things like "this is a Psyren problem" like they didn't go out and poll the entire playerbase on the PHB subclasses and decide what features needed changing based on those results. 2014 Infiltration Expertise is on the chopping block because most players scored it badly. You really think they only asked me?
So players at your tables aren't allowed to know if they've built their character to be good at something? What is the point of those Rogue features then, in your view?
Please, calling a subclass feature bad is not a personal attack. Give me a break.
I wouldn't even mind if it was situational, so long as it wasn't the only thing Assassins got at that level. Ribbons are fine - nobody complains about Thieves' Cant at level 2 even if their DM never uses it, because Rogues also get Cunning Action (and now, WM) at that level as the features that actually come up routinely in play.Last edited by Psyren; 2024-04-29 at 09:48 AM.
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2024-04-29, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I think a big part of the issue is that it comes so late (which is also an issue with Rogue subclasses in general).
If it was a Lv3 feature then you could potentially start a campaign with a few false identities ready to go (the DM might have to do a bit of handwaving with regard to the cost, but I'm sure most would allow it).
However, at Lv9, you're probably going to get it by levelling up - so you can't assume any pre-campaign time spent making the false identities.
Aside, there's also the strange anti-synergy between Infiltration Expertise and Imposter.
Imposter lets you mimic the speech, writing etc. of specific individuals. Okay, great. Now you just ned to use Infiltration Expertise to disguise yourself as that person and... oh, wait, you're explicitly forbidden from actually impersonating someone with it.
I mean, I guess you can just use them independently. It just seems very strange to make them completely incompatible with one another.
If you want a giggle, I suppose you could impersonate Timothy the Merchant while disguising yourself as Frederick the Nobleman, in the hope that anyone who sees through your nobleman disguise will think that Timothy is up to no good.
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2024-04-29, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
The idea is that you disguise yourself as Frederick the Nobleman, get in, use his authority to request an audience with the King, kill him, then leave and take off your disguise to assume your identity as Timothy the Merchant. All the witnesses see Frederick as having killed the King, and Timothy is an upstanding member of the community who is quite obviously not Frederick.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-29, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Yeah, this demonstrates that an ability that takes SEVEN DAYS!, to resolve is just not a good fit for some types of games. Even worse, is you cannot impersonate a real person, with Infiltration Expertise.
The idea of Face Dancers have been around since Frank Herbert wrote Dune in the 1960's.
The Dev's could have leaned into the idea that Assassins are Face Dancers. Let the Assassin mold their features over the course of an hour, (the process is magical, but the results are not...similar to the wording of an Artificer's Right Tool for the Job ability), and allow the Assassin to pass cursory mental inspections such as Detect Thought's surface reading, or Telepathic Communication. Then throw in Expertise with a Disguise Kit.....problem solved. :)
Artificer's have Tool Expertise starting at 6th level. The Forgery and Disguise Kits have been in the game since 5e's publication. Forging Documents and Pretending to be someone else, seems like a natural set of actions for a player to ask to do with those particular Tool Kits.
This goes back to a point that Psyren made earlier. Infiltration Expertise, as written, does a poor job of effectively delineating a suite of subclass only powers. If your response is to make other PCs attempts to use Disguises and Impersonations, nearly impossible to succeed in order to preserve that niche solely for Infiltration Expertise, you have basically beggared the game for a poorly conceived ability.
A Bard, could be a Thespian. If Actors can not act, out of deference to Infiltration Expertise, then in my judgement, one has probably taken niche protection to the extreme.Last edited by Blatant Beast; 2024-04-29 at 09:57 AM.
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2024-04-29, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Infiltration Expertise isn't "acting", its creating an identity. You don't even have to behave any differently than you normally would (indeed, being normal is sort of the point of the ability). You aren't impersonating anyone, you aren't playing a bit, and you aren't just lying about your name.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-29, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Your experience is your experience and I can't argue with it but in my 1000s of hours of playing DND at a wide variety of tables, I have literally never seen a situation where this kind of thing would be desirable from a "fun for the group" perspective.
And note that this is leaving aside the question of whether its actually the best means for infiltration in the first place, something I really don't think is ever going to be true.
EDIT:
Who is this king that he's allowing "generic fred noble" to get next to him where he doesn't have any guards or protections? Why are we killing this guy, is he and evil king? Again, how is he being so naive if there's so many people out to get him?
Is it really that hard to do something like this with other means, which would allow you to actually impersonate a real person?
What is the rest of the party doing while Assassino is having this little adventure?
These are the essential problems with the ability.Last edited by strangebloke; 2024-04-29 at 10:26 AM.
Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2024-04-29, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Thanks for the exposition on the writing style, it will be useful to me in the future.
You ask that like it's a bad thing. Snicker Steak is a regular feature at the Starmast barbecue pit (when the pit master, moi, has had a few more tequilas than is healthy for him. For desert, we offer jalapeno topped banana splits). Just kidding.
For my part, I'll tell you when one shows up in my games. I do use (as a player) the "at will disguise self" invocation on my Celestial Warlock to do a great many things with fake identities. She almost always gets away with it, but a few times she has not. Which kills off that identity. Now and again, the deception or persuasion or performance check fails, or someone sees through the disguise self spell (true seeing, damnit!) and I am foiled. Dimension Door the heck out of there! Tell me about it! See above. But I still think that the level 9 feature could use a bit of a boost. (Maybe advantage on all performance checks?)
To be fair, PHB assassin was published at a time when feats were an optional part of the game. But I agree with the points you made in that post. Also, Volo's Kenku is a mess.
I am in one campaign where we often gets stretches of down time that go from a week to a month. (Phoenix Phyre's campaign). In our Curse of Strahd campaign, we have so far gotten zero.
It's an OK sub class for a two-person party. I've seen that done. (Levels 3-7 with a Monk, Shadow). Urban setting. Two vHumans. But that's an edge case.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-04-29 at 10:44 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2024-04-29, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
That's correct - so long as there is not an actual "Frederick the Nobleman" that the King's seneschal remembers is actually off visiting the nation of Somewhere and therefore couldn't be the guy who's currently trying to get into the King's audience chamber with a dagger up his sleeve, and calls the guards. This is a possible screwup the Assassin PC can make due to not having the entire world's NPC roster at their fingertips like the DM does, that represents a potential failstate of the ability.
Indeed, and there's also the very broad "obvious reason" clause. "Hey, this guy says he's a noble from Eaglestan, but Eaglestan just abolished their nobility and converted to a representative democracy!" "Hey, this guy says he's the crown prince of Anywhereville, but the King of Anywhereville only has daughters!" "Hey, this guy say he's a duke from Remotetopia, but that's on the other side of the globe and teleportation is down, how'd he get here?!"
None of these are insurmountable, but they're enough to pierce the "automatic belief" everything-proof shield and get some rolls going, rolls which the Assassin has no other subclass features to help with.Last edited by Psyren; 2024-04-29 at 10:45 AM.
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2024-04-29, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Setting aside the philosophical debate of Acting/Identity/Authenticity....an alternate identity's effectiveness only depends upon how long the PC can keep up the ruse. "Captain Mandrake of the Kings Royal Musketeers" is still going to be expected to give passcodes and know the org chart, and have basic cultural knowledge of the people they are infiltrating...and the ability does not automatically grant you that knowledge.
The ability is like the old Castle Wolfenstein computer game, you get to wear a uniform. You have papers, you seem to be whom you say you are....until you do something that makes people suspicious.
Depending upon the circumstances, that can be a short trip indeed.
"I am the Great Wyrm Palcidisax, in the shape of this mortal halfling, I claim my seat on the Draconic Council, but request that all proceedings take place in common, because I am sick of Draconic".....the jig is probably already up.
What about the separate identity makes the ploy immune to discovery, Keltest?
I would be interested in you expanding on your point on Identity.Last edited by Blatant Beast; 2024-04-29 at 10:37 AM.
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2024-04-29, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Youve misunderstood. Fred the noble is a real person. You imitated him with a disguise kit and your ability to copy his voice and mannerisms. Tim the merchant is your fake identity, which you return to in order to avoid suspicion after youve fled the castle. You're throwing Fred under the bus because youre an assassin who wants to kill a king, and they do things like that sometimes.
And only that last one is a problem.Last edited by Keltest; 2024-04-29 at 10:34 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-29, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Which goes back to the question of what does the rest of the party do?
Frank William Abagnale Jr is fine, but the rest of the party is implicated in the murder?
I love a heist style game, but that is very different from a Dungeon Crawl.
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2024-04-29, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Last edited by Keltest; 2024-04-29 at 10:49 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-29, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Fine and dandy but - explain why I need to be an Assassin for this again? The whole point of the plan is the murder, which needs me to be Fred, and which the Assassin doesn't help me with at all beyond disguise kit proficiency (since Fred is real) - something any rogue under the sun can get, and several do even better with.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2024-04-29, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I was commenting on the synergy between Imposter and Infiltration Expertise. Assassins are the best at imitating real people, which gives you three identities to use when doing something like this: your short term disguise, your long term alias, and your real identity.
Also, thats a terrible question. Why do you need any class or subclass?Last edited by Keltest; 2024-04-29 at 10:53 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-29, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I am with assassin's high level features being bad, things that should be within the perveiw of the skill system in a hyperspecific way is how we get terrible.
I don't know why they also needed to nerf assassinate in the 2024 version.
That does get into the theme of the 2024 version, nearly every buff comes at the cost of damage, assassinate does less in exchange for the advantage on initiative that the rogue low key didn't need, cunning strikes are neat but a 1d6 damage cost will mean quite a bit at the level that rogue's already do the worst in comparative damage.
That does get less as levels and SS and GWM have their big bumps to damage removed, but I am not sure the 1d6 damage cost is warranted, the effects are all situational to varying degrees.My sig is something witty.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2024-04-29, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Maybe I'm just getting the wrong end of the stick, but I'm getting increasingly perplexed as to what this ability is supposed to represent.
It apparently doesn't require any sort of disguise. Nor does it require the ability to act, talk, or behave any differently to how you normally would.
I present - the flawless and varied personas of an expert assassin:
Spoiler
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2024-04-29, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?