Will Webinar and his girlfriend survive?

[Daran]

What do you guys/gals think?
I sure hope they won't die

[CaptC]

At least one will. Quite likely both. Parson's plan is appropriate. Note that Parson has detailed two ways to kill high value targets. Just as a guess, Dora dies in the first tunnel collapse, Sizemore kills Webinar in combat.

[Lex-Kat]

I think the opposite. Dora survives, but Webinar dies. Then Dora avenges Webinar, by killing Sizemore.

I don't believe Sizemore will survive an attack by either of them. He's a dirtamancer, killing all of Jetstones forces wouild make it too easy for Parson to win.

And of course, Parson will be the only winner of this strip, when everything is done.

[Generalissimus]

I think one of them will be captured, and the other will sirvive.

[CaptC]

Yeah, the interesting thing is that the rules that let a Warlord pick targets apparently allows for assassination runs. Webinar or Dora could certainly die heroically while taking out Sizemore.

Then eveyrone loses something. In fact, that's possibly the easiest plot twist that gives Parson a black eye. It can't go all his way, he has to lose something, and the item of most value that Parson currently has at risk is Sizemore.

[Daran]

Hmmm
I guess one of the two sides has to loose something. There seems no way around it - it's war after all.
But Sizemore? Nooo ... he's my fav. char!

[Johel]

Sizemore is only there to activate the traps and to command the golems, right ? No need for him to fight on the first line.

I think Jetstone will just lose two commanders. Both of them die.
There will still be occasions for Sizemore to die during the wall fight.

[CaptC]

<--- I kinda like him too. Unfortunately, Webinar and Sizemore are facing off. Not gonna end well for one or the other, or both.

Why do the bald guys have to go <ahem> head to head? Another reason I sympathize with them...

[Moechi_Vill]

What do you guys/gals think?
I sure hope they won't die

I sure hope they die ~grins~

[CaptC]

Sizemore is only there to activate the traps and to command the golems, right ? No need for him to fight on the first line.

I think Jetstone will just lose two commanders. Both of them die.
There will still be occasions for Sizemore to die during the wall fight.

Parson specifically has ordered that high value enemy units be trapped by collapses, or directed to Sizemore. Sizemore is therefore, clearly, on the front lines. And if that isn't enough foreshadowing to mean we are gonna see Sizemore in combat in the tunnels, with his nice new glowy shovel, I don't know what is.

[Moechi_Vill]

At least one will. Quite likely both. Parson's plan is appropriate. Note that Parson has detailed two ways to kill high value targets. Just as a guess, Dora dies in the first tunnel collapse, Sizemore kills Webinar in combat.

That sounds about right.
... Sizemore dies, hating Parson?
That'd be quite the screamer. Very satisfying; war comes at a cost. An honest warhawk of most sorts will admit that.

I hope the redhead survives.

[Zolem]

Parson specifically has ordered that high value enemy units be trapped by collapses, or directed to Sizemore. Sizemore is therefore, clearly, on the front lines. And if that isn't enough foreshadowing to mean we are gonna see Sizemore in combat in the tunnels, with his nice new glowy shovel, I don't know what is.

We get to see his golem army fight? I mena, warlords can selectivly attack, but only if they can get to the guy to begin with.

[CaptC]

We get to see his golem army fight? I mena, warlords can selectivly attack, but only if they can get to the guy to begin with.

Golems get bonuses when led by a dirtomancer. I read that to mean they need to be in the same stack. Leading high value units to Sizemore means that Parson's most powerful stack is supposed to take them out. That would be Sizemore plus golems.

Never fear, Sizemore is on the front lines and as such, is in real danger.

[docstrange]

Parson specifically has ordered that high value enemy units be trapped by collapses, or directed to Sizemore. Sizemore is therefore, clearly, on the front lines. And if that isn't enough foreshadowing to mean we are gonna see Sizemore in combat in the tunnels, with his nice new glowy shovel, I don't know what is.

Sizemore does not have orders to "croak not capture", as far as we've seen. If he can help GK win without killing them, he won't kill them.

[CaptC]

I'm not denying that capture is a possibility. Sizemore has been set up with a conflict about killing, so capturing a warlord helps him with that morally.

But you can bet that Dora and Webinar are going to be trying to kill Sizemore. And while Sizemore is formidable in the tunnels, he's outnumbered dramatically. I don't see capture as something you try to do in an even fight, it's only viable if you have overwhelming force. (See the panel about Jillian's capture.)

Lastly, this is the big fight to the death. The police aren't trying to capture the bad guy to put him on trial. This is WAR. Red, raw, bloody war. Nobody is trying to capture anyone anymore.

[Lamech]

I'm thinking Webinar and Dora will beshot like shaggy dogs. Even if they are captured it would make sense to turn them in to uncroaked.

I really don't think they have a chance. Injured infantry vs. boostes heavies, and someone who can drop big rocks on their heads, it just isn't happening. The coalition doesn't much of a chance anymore...

[CaptC]

I really don't think they have a chance. Injured infantry vs. boostes heavies, and someone who can drop big rocks on their heads, it just isn't happening. The coalition doesn't much of a chance anymore...

Well, clearly Parson thinks there are problems, since he has contingency plans to deal with heavy units and warlords.

Just a reminder: There are potentially 3000+ Jetstone units and 1800+ Marbit units in the tunnels. Vs. Parson's forces: 35 golems, a dirtomancer, and 242 gobwins (mostly level 1).

This is not a walkover.

[Lamech]

Umm... his contigency plan to deal with heavies is: not send the infantry, send heavies. That mearly implies infantry don't beat heavies, and I have seen three heavies in the tunnels, and one was a sourmander Dora was riding. So the Jetstone group has what? Two heavies, to go up against 35+ heavy golems. And those gobwins, they get a big bonus when fighting in the tunnels. On a final note everyone is at least slightly crispy on the Jetstone side.

[CaptC]

On a final note everyone is at least slightly crispy on the Jetstone side.

We certainly don't know that. We know Webinar's stack got hit. One can assume other stacks got hit. The dramatic implication is certainly that Webinar took serious casualties. But if traps killed more than 10% of his forces, I'd be amazed. Check those numbers again, Webinar still has a huge numerical advantage.

Whatever the losses, Webinar is still being aggressive. I expect its a real fight in the tunnels. I fully expect Parson to win, but I expect it to be a near thing, and Parson is not going to be unscathed.

[Zolem]

Perhaps all 1800 Marbits are in there, sure, but I highly doubt he sent more than a few hundered Jetstone units down there. The reason is that he wanted the bulk of the forces on the surface to force Parson to not bw able to commit a lot of units to the tunnles.

[Dacia Brabant]

There are potentially 3000+ Jetstone units and 1800+ Marbit units in the tunnels. Vs. Parson's forces: 35 golems, a dirtomancer, and 242 gobwins (mostly level 1).

This is not a walkover.

This is SPARTAGOBWIN KNOB!



Oh and to answer the question, yeah I think Dora's gonna buy the farm, but Webinar--this is his Pickett's Charge moment, he needs to make it back to his commander alive even/especially if he's the only one. Not sure about Sizemore though, that really could go either way.

[VariaVespasa]

This is SPARTAGOBWIN KNOB!



Oh and to answer the question, yeah I think Dora's gonna buy the farm, but Webinar--this is his Pickett's Charge moment, he needs to make it back to his commander alive. Not sure about Sizemore though, that really could go either way.

Webinar looks annoyed... :P

This might, possibly, be some form of Picketts charge, although the leadup doesnt feel like it, but if it is then Ansom is Pickett, not Webinar, and ALL of Pickets brigade commanders were casualties (2 dead, 1 badly wounded and captured) and all (or possibly "just" 13 of 15) of his regimental commanders too (6 of 11 dead, other 2 unknown).

I think theyre both toast. They are, so far, following Parsons plan, and thats a bad, bad way to try to win... Theyre only a 5 and a 2, and I suspect Sizemore has a bigger bonus than that with his golems, and I'm sure the golems are bigger and tougher than Webinars heavies. The only thing that might save them is the GK weak point- attrition. GK's forces ARE vastly outnumbered, so theyre going to have to inflict 10+ to 1 casualties down there, at a very minumum, to have a chance at victory. Thats at least 10 fights per stack, basically, and thats 10 battles worth of nicks and cuts slowly wearing down the golems and thats the only thing that might permit Webinar to survive direct confrontation with Sizemore. I'm positive that against a fairly healthy Sizemore stack, no single coalition stack stands a chance in 1 on 1 combat with Sizemores core golem stack in the tunnels unless it has Jillian or Ansom in it, and likely not even then. Remember that Parsons plan supposedly includes capturing the Arkenpliers too, which means that even Ansom is at serious (58+%) risk. Webinar is only a 5, without an artifact bonus to help him out, doing what Parson has planned for, in Parsons area of strength. Ansom is not in the tunnels, and thus he's much safer than Webinar. Therefore thats the area where Parsons plan can most likely fail if its going to, and still Ansom has a 58% chance of going down. Webinar is at the start of the action, where Parsons forces are freshest, and nothing has had a chance to go wrong yet. Therefore the outcome of the tunnels is least in doubt. Webinar is dog meat.

[Borris]

I do believe Webinar or Dora, perhaps both, will die soon. Erfworld has great characters, but when you keep adding a new one every now and then, you quickly end up with loads and loads of characters, so much that it can become hard to follow everything. So at some points you have to do some cleanup. Besides, it's war. People die in those.

[Lamech]

Erfworld really doesn't have loads and loads of characters. On the Jetstone side it really only has three Vinny, Jillian, and Ansom with any depth. On GK's side just Parson, Stanley Sizemore and Wanda have real depth. Charlie I guess too. And Maggie may become one too, but doesn't have a whole lot of depth. So there are really only 8 main characters...
I've been watching to much battlestar, and heroes, I think

[CaptC]

Perhaps all 1800 Marbits are in there, sure, but I highly doubt he sent more than a few hundered Jetstone units down there. The reason is that he wanted the bulk of the forces on the surface to force Parson to not bw able to commit a lot of units to the tunnles.

Well, cool! By your view (which is quite valid, we don't have complete info), Parson is only outnumbered in the tunnels 5:1. MINIMUM.

That's still a lot, my friend. If you have a horde army facing an army that is numerically inferior but of better quality troops, you have to attack. You have to keep all of your forces in contact with the enemy, or you will be defeated in detail without much chance to cause damage. Think zerglings versus protoss. If you throw in a few zerglings at a time, the protoss kill the zerglings before they get close enough to do damage, and can rinse-and-repeat forever. Drop in a enough zerglings simultaneously, the protoss don't have enough guns and get over-run.

Webinar is aware of this and pressing the attack with his zerglings marbits.

As to the Pickett's charge comparisons, it's fairly apt with one exception: The Union actually outnumbered Pickett significantly, I believe. Pickett and the Charge of the Light Brigade are a more apt comparison. Pickett was charging uphill against a well armed, entrenched, numerically superior opponent over open terrain. Complete and utter suicide.

Webinar's situation is bad, but not quite that bad.

[Moechi_Vill]

If the RCC knew their chemistry better they could've pulled a Furmentation Now on GK with some preparation. *implode*

4,800 (not anymore) isn't that much on right below 300. It's 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 depending on how you assess the units, not counting in defensive modifiers.

I've beat a force nearly 40:1 in open combat using cavalry. It's nasty, but doable with royal guard units whose morale won't break.
And that wasn't a sissy army either.

I'll admit any time of the day Medieval Europe II Total War is horribly dumbed down in regards to morale, but it still trumps the do or die attitude of Erfworlders. On the surface MEII is more complex, but Erfworld is surprisingly, even scintillating in its colorful possibilities within strategy and tactics. Pulling a 10+ to 1 might be harder but its more... possible.

[Dacia Brabant]

Webinar looks annoyed... :P

This might, possibly, be some form of Picketts charge, although the leadup doesnt feel like it, but if it is then Ansom is Pickett, not Webinar

But Lee gave the order, it was his plan as foolish as it was. Ansom is Lee, he's the one who's responsible for this boop-up. For the sake of the dramatic reversal, Webinar has to live long enough to curse his boss, preferably to his face.

Of course Lee didn't seem to care too much about taking losses so long as he "won", while Ansom's following a similar path out of a wish to avoid unnecessary losses. There's just no escaping Irony.

As to the Pickett's charge comparisons, it's fairly apt with one exception: The Union actually outnumbered Pickett significantly, I believe. Pickett and the Charge of the Light Brigade are a more apt comparison. Pickett was charging uphill against a well armed, entrenched, numerically superior opponent over open terrain.

That is a good point. On the other hand, sending your main attack force into an obvious trap underground--where close quarters diminish numerical advantage considerably--with no way out but through the enemy isn't a whole lot better.

[IronBear]

From a literary standpoint it makes sense for Dora to die rather soon and Webinar to live, at least for a little while

Aside from having a name and being romantically involved with Webinar Dora has had no other characterization applied to her. What we have is just enough to identify here but no more. Meanwhile Webinar has a god deal of characterization and backstory applied to him…but very little of it positive. He is largely a seen by every one, including us as rigid and obsessed with rules and honor in ways most readers can’t relate to. The kind of character most people like seeing knocked down a peg or three. As such having him die immediately wont present much in the way of an emotional impact for us readers, most will either cheer his death or think that he deserved his end.

But…if Webinar witnessed the death of Dora his shock and anger and mourning make him a full character. One that readers can relate to. Espically if he comes to view his orders to lead the tunnel troops to be a huge mistake and he begins questioning the fitness of Ansom to lead. And as Scylfing said dramatics dictate that it be Webinar report the monumental loss of the tunnels and curse Ansom for his poor judgment.

After we come to see Webinar as a person and not just as a prop, then he can be killed off.

[Vossik]

I have to agree, Dora needs to die first. One of two things will happen after that,
1. Webinar will blame Ansom and end up doing something to hinder him.
or
2. He will get revenge on Sizemore.

He won't live long after one of those two things happens though. There is a chance if it is option 2 that 1 can still happen though.

[CaptC]

That is a good point. On the other hand, sending your main attack force into an obvious trap underground--where close quarters diminish numerical advantage considerably--with no way out but through the enemy isn't a whole lot better.

There is no obvious underground trap to Ansom. It's obvious to us, but we have the advantage of seeing what Parson is doing behind the scenes.

Does Ansom know he faces a dirtomancer? From Sizemore's surprise at what combat is like, I think Stanley has not used Sizemore in combat. Even if Ansom knows about Sizemore, does Ansom think a dirtomancer will even be effective in combat? Stanley clearly thinks not.

Ansom has a vast numerical advantage. Attacking everywhere at once in overwhelming force is Ansom's strategy. Committing massive forces through the tunnels is part of that plan, and he selected his best tunnel troops for that task, albeit not his best warlord. But it's a good strategy that would normalyy win. Parson beat Ansom to the punch and is attacking first in the tunnels. Parson's plan will succeed because of a game exploit that we don't fully understand yet.

Losing a won position, or being battled to draw, because of a previously unknown game exploit is far from "committing your forces to an obvious trap". Ansom is a competent if unimaginative general, who is letting massive force superiority lull him to sleep. And he's facing a gaming genius with his back to the wall in Parson.