Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Rachel Lorelei]

more wands/ scrolls?

The Giamonk is spawned into existence with every wand and scroll it will never need growing out if its body, poking out of its stubbornness-thick hide.

[Sir Giacomo]

hey, a friend and i were having a debate, can you use telekinetic sphere to ddisarm a smoking bottle?

Well, if it would be akin to a telekinesis spell, yes. But as it is written, I'd say no. The spell apparently lets you float everything at once, but not independently within the spere.

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

The Giamonk...*can* work, but is very, very GM-dependent. Certain GMs will be very liberal in rules about purchasing items, and with how much gold they give out.

I personally think that builds that will work under more GMs are better because you'll actually get to play them more. Has Giacomo actually managed to find a GM that has allowed him to play a Giamonk as Giacomo intended?

I personally don't want to have to pray that the GM will include that Wand of Divine Power in the treasure pile or else it's like, "Oh joy...*another* level of adventuring without full BAB."

With most casters, even stingier GMs (that aren't out to get you) find it hard pressed to deny you most of your power. My Beguiler did wonders in a low-wealth campaign.

[Sir Giacomo]

Gia: Where are you getting 43200 for a custom item of mind blank? Going by the magic item creation guidelines, we have a level 8 spell with minimum CL 15 times 2000 base with a 1/2 modifier for duration. 8 * 15 * 2000 * 0.5 = 120,000 gp.

This would be what it would cost if it were a continously active item. In the case of a 1/day item, you apply the casterlvl x spelllvl x 1,800 divided by 5 cost.

- Giacomo

[AlterForm]

This would be what it would cost if it were a continously active item. In the case of a 1/day item, you apply the casterlvl x spelllvl x 1,800 divided by 5 cost.

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

This would be what it would cost if it were a continously active item. In the case of a 1/day item, you apply the casterlvl x spelllvl x 1,800 divided by 5 cost.

- Giacomo

It's nice, but what do you do if you get dispelled? The CL is only what...15? Very very flimsy protection.

[Rachel Lorelei]

I personally think that builds that will work under more GMs are better because you'll actually get to play them more. Has Giacomo actually managed to find a GM that has allowed him to play a Giamonk as Giacomo intended?

Giacomo's admitted that he has never actually played one of these.

If figure that's why he keeps insisting he can easily buy 10,000-20,000 gp wands a handful at a time without losing out on important items; the guy just hasn't played enough D&D to know better.


Edit: custom items, now? We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[Sir Giacomo]

The Giamonk...*can* work, but is very, very GM-dependent. Certain GMs will be very liberal in rules about purchasing items, and with how much gold they give out.

I personally think that builds that will work under more GMs are better because you'll actually get to play them more. Has Giacomo actually managed to find a GM that has allowed him to play a Giamonk as Giacomo intended?

I personally don't want to have to pray that the GM will include that Wand of Divine Power in the treasure pile or else it's like, "Oh joy...*another* level of adventuring without full BAB."

With most casters, even stingier GMs (that aren't out to get you) find it hard pressed to deny you most of your power. My Beguiler did wonders in a low-wealth campaign.

The point is that the core rules are built on the notion that you can buy items. Of course, in many campaigns DMs would want to handle that differently. But in that case, I would simply suggest a different fluff that fits the campaign better (as I already updated quite a time ago in the guide above).

For instance, the monk simply after gaining a level goes to his monastery to receive another girdle/prayer beads/tattoo whatever to signify is rising mastery of the fu/chi/whatever. These items then take the place of wands, and UMD skill (even cross-class) becomes something of a chi power, also needing to be activated, also fragile as wands, also having charges (partial or not, depending on DM).

I do not see big problems here.

Conversely, if a DM does not allow that he should then acknowledge that casters have a big advantage, since the rules assume that everyone has access to magic in one way or another. And to counter that advantage, he may impose more restrictions on magic, or give the non-casters different stuff (bonus tome of battle feats?).

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

It's nice, but what do you do if you get dispelled? The CL is only what...15? Very very flimsy protection.

Yep, that's the major drawback. But dispelling needs targeting, and at those levels that can be often quite difficult

- Giacomo

[Rachel Lorelei]

I do not see big problems here.

Only due to inexperience.

You realize that characters receive their wealth bit by bit, right? And that a 10th-level character buying two 4,500 GP wands isn't buyin a stat-booster, a ring of protection, and so on and so forth, right?

Characters constantly have to make decisions about their gear. Investing in expendable one-use items rather than upgradeable, continuous items is very resource-inefficient, and a character doing so would struggle constantly.

I haven't been reading the whole thread, since it's dull most of the time. Have you come up with a way to guarantee yourself the 3 or 4 rounds needed to buff up before every fight, no matter what the circumstances, yet?

Edit: apparently, you seriously think you can feasibly get through a game without being targeted.
(You can, but only if you hide from everything the whole time, which means you're not exactly helping the party much, are you?)

[Arbitrarity]

Gia: Where are you getting 43200 for a custom item of mind blank? Going by the magic item creation guidelines, we have a level 8 spell with minimum CL 15 times 2000 base with a 1/2 modifier for duration. 8 * 15 * 2000 * 0.5 = 120,000 gp.

He thinks it is "15*8*2000 /5 (1/day)", or 120*400, or 48000....

Or, he can look at the ONLY PUBLISHED ITEM which gives mind-blank, and we can wonder about that spell called dispel magic for this item.

[Frosty]

Yep, that's the major drawback. But dispelling needs targeting, and at those levels that can be often quite difficult

- Giacomo

I don't think it's as difficult as you say. There's a ton of ways to get Blindsight or other way to sense hiding creatures (hiding is generally subpar in 3.5, which I dislike). Tremorsense is also common, and hell, Detect Magic/Arcane Sight/Greater Arcane Sight won't reveal you, but it will reveal a magical aura, and the caster can always use Area Dispels.

I believe that in a standard wealth campaign, Giamonk is still difficult, because the GM will not necessarily give you exactly what you need. If you sell the loot, you'll only get half the value back, you see what I mean? Most GMs don't just hand over your wealth with pure gold.

I really *would* like the Giamonk if I knew with relative certainly that I will be getting enough LIQUID ASSETS to purchase what I want. But in my experience, you don't. That is not good for any character sure, but it screws over a lot more those characters that are highly item-dependent...like the Giamonk. This is also one of the reasons why Fighters suck as well.

In a high wealth, or even standard wealth but GM hands it all in GOLD to you and there are Magic Wal-Marts that has anything you want, then yeah...I think GIamonk can be fun and can work. And even then, you probably don't want to do this from level 1.

[Sir Giacomo]

Those tricks can be used with Planar sheperd as well. And Belt of battle, which can give a couple partial actions, or 1 full one each day, at the cost of a swift, pales in comparison to the sheperd, who can go 10 full rounds, complete with swift actions, to your 1, every round of every day. Even time stop and shapechange PALE in comparison to it.

Sounds convincing to me. OK, likely as a DM then I'd not allow these prestige classes (all of that is optional, anyhow).

Though I find it odd that you use two spells as the availability for non casters. Just sayin.

Aieeeh. Magic is available to all. Better to spellcasters, but still availalbe for all. Why is it so hard to accept that?
In the high levels we are talking about, magic in both casters and non-casters hands make combat incredibly difficult to predict. For all tactics, there are zillions of countertactics.
The casters have the advantage of more access and versatility to magic. Their disadvantage is that they have to cover so many weaknesses in the first place and avoid ever being hit by antimagic.

No. Pun Pun requires a creature which does not exist in Forgotten Realms.
It's either Dragonlance or Burning Sands, I forget which. And PS is from Eberron.

OK.

You begin casting. Wizard uses immediate action to cast celerity. Wizard eats you.

But he cannot cast in an AMF.

Easier methods are simply being something immune to ability damage.

Yes.

Further, 2 of your 3 solutions again, involve spellcasting.

No. Magic, yes, but not necessarily spellcasting.

You can't UMD everything in 1 round, you know.

Never maintained that.

Still, the spell can lay low CR 20 creatures, EASILY, in 1 casting.

1 full round attack in non-core can low CR 20 creatures. I showed even in core once that a fighter archer can low a CR 20 balor.

As a low level spell. That is a broken ability.

Yes, appears to be unbalanced, from what I see.

Again, that there are defenses doesn't stop it from being overpowered.

That should be the normal criterion. Otherwise a greatsword would be overpowered (if armour did not exist, I mean...).

The same could be applied to a polar ray, disintigrate, finger of death, etc etc. And an incantatrix can easily pick any of those. The defense against 1 will not defend against the other.

All are thwarted by total concealment or mirror image. Or AMF.

300 damage with 4 neg levels, or 20 negative levels, or 4 saves vs disintigration and 4 negative levels, or... well you get the point.It's easy to do with incantatrix. That's why metamagic abuse is called abuse.

Yes. But what I wonder is: aren't similarly horrible attacks available to non-casters outside core?

No, Island in time and Time stands still leave opponents able to act. For example, they can cast immediate action spells. They are fundamentally different from time stop in this regard. The upside is that you CAN affect your opponent, whereas with time stop, you cannot. There is a bit of give and take, you gain something, lose something else, it more or less balances.

Sounds OK.

Abilities such as the PS or Incantatrix's powers are all gain, no drawback, when compared to the closest similar thing. (Incantatrix closest thing is metamagic rods, which are expensive, limited in use, and only available for select Metamagic feats. Incantatrix is universal, less limited, and can be used with any metamagic feat. All benefit, no drawback.)

Yep, that sounds broken.

Mind blank is an 8th level spell. Power Word: Pain was listed as being broken at low levels. I'd say that 15th level qualifies as "not low".
Just saying. By the time you could reliably purchase a scroll of mind blank, even to UMD, Power Word: Pain is no longer a threat.

True!

Range is possible, though it's hard to get that after the spell is being cast. If you stay more than 30' back from any caster at low levels, just for fear of this spell, that says something.

Well, non-casters battling casters and knowing what they are doing are not exactly staying within that range. They do one of the following: either they make use of their good move to charge, or they do missile fire.

Concealment only works if its total. The spell allows no save. It requires no attack roll. It just deals a massive amount of damage at low levels. (2d6 per round for 4d4 rounds, if your HP are under 25, time drops as your HP go up).

And the wizard can use Leadership as well, for more wizards, with more companions. Every one from level 15 up can get 6 actions a round. Every one below that can have 4-5. All of these characters can have intelligent items, for additional actions as well. See? Everything you just described can be used by the mage, in addition to what he's doing. Now his small army has twice as many actions as your small army. At least.

Yes, but the wizard gets a penalty when trying to get a cohort alongside his AC. And I doubt that the DM will accord npcs to some pcs in the group, and not to others. Or more to some than to others. And again, the DM designs the npcs, not the player.

Only way I could have seen Mage slayers doing more is if they all used ToB as well as Eldariel did. If I'd gone Incantatrix or PS, it would not have mattered. Either one would have killed all three of them before they could even act. While they were still flat footed. Regardless of whether or not they had Dex to AC. Regardless of any buffs, abilities, or powers they had. 1 spell takes out any blink type effects, 1 spell negates AC, 1 spell kills. Planar sheperd gets 10 actions. So that's 3 per mage slayer.... 9 actions. Check. (to go first, begins combat with wild shape active, for dire tortoise form, ensuring a surprise round that he acts in, no matter what)
Incantatrix: Foresight/Greater Celerity prior to the 1st player's turn, after the match begins, For a full round action. With the Arcane Spellsurge already on, cast shapeshift (form immune to stunning), and a metamagicked time stop (maximize is my favorite). Drop the spell which negates blink effects, true seeing, and the like, off a scroll, if needed. Shapeshift into a choker. On last round of time stop, True strike(swift), and delay. Choose to go immediately when time stop ends. Use your 2 standard actions, blast one with the kill spell (95% kill rate), Time stop again. Repeat for slayer 2 and 3. All three die before they act. Yes. I could have done this. There's a reason I didn't. Whether they had greater blink, deathward, antimagic field, globe of invulnerability, spell immunity, or what have you up, the kill spell just changes. That's it.

And in turn, the defenses against what you do change. For instance, could you even detect the mageslayers in all instances? Would you know what kind of defenses they have or have put up? For instance, spell immunity or ring of counterspells: how could you find out what kind of spells they are protected against? You'd have to find out, costing you actions. And meanwhile, your three (actually I guess only 1 will put you under big pressure already) could also use time stop, belts of battle, shapechanging into chokers, surprise round tourtoises etc.

Listen checks will detect and pinpoint them. However, when there's 25 of them, you now have 25 pinpointed invisible targets. Think of it as a Mirror Image. The critters aren't there to be offense. They're there to confound non-magical detection. Magical detection was repeatedly foiled in the challenge.And, when they choose to use the ironclad strategies, the opponents don't even get a chance.

Well, all mageslayers will have some kind of spellcraft skill. So they'll realise where the guy with the spellcasting is. You could, however, silent the spell. Still- when you use concealment, so can the enemy.
My gut feeling says that even outside core, while there are likely quite a few unbalanced rules, there are countertactics aplenty.

WRONG. As there are many spells that block other spells, there are also many spells that hurt opponents. Many have different spells that are defended against. Having more spells either increases the number of spells your opponent must defend against (meaning he needs more spells to be successful), or allows the player to defend against more different offenses.
Name me one spell that protects from every one of the following spells: Orb of fire, Enervation, Acid fog, polar ray, disintigrate, power word kill, black tentacles.
Assuming Caster has a true seeing. Assume that if you have to roll a save, you roll a 1. In other words, stop every one of the above effects with one spell. If you can, then you have a point about spell versatility not being important.

Wall of Force. But I guess that was already said above. For the poorer UMD wand users, resilient sphere will do.
The eversmoking bottle and a good moved silent move action also helps.
Or, for that matter, a non-magic way: hide (true seeing does not help here).
Would you now say that I have a point about spell versatility not being important?

To which, short of Pun-Pun, full casters can win. See above.They aren't "always more powerful", true. But they DO have a higher power threshold, and, at high levels of optimization, the ability to kill almost anything at high levels, before it even has an action. The same cannot be said for non-casters.

But it can. The time stop, teleport, AMF combo is particularly devastating in the hands of non-casters, since they still shine in an AMF. Foresight only prevents the surprise round, but the surprise round never even materialises in a time stop. And the moment the AMF goes off, foresight is suppressed.

In other words, there is a point in optimization where Casters can attain a power level that noncasters simply do not and cannot reach. That level is the ability to remove 95% of the luck from the game, making almost any roll irrelevant, and the ones that aren't, succeed on a 2 or better... Before the opponent acts.

Hmmm. That kind of thing may be possible outside core. But only for casters? I will not dare continue to comment on that. Just voice a healthy doubt.

- Giacomo

[Arakune]

Hey Giacomo, I will drop any issue with the topic since for me it's getting stupid (I can't convince you, you can't convince me, repeat ad infinitum). But guess what, if you want a playtest of your monk I can set something up (the Talic adventure got some troubles since Solo was banned).

I can roll a quick adventure at each friday if you want. It's not an adventure per se, but an "escape this situation" kind of adventure. Things already happened and you must work out your situation. It's up from only one to 4 man party. (If you want to go solo, you may have an henchman with max level equal 16th or your own level).

What about it?

[Sir Giacomo]

Only due to inexperience.

You realize that characters receive their wealth bit by bit, right? And that a 10th-level character buying two 4,500 GP wands isn't buyin a stat-booster, a ring of protection, and so on and so forth, right?

Characters constantly have to make decisions about their gear. Investing in expendable one-use items rather than upgradeable, continuous items is very resource-inefficient, and a character doing so would struggle constantly.

That is what you continue to maintain, although I have explained and shown it already so many times. I even posted detailed builds level 1-20 to show how well it works to have some of your wbl go to permanent items (of which the monk needs less than others), and some to charged items.

I haven't been reading the whole thread, since it's dull most of the time.

And this appears to be the reason why you still pose these questions.

Have you come up with a way to guarantee yourself the 3 or 4 rounds needed to buff up before every fight, no matter what the circumstances, yet?

Yes, way up in the guide. Short summary:
- concealment (like that from the eversmoking bottle)
- high move (controlling the encounter)
- good spot/listen/hide/move silently (controlling the encounter)
- and, btw, of course 3 or 4 rounds of buffing will almost never be necessary. The key buff is enlarge person, and that takes one standard action to activate (get a potion at lower levels in case you cannot apply any method to get more UMD buff time).

Edit: apparently, you seriously think you can feasibly get through a game without being targeted.

????? When I say that total concealment is a good defense vs many, many spells, it does not mean that the joker monk always has total concealment up.

(You can, but only if you hide from everything the whole time, which means you're not exactly helping the party much, are you?)

And there goes the rogue...thanks for playing with us.

- Giacomo

[mostlyharmful]

I haven't read through all of this, so forgive me if this has been brought up already, but the Cosmopolitan feat, combined with a monk 15/sorc 5 with Ascetic Mage would be a pretty viable way to run this kind of build. That would make UMD a class skill (with a +2), and also give an incentive to have a high Cha.

The problem is that the Gonk idea is centred around Core-only, which isn't always a bad thing but meh.

I'm running a midlevel campaign at the moment which includes a BBEGs Dragon using the Gonk as a basis, I've included cosmopolitan and a level of cleric and it works very well to annoy the PCs without endangering any of them and always getting away. It's quite a lot of fun to run to be honest, but I'd only ever consider it as an NPC with a fluff reason to have access to stupendous amounts of consumables. I named her Lady Giasamore in honour of this thread.

[Frosty]

(You can, but only if you hide from everything the whole time, which means you're not exactly helping the party much, are you?)

And there goes the rogue...thanks for playing with us.

- Giacomo

The Rogue *does* kinda suck, Giacomo. You're right, the Rogue and Monk are in the same boat. Rogues sort of suck in combat, and they shine more in skill-usage (or they would if magic can't do everything)

[Rachel Lorelei]

That is what you continue to maintain, although I have explained and shown it already so many times. I even posted detailed builds level 1-20 to show how well it works to have some of your wbl go to permanent items (of which the monk needs less than others), and some to charged items.

That's what everybody with actual play experience continues to maintain, because it's true.

What you've shown is a build spending WBL at each level, which uses partially charged wands (I can hardly believe you're still clinging to such an outlandish idea) and doesn't take replacing them into account. It doesn't even determine which wands it buys when, just allocates seemingly random amounts of money to the "wand budget" (amounts which are insufficient for the 4th-level and 3rd-level wands you talk about).

The "wand budget" in your original post absolutely does not come even remotely close to reflecting your posts in the thread itself, in which your primary answer to any problem seems to be "wand of X!" (which you of course just happen to have already used before the encounter, along with all the others).

Yes, way up in the guide. Short summary:
- concealment (like that from the eversmoking bottle)

This doesn't guarantee you buff rounds, much less ones during which you're not noticed.

- high move (controlling the encounter)

What about the rest of your party? How does this guarantee you pre-encounter buff rounds (since buffing for more than one round while everyone else is fighting is pretty lame--okay, seriously lame)?

- good spot/listen/hide/move silently (controlling the encounter)

At least you've finally admitted your monk won't be able to jump and tumble for most of his career (you get the minimum +14 tumble when? Being able to jump matters at level 20 when everyone's flying?).
But being able to spot and hide don't magically translate into always having buff time. You seem to think every encounter happens with the party walking along, the scouts far ahead of them, and every so often the scouts come back and say "okay, buff up now!" and then the party rushes madly to get into range (since they were buffing up out of hearing range) before their short-term buffs are up.
If I need to tell you why this is completely unrealistic, well... let's just say that I think you know it is, because I don't think that even in your games (you do play D&D, yes?) this happens on a regular basis.

- and, btw, of course 3 or 4 rounds of buffing will almost never be necessary. The key buff is enlarge person, and that takes one standard action to activate (get a potion at lower levels in case you cannot apply any method to get more UMD buff time).

Your monk with only Enlarge Person up is pretty terrible. There's a reason you talk about all these wands all the time.

And there goes the rogue...thanks for playing with us.

- Giacomo

Does the rogue in your games really sit out encounters by hiding through them? In mine she's usually in the thick of it, contribute. The core-only rogue suffers a bit, but still doesn't just sit fights out; the very idea is laughable

Hiding for most of an encounter (unless it's something that both will target you and is particularly deadly to you) means you should be kicked out of the party; it's not a good tactic.

[ericgrau]

So you'd rather have 169 1-page threads? Thumbs down.

Get used to it, this is a popular topic. More threads about it will just clog up the front page.

Naw, just split into threads of length & focus limited such that people can actually read them. The main flaw I am referring to is the original post, which IMO is a rather poor guide. This thread should be limited to only discussing that guide, not the end-all be-all place to discuss monks in general (except as it relates to the guide).

I'll bet there are only 1-3 monk topics being debated here at the moment, and that's all that would be on the main page. The others would be on the 3rd to 20th page after being abandoned. Much easier to keep the discussion relevant that way too.

OTOH when people (not everyone, but some) just want a place to throw out a stream of random thoughtless comments, these threads provide a good landfill for the garbage. Maybe the problem is self-fixing? Or maybe it's still a problem b/c it doesn't distinguish between good and bad, and everything ends up in the garbage heap.

[Sir Giacomo]

1- Interesting, now tell me why a spell that says I'm never surprised let's someone sneaking behind me and taking me be *gasp* surprise! And I doubt you can use your ring of superior invisibility inside the AMF. Even if it does, it will work like this: you get closer, the foresight warn "DANGER, get out of where you are!" -> Celerity -> Get out and see either you or nothing at all (in this case thinking the enemy is invisible is obvious for an 20+ int char) and the mayhem begins (by that I mean, the non-caster is already dead if that wasn't clear enough).

The problem is the spell that says you are never surprised is a spell and gets instantly suppressed the moment the time stop ends by the AMF.

2- See 1. Also, the enervation of doom are the weakest one. What about orbs of doom? Do HP damage, dazes, pass the AMF?

Eversmoking bottle.

3- Globe of invulnerability is useless for meele combatants. For ranged attacks there's wind wall and/or protection from arrows. Or iron guard. Or anything else. Suppose your monk at 16th level throws lot's of shurikens: that's +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 base, more with high Dex, and mediocre damage unless you have high Str too (1d2 + Str mod for standard shurikens).
Suppose and Dex 20, Str 20: +17/+17+/+17/+12/+7, 1d2 + 5 damage.
Congratulations, you managed to be 5 times useless in the same round because of a second level spell that the wizard can/will have prepared. If the monk have magic shurikens (say, +4), then you need a third level spell to make your tactics useless. And there is the default blur, displacement, etc that can you the wizard hard to hit. There are many other ways, but these are the most common.

True, the monk should better get some sai of returning and seeking with quickdraw in this situation. Wind wall only partly helps vs thrown weapons. And do not forget that a divine power would increase the number of thrown weapons to 6/round, at +3 damage from STR increase each. In this case, though, a monk would simply run through the wind wall and grapple.

4- The only problem with the arms race against non-casters and casters is the the non-caster are at huge disadvantage, something you conveniently ignore.

Yep, I ignore it conveniently because it is also correct to do so: there is no huge disadvantage for the non-casters in this arms race, because
- they have more permanent abilities that the casters first have to emulate to even keep up and
- they can focus on getting with items/npcs/UMD those few power spells that shut down hundreds of possbile enemy spells of spellcasters.

5- Attacking spells are not the best a wizard can do. The best a wizard can do is to gather information via divination spells, know what to do with days of advance, do his job with minimal risk and profit. In the unlikely chance of being caught by "surprise", he have enough defenses dispose any treat that's not another full caster.

Now THAT is something I wholeheartedly concede. Mind blank stops most of this, but still, it is a big caster advantage. The party usually also goes to the npc caster seer to get info about that fabled BBEG/dungeon/opponent and not to the local barbarian.

6- No, outside of core you can have 1-3 non-casters builds that annoy the DM. Things like the Dungeon-Crasher, the Trip-Lock figther, the Uber-Charger. But with only core you already can break the game with spell sets (build? not so much with only very few PrC).

In core? Nope, you cannot break the game there. Only if you go to extreme lenghts to misinterpret the power of some spells (gate, astral projection, etc.).

7- Your logic is flawed in this regard: if you are allowing leadership to non-casters, then why full casters can't have it? And if all your cohorts/cohortsxN are full casters, then it's more a race of "who have the most powerful full caster". Let's say the mini-army of full casters cancel each other, now it's the "original" full caster vs the non-caster. Back to square one. Also, leadership just give a, albeit less powerful, a full caster with all his spells for FREE. Let's say it again: FREE, where the familiar are using the caster own spells, own items, own WBL to become usable.

Full casters can have leadership, but they receive a penalty for the cohort. And a DM usually will only allow 1 npc per pc, I guess - or he simply has too much work at hand.
It is simply unfair to say, some classes get npcs to help them, and some don't, because the rules list what they could do in one case alongside their class description, in the other case alongside other entries (feats, or skills, or spells). Come on- You cannot discriminate between players only because of editing design of the PHB, can you?

8- Gust of wind? Shatter the eversmoking bottle? Black tentacles in the middle of the ever smoking bottle area effect? cloud kill? acid fog? incendiary fog? web? any combination of above? And god help you if you try to go away from that ever smoking hiding shell, and be facing lot's of monsters with readied actions and a wizard with more at your face?

- Gust of wind- only disperses the smoke IN ITS AREA for 1 round, not the whole 100ft diamater+ smoke cloud. Pls read the joker monk FAQ above.
- black tentacles? Will not cover the whole area, and only on the ground, and who knows where the non-caster has gone after activating the bottle?
- similarly: cloudkill, acid fog, incendiary fog, web: all of these spells cover a much smaller area than the fog and would only with big luck happen to capture the joker monk.
- and where are "lots of monsters" coming from? From summon monsters? That takes 1 round to case, during which the joker monk can emerge from the smoke and smack the caster. Or better yet, simply wait them out (they are only 1 round/lvl). Plus, the area of the smoke is so vast, it will take some time for the monsters to surround the smoke everywhere (also from above, the monk could simply fly out!).

------------------------------------------------------

And how long it last again most of the UMD effects outside the combat again? Not so much. Things that may be useful, like a wand of mage armor, cost too much for what a simple armor can make. And since you can't 'take 10' in a UMD check, you actually need to roll to see if you can use the wand. You said a +0 zero is enough? Let's see:

Wand of mage armor: 11 int min, wand DC (20), CL1 use: pretty good and last quite long.
UMD checks: 20 to use wand -> 5%. Good luck with that one.

It's activated in 20 rounds on average. No big luck needed. Get several in case you roll a "1" with one.

Scroll if mage armor: 11 int min, scroll DC (21), CL1
UMD check: 21 to use scroll, Never can activate it OR same as the wand use if the DM rule that nat 20 is always a success.

Why should a get a scroll of mage armour if I can have the same with a wand that is activated more easily?

Now, you didn't show anything because no one agreed that you can use an MW UMD tool, or even if you can use, you can have a MW UMD tool that can be used at all times. An alchemist lab is a MW tool, but hardly you can carry it with you, or use it in a rush.

"No one agreed?" Sure, you can always houserule such an item does not exist. A wholeheartedly welcome any DM telling me that such items do not exist in his campaign. But then I also kindly tell him that there will be a slight imbalance in his game since many fix DCs implicitly assume that characters have access to +2 circumstance bonuses - including UMD.

I understand that using magic items to enhance your usefulness is good, but frankly, if you want that buff, ask you party wizard. You will run out of money fast, the thing can explode in your head, when you really need it you can fumble...

True, fellow pc casting is the best! And cheapest buff. But what if that caster is not around? What if he does not have that spell?
But you'll notice from the pearls of power in my joker monk build that I allowed for pc caster buffing.

And last, if a non-caster can use it, a full-caster already abused it. Just think about it.

And if a pc full caster wants to use it, an npc full-caster already has abused it. Just think about that...

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Hey Giacomo, I will drop any issue with the topic since for me it's getting stupid (I can't convince you, you can't convince me, repeat ad infinitum). But guess what, if you want a playtest of your monk I can set something up (the Talic adventure got some troubles since Solo was banned).

I can roll a quick adventure at each friday if you want. It's not an adventure per se, but an "escape this situation" kind of adventure. Things already happened and you must work out your situation. It's up from only one to 4 man party. (If you want to go solo, you may have an henchman with max level equal 16th or your own level).

What about it?

Hmm. Sounds interesting. Depends a bit on the other challenges lined up (there are two wizard duels vs the joker monk, and the grappling contest rages still elsewhere). Plus, it's normally difficult for me to find the time on Fridays.
What level will it be? Sounds like level 20 or some such, which is plagued with so many other influences it is hard to see the strength of a particular class in core.

- Giacomo

[Skjaldbakka]

Umm, actually, rogues rock in combat, if built to rock in combat. They have some problems with crit-immune foes, so they kinda suck in my campaigns at high level (as a DM, I'm somewhat biased towards NPCs, undead, and demons, 2/3 of which are immune to rogues either from heavy fort or being undead).

A melee focused rogue with 2WF is one of the highest damage output builds in core. When he's not fighting sneak attack immune things.

[Frosty]

Umm, actually, rogues rock in combat, if built to rock in combat. They have some problems with crit-immune foes, so they kinda suck in my campaigns at high level (as a DM, I'm somewhat biased towards NPCs, undead, and demons, 2/3 of which are immune to rogues either from heavy fort or being undead).

A melee focused rogue with 2WF is one of the highest damage output builds in core. When he's not fighting sneak attack immune things.

d6 dice, light armor only. Must front-line and be in the thick of things. Heavy feats investment so you don't have other goodies. See anything wrong there? I don't mind glass cannons if they can at least do it from range and can fly out of reach. And the fact he *must* sneak attack to do damage is just eww.

Give me a Power-attacking 2-hander anyday, or even a limited caster.

[Sir Giacomo]

That's what everybody with actual play experience continues to maintain, because it's true.

And you are the one to define the threshold of "actual play experience". OK.

What you've shown is a build spending WBL at each level, which uses partially charged wands (I can hardly believe you're still clinging to such an outlandish idea) and doesn't take replacing them into account.

Rachel Lorelei, this is not an "outlandish" idea, but it is in the rules. DMG p. 199. We all agreed on that after Lord Silvanos gave a salomonic decision on this. For higher level pc creation, partially wands are RAW.
And it takes replacing them into account, please check again the level 1-20 build.

It doesn't even determine which wands it buys when, just allocates seemingly random amounts of money to the "wand budget" (amounts which are insufficient for the 4th-level and 3rd-level wands you talk about).

And I have shown repeatedly that the wand budget is more than enough.

The "wand budget" in your original post absolutely does not come even remotely close to reflecting your posts in the thread itself, in which your primary answer to any problem seems to be "wand of X!" (which you of course just happen to have already used before the encounter, along with all the others).

You see, this is exactly the way the wand budget should be handled: flexibly. The joker monk build is intended to be adapted by everyone wishing to use it for what he/she feels is needed most.
A character in lvl 1-20 will NEVER have to face ALL challenges ever designed in the monster manual or traps or npcs or spells in all imaginable combinations. Most campaigns have a certain focus. Or are full of houserules. And you should choose your wands accordingly.
Additionally, campaigns are highly different from duels, a situation a lot of posters critical of the joker monk hinted at. In those cases, once again, the kinds of wands chosen will be different.
Some major wands or buff spells that will often be chosen are explained in the guide.
By level 10, you can cast 1st level spell a THOUSAND times. This means basically you can have ALL 1st level spells available to you, if you so wish.

This doesn't guarantee you buff rounds, much less ones during which you're not noticed.

Let us say it improves the chances of getting buff rounds. Everything else can only be shown in actual play.

What about the rest of your party? How does this guarantee you pre-encounter buff rounds (since buffing for more than one round while everyone else is fighting is pretty lame--okay, seriously lame)?

What exactly makes you think that the same party would then accept their own spellcasters using time to buff (themselves or others)?

At least you've finally admitted your monk won't be able to jump and tumble for most of his career (you get the minimum +14 tumble when? Being able to jump matters at level 20 when everyone's flying?).

? That is not what I have said. I have said that I never maintained the joker monk will always have total concealment up. He can tumble and jump to his heart's content much earlier than level 20. Come on, Rachel Lorelei, you are getting desperate here.

But being able to spot and hide don't magically translate into always having buff time. You seem to think every encounter happens with the party walking along, the scouts far ahead of them, and every so often the scouts come back and say "okay, buff up now!" and then the party rushes madly to get into range (since they were buffing up out of hearing range) before their short-term buffs are up.

Er..yes. This is the way a party should move in a highly dangerous, unknown terrain, if they wish to survive. This is usually taught by gaming experience.

If I need to tell you why this is completely unrealistic, well... let's just say that I think you know it is, because I don't think that even in your games (you do play D&D, yes?) this happens on a regular basis.

It does. Depending on how time critical the attacking is, the buffing can happen in the surprise round and then the attack ensues (so no moving outside of listen range).

Your monk with only Enlarge Person up is pretty terrible. There's a reason you talk about all these wands all the time.

Look up the grappling contest set up by Talic here. You'll be amazed how powerful a level 6 monk devoted to grappling with only enlarge person up is.

Does the rogue in your games really sit out encounters by hiding through them? In mine she's usually in the thick of it, contribute. The core-only rogue suffers a bit, but still doesn't just sit fights out; the very idea is laughable

In the thick of it? With d6 hit points? Does not sound advisable, although some rogues will be able to do that (monks can even better). But normally those classes with the great spot/hide/listen/move silently class skill set combo like ranger, rogue and monk, should make full use of that.

Hiding for most of an encounter (unless it's something that both will target you and is particularly deadly to you) means you should be kicked out of the party; it's not a good tactic.

Well, if the rogue or monk hid for most of the encounter, and then downed the BBEG when that guy let his guard down, the party will be VERY grateful, I can tell you.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

The problem is that the Gonk idea is centred around Core-only, which isn't always a bad thing but meh.

I'm running a midlevel campaign at the moment which includes a BBEGs Dragon using the Gonk as a basis, I've included cosmopolitan and a level of cleric and it works very well to annoy the PCs without endangering any of them and always getting away. It's quite a lot of fun to run to be honest, but I'd only ever consider it as an NPC with a fluff reason to have access to stupendous amounts of consumables. I named her Lady Giasamore in honour of this thread.

While I notice the irony, I like the idea. Thanks!

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

My own play experience would not have seen a successful Giamonk. Mostly we just don't get disposable wealth to the extent that we can buy stuff willy-nilly.

[Sir Giacomo]

As any physics teacher would say, it's all relative. Leadership, as you know, is extremely powerful, and a familiar pales in comparison. However, a familiar in itself is quite powerful. Amazing, wildshape and shapechange follow the same general idea! Gasp!

Well, due to the share spells stuff, I doubt that a familiar "pales in comparison" to a cohort provided by leadership.
Similarly, wildshape provides those massive size, STR, DEX boosts that morph also provides (albeit slightly higher, but shorter duration).
They are not the same, but all are in the same league, definitely.
Leadership allows the player extra actions, an actively played familiar allows extra actions. Extra actions that could, in both cases, mean additional 9th level effects taking place.

Wrong. You argue that all (Core) classes are balanced (You actually used 'stuff', might want to change the wording a tad) . As I've said, PACKAGE DEAL. You get the wizard, you get the familiar. Do not throw universal feats (Such as Leadership, effective for ALL CLASSES) in to the picture when you compare classes. And likewise, do not deny the wizard his own class benefit, because that would be gimping the wizard, who, according to your 'balance' theory, DOES NOT REQUIRE GIMPING. Of course, most of us don't agree that classes are balanced, and that familiars do become an issue when extra actions become available to an already powerful class.

You create an artifiical, PHB editing-led line between "class abilities" (what is written in the class section) and "universal feats" (written in a separate section). Does it not occur to you that by that logic, a wizard could not cast spells - since the spells are described elsewhere?
Everyone gets feats as part of their "PACKAGE DEAL". You cannot compare the classes isolated with only what is written in their class description. But with what that player gets on his character sheet when he/she plays.
It does not matter at all where the player gets his extra npc from. If he gets one, but the other doesn't, it's simply unfair.

Class ability. Druids have it too. Rangers too. Sorcerers too. Paladins too. And in non-core, partial arcane casters do too. As a feat. Which is not leadership (Obtain Familiar). Again, package deal, and a universal feat such as Leadership (Able to be taken by any class) is not making things fair and square. You claim that I am inconsistent? My entire argument can be summed up in two words. Yours is that

A. Extra characters are unfair
B. If a character comes with a companion, Leadership should be an option to any classes that don't.

I'm sorry, if I have a squirt gun when you only have a water balloon, taking out a garden hose is hardly being 'fair'.

Your mistake is that you draw this artificial line, where there isn't any when it comes to class balance. I am not taking out a garden hose in your example, but also a water balloon. The DM designs my cohort, he'll do it in such a way not to surpass the familiar or paladin's mount or whatever.

Again, you are stating that Leadership is more powerful. And yet you're giving it to a class that is, by your theory, 'balanced' compared to another? Inconsistent, you are. If a monk needs Leadership just to trump a wizard's familiar, obviously something needs to be sorted out.

I am not stating that leadership is more powerful. And I am not giving it to a class, it is part of the game.
And if all that is necessary to balance an actively played familiar or companion or whatever of a character is to get the leadership feat, then that's entirely OK - and nothing needs to be sorted out.

Comparing cohort and familiar:
- familiar is around from lvl 1, cohort at earliest from level 6. Advantage familiar.
- familiar gets share spells, cohort not, advantage familiar.l
- familiar provides alertness, while it receives a bunch of other goodies, advantage familiar
- familiar is gained from class levels, cohort costs a feat. Advantage famiilar
- familiar has lowish hp, cohort likely more - can also help in combat better. Advantage cohort.
- familiar dies, caster loses XP. Advantage cohort.
- cohort CAN (DM's choice!) be a full spell caster. Advantage cohort.

- Giacomo

[Skjaldbakka]

d6 dice, light armor only. Must front-line and be in the thick of things. Heavy feats investment so you don't have other goodies. See anything wrong there?

I don't see anything wrong with dealing +60d6 dice of damage, since the last 20d6 are unlikely to reliably connect, and your d6 HD balances out your high damage dealing capacity. The rogue is one of the best balanced classed in the game. But thats not what this thread is about.

[Frosty]

good luck reliably being able to sneak attack at level 19 or 20. I'll prefer damage that doesn't rely on Flanking or being invisible (and the monster has no see invisible).

No matter your damage output, I would not go front-lining with a d6 HD.

[dman11235]

This...is a joke thread...right? Right?