Diamond Mind maneuvers affected by crits?

[Frosty]

What kind of damage does the attack from Greaer Insightful Strike do? Does it count as normal damage or does it count as extra damage above a weapon's normal damage when calculating damage from a critical hit?

One of my level 11 PCs has Improved Critical and Power Critical with a Falchion and can easily do 100 or more damage on a critical hit (in fact, 96 is the minimum I believe). He once one-shotted an enemy mage that was supposed to pester them for a while. I have since ruled that on a crit, the 1d20 on the Concentration check is not multipled, since it's not a fixed amount (it's a dice roll) and it's not the weapon damage. In other words, if he crits with a Greater Insight Strike, he only gets 92 + 2d20 instead of 92 + 4d20. Is this ruling RAW? Is it fair?

[Vexxation]

If this attack hits, you do not deal normal damage. Instead, you make a concentration check and deal damage equal to the result.

This seems to indicate that the Falchion's weapon damage (the 92 points) isn't even dealt. Instead, he'll deal 2(d20 + Concentration score). Strength, other effects, all left out.

So on a critical, it makes sense that it would double to 4(d20 + Concentration Score).

Wow... that maneuver kinda sucks if you can deal such massive damage...

[ArmorArmadillo]

Well, if I understand the rules correctly. The concentration check is not a "damage roll" per se, it is a skill check, and you replace the damage roll with, so your manuever does not do (d20+Mod)x2 damage, you roll that number, double it, and use that flat number as your damage.
So, by RAW, the whole shebang would be doubled on a crit.
And he wouldn't roll the concentration check four times, he'd roll it once, and that would be quadrupled.
It's not two concentration checks, it's twice your concentration check.

As for fair, in all honestly the bulk of his damage is going to come from his modifier, not the roll. So, really, you're not going to be reducing his output by much.

Consider it:
2d20+92 averages to 113 damage, and 4d20+92 averages to 134; it's a damage difference of 21 points, less than 1/5 the average.

[Frosty]

Right. It's only a20% reduction, but he was getting crits left and right, and leaving the dragon shaman in the dust, and making it hard for me to balance encounters. I mean, do I have to bring in more enemies just so the fight won't end so quickly? As it is, I've had to bring in clerics with DMM (quicken) so they can cast offensive spells *and* cast Heal as a quickened spell every now and then.

[Vexxation]

Right. It's only a20% reduction, but he was getting crits left and right, and leaving the dragon shaman in the dust, and making it hard for me to balance encounters. I mean, do I have to bring in more enemies just so the fight won't end so quickly? As it is, I've had to bring in clerics with DMM (quicken) so they can cast offensive spells *and* cast Heal as a quickened spell every now and then.

Well, the problem isn't the maneuver, because like I said, the maneuver doesn't modify his damage, it replaces it.

In other words, where he would normally deal 2d4 + Str + Enhancement + Whatever, he now deals a flat 2(d20 + Concentration Modifier). You don't add the Concentration check result to his base damage. It replaces any damage he would do.

It's really not powerful for him to use the maneuver at all.

[Frosty]

Right. It's still pretty powerful for this level because some major enemies only have like 90 HP. Being able to one-shot what amounts to an Elite or a boss at the end of a dungeon is bit too annoying at the moment.

2 (1d20+ Concentration) multiplied by 2 with a crit is more than anything anybody else can hope to do right now except the Wizard's Maximized Disintegrate...and he can do it with regularity. I know this maneuver isn't great a thigher levels, but at level 11 it's very devastating. I'll need to throw alot more critters at them from now on so the encounter doesn't end prematurely. Or bring in things that can't be critted.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Level 11. His concentration should be 14(ranks)+4(Con)+5(Item)+2(feat), or 25, max. No synergy, no economical way to boost the item or con without either multi-classing or spending way too much. (25+1d20)*2=71. I don't get where the massivedamage is coming from. Yes, 71 is high, but that's boosted as much as it can be without it being a nerf to the character as a whole. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem or something, but I don't see 96 even possible there(max is 90).

[ArmorArmadillo]

Level 11. His concentration should be 14(ranks)+4(Con)+5(Item)+2(feat), or 25, max. No synergy, no economical way to boost the item or con without either multi-classing or spending way too much. (25+1d20)*2=71. I don't get where the massivedamage is coming from. Yes, 71 is high, but that's boosted as much as it can be without it being a nerf to the character as a whole. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem or something, but I don't see 96 even possible there(max is 90).

He's talking about critting.

As for outdamaging your Dragon Shaman...Warblades are a generally better class, and are much better damage dealers. This parts a bit inevitable.

@ Vexxation: Insightful and Greater Insightful Strike are both excellent maneuvers. Although you can't add your strength or weapon damage to it, the massive amount of damage you are doing more than compensates.


The problem here is that your player really isn't doing anything crazy in terms of comboing or minmaxing. He's using a very powerful maneuver, and working to crit often. It'd be easier if it were a hideous abusive combo you could reasonably ban.


It's a hard fix, but I'd say your best bit is to focus on:
1) Larger groups of enemies to minimize the importance of killing one.
2) Crit immune enemies, such as constructs, undead, incorporeal, and plant monsters.
3) High AC or HP monsters to withstand the high damage output.
4) Flying or evasive enemies which he can't reliably hit with a melee weapon.


If you wanted to nerf the power, the most reasonable thing would be to say that crits just plain don't multiply the damage on GIS. This will really really make him mad though, and justifiably so since he built his character to take advantage of this mechanic.

[Frosty]

Yeah...I'll throw in a few crit-immune monsters in there. I'll need to have my enemies start wearing some Medium-fortification armor as well.

[Chronos]

He's talking about critting.

Right, without the crit it'd be just 1d20+25. Remember, a falchion only does double damage on a crit, not quadruple.

[Frosty]

Right, without the crit it'd be just 1d20+25. Remember, a falchion only does double damage on a crit, not quadruple.

GREATER Insightful Strike Defaults to 2x 1d20+concentration. With a Crit that is doubled AGAIN.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Right, without the crit it'd be just 1d20+25. Remember, a falchion only does double damage on a crit, not quadruple.

x2. This is Greater Insightful Strike, which is doubled automatically, then the crit doubles it again. I'm not sure if it would be RAW or a houserule, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to only get Conc check x3 on a crit. After all, that could be considered "stacking multipliers". May make it reasonable. Also, just out of curiosity, what is his Conc score? That will at least help with the math.

[Frosty]

x2. This is Greater Insightful Strike, which is doubled automatically, then the crit doubles it again. I'm not sure if it would be RAW or a houserule, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to only get Conc check x3 on a crit. After all, that could be considered "stacking multipliers". May make it reasonable. Also, just out of curiosity, what is his Conc score? That will at least help with the math.

I forgot exactly, but being a warforged, he maxed out Con so has a base 20 con. He bought an item of Con +6, and he used his Stat boosts every 4 levels on Con, so he has a Con of 28 right now.

14 ranks + 3 Sklill Focus (Concentration) + 9 ability bonus = 26

I think perhaps 3x will be the best way to adjudicate it.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I think perhaps 3x will be the best way to adjudicate it.

It probably is. Although, I'd just note that by RAW it doesn't work that way.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It probably is. Although, I'd just note that by RAW it doesn't work that way.

Why? Not protesting, just curious, as I thought the stacking multiplier rules always applied unless it specifically said otherwise.

[AstralFire]

Level 11. His concentration should be 14(ranks)+4(Con)+5(Item)+2(feat), or 25, max. No synergy, no economical way to boost the item or con without either multi-classing or spending way too much. (25+1d20)*2=71. I don't get where the massivedamage is coming from. Yes, 71 is high, but that's boosted as much as it can be without it being a nerf to the character as a whole. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem or something, but I don't see 96 even possible there(max is 90).

IIRC Autohypnosis synergizes with Concentration and it's a decent skill to grab. Requires being Psionic though.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Why? Not protesting, just curious, as I thought the stacking multiplier rules always applied unless it specifically said otherwise.

Because you aren't stacking multipliers, they apply to different things, even if they're effectively the same.

GIS Multiplies your Concentration check, and then that replaces your damage roll.

Critical Hit multiplies your damage roll.

Let's say you rolled a concentration check of 20. GIS Multiplies that to 40, and 40 replaces your weapon damage.
Critical Hit, however, only "sees" the 40 damage, which it multiplies to 80, and not the concentration check.

[skywalker]

Why? Not protesting, just curious, as I thought the stacking multiplier rules always applied unless it specifically said otherwise.

Because the multiplication is part of the base power? It's not based on something situational(like a critical, or being on a charging horse with a lance, spirited charge, etc.)?

[Treguard]

I don't agree with penalising his damage output, just because his build follows a certain direction and is, unsurprisingly, effective at what he now does. If he doesn't agree to the alteration then it's kinda like he's painted himself into a corner. I personally prefer the non-restrictive countermeasures that ArmorArmadillo listed as they should promote a change of tactics within the player (say, not always relying on GIS) without directly pointing out the fault in the player's build/strategy.