117 The Battle for Gobwin Knob 105

[fendrin]

That karate example is terrible. Sure sparring the kid controls it all and dominates.. but in an actual fight? the adult would crush him.

You weren't there. The Adult barely got a single hit in, but was knocked to his knees twice. Consider that Parson is even less skilled than the green belt and using deadly weaponry and Parson's size will be no help.

[Justyn]

You weren't there. The Adult barely got a single hit in, but was knocked to his knees twice. Consider that Parson is even less skilled than the green belt and using deadly weaponry and Parson's size will be no help.

Hiding near the top of a stair case and kicking someone down it, or sneaking up or someone and cracking open their skull with something big and heavy are both things that don't take much martial skill. But other then that, yeah, Parson is booped if he gets into melee.

[LordVader]

To quote Master Yoda: "Size matters not! Judge me by my size, do you?"

To put it another way, I once saw a 10 year old black belt utterly destroy an adult greenbelt in kumite (sparring in karate, if you are unfamiliar with the term). The greenbelt was about 10 years older, a good 2+ feet taller and probably upwards of 50 pounds heavier, all of which was from height and muscle. It was all the greenbelt could do to block and evade the jumping kicks aimed at his head. The 10 year old was in total control of the situation.

This is true, but I'd imagine Parson's in the order of 300 pounds heavier than a lot of average Erfworlders, and a LOT taller. Plus, his weapon whatever it is will have far greater reach than any ErfWorlder weapon, enabling him to slaughter basic infantry fairly easily I'd imagine. Plus, an adult is going to be somewhat reluctant to hit a ten-year-old, while a ten-year-old will harbor no reservations against the adult, so there's a psychological disadvantage there as well.

Still, I don't expect Parson to get stuck in either so it's a moot point.

[OnDroid]

But just imagine Parson in full armor rolling down a tunnel over the Marbit forces. THAT alone would change a whole battle.

[LordVader]

Even better, Parson in a giant hamster ball crushing Marbits.
Hilarious, ironic, and generally awesome.

[The Old Hack]

Well, it may be that the sword will either be able to grant the wielder fighting skill or alternately will control itself. It still might not be enough to make him a master warrior, but it would be a big help.

[SteveMB]

Continuing to work for Stanley would be a bit difficult if Stanley found out that he'd offered the Arkenpliers to Charlie (and it would obviously be even worse if Charlie actually ends up in possession of it).

Um, that was not how I read it. I saw it as Parson saying, "If you hold off one turn, I'll beat Ansom and be in possession of the Arkenpliers, and then you can grab both them and the gauntlet off of me if you have the balls to try." He wasn't offering a deal. He was trying to convince Charlie that he would be able to get greater benefits from attacking if only he just waited a turn.

What matters here isn't the reasonable way to interpret it -- what matters here is how Stanley would see it, which is often a very different thing.

[Nargrakhan]

To put it another way, I once saw a 10 year old black belt utterly destroy an adult greenbelt in kumite (sparring in karate, if you are unfamiliar with the term).

I've seen many a bar fight, where individuals skilled in martial arts, get their butts handed to them by a guy with significantly less formal training, simply from superior physical stature. Primarily the advantages of arm reach, weight, raw strength, and pain threshold.

There was this one time my ship did a port visit in Taiwan, where a Marine simply power slammed some fellow who did several impressive kicks on him. That Marine got a broken jaw and a fractured rib in the process, but the Taiwanese was knocked unconscious – and the service member still took out another person a few short seconds later.

Were they on equal grounds physically, the Marine would have clearly lost, but that wasn't the case. Fighting isn't always about skill. Unbridled power is just as effective and deadly. Having kicked ass and gotten my ass kicked many times in return: mad skillz aren't everything.

For a more famous example, see Bob Sapp in his early K-1 career. Zero skilled dude, who beat down guys with black belts and years of fighting experience. It was brute power, pure and simple. Didn't last long of course (he was a one trick pony).

[Aquillion]

There was this one time my ship did a port visit in Taiwan, where a Marine simply power slammed some fellow who did several impressive kicks on him. That Marine got a broken jaw and a fractured rib in the process, but the Taiwanese was knocked unconscious – and the service member still took out another person a few short seconds later.

Were they on equal grounds physically, the Marine would have clearly lost, but that wasn't the case. Fighting isn't always about skill. Unbridled power is just as effective and deadly. Having kicked ass and gotten my ass kicked many times in return: mad skillz aren't everything.

Yeah, but the Marine (presumably) knew the basics of how to handle himself in a fight. Parson doesn't seem like someone who would know anything along those lines at all.

Granted, he might magically have skills he lacked before; we don't know his stats. But another important point: Creatures Parson's size aren't that rare in Erfworld. He's about the size of a Twoll. Twolls are probably nasty, but Jillian had no problem killing one in a single hit; while she's high-level, it can be assumed that they're still not that tough.

Basically, compare Parson to Bogroll -- they're the same size, but Bogroll was popped to fight, has regeneration, and so on. If you ignore the weapon and Parson's "special" status, you'd expect Bogroll to be obviously more powerful; and nobody is suggesting that Bogroll is an amazing unit (his stats looked a bit low.) Parson's size might make him a bit less useless than the random fat guy he'd be in our world, but it's not going to make him an unholy terror on the battlefield; going by the fight we saw earlier, Jillian could still one-hit him if the size is all he's got.

But finally: It's not real life. Stats are what matters, not size. We don't know Parson's stats.

[tanonx]

Hm... Well, while his stature is doable as a fair advantage, this leads me to wonder how fighting in Erfworld actually works. We've seen combat go down in what seems to be real time, but everyone's got hard and fast stats, solid enough to be calculated. Are they just measures of martial prowess? Do units have the skill required in power-counter tecniques required to divert 300 pounds of sword-swinging?

It all really boils down to how much 'realworld' skills would matter in Erfworld combat. If stats were hard-and-fast immutables, Parson could bring down a few by force, or a lot more by ingenuity, depending on just how far outside the standard rules he could act. For instance, does he find himself incapable to act when it's not his turn? He can walk around the city, can he walk outside and set up traps before heading back in to avoid retaliation?

[Caledonian]

I will note: Parson's computations presumably only involve GK's current forces and powers.

But he's been getting a fragment of his sword with every meal - and breakfast hasn't come for his side yet.

What will the next Stupid Meal hold?

[tanonx]

One could always hold out for a shield, but I think when that last sword fragment comes, his time for planning will be up. On the upside, at least Stupid Meal toys are useful outside entertaining small children.

[fendrin]

I've seen many a bar fight, where individuals skilled in martial arts, get their butts handed to them by a guy with significantly less formal training, simply from superior physical stature. Primarily the advantages of arm reach, weight, raw strength, and pain threshold.

For starters, most martial arts students are not trained to fight. They may be taught 'moves' that would be useful in a fight, but they are typically not trained how to use them in a fight. As one guy I trained under who had been a professional MMA fighter said, "The first thing that happens in a fight is that you forget everything you know about how to fight."

For a more famous example, see Bob Sapp in his early K-1 career. Zero skilled dude, who beat down guys with black belts and years of fighting experience. It was brute power, pure and simple. Didn't last long of course (he was a one trick pony).

Ah, but stature does not equal power. Parson has stature, he does not have brute power (assuming his stats are a reflection of his capabilities, and not counting the effects of any items or spells that may be cast on him). Remember that Stanley's parameters for the summoning were based on appearance, not actual capability.

[Zolem]

Ah, but stature does not equal power. Parson has stature, he does not have brute power (assuming his stats are a reflection of his capabilities, and not counting the effects of any items or spells that may be cast on him). Remember that Stanley's parameters for the summoning were based on appearance, not actual capability.

And let's not forget the increadible amount of skill it takes to actually fight with a sword. He'd be better off with a mace, spear, ax, dagger, or crossbow, cause all those require less than 1/10th of the skill a sword demands of a wielder to ensure they don't injure themselves or others.

[fendrin]

And let's not forget the increadible amount of skill it takes to actually fight with a sword. He'd be better off with a mace, spear, ax, dagger, or crossbow, cause all those require less than 1/10th of the skill a sword demands of a wielder to ensure they don't injure themselves or others.

True, though initial comment was about how his physical stature might benefit him in combat, not necessarily with his soon-to-be-complete sword (which is almost guaranteed to be magical in some way.

[Lamech]

We really have no clue how useful Parson would be in a fight, first off we don't know what special powers he all acquired when he came to Erfworld. Note, how he now some how makes anyone he's commanding a better fighter, he didn't do that back on earth. Maybe he has regeneration, like Bogroll he could heal back on earth, maybe the white blood cells will eat away enemies if they touch them, or maybe he'll be cut to pieces. Unfortunately things like the sore legs and the headache he had, means he can be hurt, so stabbing him should stop Parson the same as it would have on earth.
Another thing is how units will react to him, what will warlords think? Will he be auto-attacked? It might allow him to be stealthy, "ohh thats just a human sized rock.
Finally, we don't know how powerful that sword is? Maybe its an unblockable sword of instant death (which would be bad for anyone who doesn't know whats going on). Maybe its only a Parson sized magical sword.

I doubt he will be a major "god of war", but he just might be able to stop say a lone marbit about to croak Sizemore.

[Doctor Zuber]

Wow, I really must say, I thought better of Charlie than this. I'm quite dissapointed in Charlie now. I'm kind of obligated to hate him now in fact. If he really wanted Parsons services he should have helped him, not threatened him. Good job Charlie, you have now made an enemy of Parson when you easily could have had a friend.

It's also a bit painful to hear Parson quote back his own odds so coldly. Those aren't odds I would want in Parsons position, I'm sure he's still scratching his head trying to find ways to improve his chances further. But they are at least slightly in his favor.

On the other Hand, knowing Parson can use that freely, Being able to run the odds on any battle at any time is going to go a long ways to help him figure out any other suprises in the rules before tripping over them. If Parson gets help from any direction here, Anson is about to be in for a nightmare.

[Faithless]

I've seen many a bar fight, where individuals skilled in martial arts, get their butts handed to them by a guy with significantly less formal training, simply from superior physical stature. Primarily the advantages of arm reach, weight, raw strength, and pain threshold.

There was this one time my ship did a port visit in Taiwan, where a Marine simply power slammed some fellow who did several impressive kicks on him. That Marine got a broken jaw and a fractured rib in the process, but the Taiwanese was knocked unconscious – and the service member still took out another person a few short seconds later.

Were they on equal grounds physically, the Marine would have clearly lost, but that wasn't the case. Fighting isn't always about skill. Unbridled power is just as effective and deadly. Having kicked ass and gotten my ass kicked many times in return: mad skillz aren't everything.

For a more famous example, see Bob Sapp in his early K-1 career. Zero skilled dude, who beat down guys with black belts and years of fighting experience. It was brute power, pure and simple. Didn't last long of course (he was a one trick pony).

Let's not forget that parson is the only one that gets tired from moving around. Unlike other units in Erfworld he is limited by his energy not the amount of move he has left. I suppose a couple of Ephedra spells could keep him fighitng if he needs to.

[Doctor Zuber]

Charlie asked Parsons odds of winning - he did not ask about the exact plan...

What if Parsons plan actually includes Charlie's archons fighting Ansom's troops and destroying each other ? So at the end, when Parsons wins, both Ansom and Charlie are too weakened to cause trouble .... That would be a master plan for sure, worth 300k shmuckers.

"I gave you the odds - they were real - you did not ask me if you will be there too to capture me "

Very True. Charlie has no idea what Parson has planned. And undoubtedly Parson is even now dancing new ideas around in that brain of his as to how he can use Charlies very presence here to tilt the odds further in his favor.

Presumably he can't. Don't forget that Parson himself told Charlie how many archons he'd need to take the city, and that was presumably taking into account all the air defences; and in any case, Wanda seems to have used up pretty much all of those in taking down the flying units a few comics ago.

You're apparently not paying attention to the turn order. Ansom, Transylvito, Charlie, then Parson... It's Parsons turns next, and all of his units are free to move again. Charlie just ended turn in the space and is agreeing to pass the turn.

Put one over on Stanley? Charlie wouldn't even have to try. It would be as easy as lyin'.

I don't think Charlie lies. He just witholds a lot of information and lets people make false assumptions about him. Stanley isn't even close to smart enough to come out of a deal with Charlie with anything intact at the end. And I rather doubt Parson is going to be nearly as willing to cut deals with Charlie in the future now that he has shown his true colors here. Not saying he won't deal at all, but he'll be a lot more careful about it.

[LordVader]

Wow, I really must say, I thought better of Charlie than this. I'm quite dissapointed in Charlie now. I'm kind of obligated to hate him now in fact. If he really wanted Parsons services he should have helped him, not threatened him. Good job Charlie, you have now made an enemy of Parson when you easily could have had a friend.
.

Don't hate him, he's the penultimate mercenary. Playing both sides off one another is good for him, he makes more money that way.

And he already pointed out why he can't exactly intervene against the RCC in combat, as regardless of the terms of his contract or not, people will still be suspicious of him if he broke an understanding and betrayed his former allies almost immediately. He's definitely a Magnificent Bastard, but I don't see that he's Parson's personal enemy either.

[Doctor Zuber]

"Tell me your odds of not losing the city on this coming turn." - CharlesNChrg
"Of not losing? If Stanley lives, and you don't interfere . . . 58.9%" -LordHampster

Notice what Parson has done here, he cleverly changed the question before making the calculation. As several people have pointed out, the mere fact that Charlie is parked in the hex is going to get Ansom wondering. Since Ansom is expecting Charlie to be with Transylvito out to croak Stanley, seeing Charlies forces all massed at GK is definatelly going to raise an eyebrow. What remains to be seen, is how Ansom is going to react to this one. Charlie may well have unwittingly improved Parsons odds of success here quite signifigantly.

Meanwhile, There is still the matter of Stanley. Parson is probably unaware of what Transylvito has sent, so he may not really know what the odds are in that direction. True Charlie backed down, and may have revealed at least some of the plan there, but there's definatelly some room for doubt there.

[Justyn]

You're apparently not paying attention to the turn order. Ansom, Transylvito, Charlie, then Parson... It's Parsons turns next, and all of his units are free to move again. Charlie just ended turn in the space and is agreeing to pass the turn.

The original turn order was: Plaid - Jetstone/coalition.

Then it became -Transylvito - Plaid - Jetstone/coalition- when Transylvito became an independant side.

Then the turn order again changed -Transylvito - Charlescomm - Plaid - Jetstone/coalition- because of Charlie's Magnificent Bastardry.

[SteveMB]

You're apparently not paying attention to the turn order. Ansom, Transylvito, Charlie, then Parson... It's Parsons turns next, and all of his units are free to move again. Charlie just ended turn in the space and is agreeing to pass the turn.

Ansom's turn is at the end of the day, not the beginning. Parson (and Stanley) move next, and then the Coalition units at GK.

[Doctor Zuber]

meh, alright, moot point though. it's still the same sequence regardless of where the sun is in the sky. Point remains that Charlie ends turn now, Parson moves next and his units refresh. While there may have been casualties from Wandas attack, after the battle Wanda turned all the croaked into uncroaked. If anything, I think the Plaid airforce is actually stronger than it was last turn. As soon as charlie ends the turn, all those units refresh ready to fight.

[ishnar]

It's also a bit painful to hear Parson quote back his own odds so coldly. Those aren't odds I would want in Parsons position, I'm sure he's still scratching his head trying to find ways to improve his chances further. But they are at least slightly in his favor.

I think those odds are "autoresolve" odds. I've been playing Rome: Total War lately and consider it one of the best strategy games I've ever played. Basic setup of the game is Civ like generally, but when you fight the battles, you don't have to auto-resolve like in Civ, you can choose to control the battle personally instead, although the auto-resolve option is still available if you consider battle not worth leading personally.

Controlling the battle personally, I've been able to fight with a force of about 200 against a force of about 900, route and slaughter my enemy nearly to the last man.

Basically, I'm saying my auto-resolve odds were pretty pathetic, but by leading the enemy out of position, doing flank attacks, and doing other attacks specifically to hurt the enemy's moral, I was able to turn a hopeless fight into an undisputed win.

I think that most of these warlords are used to auto-resolving battles. So they will be unprepared for what kind of advantage personal control gives. This doesn't apply to our favorite barbarian girl though. I think one of the reasons she's an outcast is because she is always doing this "extra unnecessary work" of personally directing her stack in battle. Instead of just telling the stack who to fight and letting them do their thing.

This will probably cause even more strife than she already has with Caesar, the level 10 or better warlord, when in battle he auto-resolves the upcomming fight trusting in his leadership bonus, but Stanley gets away anyway because he does not auto-resolve at his end.

[The Old Hack]

What matters here isn't the reasonable way to interpret it -- what matters here is how Stanley would see it, which is often a very different thing.

This is true. I admit, I have had a certain scenario in mind for a while now: Parson somehow holding GK, beating Ansom, taking the Arkenpliers and handing it all to Stanley on a silver platter -- and Stanley getting mad over some small detail and disbanding/banishing Parson anyway.

[Doctor Zuber]

I can kind of see this of Stanley too. Well, sort of. If Parson hands him all the goodies on a silver platter, Stanley will be instantly impressed, happy and bouncing up and down, blah blah.... But Stanley could very easily reverse his opinion completely 5 seconds later for some random thing like, oh.... seeing Charlies forces hanging out next to GK for example.

It's how Stanley is. When he's happy, he's happy. When he's mad, he's mad. And he has no problem whatsoever in changing his mood instantly for almost any reason at all.

[Oracle_Hunter]

You seem to be assuming that Parson engineered this situation. His comments to Wanda in panel 11 of this strip indicate that he feels used, not that he tricked Charlie into coming.

And that is why Parson is not the Magnificent Bastard of Erfworld. For awhile, he was but once you are played you stop being a Magnificent Bastard. Now, if Parson comes out on top and at least equal with Charlie (so, not as a minion), then he gets his crown back.

[MuseUnchained]

No, it's not necessary. But you would be surprised to find the advantages of NOT treating people like walking crap just because you can. Or the next time you will be on a dragon neck trying to figure the name of a wizard that is working for you by years.
There is a deep line between "Parson, I decided to take you on my side. Please, don't have me attack, neither of us would enjoy it. Do you really want to die for Stanley?" and "Bark dog, the master is in the house!".

Wow, I really must say, I thought better of Charlie than this. I'm quite dissapointed in Charlie now. I'm kind of obligated to hate him now in fact. If he really wanted Parsons services he should have helped him, not threatened him. Good job Charlie, you have now made an enemy of Parson when you easily could have had a friend.

Now to me, this seems to be incredibly naive and at the least assuming that Charlie is willing to treat Parson as an equal. At this point in time, he is NOT an equal, nowhere near. Parson wouldn't still be in the game if not for Charlie being willing to pull out of an arrangement (and that's what he did making the Don an offer he couldn't accept) and Charlie has more than enough resources to crush Parson. Parson owes Charlie a huge favour and he has some way to go to pay for that.

Not that I say that I like Charlie's actions, but he is a mercenary, the top in the business it would seem. He is looking out for one man and one man only, Charlie. Witty banter aside, the fact that he seems to like Parson aside, this is the overiding fact that has to be considered.

I think that Parson just earned some major brownie points for being in a position where the odds are in his favour, even if they are reliant on Charlie not interfering. Charlie might even admit that at the current moment, he doesn't know why the odds are even marginally in Parson's favour. But there is only one top dog in this relationship and it would be unwise to forget that. Charlie acts the way he is because there is no one who can stop him. For there to be the respect that you seem to think Parson is owed, Parson has to earn it, he has to be near the level that Charlie is at and that is some way off at this current time.

[teratorn]

I really hate tvtroopes or whatever is the name of the thing. All this talk about Magnificent Bastards is getting on my nerves. One of the things I like about Erfworld is that the character's roles are not as simple as that.

Parson is not and never was magnificent, he's just trying to survive without giving up on this battle.