Camp Sleep S'More (Day Six)

[Jontom Xire]

I distrust Shadowcaller and think he is in cahoots as a CWSotT with Banjo1985.

Evnafets pointed at Shadowcaller before he died and before the Emerald Rose evidence was found..

Yes I know Shadowcaller kinda started a bandwagon against EmeraldRose, but consider this - at least two others had the same information he did. If he hadn't started it he would have seemed suspicious but by starting it he seems cleaner than snow.

Anyway I'm sure at least one of those who had access to the information before it was made public is a CWSotT, and also that Banjo is.

Banjo voted for Emerald Rose before the information was made public, but I was already suspicious of him. Which gives us three options:

1) Banjo is innocent - so why did he earlier point at Evnafets, something I noticed and pointed at him for.

2) Banjo pointed at EmeraldRose as a standard point at another CWSotT to provide future cover when someone does voting analysis (a common trick these days).

3) Banjo was warned by the CWSotT that Emerald Rose had been scried and got in an early point so as to make himself seem a good guy.

I don't know what time zones everyone is in, but there were only 5 hours between Banjo's and Shadowcaller's posts.

So I think they're both CWSotT, but let's lynch Banjo first since he is in my opinion more likely. Ideally lynch both.

[Shadowcaller]

Wait a minute, are you trying to do another "vampire II"? Jontom Xire.

His logic may look appealing to you with all this "if we lynch X today we can lynch Z tomorrow" be I fear that we are dangerous close to be reduced to the exact numbers of bad campers here.

[Jontom Xire]

Ooh - immediate defensive counter-point - protecting a team mate?

Also look at the time stamp: 8:48 am (my time).

Shadowcaller's last post proves conclusively that he is online around this time. Mountain Faerie ALWAYS posts in what is very very early morning or night for me, way before Shadowcaller comes online. So why wait so long on the day we lynched ER before revealing the scry results (7 hours or so)?

Suppose that during the last lynch/day cycle, ShadowCaller comes online at around 8:am. He forwards the PM from the narrators about Emerald Rose to the rest of his CWSotT team. But he doesn't do anything about it publically yet to give his team a chance to react. One does: Banjo. Shadowcaller then gets on line later in the day. The longer he leaves it the higher the chance one of his cabin mates will post before him and he wants credit for "outing" Emerald Rose. Finally he can't leave it any longer, maybe it's even his last chance for posting, so post he does, revealing the result of the scry.

I'm at work, so can't really afford to do it, but it would be worth someone looking to see if Shadowcaller was online that day before 10 am my time (British Summer Time). If he was, posting on another thread maybe, then that proves (to me anyway) that he is a CWSotT. Why else would he so much as hesitate to post the scry result?

The only question to me is: do we lynch Shadowcaller or Banjo first?

And no, I'm not doing a vampire. As a bad guy I never start bandwagons because it's too suspicious if they go wrong. In fact I avoid pushing them too. Only in the very end game when there were only 5 or so or fewer players left did I start trying to guide the lynch where I wanted it.

[Shadowcaller]

Well then let me shot some holes in your theories then.
You say that we decided to scry EmeraldRoese and I got voted down by the other members in the team and then warned banjo about it?
This is incorrect, I wanted to scry Freshmeat but the others (CurlyCitGirl and dallas) wanted to scry SupaGoof so we did.
It turned out he was a normal camper but Mountain_Faerie let us have a "bonus scry" that was decided by dice and that scry revealed that EmeraldRose was a bad camper (this resultant came along with the resultant of the normal scry.)
Directly after that I gave you the resultant of the scry so its impossible that I could have warned banjo about it since I did not even know that EmeraldRose was going to be scried.
If you don't belive this then just ask dallas, curly or Mountain_Faerie, they can confirm it.

[banjo1985]

Right....so you're accusing me of being a wrongsider because I accused EmeraldRose before the scry came out? That's a fairly flimsy case if you ask me. I've pointed at ER several times, only to be shot down every time, it just so happens that this time my point was substantiated later on by the flag winners scry.

The fact is, I'm a regular camper, and have had contact with no other camper, good or bad. Jontom, you should know as well as anyone that I sometimes get a hunch about someone, and they often seem to be good (remember Spytrap 1 when I outed Yspoch, and Ye Olde West where I took you down?). ER was a hunch that got backed up, simple as that.

As for Shadowcaller, I have no idea what his role is, and I don't know yours either. I'm voting for Shadowcaller, not you, purely because if he turns out to be good then it shoots your theory down without me ending up dead. As you can imagine, I prefer to live in these games.

[Jontom Xire]

Is it just me that is getting hideous amounts of grief from this website? I haven't been able to view this thread for HOURS, and despite the fact that my repeated attempts to post my post failed, it seems to have posted anyway, multiple times!

Well then let me shot some holes in your theories then.
You say that we decided to scry EmeraldRoese and I got voted down by the other members in the team and then warned banjo about it?
This is incorrect, I wanted to scry Freshmeat but the others (CurlyCitGirl and dallas) wanted to scry SupaGoof so we did.
It turned out he was a normal camper but Mountain_Faerie let us have a "bonus scry" that was decided by dice and that scry revealed that EmeraldRose was a bad camper (this resultant came along with the resultant of the normal scry.)
Directly after that I gave you the resultant of the scry so its impossible that I could have warned banjo about it since I did not even know that EmeraldRose was going to be scried.
If you don't belive this then just ask dallas, curly or Mountain_Faerie, they can confirm it.

Good way to make yourself more suspicious, Shadowcaller, by not answering a single point I made, but instead answering a load of points I didn't make! Did you even READ what I wrote?

I NEVER said: "that we decided to scry EmeraldRoese and I got voted down by the other members in the team and then warned banjo about it". How would I even know that anyway? What I did say is that you got the result of the scry and warned all the CWSotT about it.

Next you neatly avoid the point I was trying to make:

Directly after that I gave you the resultant of the scry so its impossible that I could have warned banjo about it since I did not even know that EmeraldRose was going to be scried.

We have only your word that you gave us the scry result "directly after that". As I already pointed out you are on at around 8 am (my time) yet you didn't post the scry result until after 3pm, some 7 hours later! Mountain Faerie would have undoubtedly been safely tucked up in bed at that time.

You may not have known that Emerald Rose was going to be scried BEFORE, but what I was suggesting is that you told the CWSotT AFTER. Nice way to claim innocence by protesting that you couldn't have done something I never even suggested you had done!

As far as shooting holes in my theories goes...you missed!! None of your points counters any of my theories in any way.

[Mordokai]

Well then let me shot some holes in your theories then.
You say that we decided to scry EmeraldRoese and I got voted down by the other members in the team and then warned banjo about it?
This is incorrect, I wanted to scry Freshmeat but the others (CurlyCitGirl and dallas) wanted to scry SupaGoof so we did.
It turned out he was a normal camper but Mountain_Faerie let us have a "bonus scry" that was decided by dice and that scry revealed that EmeraldRose was a bad camper (this resultant came along with the resultant of the normal scry.)
Directly after that I gave you the resultant of the scry so its impossible that I could have warned banjo about it since I did not even know that EmeraldRose was going to be scried.
If you don't belive this then just ask dallas, curly or Mountain_Faerie, they can confirm it.

Emphasis mine. I won't interfere with this latest exchange of opinions beetwen you guys, you can do it on yourself, I'm sure. Instead, let me just say this:

Oh hell no, you didn't!!!!

I'm as much as in favor of winning as the next player, but really, to me it looks like you're trying to screw the wolves any way possible. What possible rational way can you have for explaining this "bonus scry"? If they screw it, they screw it, let it pass! Would they get a bonus scry if they find ER with the first scry? No, really, this hardly sounds fair to me. As much as it looked like CWSOTT was doing good from the start, they have a hard enought time already. This extra scry just screwed them up even more, but good.

[Shadowcaller]

Yes the forum is kind of slow today, I blame the multipel updates....
Anyway if you are so sure that I'm a bad camper and that I somehow have done all that you cclaim I have done why not chnage your vote from banjo to me?
Banjo have already voted for me and in your theory we are both bad campers so why not change it?
With all this I'm not even sure that you are a bad camper anymore but ill keep my vote thought since this theory is waaaay out and if I'm lynched that will only prove my point.
But please fellow campers I have personally never seen a consiracy theorie like Jontom being correct and I know that this one is not correct either.

Edit:I admitt that I never read your whole post. But now when I do the theory seems even more strange, You claim that I somehow convinced Curlycitgirl and dallas-dakota that we should scry EmeraldRose and then I warned banjo so he could point at her before the resultants of the scry came?
Well we can just ask dallas or wait maybe he is also a bad camper (gasp) well we could ask Mountain_Faerie also if you like.
If anyone responds this will only further disprove your thoery.

Mordokai I regret that I told you about the "bonus-scry" but it is true thought. Along with the resultants of our scry of Supagoof we got the information that EmeraldRose was a bad camper.
Belive what you will but I am telling you the truth right now, just ask anyone else that got the reusltants of the scry.

[Freshmeat]

First of all, this site lag is absolutely intolerable.

Secondly, a few things:

1. Banjo was scried some time ago as a good camper. Yspoch, a confirmed BFF has stated as much in that list he made a while ago. Banjo may have been recruited in the meantime, or he may be the alpha, but technically speaking, the odds of Banjo being bad are lowered considerably.
2. Since I am positive that if we don't get a bad camper today, we'll lose, I might just as well reveal that I'm the last mason. Under normal circumstances, both Yspoch and evnafets could confirm this. If one of them got killed, the other would still be able to do so. Due to completely random and unforeseen circumstances however (), both of them died in one night. Highly annoying. Probably game-changing.*

*: Which reminds me: if evnafets was killed last night, and Supagoof was killed yesterday, then when did Yspoch actually really get killed until it was corrected? Because I feel robbed of an additional mason here if it turns out that the one who was my ally was actually already dead before the three-consecutive-days-without-a-mason-getting-killed recruitment even happened.
Unless I'm seriously misreading that last narration here, I believe I was awarded a dead recruit here for my patience.

My masonhood and the above recruitment rule is also one of several reasons why I've been fairly passive until now (the other reasons are a secondary power role which turned out to be useless and scholastic duties, respectively).

Either way, it's up to you if you want to believe this or not. If not, just skip this part and move on to the next.
3. I'm not buying into this "Shadowcaller is CWSOTT" theory. If he were a bad camper and got a free scry, it'd automatically exclude those on his own team (obviously) so he wouldn't have scried a bad camper. Even if it did, why would he tell anyone else about it? The original (communal) scry was on Supagoof. The scry on ER was given to Shadowcaller personally. If the scry turned up a bad camper and he was one himself, why not simply keep quiet about it? Why randomly sacrifice one of their own? It's not like the campers needed any help in lynching the wrong people. All of it seems incredibly unlikely, and I'm finding it highly dubious that this is the best accusation people can come up with at this point.


Personally, I believe both Haruki-Kun and Helgraf to be CWSOTT.
I also believe that there is still a third CWSOTT out there as well, but I'm not going to mention my suspicion as to this person's identity in public yet because that'll just earn me a petty revenge-point in case I'm wrong, and every vote is going to count today. So in other words: can we please (try and) vote to get a CWSOTT killed rather than vote 'because I want to survive!'
That's not the right mindset here.

Let's take a closer look at Haruki-Kun:

• Consistently votes late, especially when CWSOTT's are being accused.
• Has joined a phenomenal amount of bandwagons so far.
• Was part of the extremely fishy Free Hand bandwagon on day 8 which (apparently) everyone has chosen to completely ignore until now. (Helgraf was part of this bandwagon as well, skipping straight from the dallas-dakota bandwagon to the Free Hand bandwagon -- it seems likely that he was protecting Face of Evil that day.)
• On day 15, evnafets threw a point at Haruki-Kun. All of a sudden people stop following his lead, and the first few points actually boost two other bandwagons that are shaping up: the one against Yspoch and the one against Ganurath. Helgraf's name appears here as well, predictably enough.
  It's a subtle derailment, but it's there.
• On day 16, neither Helgraf not Haruki voted. Inactivity? As evidenced by the fact that we had a complete rollcall on day 17, some people (such as Haruki and Helgraf) are clearly paying attention, but trying to lay low. If you've got a special role, this would make sense. If you're just a camper... not so much.
• That reminds me: we know that the alpha picked both I'm da Rogue and Face of Evil on his or her team, presumably to avoid any potential leaks if only one of them were a bad camper (since they both chat a lot with each other). Doesn't the same hold true for Haruki-Kun and radikalskippy?
  I believe it does.
• Day 18: we try again to lynch Haruki. Helgraf ends up on the counter-bandwagon again. Total surprise.
• Evnafets gets killed. Count on someone playing the frame card today to supposedly prove Haruki's 'innocence'.
• Today: someone accuses Haruki-Kun yet again. In less than half a second someone else immediately tries to stir up a lynch mob against the accusator.

To me it seems like Haruki-Kun is being blatantly protected all the way by a number of people, and I can think of only one reason why, because it's definitely not because he has proven himself to be innocent somewhere in this thread.

As a matter of fact, try and look for any mitigating factors that speak to Haruki's favor. You'll find none of them.
That's right. After a full 18 days, he's never led a bandwagon against a camper, boosted one of these bandwagons early on, presented any logic that would incriminate a bad camper or did anything even remotely resembling the kind of behaviour that doesn't correlate precisely with that of a CWSOTT member. No matter your point of view, there is simply nothing.

So I say we get rid of Haruki-Kun today.

[Shadowcaller]

I agree with Freshmeat and changes my point back to Haruki-Kun.

[Nychta]

I promised myself I wouldn't complain about this lag, but it seems ironic that I can only access it during school.

Seeing as it's been a desperately long and boring lesson, I've actually read all these arguments. However, I didn't get most of the arguments between Jontom Xire and Shadowcaller. Freshmeat made sense, though, so I'll go with him. Haruki-chun.

[Helgraf]

Mighty convenient for you, Freshmeat. No matter whom I vote for now, you're going to claim it's because I'm a CWSOTTer. Either I vote for Haruki-kun, and you'll say I'm trying to do it to cover my tracks, or I vote for someone else, and you say I'm trying to counter-bandwagon to protect Haruki.

It doesn't matter one whit against the bandwagon I'm sure you'll form against me tomorrow which way I vote. Never mind that I have voted for a goodly number of the CWSOTT bandwagons, your little lecture vis-a-vis Haruki-kun aside. I must be guilty because you've said so with big bold facts.

*points at Haruki-kun and shakes his head in disgust*

[Jontom Xire]

You claim that I somehow convinced Curlycitgirl and dallas-dakota that we should scry EmeraldRose and then I warned banjo so he could point at her before the resultants of the scry came?

I WISH people would read my posts. I never claimed anything of the sort.

Shadowcaller's whole defense is based on the assumption that I claim he warned Banjo before ER was scried. Actually I was claiming that he warned ALL CWSotT, not just Banjo, AFTER the result was given. I hate when people try to pick holes in a theory of mine without apparently having read it or understood it. It means I just end up repeating myself trying to bash holes in their thick skulls until they understand what I'm saying. It's like stating "the sky is blue" and having someone reply "No it's not, the grass is green not blue. This theory of yours is all wrong".

In this case it's also very very rude since you are putting words in my mouth that I never said. Yes, the theories that you are claiming are mine are complete garbage - but they're not mine. In some fanciful dream world of yours they may be, but if you actually really actually read what I actually really wrote, you're all wrong. But here you are attributing this $%^ to me - it's very rude. It's possible, but I don't think you're clever enough, that you're trying to rewrite reality - that people will only read your posts and then believe I wrote what you said I wrote rather than what I actually wrote, and hence believe that my theories are as awful as the ones you claim I posted.


And the word is RESULT not RESULTANT, ok?

Emphasis mine. I won't interfere with this latest exchange of opinions beetwen you guys, you can do it on yourself, I'm sure. Instead, let me just say this:

Oh hell no, you didn't!!!!

I'm as much as in favor of winning as the next player, but really, to me it looks like you're trying to screw the wolves any way possible. What possible rational way can you have for explaining this "bonus scry"? If they screw it, they screw it, let it pass! Would they get a bonus scry if they find ER with the first scry? No, really, this hardly sounds fair to me. As much as it looked like CWSOTT was doing good from the start, they have a hard enought time already. This extra scry just screwed them up even more, but good.

If Supagoof was already dead then that's just the Narrators being merciful. They weren't so merciful in Vampire when I tried to night kill someone who was already dead :) However if Supagoof is alive then you're right, that's really unfair.

First of all, this site lag is absolutely intolerable.

I totally agree.

1. Banjo was scried some time ago as a good camper. Yspoch, a confirmed BFF has stated as much in that list he made a while ago. Banjo may have been recruited in the meantime, or he may be the alpha, but technically speaking, the odds of Banjo being bad are lowered considerably.

I wasn't paying much attention back there, but I'm sure you wouldn't make a claim like that unless it was true, so I change my point to Shadowcaller because even if despite his suspicious behaviour he isn't a bad guy, I absolutely HATE people who try to argue with my theories without reading them or understanding them, people who put words in my mouth, who misquote my theories, and who state that I claim A, B, and C when I didn't.

Shadowcaller has made a lot of statements about what I have claimed and not one of them has been correct. It might be deliberate misdirection, or it might be lack of understanding of English, or it might be stupidity. I don't know, I don't care, I hate it.

2. Since I am positive that if we don't get a bad camper today, we'll lose, I might just as well reveal that I'm the last mason.

Forgive my usual level of paranoia, but we have only YOUR word for that. Forgive me if I don't believe you for a second.

3. I'm not buying into this "Shadowcaller is CWSOTT" theory. If he were a bad camper and got a free scry, it'd automatically exclude those on his own team (obviously) so he wouldn't have scried a bad camper.

Hmm, unusual for you to be so off the ball here, Freshmeat. I didn't think HE got the free scry, I thought THEY got the free scry didn't they? They played CTF as a team, they got a scry (two as it turned out) as a team, so naturally I believed they got the scry result as a team. In which case why would the scry exclude CWSotT.

The scry on ER was given to Shadowcaller personally.

How do you know? On what are you basing this statement? Do you have personal knowledge - i.e. a narrator told you? If you claim so I find that suspicious since why would the narrator tell you this fact? Did Shadowcaller tell you this? If so such a statement is automatically dubious and must be assumed to be false unless there is significant cause to think otherwise.

=================

Summary:

Banjo was claimed to be good by a known BFF (Yspoch). My mistake.

Shadowcaller's counter-arguments are full of illogic and untruths.

Freshmeat is making claims without any supporting evidence.

[Shadowcaller]

Well here is the message I recived if its that important but right now i'm almost hoping to get lynched just to prove your theory wrong.

Well this is a democratic process so let us scry Supagoof since two out of three want it.
And yes Supagoof is acting a bit suspicious, just hope he is not the alpha thought.

Thanks for a great game Faerie, hippie and llama.
Even thoguht I have not been able to participate in it that much.

((Shadowcaller, you made my day with capture the flag. I was amazed at your skills of flag finding when you only had one shot each day. Because of this, I am giving you a second peek at the roster - but this one is determined by my die roll.))

You get a quick peek at the roster and see that Supagoof is a regular camper.

As a bonus for being the only player to find any flags, you notice another name on the list. Emerald Rose's name pops out before you can turn away. She is CWSOTTs! (I swear it was a roll of the die)

Now you have to use your new found information to get that bad camper... without getting yourself scared away!

Feel free to share this with the kids on your team. Congratulations on your findings!

[Jontom Xire]

Right, having got that last out of my system, I have read the rest of Freshmeat's theory against Haruki-kun.

It all sounds like good stuff. Personally I haven't noticed anything Haruki-kun has done as suspicious, but then I haven't been keeping a spreadsheet which would have pointed out that sort of behaviour to me in an instant. In fact it's so convincing I'd be inclined to point at Haruki-kun myself except I'm so riled up at him right now, so my point stays.

Also, I know you're suspicious of me, Freshmeat. I can read theories and you make that blatantly clear that I'm your third suspect. Just for reference, I didn't make my theory against Shadowcaller/Banjo to protect HAruki-kun but because I thought they were both suspicious. There was supporting evidence above and beyond what I have written so far:

We now know, and some of us knew before he was scared away, that Evvie was on the side of the angels. Most of us could figure it out by the fact that his theories, and his theories alone, led to the lynching of several CWSotT. Despite this:

Little Banjo runs off with his water pistol to search Square 1.

He also points at Evnafets, purely because he thinks it's strange he's had so many theories on the CWSOTT'ers and hasn't been killed yet.

A night or so later Evnafets gets scared away.

Also:

evnafets points at ShadowCaller because of his uncanny luck in finding flags hidden around the place.

That puts Shadowcaller and Banjo high on my suspicion list. Next I see that Banjo somehow votes for ER before the scry result is posted, which is highly coincidental, or maybe he's psychic. I think I'll look a little closer and then find that Shadowcaller posts early in the day UK time, but somehow didn't post until after 3pm on that particular day. Odd!

As for your theory about Haruki-kun, I'd just like to point out the following:

Are there any arguments for pointing at Haruki?

Strange you didn't at least PM him with your theory so he could change his point. He could have even posted your theory for you to avoid drawing notice to you. You wouldn't need to tell him you were a mason, he would have posted it anyway - and if he didn't then that would have been good evidence against him. A trick you're very capable of figuring out for yourself.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Yes, the lag is terrible.

I'm confused by all posts on this page except the one of freshmeat. It seems like a whole load of useless back pointing and such.

The scry results were send to me by Shadowcaller at : GMT +1 06-11-2008, 05:08 PM. I have no idea if this actually helps anybody.

Freshmeat had contacted me earlier, just when MF posted we would get a free scry. So I'm inclined to trust him and he has his facts on a good row.

Haruki-kun

Btw Curly, its a good thing its till the first of June then.

[banjo1985]

Fair enough. I trust Freshmeats judgement, plus he covered my back when I'd forgotten I'd been scried. Haruki-kun then.

[Jontom Xire]

Just so everyone, including narrators, know, I'm going to be probably unable to get online between an hours time from now and Monday morning. I missed a days voting last weekend - dang that was a short day phase! I generally cannot get on at weekends since I acquired a girlfriend.

[Haruki-kun]

Spoiler

Show

It turned out he was a normal camper but Mountain_Faerie let us have a "bonus scry" that was decided by dice and that scry revealed that EmeraldRose was a bad camper (this resultant came along with the resultant of the normal scry.)

Emphasis mine. I won't interfere with this latest exchange of opinions beetwen you guys, you can do it on yourself, I'm sure. Instead, let me just say this:

Oh hell no, you didn't!!!!

I'm as much as in favor of winning as the next player, but really, to me it looks like you're trying to screw the wolves any way possible. What possible rational way can you have for explaining this "bonus scry"? If they screw it, they screw it, let it pass! Would they get a bonus scry if they find ER with the first scry? No, really, this hardly sounds fair to me. As much as it looked like CWSOTT was doing good from the start, they have a hard enought time already. This extra scry just screwed them up even more, but good.

Mordokai I regret that I told you about the "bonus-scry" but it is true thought. Along with the resultants of our scry of Supagoof we got the information that EmeraldRose was a bad camper.
Belive what you will but I am telling you the truth right now, just ask anyone else that got the reusltants of the scry.

If Supagoof was already dead then that's just the Narrators being merciful. They weren't so merciful in Vampire when I tried to night kill someone who was already dead :) However if Supagoof is alive then you're right, that's really unfair.

Well here is the message I recived if its that important but right now i'm almost hoping to get lynched just to prove your theory wrong.

((Shadowcaller, you made my day with capture the flag. I was amazed at your skills of flag finding when you only had one shot each day. Because of this, I am giving you a second peek at the roster - but this one is determined by my die roll.))

You get a quick peek at the roster and see that Supagoof is a regular camper.

As a bonus for being the only player to find any flags, you notice another name on the list. Emerald Rose's name pops out before you can turn away. She is CWSOTTs! (I swear it was a roll of the die)

Now you have to use your new found information to get that bad camper... without getting yourself scared away!

Feel free to share this with the kids on your team. Congratulations on your findings!

Congratulations, Freshmeat. I never would have thought not being suspicious at all would have been suspicious. Maybe I should have refused to point at Rogue or something. Of course, that would have gotten me lynched about five days early, since I'm a bandwagonist by nature in any Werewolf, Mafia, Ultimate Greed, Heal/Hurt, Brawl, or Monopoly game I play, but that's just me.

Well, it was fun.

About the stuff in the spoiler: We know. We've known for several days now, and trust me, we did not feel happy about it, but what were we to do? We felt even worse when someone received a bonus scry by dice revealing EmeraldRose as a CWSOTT. No, I don't doubt that it was really by dice roll. Seriously, I don't. But that's still leaves the "bonus scry" issue and the fact that it cut the rope holding the guillotine's blade. We also felt it was unfair.

Jontom Xire? There's no "narrators being merciful" in Werewolf. It was the masons who thought it was a good idea to trust Alarra, right? There's no "deserving" for making a mistake. You know, I almost thought I had a chance at surviving this with you protecting me like this. I guess I shouldn't have killed evnafets when he was practically the only one who thought I was innocent. You were right. He was on the side of the Angels, so to speak.

I do have to admit, I did not know about one thing, and that is exactly how or why it happens to be that 7 days after we eradicated every single mason Yspoch gets killed and turns out to be a mason, or why Freshmeat is suddenly able to reveal himself as such. But since I can't guarantee that the masons gave Alarra every single name, I can't really say something fishy happened here. There'll be time to discuss after you guys win the game.

We played our cards well. We pulled an awesome stunt and killed all the power roles. I played with a freaking cool team and I had fun. I went 18 days without anyone suspecting me, and that's a record for me, even though this is actually the first time I've been lynched as far as I remember. I might have even made a few people smile with my RP, and if I did, I'm glad.

If anyone is too lazy to read this entire post, then I'll summarize it right here.
I'm Haruki-kun, the Alpha. I hold no grudges for this game whatsoever, not on the players, and not on the narrators. I still had a lot of fun these past few months. How long has it been? Three months? Well, just enough. I'll leave quietly.

Thank you for your time.

[Freshmeat]

To be honest, I've considered you suspicious for a little longer than just today (and there's also a lot of reasoning I haven't mentioned yet), but my dual role (more on that later) would've made it a bad choice to act directly any sooner than this. Being too paranoid to take anyone in my confidence and being unsure of my suspicions to begin with were also important factors for my silence. Besides, up until yesterday I thought evnafets, being a highly competent analyst (despite the last couple of days), would come to the same conclusions as I and lynch you anyway without my interfering.

Yet still, I have to admit that you played an excellent game. That goes for the other members of team CWSOTT as well. I can honestly say that I think your team deserves to win this game.

As a matter of fact, CWSOTT should have already won by now, given how they've played it up to now. I find it strange that I'm still alive after all this time, but then I find it even more strange that by the time I finally get around to paying at least a bit of attention to this game, us good campers still haven't already lost.
I err... also think my stance on wolf/villager ratios is already well-known, so I won't go into detail about that.

The battle isn't over though. I don't know how many other bad campers are out there (if any), but they can still win. Regardless of what outcome this game may have though, I don't think you'll find anyone here that can claim that CWSOTT didn't play this very well, especially the early game (risky though that move with Alarra and the masons may have been).

In regards to my masonhood: due to the "if no BFF's die for three days in a row, you'll get an extra BFF camper" rule, I became a mason somewhere around the time Zar Peter died (possibly a bit later). That made me the only BFF camper CWSOTT didn't know of. I kept a low profile (made considerably easier because real-life circumstances forced me into that role anyway) and had the good fortune of surviving long enough for the last known BFF camper to die and three days to pass.
In came Yspoch, another BFF camper. Of course, I was already 99% certain that Yspoch was a good camper, and he had also already been scried, so that made the recruitment a bit of a waste (one of several reasons why I dislike randomized recruitment), and - what with narrator miscommunication (?) - I've no idea if Yspoch was even (tehnically) alive by the time he became the new BFF recruit to begin with.

[smellie_hippie]

*smellie_hippie strolls out of the tye dyed cabin and looks at the diminished number of campers who all stare at him bewilderedly.*

Did I miss something?

Ummmm… yeah!!
I got scared…
We found a flag…
Trog made pudding…
I called my mommy…

Whoa whoa whoa… one at a time. I know I’ve missed out on everything, and I expect that I will get some letters from your mommies and daddies. Faerie has been feeling a little stressed about a ‘meet-up’ something or other next weekend, and rolled me out of bed to finish telling the rest of the stories.

Alright then, but before we get started we think you should send him home.

Who?

That ninja over there.

Pssssst… he’s over here.

Oh, yeah… that guy.

Alright. C’mon Haruki, it’s time to call your mom.

Don’t bother, I gave you a wrong number.

Why would you do something like that?

You silly hippie. It was me all along! We’re not finished with you… not by a long shot.

Haruki-khun was sent home from camp. He was the Camp Wrong Side of the Tracks Gang Leader!

((OOC:
Do I really assume that I can just walk back in after being gone for two months? Yes. Do I have some explaining to do? Yes.
1. I left the game for my exam, but have been consulting behind the scenes the entire time. My timing on this was almost exactly the same as last game, so I apologize.

2. There were rules modifications made towards the end of the game, and yes they did have a significant effect on balance. All were designs to try and re-establish balance, but what might have been scalpel precision in the first week or two ended up more like an Orc Battle Axe. Again, I apologize.

3. I have heard comments from multiple players that the game has become ‘unbalanced to the point of no possible winner’. I would like you all to vote on an alternative resolution to the game if you are interested. We can continue game play as written with night phase and day phase. The alternative is a written narrative (much like the Rebellion game). Live or Dead players can participate, since this would be an open market. One camper writes the camp conclusion as if all CWSOtT were kicked out, and one delinquent camper writes the final scene declaring victory against hippie and his foolish campers. We will select 5 judges (who were not involved with the game) to be unbiased opinions.

I will leave the choice up to you. Everyone who has been in camp can cast their opinion on the matter, so please come and speak your mind. (About the game conclusion, not the unbalanced issues. Let’s leave that for a different discussion). Cast a vote for "finish the game" or "write an alternative ending". We truly thank you all for playing!!!))

[Dallas-Dakota]

(Hippy, yes you can just walk back in with a mug of coffee. You're that awesome.))

(I say we just continue as it as is. Especially since I don't know how Rebellion style plays and I didn't understand Mr. Hippie's explenation....)


(I think we should simply go after the other people on Freshmeat's list.)

[Shadowcaller]

Yes, even thought I have been inactive the most time during this game I can clearly see that CWSOTT have done a really good job.
I would probably have been more active if I had not gone aboard right before the start of the game...
Anyway since this is camp I think we should listen to hippies suggestion here and let both teams have a "winning" narration, it feels like its in the line with other stuff we have done here at camp and I also feel that both teams deserve to "win".
No matter the outcome the both teams have had fun right? (or atleast the players that have been very active.)

[banjo1985]

It's a shame this has all gone a bit loopy. CWOTT's deserve every credit for their early game ploy, but I also think the campers deserve credit for clawing a lot of that advantage back, most of it before ER got uncovered by that scry.

I vote we carry on as we are. There are still bad campers left and we're still willing to fight them, as far as I understand. In my opinion we should finish the game, then have a free-for-all about balance afterwards.

[Uncle Festy]

I say we keep playing. But that's because I was totally unaware of any brokenness.
Er… Go team Camp!

[EmeraldRose]

For those who were curious...the person we sent a kill in on that got missed was evnafets. So it would've been evvie who was long dead, not Yspoch.

[I'm da Rogue!]

:D We had the best team ever. ^.^

[Haruki-kun]

For those who were curious...the person we sent a kill in on that got missed was evnafets. So it would've been evvie who was long dead, not Yspoch.

Really? I thought it was SweetLikeLemons, given that evnafets managed to actually use a quarter.

[Skippy]

You might call me a sore loser, but I, too, feel the game went too unbalanced, to the campers' side. If they lost their power roles due to their own mistakes, it wasn't the narrators' place to create rules that were clearly in our disadvantage and completely unfair. And furthermore, without any warning.

I must give credit to the CWSotT, because we made an amazing team, all of us. But apparently, there was no way we could have won this game. Not with the narrators against us. So meh.

As a little sidenote: I admit that Haruki and I also modified some rules when we narrated Alchemists 1, but back then it was the first time we both narrated a game, with a whole new set of rules and if we modified the rules (Which we did just a little) it was just to compensate for our own mistakes, as narrators. Not for the players'.

[Helgraf]

I am tired. What has happened has happened. It cannot be undone. It does not matter to me whether we end this in narrative contest or by procedure. This is currently the last game I'm alive in. Perhaps this is for the best. Perhaps I'm stretching myself too thin, like a certain Baggins remarked, like butter over too much bread.


Long rambling follows on this game, and on the subject of balance in general.

Spoiler

Show

It is, to my mind, too late for fixes. All any more fixes will do is sour the mood further. I should have spoken my thoughts on this earlier. I did not. I held my tongue when I should not have, and probably now I speak when I should remain silent; for that, you have my apologies narrators.

Frankly, I would rather just start fresh, put this whole round behind us, and move forward on a clean slate.

Narrator intervention ... is always a delicate thing, that can all too easily go askew. The problem is, once it's been done once, it becomes very difficult to resist the desire to do it again to 'fix' the imbalances that crop up, especially if those imbalances rise as a result of an earlier fix.

It is one thing to adjust the initial role distribution before the game is underway - this is practically a neccesity in some cases - had I left it up to the first set of random roles in Vampire II, the seer, fool, baner and half the special roles all would have been part of the masons (Yes - the random number generator actually produced that set of results the first time I attempted role assignment. Needless to say, I scrapped that and rerolled a whole new set).

Once the game is already underway, the risk a misstep becomes far greater. I understand that a slow death march does not an exciting game make - but when one side has legitimately come into it under the rules and the rules themselves are not fatally flawed (see Hogwarts Havoc) then you are doing a distinct injustice to the hard work and effort that that team put into it; and Alarra getting the mason list, however 'lucky' or 'stupid' it may have been was just part of CWSOTTs' irritating ... but sadly for us quite successful plans for keeping under the radar and keeping the good campers suspicious of one another.

The werewolf team has to be able to master the unusual art of crowd control while at the same time somehow managing to keep their points dispersed enough to avoid suspicion of 'wolf-wagons' - and at the same time, somehow manage to participate in enough wagons not to be picked off for not helping. The job, frankly, ain't easy, and bonus scries make it that much harder. Any asset that introduces extra power uses into a game has to be considered carefully because statistically you have to assume most such will end up in the hands of the villagers; while in the early game since a scry item is more likely to be used on another villager (again, by the math) than a wolf, and thus is fairly balanced against the random factor of assignment, in the late game, when trust networks are swinging and the numbers have decreased, every extra scry is worth incrementally more to the villagers - and unless the wolves have done a stellar job in avoiding being found, the odds are still heavily favoring a villager getting the item. Recruitment is just as good, since you then add another villager from the unknown list to the safe list - and in the end game, every confirmed safe name is one villager closer to exposing the wolves.

Figuring out a reasonable balance for these two issues is, of course, the more difficult trick. Scry items that have to be used as soon as they're received is one good step. (I think this is already done in _this_ game). Another might be to only give out "extra" scries and recruits during events that occur while half or more of the playerbase is still alive; the random chance element balances out more effectively early on. Meh. This should probably go into Werewolf Central. Fool scries are another way to introduce uncertainty, especially if the player doesn't know if their free scry is the genuine McCoy or not beforehand. Again, the balance issues change when you have one or more wolves who don't scry as such, or when an illusionist/witch is in play (though this is a wild card unless said role is autoassigned to one side or the other by definition).

Predefined roles are generally easier to balance - the odds are good they'll be killed off over the course of play before endgame looms near; go through the various threads - by and large, you'll note the life of baners and seers is ... ahem ... often brutish and short; when a role is attached to a player from the start, the reasonable risk of eventual exposure makes the insertion less unbalancing than a random scry or bane. Does this mean one ought never use random scries or banes? Of course not! It does recommend to scarcity however.

Meh. My train of thought is actively derailing...