Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

[EvilElitest]

@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?

Because you always bring it up, and i always have to remind you why it works this way. It is like in every vs. thread you forget the particular details that were covered ages ago

1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.

We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

As for unholy magic, Soth uses D&D unholy. Do i need to remind what unholy does to undead

2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.

Ok, you should know better, this point get is own group of replies
2a) ME is not a low magic setting, you've made this claim, Rowan has throughly rebuked this claim, stop doing this. ME is a not a flashy setting. It isn't an openly magical setting. It is still a mid magic level setting, it is just more subtle than something like Warcraft, but no less powerful.
2B) Dragonlance is a mid level setting, and Soth isn't a full caster
2C) your fooling yourself. In a one on one fight, Soth might debatable have a chance, but in sheer numbers, the WK will crush him. Soth has a small elite undead army, and the Blue Dragon army (if he gets that, then the Wk gets Sauron's army, just not Sauron i think the OP said), he just can't make it. Remember, living dragons are not immune to fear, despair, corruption, posion, Black Breath, or the Morgul Blades. the Wk just needs to shoot one

3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.

Such as?.......

4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.

You have no evidence to back this up. Ignoring the fact that Devils and Demons actually can't hurt each other easily (you need good to over come their DR, because WotC is badly organized), we no what unholy does to undead. It heals them. That is a rule, in both D&D and dragon lance, unholy helps undead. You throw the Wk in the negative energy plane, he is fine. He is even more power (granted so is Soth). Through ether of them into hte positive energy plane, well then they are both screwed

look up the rules on negative engery plane and undead, in D&D that is where undead come from.

now unholy can hurt living evil people your right (I think actually, i have to double check) but not undead

1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.

1) You right, it is a spell, but that means it works as a counter spell (IE soth has to over come the WK's will to get rid of it)
2) Actually, your wrong, the nazgul aren't every hit by the fire, they just leave on their own, they shanked Frodo, why hang around
Also unholy heals undead
3) I said stun doesn't work on undead. you can't stun ether soth or the Wk
edit
Oh your right, i'm sorry. Correction, stun can't work on undead. They are immune

EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.

1) ME isn't a low magic setting
2) D&D isn't a setting, it is a rule design. Dragon lance is low mid magic, FR is mid high magic, Ebberon is high high magic
3) The sword of Truth would have no effect on the WK at all. Do you know why? Because it only hurts liars remember in King of Shannara? It doesn't work on the demons because they know they are evil unholy beings. The warlock Lord is a living illusion and so the power of truth destorys them. It is the idea of absolute truth
4) Already showed you Frostmourns stats
5) Just because something a weapon comes from a high magic setting does not give it some sort of free card to let it over come cannon powers. It needs a justified basis

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass
2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical
3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to
4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after
5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

@ Ummm... what is so invalid about this card? What gives you the divine right to rebuke it?

Because you always bring it up, and i always have to remind you why it works this way. It is like in every vs. thread you forget the particular details that were covered ages ago

1) This is not the setting of Tolkiens world, so while weapons from his setting may not affect the WK, powerful weapons from other settings may be effective. Epic weapons from other settings I am quite confident can overcome the WK's protection. We have no evidence that unholy weapons will not work on him because he is not against any unholy force.

We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

As for unholy magic, Soth uses D&D unholy. Do i need to remind what unholy does to undead

2) Yes, it can. I'm not saying it can't. However, D&D is a high magic setting, ME is low magic. From what I've seen, heard, and what I know, WK doesn't stand a chance against Soth.

Ok, you should know better, this point get is own group of replies
2a) ME is not a low magic setting, you've made this claim, Rowan has throughly rebuked this claim, stop doing this. ME is a not a flashy setting. It isn't an openly magical setting. It is still a mid magic level setting, it is just more subtle than something like Warcraft, but no less powerful.
2B) Dragonlance is a mid level setting, and Soth isn't a full caster
2C) your fooling yourself. In a one on one fight, Soth might debatable have a chance, but in sheer numbers, the WK will crush him. Soth has a small elite undead army, and the Blue Dragon army (if he gets that, then the Wk gets Sauron's army, just not Sauron i think the OP said), he just can't make it. Remember, living dragons are not immune to fear, despair, corruption, posion, Black Breath, or the Morgul Blades. the Wk just needs to shoot one

3) Maybe so, but he has plenty of other tricks up his sleeves.

Such as?.......

4) Evil can harm evil, undead can harm undead, devils war with demons, it is not entirely impossible for Soth to use unholy energies to harm unholy beings. Besides, it's possible to kill someone with too much of something. Toss a living guy in the plane of negative energy, he dies. Toss another guy into the plane of positive energy... he explodes of having too much life, and then dies.

You have no evidence to back this up. Ignoring the fact that Devils and Demons actually can't hurt each other easily (you need good to over come their DR, because WotC is badly organized), we no what unholy does to undead. It heals them. That is a rule, in both D&D and dragon lance, unholy helps undead. You throw the Wk in the negative energy plane, he is fine. He is even more power (granted so is Soth). Through ether of them into hte positive energy plane, well then they are both screwed

look up the rules on negative engery plane and undead, in D&D that is where undead come from.

now unholy can hurt living evil people your right (I think actually, i have to double check) but not undead

1) The barrier was dispelled when Merry cut through. I'm not sure it is natural anyway.
2) Yet his ring wraiths get hit with normal fire and run off the building in panic. Yeah... You wonder how effective unholy fire will be?
3) ... What? To be honest, your sentences are getting more and more difficult to understand. No offense. You said stun works on undead. Advantage Soth... even further.

1) You right, it is a spell, but that means it works as a counter spell (IE soth has to over come the WK's will to get rid of it)
2) Actually, your wrong, the nazgul aren't every hit by the fire, they just leave on their own, they shanked Frodo, why hang around
Also unholy heals undead
3) I said stun doesn't work on undead. you can't stun ether soth or the Wk
edit
Oh your right, i'm sorry. Correction, stun can't work on undead. They are immune

EE, with all due respect, you are applying one worlds laws in another. D&D is a high magic setting, ME is a low magic setting. I can name plenty of epic non-holy weapons that can likely overcome the WKs protection. The Sword of Truth (From the Sword of Truth series) can burn right through the WK's shield since it is perhaps one of the most powerful weapons in fantasy. Frostmourne is a chaotic weapon capable of passing through divine armor (And more importantly, invincibility cheats). My point, when we take magic weapons from high magic settings and face a guy from a low magic setting invulnerable to weapons in said setting, we can't just say he'll be immune to the newer more stronger weapons.

1) ME isn't a low magic setting
2) D&D isn't a setting, it is a rule design. Dragon lance is low mid magic, FR is mid high magic, Ebberon is high high magic
3) The sword of Truth would have no effect on the WK at all. Do you know why? Because it only hurts liars remember in King of Shannara? It doesn't work on the demons because they know they are evil unholy beings. The warlock Lord is a living illusion and so the power of truth destorys them. It is the idea of absolute truth
4) Already showed you Frostmourns stats
5) Just because something a weapon comes from a high magic setting does not give it some sort of free card to let it over come cannon powers. It needs a justified basis

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass
2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical
3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to
4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after
5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him.

Well, "specifically", it says “No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..." This says nothing about other weapons not being capable of hurting him, just that they wouldn't hurt him as much. I know I've quoted this exact line in several of the other threads you keep talking about this stuff being decided in so long ago. The matter of other "magic" weapons' effects on the WK isn't addressed at any point as nobody else ever actually manages to hit him that we get to hear about. At best, there isn't enough data to say what can and can't bypass whatever protections the WK has going for him (beyond the Barrow Blades, of course). You're entitled to your opinion, but it's unsporting to state it as fact. It's not like this quotation was even hard to find (I Googled "no other blade" and "bitter" and it was available in the first link along with several of the other results). Sure, the Barrow Blades were anti-Mordor/Angmar, but the elf-made swords (like Sting and Glamdring) were anti-Morgoth/orcs. Are you saying that you'll allow "holy" weapons from other settings but not ones from the same setting that were targeted towards a bigger evil? That would approach the argument that "nothing can hurt him unless it's specifically made for that and since other settings don't take that into account, he's immune from everything. Nyah nyah " which none of us like in our vs. threads.

Anyway, I dislike the categories of "high magic" and "low magic". ME is definitely a setting where magic is not easily accessible (in the form of casting "spells" at least, artificing is fairly common as the Elves pretty much get it as a natural skill). What is present tends to be very strong, but just about any other modern fantasy setting that has magic at all will have much more of it floating around (especially since, in my experience, the protagonist(s) tend to have access to it; especially any fantasy that's been influenced by D&D). Instead of 2 or 3 characters in the entire setting being noteworthy magicians you end up with dozens if not hundreds or thousands. A matter of quantity, but not necessarily quality. However, just as flashy != powerful, it's also true to say flashy != weak. Impressiveness and strength are independent qualities here and there's no real reason to say that somebody from a non-ME setting couldn't theoretically overpower something from ME.

That said, I don't know anything about Soth, so I can't comment on the weapons at his disposal specifically.

[EvilElitest]

That said, I don't know anything about Soth, so I can't comment on the weapons at his disposal specifically.[/QUOTE]

[WalkingTarget]

That said, I don't know anything about Soth, so I can't comment on the weapons at his disposal specifically.[/QUOTE]

I take it this is either a rather badly botched response (wherein your actual reply got lost somehow) or an attempt to discredit everything else I said in the preceding post by pointing out a gap in my knowledge on Soth.

If the latter, I don't see how not knowing much about Dragonlance/Ravenloft has any effect on comments made about something out of Tolkien. You said that "no other type of weapon could hurt" the Witch-king and I pointed out that this is not a statement that is supported by the source material despite your repeated attempts to present it as such. I'm pointing out a flaw in your argument, not claiming victory for either competitor.

Edit @v - That's alright then. I dunno, maybe just a server hiccup as you posted? I generally always do a "preview post" to try to avoid weird stuff like that.

[EvilElitest]

I take it this is either a rather badly botched response (wherein your actual reply got lost somehow) or an attempt to discredit everything else I said in the preceding post by pointing out a gap in my knowledge on Soth.

If the latter, I don't see how not knowing much about Dragonlance/Ravenloft has any effect on comments made about something out of Tolkien. You said that "no other type of weapon could hurt" the Witch-king and I pointed out that this is not a statement that is supported by the source material despite your repeated attempts to present it as such. I'm pointing out a flaw in your argument, not claiming victory for either competitor.

no the former, i had a very long response, i'll try to bring it back. Why did only the last thing show up then?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

These forums have been pretty bad lately...

Mr. Scaly, my good friend

1) Light is basically your stay at home badass

Whereas a truly evil Eragon would be a 'go out and destroy' badass.

2) Basically it was that no other weapon could wound him like that, and so after Merry shanked him, his protection was gone and then he got stabbed in the fact. You need to stab his twice with two different weapons basically, through the latter doesn't need to be magical

Looking up the description for Dispel Magic it can either end or suppress the magical effects on a person/being/object. And it's an enchantment that gives WK his protections i think.

3) Oh he just used power word die that time. Deaths knights get 13 power words, witch the WK is immune to

Looking over the d20srd.org description of the Power Word spells it doesn't say anything about undead being immune to them... Do you mean WK has spell resistance?

4) it said it hurt, but doesn't really hinder him. I imagine it just was a minor injury because Soth slaughters the Dragon right after

One less dragon in the world. It must take a lot to really hurt him then.

5) Well he can control fire and ice, but fair enough. Cold wouldn't hurt him however
from
EE

Right, undead are immune to cold I think.

[EvilElitest]

These forums have been pretty bad lately...

I know. Walking Target, there are holes in your argument sadly, but i'll repost my old post i lost tomorrow (i'm still hurt you thought i'd pull such a low trick)

Whereas a truly evil Eragon would be a 'go out and destroy' badass.

Like Artimis Enteria

Looking up the description for Dispel Magic it can either end or suppress the magical effects on a person/being/object. And it's an enchantment that gives WK his protections i think.

Then it would be a counterspell and the WK's will vs. Soths.

Looking over the d20srd.org description of the Power Word spells it doesn't say anything about undead being immune to them... Do you mean WK has spell resistance?

Um, the specific power word powers

Power word kill is useless
Power word pain is useless (wraiths can't feel pain in that sense)
Same goes for maddness, confusions, ect ect ect

One less dragon in the world. It must take a lot to really hurt him then.

Oh yeah, you can hurt Soth phyically, it is just really really hard and takes a lot, i don't deny that

Right, undead are immune to cold I think.

Yep, through that goes for Soth as well
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Like Artimis Enteria

Or Kitiara, Kerrigan, and Dhoulmagus.

Then it would be a counterspell and the WK's will vs. Soths.

It's at least feasible then, though I have no idea whose will is stronger.

Um, the specific power word powers

Power word kill is useless
Power word pain is useless (wraiths can't feel pain in that sense)
Same goes for maddness, confusions, ect ect ect

Well I don't know about Pain, Madness and Confusion, but I know for a fact that Soth has Blind, Kill, and Stun.

Oh yeah, you can hurt Soth phyically, it is just really really hard and takes a lot, i don't deny that

Speaks lots about his swordsmanship that no one has ever wounded him and lived to tell about it.

Yep, through that goes for Soth as well
from
EE

On a side note, in Test of the Twins he literally froze the gates into shattering. THAT is cool.

[Bago!!!]

Thats not counter spelling unless the WK decides to cast a spell, then Soth can counter the spell, according to D&D rules atleast. You have to ready an action to counter spells. Dispelling is just suppressing or cancelling an already exsistant spell.

[WalkingTarget]

I know. Walking Target, there are holes in your argument sadly, but i'll repost my old post i lost tomorrow (i'm still hurt you thought i'd pull such a low trick)

If you've got something that you think I'm missing there, go ahead. (also, note that my first thought was that your post had been lost somehow as it seemed a bit out of character, I was just trying to cover all the bases there )

Power word pain is useless (wraiths can't feel pain in that sense)
Same goes for maddness, confusions, ect ect ect

Power Word: Pain isn't in the SRD. How does it work? Purely mental or is it actually doing something to the target's body (and, as a D&D Wraith is not the same as a Ring Wraith, the latter has a body). Of course, if the spell description specifies that it doesn't work on Undead, transparency between settings would dictate that we'd have to extend that to the Nazgul (Tolkien's use of "undead" might not totally coincide with the mechanics of D&D, so it could be argued either way I guess, but seems like an even-less-resolvable-than-usual problem with definitions to me), but the closest I can find in SRD is Symbol of Pain which is neither Mind-affecting nor a Death effect (which Blind, Kill, or Stun are so Undead-type creatures are immune).

Again, we're dealing with an effect of the Barrow Blade, but the WK can definitely feel pain of some sort:

"Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee."

Hell, the repeated use of the word "bitter" in this and the other quote could be seen to imply that "no other blade" would cause him as much pain ("a wound so bitter"), not necessarily that nothing else would cause him pain at all.

[EvilElitest]

Alright, here we go with the lost response

Well, "specifically", it says “No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..." This says nothing about other weapons not being capable of hurting him, just that they wouldn't hurt him as much. I know I've quoted this exact line in several of the other threads you keep talking about this stuff being decided in so long ago. The matter of other "magic" weapons' effects on the WK isn't addressed at any point as nobody else ever actually manages to hit him that we get to hear about. At best, there isn't enough data to say what can and can't bypass whatever protections the WK has going for him (beyond the Barrow Blades, of course). You're entitled to your opinion, but it's unsporting to state it as fact. It's not like this quotation was even hard to find (I Googled "no other blade" and "bitter" and it was available in the first link along with several of the other results). Sure, the Barrow Blades were anti-Mordor/Angmar, but the elf-made swords (like Sting and Glamdring) were anti-Morgoth/orcs.

1) Tolkien said that only a barrow blade could have worked. If an elvish blade, or other powerful weapon could have worked, Tolkien would have said so. He would have made clear that another blade could have hurt him. However he never says "No other blade, except those forged by the Elvish smiths of old" or "No other blade, save perhaps the blades forged in the first ages of man to fight the Great Enemy". It says no other. It focuses upon the barrow blades specifically as being the only weapons able to inflict so much damage upon him. It focuses upon barrow blades, and makes no mention of other anti evil weapons in Tolkien's own world, thus logically they wouldn't have the same effect
2) So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
Only the barrow blade can break the spell that gives him protection against normal weapons. Only this weapon could have destoryed his spell him in such a manner, or one like it in design

Are you saying that you'll allow "holy" weapons from other settings but not ones from the same setting that were targeted towards a bigger evil? That would approach the argument that "nothing can hurt him unless it's specifically made for that and since other settings don't take that into account, he's immune from everything. Nyah nyah " which none of us like in our vs. threads.

1) Well because the super powerful anti evil blades in ME couldn't have hurt him like that, other wise Tolkien would have mentioned it. It did say no other blade, the elvish blades wouldn't have done as much
2)I do allow powerful holy anti undead weapons from other settings. THe master sword could have hurt him. Frostmourn would not

also i think power word pain only works on living targets
from
EE

[warty goblin]

Alright, here we go with the lost response




1) Tolkien said that only a barrow blade could have worked. If an elvish blade, or other powerful weapon could have worked, Tolkien would have said so. He would have made clear that another blade could have hurt him. However he never says "No other blade, except those forged by the Elvish smiths of old" or "No other blade, save perhaps the blades forged in the first ages of man to fight the Great Enemy". It says no other. It focuses upon the barrow blades specifically as being the only weapons able to inflict so much damage upon him. It focuses upon barrow blades, and makes no mention of other anti evil weapons in Tolkien's own world, thus logically they wouldn't have the same effect
2) So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
Only the barrow blade can break the spell that gives him protection against normal weapons. Only this weapon could have destoryed his spell him in such a manner, or one like it in design


1) Well because the super powerful anti evil blades in ME couldn't have hurt him like that, other wise Tolkien would have mentioned it. It did say no other blade, the elvish blades wouldn't have done as much
2)I do allow powerful holy anti undead weapons from other settings. THe master sword could have hurt him. Frostmourn would not

also i think power word pain only works on living targets
from
EE

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with Walking Target on this one. The barrow blade is clearly the most effective weapon against the Witch-King, but it is not definitively the only weapon that would work. We already know this is the case since the Witch King, along with the rest of the Nazgul were robbed of their form by the flood at the Ford of Bruinen. Not a perma-kill, but enough damage to severely retard the Witch King, at least temporarily. And that flood sounds easily like the sort of thing that Soth could top if he wanted to (Abyssal Blast and Ice Wall come to mind). Remember this is a being who is fairly certain that he is more powerful than any non-Raistlin mortal in the entirety of Krynn, up to and including archmages, etc.

It is also made fairly clear that the Witch King can indeed feel pain, and hence is likely not immune to Power Word Pain. Blinding would obviously not function however, since the Nazgul don't "see" in the normal sense of the word.

[EvilElitest]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with Walking Target on this one. The barrow blade is clearly the most effective weapon against the Witch-King, but it is not definitively the only weapon that would work. We already know this is the case since the Witch King, along with the rest of the Nazgul were robbed of their form by the flood at the Ford of Bruinen. Not a perma-kill, but enough damage to severely retard the Witch King, at least temporarily. And that flood sounds easily like the sort of thing that Soth could top if he wanted to (Abyssal Blast and Ice Wall come to mind). Remember this is a being who is fairly certain that he is more powerful than any non-Raistlin mortal in the entirety of Krynn, up to and including archmages, etc.

You forget WG, that i already said eariler in the thread taht i admit that direct magic attacks could hurt him. That i have no problem with. It is sword attacks i'm making a case against. The Ford was a direct magical attack, that over comes his spell.


As for Soth, Ice wall (how many times can he do it), um he is the Witch King of Agmar, the icy realm if you recall

And abyssal blast does unholy magic

It is also made fairly clear that the Witch King can indeed feel pain, and hence is likely not immune to Power Word Pain. Blinding would obviously not function however, since the Nazgul don't "see" in the normal sense of the word.

No i think the spell power word pain is described to not hurt undead. can somebody check that actually?
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

I find it ridiculous how you find only the barrow blades are the single thing effective against the WK.
I think you are completely misinterpretting this statement...

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter

Does it say "No other blade could have penetrated the WK's spell"? No. Does it say "No other blade could have dispelled it"? No. It is such a bitter wound, I believe, because it was caused by a halfling... I'm sure the WK would think himself vastly above them.
You are saying that even Anduril, which I believe was infused with magic of the Valar, greater beings than Sauron that actually destroyed him once (Resulting in the loss of his shapeshifting powers), is utterly incapable of slaying an underling of Sauron. That seems inconceivable.

And abyssal blast does unholy magic

It is divine fire. Not unholy. Even if it isn't, it projects such a force...
Case in point...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html
I believe this is abyssal blast, and man it packs a punch.
Yeah, my point, whether or not it actually is effective, it has to at least force the WK back a good way and stun him.

As for Soth, Ice wall (how many times can he do it), um he is the Witch King of Agmar, the icy realm if you recall

But does that make him any more capable of breaking through it? Does that make any of his minions immune? No, I would not think so. You already tried a point similar to this, which we countered in the LK vs. Sauron Thread. Orcs being from a icy land and being naturally immune to Northrends extreme weather.
WK may be the ruler of an icy realm, but how often does he go there? Does that give a reason why he is invulnerable to a magical wall of ice that is in no way natural.
If direct magic attacks work, why do you deny the effectiveness of fire and ice? Because the WK has control over them? A wizard has control of magic, but that doesn't make him any less susceptable to it.
I remain at my oppinion that Soth can actually defeat the WK.

[EvilElitest]

I find it ridiculous how you find only the barrow blades are the single thing effective against the WK.
I think you are completely misinterpretting this statement...

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

yes it actually does. A barrow blade or something of similar make is needed to break his spell. So another good anti undead sword is needed


And Lord Soth does not have a good sword
In fact, i'm not even sure he has a magical sword. You called it epic, with no basis.

Does it say "No other blade could have penetrated the WK's spell"? No. Does it say "No other blade could have dispelled it"? No. It is such a bitter wound, I believe, because it was caused by a halfling... I'm sure the WK would think himself vastly above them.

Actually in that tense, he means bitter as in "Painful, damaging"

You are saying that even Anduril, which I believe was infused with magic of the Valar, greater beings than Sauron that actually destroyed him once (Resulting in the loss of his shapeshifting powers), is utterly incapable of slaying an underling of Sauron. That seems inconceivable.

1) Actually Anduril is not made by the Valar, it was made by the greatest dwarf smith and reforged by Elrond
2) Tolkien makes no mention to it, and Aragon does not use his sword against the Nazgul at weather top. So no.

It is divine fire. Not unholy. Even if it isn't, it projects such a force...
Case in point...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html
I believe this is abyssal blast, and man it packs a punch.
Yeah, my point, whether or not it actually is effective, it has to at least force the WK back a good way and stun him.

1) That is a normal Death knight, not a Dragonlance Death Knight. Soth's kind are stronger, but they use unholy fire. It deals unholy damage, which heals undead
2) I don't believe it would drive him back, makes no mention of it in the article

But does that make him any more capable of breaking through it? Does that make any of his minions immune? No, I would not think so. You already tried a point similar to this, which we countered in the LK vs. Sauron Thread. Orcs being from a icy land and being naturally immune to Northrends extreme weather.
WK may be the ruler of an icy realm, but how often does he go there? Does that give a reason why he is invulnerable to a magical wall of ice that is in no way natural.
If direct magic attacks work, why do you deny the effectiveness of fire and ice? Because the WK has control over them? A wizard has control of magic, but that doesn't make him any less susceptable to it.

Except he is the lord of the icy magic there. And he is undead. Undead are immune to cold. Because you know, they don't have a body to be forzen

Also, and i forget what source it came from (Apendix, Simeralion, unfinished tales) the lord of Angmar is said to have power over frost and fire

I remain at my oppinion that Soth can actually defeat the WK.

And i personally think the first Batman and Robin was an amazing film of untold coolness, but that isn't the point

Now lets reiterate

Soth has a limit number of spells that can actually hurt the Witch King. The witch king can hurt soth normally, and a flaming sword does help (along with a giant mace). In single combat, it is uncertain, but advantage Witch King

In the full scale battle, the WK simply have the sheer numbers to wipe out the Blue Dragon army. And then can simply swarm Soth to death (might take a hundred guys, but hey)
from
EE

[Matar]

We don't use that argument, that would eliminate all vs. threads pointless. the assumption in every vs. thread, from the LInk vs. seph, to the Voldemort vs. Sauron to Sauron vs. LK is that magic works normally on each other unless there is a reason for it to do otherwise. In Return of hte King, it specially states that no other type of weapons could hurt him. Unless somebody has a weapon of similar quality or something that could buy pass the shield, but not a normal weapons for not reason other than it suiting your best interests. Soth's sword, while magical, has no mentioned of being good or holy, and as of yet i don't know what happened to his holy sword. Epic means nothing, zip, nada (also Soth doesn't have an epic weapon) it needs to have the specific qualities necessary. Otherwise, the Wk's fear could effect Soth, because just because Soth is immune to Dragonlance magic fear, doesn't mean he is immune to ME magic fear.

This is just... wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. You should never use this type of argument, it's just plain flawed and utterly moronic.

yes it actually does. A barrow blade or something of similar make is needed to break his spell. So another good anti undead sword is needed


And Lord Soth does not have a good sword
In fact, I'm not even sure he has a magical sword. You called it epic, with no basis.

This statement may be true in the Tolkin-Verse (And ever then, people seem to disagree with you) but that's the only place it's true.

If the author states something, then it true -for the authors fiction- only. Weapons for other types of fiction are exempt from the ruling so long as there is logical reason to assume so.

Let me try to put this in a way you (might) understand.

1: In the Tolkin-Verse the Witch-King has an Enchantment that makes all normal weapons unable to harm him.
2: The Barrow Blade is the only holy weapon that can harm him in the Tolkin-Verse.
3: In the Tolkin-Verse only the Barrow blade can harm the Witch-King.

That's it. In the Tolkin-Verse, no farther then that. Powerful weapons from other types of places are exempt. Why? Because I don't recall Tolkin saying "The Witch-King can't be harmed by any weapons, including those from other types of fiction"

Now, does this mean ALL weapons from other storys can hurt him? No, only those of significant power. So a Normal sword from DnD won't do anything, or a +2 blade. But something like Frostmourn from Warcraft, Goku's fist from Dragonball Z, Excalibur from Fate/Stay Night, or Gae-Blog from Fate/Stay Night will do the trick.

Why do we do this? Why is this the proper way to debate? Because when you make people from two different types of fiction face off against each-other, the rules from their world have a bad habit of breaking.

Also.

Why not back up your main argument with quotes, as you always ask other people to do? This whole "Witch-King" shield is your main argument, yet you don't offer any quotes or anything. And you, quite often actually, misinterpret or just falsely state information on this Middle-Earth stuff. (Lol Sauron not being effected by a nuke)

The only quote I see, and the only one I see being offered is this.

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..."

And this doesn't say no weapon would effect him, only that no blade (In the Tolkin-Verse) would have done it so well.

If Sloth has an epic weapon, then it can hurt the Witch-King. If not, then it won't. /End.

[Mr. Scaly]

EE, I hate to say it...but if WK doesn't have a body how'd he manage to get stabbed by a hobbit or even manage to hold a sword and wear armour? There must be 'something' holding up all that gear.

As to his weapon, I'm sure it's heavily magical...items possessed by powerful undead have a way of becoming powerful just by association. I don't know exactly how strong it is though since I can't seem to find a reliable description of it.

And finally...I'm not even going to touch the whole 'WK can't be stabbed by anything but an anti-undead sword ever' because both sides are firmly entrenched and not going to break. Suffice to say, I wouldn't be arguing for Soth if I didn't think it would work for him.

[EvilElitest]

This is just... wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. You should never use this type of argument, it's just plain flawed and utterly moronic.

Not it is not.
we assume magically works normally unless there is something that dictates otherwise. The Witch Kings fear? It will work unless a being is described or likely to be immune or resistant to fear (like say, lord Soth). Unless a being is specifically said to be protected from a certain power, they aren't immune, nor can they break other people's powers without special abilities


For example, The Lich King can use cold magic. It will effect any person who doesn't have magic resistance

This statement may be true in the Tolkin-Verse (And ever then, people seem to disagree with you) but that's the only place it's true.

If the author states something, then it true -for the authors fiction- only. Weapons for other types of fiction are exempt from the ruling so long as there is logical reason to assume so.

And yet there needs to be a logical reason. Link's master sword could hurt the Witch King because it is "all evils bane", through it would be destroyed in the process. However as a weapon like Narzil couldn't hurt him, then a weapon like Excalibur wouldn't (unless it has some sort of anti undead power that i'm not aware. Just because a weapon has a label "powerful" doesn't mean it is suited to getting through a certain power.

Let me try to put this in a way you (might) understand.

1: In the Tolkin-Verse the Witch-King has an Enchantment that makes all normal weapons unable to harm him.
2: The Barrow Blade is the only holy weapon that can harm him in the Tolkin-Verse.
3: In the Tolkin-Verse only the Barrow blade can harm the Witch-King.

That's it. In the Tolkin-Verse, no farther then that. Powerful weapons from other types of places are exempt. Why? Because I don't recall Tolkin saying "The Witch-King can't be harmed by any weapons, including those from other types of fiction"

Except even magical weapons in LotRs can't hurt him, like Narzil or Sting. Barrow blades, or weapons like barrow blades can hurt him, but not weapons

Now, does this mean ALL weapons from other storys can hurt him? No, only those of significant power. So a Normal sword from DnD won't do anything, or a +2 blade. But something like Frostmourn from Warcraft, Goku's fist from Dragonball Z, Excalibur from Fate/Stay Night, or Gae-Blog from Fate/Stay Night will do the trick.

None of these weapons are anti undead
1) Frostmourn is evil, and has no anti undead properties. I see no reason why it would hurt him. It is said to be powerful, but that doesn't allow it to become anti undead (you might make a case with chaos damage, but even then i don't think that dispels protection from spells)
2) Goku's first is just a powerful attack, it doesn't actually have any specific attack against undead
3) Why? Just because they are powerful, there are powerful weapons in LOTRs that can't do the trick. YOu need a specific power.
Just because a weapon is considered magical and powerful doesn't mean it is suited to over come a specific enchantment

Why do we do this? Why is this the proper way to debate? Because when you make people from two different types of fiction face off against each-other, the rules from their world have a bad habit of breaking.

This is frankly, an dishonorable way to argue. The WK has a protection against most weapons, "power level" isn't hte issue. THe issue is what their enchantment is, not how powerful they are, because other wise Glamring could have done it. It is silly to simply say that a weapon works for no logical basis other than it suiting your purpose. It really is, because it throws aside logic and discussion in exchange for what you want to win. I admit it isn't very fair that Soth can't hurt the WK, him not having any powerful weapons that we are aware of, but you can't simply state that a weapon can hurt him "because you say so" It is utterly absurd, because there isn't any basis. Why can Lord Soth hurt the WK? He weapon has no mention of being anti undead (unless he kept the one from his paladin days, and i don't think he can actually use that, at least easily). Why can Goku's first hurt him? It might be devastating but it can't over come magic as far as no (through the super blast might count as powerful enough in the same way the river was, but that is the magic thing coming from the first, not the first itself)

Better example, Excalibur from taht game, why can it hurt him? Is it anti undead? Is it forged to hurt undead or incorporeal beings? Does it have any specific power to harm undead? Or does it just have a label saying powerful? So does Narzil, and yet it wasn't mentioned of being able to hurt the Wk? Nor Sting, or Orcish, or any other middle earth sword. Simply saying that stuff from other worlds can hurt him "Because they can" is manipulating the situation to suit your own purposes, and that is extremly foul play.

.........is apologize

Now forgive my anger, maybe i just misunderstand your intentions, but really, you can't have stuff work simply because "It can" It is just suiting your own purpose. If you can find a logical reason for Soth's weapon being able to hurt him, like say, it in fact being able to hurt Banshees or other undead due to special enchancment, then i'd gladly say "Well then, the Wk is screwed" because Soth is a better swordsmen. however there needs to be a basis, a logical reason other than it suiting your purpose

Also.

Why not back up your main argument with quotes, as you always ask other people to do? This whole "Witch-King" shield is your main argument, yet you don't offer any quotes or anything. And you, quite often actually, misinterpret or just falsely state information on this Middle-Earth stuff. (Lol Sauron not being effected by a nuke)

1) What do you want? I've already provided the proof the WK's shield, what else do you need? We aren't using the prophecy, what else do you need?
2) Try backing that up. I have actually provided a massive amount of correct information about ME. Occasionally WK has corrected me, and occasionally i've corrected him, but i haven't made false statements. Because you call me a liar, witch is a great discrediting attempt, actually provide examples, because other wise you get
3) and out right lie I actually didn't really touch the Sauron Nuke issue. I commented upon his being destoryed by the Breaking of teh World (IE the entire world's shape changing him and the Island he was one being crushed underneath the earth) but i didn't care about the Nuke thing ether way
Before attempting to discredit me, back yourself up

The only quote I see, and the only one I see being offered is this.

Correction, the quote is this

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

You need a barrow blade or something like it to break his spell

And this doesn't say no weapon would effect him, only that no blade (In the Tolkin-Verse) would have done it so well.

You need to have the specific requirements to get over the enchantment. Another weapon that is in fact anti undead could hurt him i admit, like Ashbringer, which isn't Tolkien verse, but it still needs to be anti undead or anti wraith

If Sloth has an epic weapon, then it can hurt the Witch-King. If not, then it won't. /End.

He needs more than an epic weapon, which Glamring is, he needs a weapon that can actually over come undead powers

EE, I hate to say it...but if WK doesn't have a body how'd he manage to get stabbed by a hobbit or even manage to hold a sword and wear armour? There must be 'something' holding up all that gear.

Same reason why a D&D ghost can

As to his weapon, I'm sure it's heavily magical...items possessed by powerful undead have a way of becoming powerful just by association. I don't know exactly how strong it is though since I can't seem to find a reliable description of it.

Also is it anti undead

And finally...I'm not even going to touch the whole 'WK can't be stabbed by anything but an anti-undead sword ever' because both sides are firmly entrenched and not going to break. Suffice to say, I wouldn't be arguing for Soth if I didn't think it would work for him.

The thing is you can't have it work because you want it to work, it has to work for a logical reason
from
EE

[Matar]

Not it is not.
we assume magically works normally unless there is something that dictates otherwise. The Witch Kings fear? It will work unless a being is described or likely to be immune or resistant to fear (like say, lord Soth). Unless a being is specifically said to be protected from a certain power, they aren't immune, nor can they break other people's powers without special abilities


For example, The Lich King can use cold magic. It will effect any person who doesn't have magic resistance

That's not how it works at all. It's simple, the way something works in one universe does not make it work that way in others. An absolute in on universe is not an absolute in another one.

For example. Let's say there is a dude who can freeze anything that touches him. The line would go something like this.

"Anything that came into contact with him froze in an instant; Walls shattered and rivers ran still from his icy touch. Nothing, not even (Insert generic name) dared to without reach of his icy grasp."

And we made him fight TTGL. The auther just said that anything touching it froze over, so would the TTGL freeze as well? No, of course not. It's not immune to cold, but it's a given that it just won't freeze from it. Plain common sense. The author said anything touching it would freeze in an instant, but once you introduce something from another universe -it does not matter anymore-.

Except even magical weapons in LotRs can't hurt him, like Narzil or Sting. Barrow blades, or weapons like barrow blades can hurt him, but not weapons

They are magic, sure. But not nearly close to the power were speaking of.

None of these weapons are anti undead
1) Frostmourn is evil, and has no anti undead properties. I see no reason why it would hurt him. It is said to be powerful, but that doesn't allow it to become anti undead (you might make a case with chaos damage, but even then i don't think that dispels protection from spells)
2) Goku's first is just a powerful attack, it doesn't actually have any specific attack against undead
3) Why? Just because they are powerful, there are powerful weapons in LOTRs that can't do the trick. YOu need a specific power.
Just because a weapon is considered magical and powerful doesn't mean it is suited to over come a specific enchantment

1: It's an object of insane power. The power of the weapon can't compare to anything in the LoTR-Verse. Tolkin never considered that the Witch-King would ever fight someone who had taht kind of weapon. So it -doesn't matter- if he said no weapon besides the Barrow Blade could hurt the Witch-King, because he never considered something of such massive power going against it.

2: Same as one. Are you honestly telling me that a punch with so much force that it send people through -planets- won't kill him with ease? Please. What's next, saying he would live a Falcon Punch?

Now forgive my anger, maybe i just misunderstand your intentions, but really, you can't have stuff work simply because "It can" It is just suiting your own purpose. If you can find a logical reason for Soth's weapon being able to hurt him, like say, it in fact being able to hurt Banshees or other undead due to special enchancment, then i'd gladly say "Well then, the Wk is screwed" because Soth is a better swordsmen. however there needs to be a basis, a logical reason other than it suiting your purpose

Piting two people against each other from two diffrent places in fiction, and making them fight each other even though there very -nature- is diffrent is illogical.

When doing a VS thread you have to go by common sense, and comprimises more then literal author interpritation. Otherwhys things just get fecking dumb.

He needs more than an epic weapon, which Glamring is, he needs a weapon that can actually over come undead powers

Then it will hurt him. Diffrent levels of power, mixing in a way both authors never intended them to.

Your debate shouldn't be "It won't hurt him." It doesn't work like that, and is an ignorant stance to take. A more logical stance to take would be "Okay, but would effect as much as it would someone else?" and compromise with people. Reach a ground everyone agrees with. Maybe not everyone is happy with it, but still can -agree- with it.

[Corolinth]

On the numbers thing, it should be pointed out if it hasn't been already that Mordor's armies were nowhere near as big as they appear in the movies. They fielded several thousand for various battles. While that sounds like a lot of troops on paper, it wasn't impressive enough for a movie. There may be a numbers advantage, but it won't be greater than 3:1 (which is something that wouldn't overcome dragons or draconians).

[EvilElitest]

That's not how it works at all. It's simple, the way something works in one universe does not make it work that way in others. An absolute in on universe is not an absolute in another one.

For example. Let's say there is a dude who can freeze anything that touches him. The line would go something like this.

"Anything that came into contact with him froze in an instant; Walls shattered and rivers ran still from his icy touch. Nothing, not even (Insert generic name) dared to without reach of his icy grasp."

And we made him fight TTGL. The auther just said that anything touching it froze over, so would the TTGL freeze as well? No, of course not. It's not immune to cold, but it's a given that it just won't freeze from it. Plain common sense. The author said anything touching it would freeze in an instant, but once you introduce something from another universe -it does not matter anymore-.

Who is TTGL? Doesn't matter, if mr. Freeze it all is described to be able to freeze anything, then so would this TTGL, who ever they are. Just because they come from another universe doesn't mean they get some sort of special immunity.

They are magic, sure. But not nearly close to the power were speaking of.

Actually the elvish weapons in ME are mad powerful as far as magic swords goe

1: It's an object of insane power. The power of the weapon can't compare to anything in the LoTR-Verse. Tolkin never considered that the Witch-King would ever fight someone who had taht kind of weapon. So it -doesn't matter- if he said no weapon besides the Barrow Blade could hurt the Witch-King, because he never considered something of such massive power going against it.

Frostmourne is a unique and indestructible item - an artifact-level bastard sword with the following abilities: an increased chance to hit, increased damage, an increased chance of scoring a critical hit, an increased attack speed, the ability to strike incorporeal creatures as though they were fully corporeal, the ability to cause bleeding wounds and reduce the victim's stamina, bonus damage against good-aligned beings, bonus damage against living beings, and a life-draining effect that heals its wielder when he deals damage.

1) Lets see, it sucks souls, it hits things well, it is corrupts people, and has some niffty effects, but more powerful than anything in LotRS. Yeah, BS. It has a fancy title and a fan following, that doesn't make it automatically better. It can hurt the WK (see bolded phrase) but that has nothing to do with its "massive power". "massive power" or any other fancy term means nothing. Only its actual abilities.
It is powerful yes, but it "doesn't compare with anything in Middle Earth". What, stealing somebody's soul is that impressive?
2) You can't predict what Tolkien would have said, as he is dead. We can't say "well if Tolkien knew about this super awesome weapon he would have made the exception" we have only the actual powers of the Wk himself. Frostmourn's "Massive power" which means nothing. Only the specifics requirements

2: Same as one. Are you honestly telling me that a punch with so much force that it send people through -planets- won't kill him with ease? Please. What's next, saying he would live a Falcon Punch?

Yes and yes. It would knock him over, but it can't break his spell. Just because can smash a planet doesn't mean it can actually hurt him (through i imagine floating around in space wouldn't do him well at all). However it isn't anti undead. It simply is powerful, which doesn't mean it can break his specific requirements

Piting two people against each other from two diffrent places in fiction, and making them fight each other even though there very -nature- is diffrent is illogical.

not really, it is just making predictions on who will win. You use their powers as they are described to have, and then let it out. Now if the Wk fought, i don't know, somebody with an anti undead sword, like Ashbringer, then i can see him dying. If he fought, Rastalin he'd lose

When doing a VS thread you have to go by common sense, and comprimises more then literal author interpritation. Otherwhys things just get fecking dumb.

No, establishing your own rules to suit your purpose is freaking dumb. In a vs. thread, you use the powers of teh characters, and if an author says he can do something, then he can do that thing. If you need a specific power to over come his spell, then you need that power. Otherwise you cheating, your changing the nature of the contestants powers to suit your own purposes.

Then it will hurt him. Diffrent levels of power, mixing in a way both authors never intended them to.

The author's intention in this case doesn't matter, unless they wrote something on the subject. What matters is the powers of the characters. Soth could use an epic weapon, just like Glamring is an epic weapon, i doesn't let him over come the WK's powers without reason

Your debate shouldn't be "It won't hurt him." It doesn't work like that, and is an ignorant stance to take.

Because you say so? Because it suits your purpose? Because you want it to be? No. The passage says that you need something like a barrow blade, a weapon made to hurt undead or incorporeal creatures to hurt him. That is an established powers. It might not be fair, but.....well who says it has to be. Its a vs. thread, they are never fair.

A more logical stance to take would be "Okay, but would effect as much as it would someone else?" and compromise with people. Reach a ground everyone agrees with. Maybe not everyone is happy with it, but still can -agree- with it.

So you asking me to cheat, to give up my honesty and throw cannon to the winds and decide this based on non canonical compromises? You can't through cannon aside simply because it suits your purpose, i'm sorry we need to deal with the established powers and work from there

On the numbers thing, it should be pointed out if it hasn't been already that Mordor's armies were nowhere near as big as they appear in the movies. They fielded several thousand for various battles. While that sounds like a lot of troops on paper, it wasn't impressive enough for a movie. There may be a numbers advantage, but it won't be greater than 3:1 (which is something that wouldn't overcome dragons or draconians).

actually Mordor had more people in the books than in the movie. Can you please just trust me on this one and not make me explain it, it takes like a page
from
EE

[Matar]

Who is TTGL? Doesn't matter, if mr. Freeze it all is described to be able to freeze anything, then so would this TTGL, who ever they are. Just because they come from another universe doesn't mean they get some sort of special immunity.

Tengan Toppa Gurren Laggan. It's a robot that's about as tall as... say, 12 galaxys? And can toss them around for fun. And can take a blast from something with the same energy out-put as the Big Bang.

And no, no it wouldn't. You have missed the entire point; ether through your ignorance or my poor wording. Or a mix of the two, doesn't matter.

The quote of Mr. Freeze is only true in -that- work of fiction, and doesn't remain true in any other type. Why is this, even though the author so clearly stated that it would? Because he only said that -in regard to his story-.

Here's another example. Azathoth touches Mt.Freeze. Does he get frozen? Of course not! He's freaking Azathoth! Azathoth wants to destroy the one-ring for -whatever- reason. Does he destroy it, even though Tolkin said it was impossible? Yes, he does. Why? Because when Tolkin says something like "It's impossible" It's only impossible in LoTR.

And incase you don't know who Azathoth is, google it. H.P Lovecraft is incredible.

Actually the elvish weapons in ME are mad powerful as far as magic swords goe

In Tolkin-Verse, sure. But there nothing compared to the stuff from other fiction. Excaliber from Fate/Stay Night, Frostmourn from Warcraft 3, The Red-Ruby wand from DnD.

1) Lets see, it sucks souls, it hits things well, it is corrupts people, and has some niffty effects, but more powerful than anything in LotRS. Yeah, BS. It has a fancy title and a fan following, that doesn't make it automatically better. It can hurt the WK (see bolded phrase) but that has nothing to do with its "massive power". "massive power" or any other fancy term means nothing. Only its actual abilities.

Semantics. Please, that's honestly rather sad. You know what I meant, Nit-Picking just shows how poor of a sport you are.

2) You can't predict what Tolkien would have said, as he is dead. We can't say "well if Tolkien knew about this super awesome weapon he would have made the exception" we have only the actual powers of the Wk himself. Frostmourn's "Massive power" which means nothing. Only the specifics requirements

No, if Tolkin knew about it he wouldn't have made an exception. Wanna know why? Because it doesn't effect his fiction. That's all he covered, his fiction. If he said some peasent with no powers could defeat anyone, then that would be true... in the Tolkin-Verse. But -only- in the Tolkin-Verse. Take him out of it, and it holds no power at all.

The author's intention in this case doesn't matter, unless they wrote something on the subject. What matters is the powers of the characters. Soth could use an epic weapon, just like Glamring is an epic weapon, i doesn't let him over come the WK's powers without reason

What you just said right makes no sense.

No, establishing your own rules to suit your purpose is freaking dumb. In a vs. thread, you use the powers of teh characters, and if an author says he can do something, then he can do that thing. If you need a specific power to over come his spell, then you need that power. Otherwise you cheating, your changing the nature of the contestants powers to suit your own purposes.

The character can do that thing in regards to the story he's in. Take a character from LoTR, give him a sheild that the author says will not break, and put him in a VS contest with Azathoth. Have Azathoth bitch-slap the dude with a tentical and the dude dies, and sheild breaks. Why? Diffrent fiction, diffrent levels of power that were never meant to mix. And as such, the absolute rules for one -don't work- in the other.

Because you say so? Because it suits your purpose? Because you want it to be? No. The passage says that you need something like a barrow blade, a weapon made to hurt undead or incorporeal creatures to hurt him. That is an established powers. It might not be fair, but.....well who says it has to be. Its a vs. thread, they are never fair.

And established power -in the Tolkin-verse-. The absolute there means bunk in another world. Will it protect the WK from most weapons? Sure. From alot of magic weapons? Sure. But reach a certain level of power, and the absolute from one world means jack in another.

So you asking me to cheat, to give up my honesty and throw cannon to the winds and decide this based on non canonical compromises? You can't through cannon aside simply because it suits your purpose, i'm sorry we need to deal with the established powers and work from there

Im asking for you to learn how to debate.

This is just pointless. I'll start debating more when someone else starts up again, but bothering with EE is like talking to a brickwall. Pointless.

[Steven the Lich]

Actually the elvish weapons in ME are mad powerful as far as magic swords goe

1) Lets see, it sucks souls, it hits things well, it is corrupts people, and has some niffty effects, but more powerful than anything in LotRS. Yeah, BS. It has a fancy title and a fan following, that doesn't make it automatically better. It can hurt the WK (see bolded phrase) but that has nothing to do with its "massive power". "massive power" or any other fancy term means nothing. Only its actual abilities.
It is powerful yes, but it "doesn't compare with anything in Middle Earth". What, stealing somebody's soul is that impressive?
2) You can't predict what Tolkien would have said, as he is dead. We can't say "well if Tolkien knew about this super awesome weapon he would have made the exception" we have only the actual powers of the Wk himself. Frostmourn's "Massive power" which means nothing. Only the specifics requirements

Alright, as a statement, Frostmourne was forged by demons... Who are pretty much the main bane of all life and creation. This is the source of the chaos damage, which bypasses divine armor. DIVINE armor. Quit overlooking that detail, as it is important.
1) The Weapon is in almost every meaning of the word godlike. You'd have a hell of a time looking for a weapon belonging to any mere mortal in Azeroth that even comes close to Frostmournes power. I can only name Atiesh and Ashbringer, both of which outpower any weapon in ME. Frostmourne is definitely stronger than the Twin Blades of Azzinoth belonging to Illidan, and we can go on this assumption because we see Arthas defeat Illidan (Whether or not the fight was supposed to be longer is of no consequence, he would have defeated him anyway). The fact it steals souls, upon wielding it or cutting someone and killing them with it, is further explanation of its epic power (And I think it would bypass the ring wraiths reincarnation cycle thing).
2) Saying he never made the exception and knowing that he never knew it just doesn't mix. Heres what we know...
*Frostmourne is from a high magic setting, not low or mid, high.
*Frostmourne is chaos in a word, it is capable of passing through divine armor. Divine in a high magic setting I believe would surpass the WK's shield with ease.
*LotRs is a mid-magic setting. Frostmourne is from high magic setting.
The above points could very well be used for several epic weapons.

Yes and yes. It would knock him over, but it can't break his spell. Just because can smash a planet doesn't mean it can actually hurt him (through i imagine floating around in space wouldn't do him well at all). However it isn't anti undead. It simply is powerful, which doesn't mean it can break his specific requirements

This said, Freezas death ball would not nuke him, Broileys super array of green energy blasts would not even scratch him... EE, what you are saying here... just totaled your credibility. Doesn't matter if they aren't specicially meant to destory undead... If it packs that much force, WK should be destroyed easily. DBZ is &^%*ing god like in every meaning of the word. Except it is all destruction... no creation.

not really, it is just making predictions on who will win. You use their powers as they are described to have, and then let it out. Now if the Wk fought, i don't know, somebody with an anti undead sword, like Ashbringer, then i can see him dying. If he fought, Rastalin he'd lose

I can see him dying against a guy with Frostmourne. Utterly.

Because you say so? Because it suits your purpose? Because you want it to be? No. The passage says that you need something like a barrow blade, a weapon made to hurt undead or incorporeal creatures to hurt him. That is an established powers. It might not be fair, but.....well who says it has to be. Its a vs. thread, they are never fair.

You need something like a Barrow Blade in the bloody Tolkien-Verse. You are taking the authors words (Or your own assumption) and placing them in another guys world. It... just... doesn't... work, because there are different items and lore and magic.

You need a barrow blade or something like it to break his spell

According to what is said in that single quote, no. That is just your interpretation. Is your view correct? Many people here seems to think so. I think you are taking Tolkiens words literally... too literally.

Actually in that tense, he means bitter as in "Painful, damaging"

Are you sure? Because the WK seems to be the prideful kind of guy to be shamed at being shanked by a midget. The hobbits rule in that manner.

1) Actually Anduril is not made by the Valar, it was made by the greatest dwarf smith and reforged by Elrond
2) Tolkien makes no mention to it, and Aragon does not use his sword against the Nazgul at weather top. So no.

1) If I'm not mistaken, it was forged with the Valar's magic, or their light. It was downright epic, and even cut right through Saurons barrier (If he had one) like tissue and sliced off his finger. Now taking this, is it completely illogical that it can't cut through the Wk's barrier, though it be weaker than what Sauron had? The fact it was made by the greatest dwarven smith doesn't help your case any. Need I say more?
2) That has a giant and huge hole in it. It likely never came to mind for Tolkien, because he never had Aragorn fight the WK with the sword, nor any intention of it likely. Just because he never mentioned Anduril being able to kill the WK, doesn't mean it is not able to.

And i personally think the first Batman and Robin was an amazing film of untold coolness, but that isn't the point

And I think it just plain sucked because they made Mr. Freeze into a cheesy villain, with horrible puns (Seriously, chill?), who also made his villains recite a christmas song as his theme (The fact that Batman had his own credit card with a bat on it doesn't help any).

In the full scale battle, the WK simply have the sheer numbers to wipe out the Blue Dragon army. And then can simply swarm Soth to death (might take a hundred guys, but hey)

Sorry, but this seems horribly wrong. With those dragons, WK's orcs are as good as toast (And as crispy as it too) To say that the sheer numbers will wipe them out is utterly illogical. Archers I can accept, but does every orc in the army carry a bow? To my knowledge, no.

So you asking me to cheat, to give up my honesty and throw cannon to the winds and decide this based on non canonical compromises? You can't through cannon aside simply because it suits your purpose, i'm sorry we need to deal with the established powers and work from there

Honestly... I can say that this display of ignorance and "Holier than thou art" attitude surprises even me. EE, drop the self-righteous attitude, you aren't helping your case any with such declarations and drama.

This is just pointless. I'll start debating more when someone else starts up again, but bothering with EE is like talking to a brickwall. Pointless.

Yeah, I've developed that feeling in the course of many ME threads... But its part of his tactics. His main point in vs. Threads is to be stubborn and immovable until his opponents give up on him and leave, so he can claim a false victory, completely ignoring the truth of numbers which, in my oppinion, is what wins these threads. Its better to keep a cool head and try and put up a good debate, as it can actually win you your own victory. Don't back down and wait till someone else starts this up again, its better to settle it now. I see Soths chances much higher than the WKs, despite EE's claims otherwise, so I'm not backing down.

[Tyrant]

That's not how it works at all. It's simple, the way something works in one universe does not make it work that way in others. An absolute in on universe is not an absolute in another one.

Doesn't this line of reasoning make any and all vs thread meaningless? I mean, using your own take, I could say Frostmourn can't harm anyone from ME because it is never seen doing so. Using your logic, we have no reason to assume any level of transparency between the worlds and can make numerous arguments for why it won't do anything. Some examples:
1) Humans from ME aren't the humans in WoW, and are therefore not to be taken to have the same limitations, vulnerabilities, etc
2) The magic that drives Frostmourn will only work on WoW creations because it was made by them to fight against them
And on and on it goes. Without assuming some level of crossover, what's the point as we could simply argue nonsense like this for pages on end? EE is stubborn and takes this farther than I would, but you're approach is insanity.

For example. Let's say there is a dude who can freeze anything that touches him. The line would go something like this.

"Anything that came into contact with him froze in an instant; Walls shattered and rivers ran still from his icy touch. Nothing, not even (Insert generic name) dared to without reach of his icy grasp."

And we made him fight TTGL. The auther just said that anything touching it froze over, so would the TTGL freeze as well? No, of course not. It's not immune to cold, but it's a given that it just won't freeze from it. Plain common sense. The author said anything touching it would freeze in an instant, but once you introduce something from another universe -it does not matter anymore-.

It would freeze. Using you're set up, it will freeze. The word "anything" can only be taken one way. It is a fairly all-inclusive statement. Does it make sense that it would, probably not but that's not the point. If you throw out the fact that anything is fairly absolute, then any argument you can come up with the TTGL being able to hurt the Freezy also goes right out the window.

[EvilElitest]

Tengan Toppa Gurren Laggan. It's a robot that's about as tall as... say, 12 galaxys? And can toss them around for fun. And can take a blast from something with the same energy out-put as the Big Bang.

But it says it can freeze anything. There is no reason (at least an you've provided) that will give him protection other than "Well he is powerful" Sure he is powerful, but that isn't the point. the point is that he has no protection.

And no, no it wouldn't. You have missed the entire point; ether through your ignorance or my poor wording. Or a mix of the two, doesn't matter.

It is not ignorance, it is fairness. We argue based upon abilities shown to be present, not ones we wished they had. Just because somebody has a niffty label saying they are powerful, and they might even be powerful, that does given them powers they have never processed. The giant robot guy doesn't have an specific protection from being frozen, so the made up "Mr. Freeze guy" will in fact win. You are manipulating the cannon simply to achieve an outcome that you find favorable, and that has no cannon basis. Just because a character is considered powerful, or you claim (often without backing) that they are powerful, doesn't give them special immunities or abilities they never possessed in their original canon. Giant robot guy might be extremely powerful. He could very well blow up an entire galaxy sure, but if he touched, unless he has some sort of special protection he will freeze. Now if the giant robot guy is cannonly stated to posses some sort of immunity to cold or freezing or what not (or something like sun powered heating mechanism) then you could make an argument that it wouldn't work. However you can't simply use this because "HE IS POWERFUL" that is simplistic and dishonest. That is achieving an outcome with not canonical basis

The quote of Mr. Freeze is only true in -that- work of fiction, and doesn't remain true in any other type. Why is this, even though the author so clearly stated that it would? Because he only said that -in regard to his story-.

That is an ignorant approach, because in that case, the Elder Evils in their book might drive people in sane, but it wouldn't work on somebody like Morgoth, an being too powerful for Lovecraft to imagine.

You see what i'm doing? I'm using the same logic without any basis. I'm simply stating that Morgoth is immune "Just because" due to the fact he is considered powerful. Or Sargarous as well. Never of these beings have any immunity to the insanity that elder evils bring about, however because i don't want them to lose, i'm simply saying right out that they are far to powerful to be effected. And by your logic that makes sense, because even through Lovecraft stated that Elder Evils will drive you insane if you make true contact with them, however i'm claiming they are immune because Lovecraft never imagined that his elder Evils would come into contact with the world's creators.
If you state that powers of certain creatures can't go beyond their place of orgine , then no vs. thread could ever possibly work because non of their powers will have the same effect

Rastilin can use magic fire. And yet Gollum has never come into contact with Dragonlance fire. It would work, because the Makers of rastalin would never imagine that he would fight a LOTRS character. If you take away cannon this just because a fan devotion to who ever is you favorite character and nothing more.


We assume powers work normally, as shown in their canonical work unless there is a reason for it to work otherwise. the elder evils insanity will work on Morgoth and Sarcarous, because there is no reason why ether would be immune. Rastalin will burn gollum because gollum has no immunity. the imaginary freeze dude will freeze giant robot man because robot guy has no given protection from being frozen

Here's another example. Azathoth touches Mt.Freeze. Does he get frozen? Of course not! He's freaking Azathoth! Azathoth wants to destroy the one-ring for -whatever- reason. Does he destroy it, even though Tolkin said it was impossible? Yes, he does. Why? Because when Tolkin says something like "It's impossible" It's only impossible in LoTR.

Except Azathoth has a given reason. He can destroy the one ring and resist freezing because he is an elder evil. he has the powers of an evil evil, which means he can break the rules. Love craft established taht elder evils can destroy anything, and break every other rule, and as of such he wins simply because of his immunity

In Tolkin-Verse, sure. But there nothing compared to the stuff from other fiction. Excaliber from Fate/Stay Night, Frostmourn from Warcraft 3, The Red-Ruby wand from DnD.

1) In terms of a better sword? frostmourn is more unwieldy than Narzil and Glamring, and it corrupts the owner. It has some cool tricks, but it isn't worth the hype
2) I fail to see the Fate/Stay night powers. It could hurt the WK, because, unless i forgot something, it is just a really good magic sword, no special powers
3) Ruby Wand is impressive sure, but that doesn't give it the powers needed to hurt the Wk

Semantics. Please, that's honestly rather sad. You know what I meant, Nit-Picking just shows how poor of a sport you are.

out right lies and unbacked claims of grander along with disregard for canonical powers is far more unsportsmanlike then devotion to the cannon.

No, if Tolkin knew about it he wouldn't have made an exception. Wanna know why? Because it doesn't effect his fiction. That's all he covered, his fiction. If he said some peasent with no powers could defeat anyone, then that would be true... in the Tolkin-Verse. But -only- in the Tolkin-Verse. Take him out of it, and it holds no power at all.

And that would hold true to Lovecrafts elder evils and their powers wouldn't it. You take away people's cannon powers to suit your own purposes and before you know it, nobody can fight each other any more

What you just said right makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Just because a weapon is considered "Epic" doesn't mean it has the suitable quality to fight a certain foe. The sword of Truth is Epic, it wouldn't have any effect on the WK because he has no illusions about his existence. Glamring is epic, Orcish is Epic, Narzil is epic, and yet they don't have the effect on the WK. You need a specific type of weapon to be able to break the WK's spell, or something that makes the spell null (like say, rastalin)

The character can do that thing in regards to the story he's in. Take a character from LoTR, give him a sheild that the author says will not break, and put him in a VS contest with Azathoth. Have Azathoth bitch-slap the dude with a tentical and the dude dies, and sheild breaks. Why? Diffrent fiction, diffrent levels of power that were never meant to mix. And as such, the absolute rules for one -don't work- in the other.

Absolute rules do work unless there is something to challenge the absolute. Azathoth is cannonlly established to be able to break the rules of any universe, as said by Lovecraft. Thus he can defeat the un breakable shield.
According to your logic, i can put him Azathoth Against Eru and Eru would win because i claim he has "Awsome power that Lovecraft would never dream of"

And established power -in the Tolkin-verse-. The absolute there means bunk in another world. Will it protect the WK from most weapons? Sure. From alot of magic weapons? Sure. But reach a certain level of power, and the absolute from one world means jack in another.

power level means nothing. Power level isn't a black and white Dragon ball styled number system, it varies. Some weapons are good for certain situations. Sword of Truth is great against some people. it could kill Seph. It couldn't hurt the WK. The master sword could, because it has a specific reason

Im asking for you to learn how to debate.

You asking me to cheat and twist rules under the pretense of debate. That isn't debate, that is breaking rules to suit your purpose. It is dishonest, and dishonorable. It is simply making rules up on whim to suit my purpose rather than use the actual material at hand. In real debates you use sources to verify answers, i do real debate, you don't make stuff up to suit your point. Your not asking me to debate, your asking me to cheat

This is just pointless. I'll start debating more when someone else starts up again, but bothering with EE is like talking to a brickwall. Pointless.

Yeah, because i'm not going to give up my integrity to suit your naive assumptions and out right lies. Call me a brick wall, i'd rather be stubborn than a cheater

Alright, as a statement, Frostmourne was forged by demons... Who are pretty much the main bane of all life and creation. This is the source of the chaos damage, which bypasses divine armor. DIVINE armor. Quit overlooking that detail, as it is important.

1) actually, do your research, Frostmourn origin is unknown. Check it on the wiki
2) Divine natrual armor, not protection granted by spells

1) The Weapon is in almost every meaning of the word godlike. You'd have a hell of a time looking for a weapon belonging to any mere mortal in Azeroth that even comes close to Frostmournes power. I can only name Atiesh and Ashbringer, both of which outpower any weapon in ME. Frostmourne is definitely stronger than the Twin Blades of Azzinoth belonging to Illidan, and we can go on this assumption because we see Arthas defeat Illidan (Whether or not the fight was supposed to be longer is of no consequence, he would have defeated him anyway). The fact it steals souls, upon wielding it or cutting someone and killing them with it, is further explanation of its epic power (And I think it would bypass the ring wraiths reincarnation cycle thing).

1) So? God like weapon does it have the requirements needed to hurt him. Actually it does, it can hurt incorporeal beings, so no argument there, but its god powers have nothing to do with that, only its specific enchantment
2) Illidin being defeated was a close fight, but that was more about Arthas' skil, Illidin didn't have a specific protection
3) The twin blades have super powers as well, they couldn't hurt The WK because they lack any anti undead magic (while Frostmourn has the ability to hurt those without substance)

2) Saying he never made the exception and knowing that he never knew it just doesn't mix. Heres what we know...

Yes it does, only weapons with a certain quality can hurt him. Frostmourn has that quality, which is that it can hurt incorporal creatures, but if it didn't have that abilty it couldn't do that

*

Frostmourne is from a high magic setting, not low or mid, high.
*Frostmourne is chaos in a word, it is capable of passing through divine armor. Divine in a high magic setting I believe would surpass the WK's shield with ease.
*LotRs is a mid-magic setting. Frostmourne is from high magic setting.
The above points could very well be used for several epic weapons.

1) magic level doens't matter, its actual abilities do
2) Actually Divine magic is natrual, while hte WK has a spell, so if Frostmourn can make magical protections (like the spell armor) usless then it could break the WK's spell (never mind because it can already hurt incoporal creatures anyways but that isn't the point
3) LOTRS and Warcrafts magic levels don't matter. It is the actual abilities present that matter

This said, Freezas death ball would not nuke him, Broileys super array of green energy blasts would not even scratch him... EE, what you are saying here... just totaled your credibility. Doesn't matter if they aren't specicially meant to destory undead... If it packs that much force, WK should be destroyed easily. DBZ is &^%*ing god like in every meaning of the word. Except it is all destruction... no creation.

Does he have an establish power that can destroy protection spells? If no, can't hurt him. Might blow everything else around to pieces or could burn him to death, but direct attacks, can't hurt him

I can see him dying against a guy with Frostmourne. Utterly.

Raistalin. Don't make me laugh, your losing all of your credibility. Rastalin is a god powered mage, with specific powers that can destory universes, no chance there

You need something like a Barrow Blade in the bloody Tolkien-Verse. You are taking the authors words (Or your own assumption) and placing them in another guys world. It... just... doesn't... work, because there are different items and lore and magic.

We are using their established powers. I mean, if Frostmourn is taking out of its setting, it still works like Frostmourn. Or are you saying that it wouldn't work against somebody from another setting simply because writers of warcraft didn't consider it.

According to what is said in that single quote, no. That is just your interpretation. Is your view correct? Many people here seems to think so. I think you are taking Tolkiens words literally... too literally.

Tolkiens word is all we have to go on. I have defended my view point and nobody responded

Are you sure? Because the WK seems to be the prideful kind of guy to be shamed at being shanked by a midget. The hobbits rule in that manner

It was refering to the sword, not the hobbit. Bitter means pain you realize

1) If I'm not mistaken, it was forged with the Valar's magic, or their light. It was downright epic, and even cut right through Saurons barrier (If he had one) like tissue and sliced off his finger. Now taking this, is it completely illogical that it can't cut through the Wk's barrier, though it be weaker than what Sauron had? The fact it was made by the greatest dwarven smith doesn't help your case any. Need I say more?
2) That has a giant and huge hole in it. It likely never came to mind for Tolkien, because he never had Aragorn fight the WK with the sword, nor any intention of it likely. Just because he never mentioned Anduril being able to kill the WK, doesn't mean it is not able to.

1) It wasn't actually, and it didn't slice his finger, Sauron didn't have a barrier (he lost his at the breaking of the world). The Wk is a different type of being than Sauron with a different type of shield
2) tolkien is infamous for including exceptions, and he said "no other blade" If he would have made an exception, he would have included

And I think it just plain sucked because they made Mr. Freeze into a cheesy villain, with horrible puns (Seriously, chill?), who also made his villains recite a christmas song as his theme (The fact that Batman had his own credit card with a bat on it doesn't help any).

exactly, options are worth nothing if not backed. I can claim it is the best movie in the world, but it means nothing if i don't back it up. I is the best movie in teh world however

Sorry, but this seems horribly wrong. With those dragons, WK's orcs are as good as toast (And as crispy as it too) To say that the sheer numbers will wipe them out is utterly illogical. Archers I can accept, but does every orc in the army carry a bow? To my knowledge, no

.
They will do a lot, but they still lost battles in Dragon lance , and most orcs do carry bows (at least in every mention of them) Also they are mortal, IE the Wk's powers can effect. Fear, Black breath, morgul blades, despair, corruption, more fear, plague, ect ect ect. Also , orcs use poison arrows, and a lot use ether arrows, darts or throwing spears, don't forget siege weapons.

honestly... I can say that this display of ignorance and "Holier than thou art" attitude surprises even me. EE, drop the self-righteous attitude, you aren't helping your case any with such declarations and drama.

There is no ignorence in defending cannon and sticking to the works of orgin. Cheating is when you ignore the works to draw your own conclusions without any basis

Yeah, I've developed that feeling in the course of many ME threads... But its part of his tactics. His main point in vs. Threads is to be stubborn and immovable until his opponents give up on him and leave, so he can claim a false victory, completely ignoring the truth of numbers which, in my oppinion, is what wins these threads. Its better to keep a cool head and try and put up a good debate, as it can actually win you your own victory. Don't back down and wait till someone else starts this up again, its better to settle it now. I see Soths chances much higher than the WKs, despite EE's claims otherwise, so I'm not backing down.

oh so when i argue on your side its different? When i'm agreeing with you on something suddenly being stubborn isn't a problem is that it? Whe we are on the same side, you never complain. What is this? You want Soth to win yes, and i admit Soth has a point, but using cross over logic. Really. You can't make a protest for cool heads and good debate until you start using ether one of those assets yourself, Steven really, your being insulting and confusing points, don't do this. You are just as damned as i am, at least i have the honesty about my stubbornness

As is aid before, Soth is powerful. He has a chance. And i said his magic might be able to hurt the Wk. It is his sword i doubt. In a one on one, Soth is a better swordsmen, and he has magic. i don't know what magic can hurt teh Wk, i wish i had more concreit stats, but he can do something. In a war situation, it isn't really a compitition, a part from Dragons they don't have very much to offer.

tyrant, thanks for drawing the same conclusions, you are a voice of sainty
from
EE

[Matar]

Doesn't this line of reasoning make any and all vs thread meaningless? I mean, using your own take, I could say Frostmourn can't harm anyone from ME because it is never seen doing so. Using your logic, we have no reason to assume any level of transparency between the worlds and can make numerous arguments for why it won't do anything. Some examples:

1) Humans from ME aren't the humans in WoW, and are therefore not to be taken to have the same limitations, vulnerabilities, etc

2) The magic that drives Frostmourn will only work on WoW creations because it was made by them to fight against them
And on and on it goes. Without assuming some level of crossover, what's the point as we could simply argue nonsense like this for pages on end? EE is stubborn and takes this farther than I would, but you're approach is insanity.

Insanity? This is VS THREADS!

I'm not going point by point, im just going to keep it simple.

It -is-confusing. Why would expect? Your merging two universes with two diffrent sets of rules. These two universes were -never- meant to be merged, the author didn't even think about it when writing it out.

An absolute means nothing when combining two worlds, it's that simple. When there is an absolute in one universe you have to understand that it won't be an absolute in another one. Is it confusing? Yes. That's why people have to work to find some common ground that they can all agree on for that debate.

If two partys are taking to absolutly diffrent stances, then they need to -both- find some middle ground to work with. However, some people are painfully stuburn and refuse to do this.

It would freeze. Using you're set up, it will freeze. The word "anything" can only be taken one way. It is a fairly all-inclusive statement. Does it make sense that it would, probably not but that's not the point. If you throw out the fact that anything is fairly absolute, then any argument you can come up with the TTGL being able to hurt the Freezy also goes right out the window.

I already covered this, but might as well restate it. Mr. Freeze was made in a Universe without Galaxy-spaning large robots that can take the full force of the big-bang and -live- without a scratch. His absolute is not absolute anymore.

[chiasaur11]

Insanity? This is VS THREADS!

I'm not going point by point, im just going to keep it simple.

It -is-confusing. Why would expect? Your merging two universes with two diffrent sets of rules. These two universes were -never- meant to be merged, the author didn't even think about it when writing it out.

An absolute means nothing when combining two worlds, it's that simple. When there is an absolute in one universe you have to understand that it won't be an absolute in another one. Is it confusing? Yes. That's why people have to work to find some common ground that they can all agree on for that debate.

If two partys are taking to absolutly diffrent stances, then they need to -both- find some middle ground to work with. However, some people are painfully stuburn and refuse to do this.



I already covered this, but might as well restate it. Mr. Freeze was made in a Universe without Galaxy-spaning large robots that can take the full force of the big-bang and -live- without a scratch. His absolute is not absolute anymore.

The real issue is how freaking Hot Blooded the TTGL crew is. Mr. Freezie is going to melt somewhere around the word "Drill".

[Mr. Scaly]

See? This is exactly why WK threads tick me off so much. Everyone starts arguing about that stupid enchantment, repeating themselves, misunderstanding what everyone else says, and the whole thread gets side tracked.



Anyway...here's the thing. Soth killed Caradoc. Caradoc was an undead skeletal knight who used to serve Soth but betrayed him and fled to Ravenloft. I don't have the book admittedly, but what else would he do after catching up to him, which he did?

And Caradoc was no pushover either. He and twelve other skeletal knights singlehandedly wiped out the Solamnic Knights that fought at Palanthas. He was bound to serve Soth out of loyalty too, not because he held the key to his immortality or something like that.

So...if Soth can kill undead like that without any special anti-undead weapons...dot dot dot...



Okay, the army battle hasn't been properly argued yet. First...how many soldiers does the WK have? And I mean 'the WK', not 'Mordor.' He's a general but he doesn't control every orc, Haradrim, troll and Easterling to ever set foot in Mordor. Hence my earlier proposal, I.E. he having the army at Pelennor...

[Steven the Lich]

Insanity? This is VS THREADS!

Seconded. You should sig that you know.

1) actually, do your research, Frostmourn origin is unknown. Check it on the wiki
2) Divine natrual armor, not protection granted by spells

1) Oh yeah, so it is. But demons forging it is a credible assumption, knowing it does chaotic damage.
2)Ummm... Whats the point? It is still divine armor, which in Warcraft terms, it would be fair to assume that such magic would be beyond or equal at least to the WK's protection. Besides, chaos damage also bypasses invulnerability, which is the ultimate spell.

1) So? God like weapon does it have the requirements needed to hurt him. Actually it does, it can hurt incorporeal beings, so no argument there, but its god powers have nothing to do with that, only its specific enchantment
2) Illidin being defeated was a close fight, but that was more about Arthas' skil, Illidin didn't have a specific protection
3) The twin blades have super powers as well, they couldn't hurt The WK because they lack any anti undead magic (while Frostmourn has the ability to hurt those without substance)

1) Alright, so it does. However, that is not a requirement. We saw Eowyn stab the WK in the face with a normal sword, did we not? Even if the shield was disabled then, would the incorporael trait of the WK not counter this? Apparently not.
2) Yeah, I realize that now. But Frostmourne had part in it and dealt a powerful blow.
3) No, I believe they could hurt the WK because of their chaotic nature. They belonged to a demon named Azzinoth, and demons are, as I mentioned, the enemy of life and creation, the essence of choas and destruction.

Yes it does, only weapons with a certain quality can hurt him. Frostmourn has that quality, which is that it can hurt incorporal creatures, but if it didn't have that abilty it couldn't do that

No, not really. That is just taking the authors words and applying them literally in another, more powerful, world. We have strong reason to presume that an epic item from a high magic setting would be more than enough to bypass the WK's barrier, regardless of magic type or abilities.

1) magic level doens't matter, its actual abilities do
2) Actually Divine magic is natrual, while hte WK has a spell, so if Frostmourn can make magical protections (like the spell armor) usless then it could break the WK's spell (never mind because it can already hurt incoporal creatures anyways but that isn't the point
3) LOTRS and Warcrafts magic levels don't matter. It is the actual abilities present that matter

1) Abilities do count, but we cannot simply toss away magic level, as it is something to consider.
2) At the very least, it should bypass the spell.
3) As i said in 1.

Does he have an establish power that can destroy protection spells? If no, can't hurt him. Might blow everything else around to pieces or could burn him to death, but direct attacks, can't hurt him

Magic smagic, its a pure energy attack capable of destroying planets, I think shattering a magic shield is not out of the question.

Raistalin. Don't make me laugh, your losing all of your credibility. Rastalin is a god powered mage, with specific powers that can destory universes, no chance there

Hold it there. You never said anything about in in the piece of your posts I was responding to. Raistalin... I don't doubt he could cremate the WK, along with countless others. He is not the only one who can do it, however. I was simply saying that someone with Frostmourne could defeat the WK, just as you said someone with Ashbringer could kill him. Frostmourne is of origins unknown, while Ashbringer is man made, so it is fair to assume Frostbringer stronger (Though Ashbringer is the weapon of choice against undead). I said I could see someone defeat the WK utterly with Frostmourne, granted not some random hobo, but a well trained knight or something could do it.

We are using their established powers. I mean, if Frostmourn is taking out of its setting, it still works like Frostmourn. Or are you saying that it wouldn't work against somebody from another setting simply because writers of warcraft didn't consider it.

What I am saying is you are taking Tolkiens words into another world and saying no weapon from that world, save holy ones, can damage the WK. This simply cannot be done, because it could be a world of greater magic, with stronger weapons than ME, with god-like enchants. Are you catching my point?

It was refering to the sword, not the hobbit. Bitter means pain you realize

1. having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.
2. producing one of the four basic taste sensations; not sour, sweet, or salt.
3. hard to bear; grievous; distressful: a bitter sorrow.
4. causing pain; piercing; stinging: a bitter chill.
5. characterized by intense antagonism or hostility: bitter hatred.
6. hard to admit or accept: a bitter lesson.
7. resentful or cynical: bitter words.

Not just pain. It involves distastefulness, taste sensations, hard to bear (Which could be the one in use in the sentence), intense hostility, something hard to accept, or resentful. Now, 1 and 2 and 6 may be out of the question, the remaining though are plausible.

1) It wasn't actually, and it didn't slice his finger, Sauron didn't have a barrier (he lost his at the breaking of the world). The Wk is a different type of being than Sauron with a different type of shield
2) tolkien is infamous for including exceptions, and he said "no other blade" If he would have made an exception, he would have included

1) Wait... what? I thought a shard of it was used by Isildur to cut off the ring-finger. Seriously, I was under the assumption that Sauron spreaded to the four winds because his ring was separated from him. And I'm pretty darn sure there was something about the flame of the Valar being involved with it, as a powerful enchantment or something. And apoligies, I didn't know he was without his barrier during that battle (Though it does bring a question to mind... why did Sauron go out on a battlefield when there was a chance he would be wounded or something?).
2) But he had absolutely no knowledge about literature today. His exceptions would have only been in Middle Earth anyway, and is one of the only places it is viable. I am making a fantasy world myself, and I believe some of the weapons I have in it are capable of harming the WK, if they were ever used against him. Tolkien made no exception for them, however. He can't make a exception. Is my word meaningless?

They will do a lot, but they still lost battles in Dragon lance , and most orcs do carry bows (at least in every mention of them) Also they are mortal, IE the Wk's powers can effect. Fear, Black breath, morgul blades, despair, corruption, more fear, plague, ect ect ect. Also , orcs use poison arrows, and a lot use ether arrows, darts or throwing spears, don't forget siege weapons.

I don't doubt that. But dragons are a huge advantage. As for the WK's abilities against them... don't dragons have a strong magic resistance? Or is Dragon Lance an exception?

There is no ignorence in defending cannon and sticking to the works of orgin. Cheating is when you ignore the works to draw your own conclusions without any basis

But there is ignorance in blindly following it to the degree of refusing the effectiveness of foreign powers, for good example Frostmourne's chaotic divine penetrating powers not being able to overcome the WK's blade because cannon states no other blade but one can penetrate it (If frostmourne was not to have this wraith harming ability).

oh so when i argue on your side its different? When i'm agreeing with you on something suddenly being stubborn isn't a problem is that it? Whe we are on the same side, you never complain. What is this? You want Soth to win yes, and i admit Soth has a point, but using cross over logic. Really. You can't make a protest for cool heads and good debate until you start using ether one of those assets yourself, Steven really, your being insulting and confusing points, don't do this. You are just as damned as i am, at least i have the honesty about my stubbornness

Woah, chill man. I honestly don't take as much notice when your on my side, since my main focus is to convince my opponents my views and score the win.
I think you are misinterpretting his point altogether and stretching it to make it seem unbelievable. I agree with him on the Mr. Freeze vs. the giant robot, because the giant robot has altogether more strength and resistance. He may have no specific protection, but he did survive an energy out-put matching the big bang, so I strongly believe that counts for something. There is no specific protection, because the authors hardly ever compare worlds, but that doesn't mean the abilities automatically suceed, because there may be other factors chipping in, which is very well the case.
How am I being insulting? I am just saying that its your favorite tactic, being stubborn enough to make the other side go away, and you stated this yourself back in the LK vs. Sauron thread. I wasn't even directing this at you, or anywhere near you. But sorry if you viewed it that way, as it wasn't my intention.
How am I confusing my points? What I said seems pretty clear to me.
I know I'm stubborn. I'm not denying it. Heck, its one of the things that kept the LK vs. Sauron thread going. Its a gift and a curse in itself. I however would like to state I don't solely rely on my stuborness to win an argument. I just like to be persistent.