122 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 110

[Destro_Yersul]

I wonder if Jack holds any resentment for Jillian, seeing as she wasn't there when Faq originally fell...

Might be reading too much into this, but maybe he's come to believe it was her fault somehow. Could explain his expression in the last panel. Or I might just be crazy.

[Murska]

Well Stanley's in a mountain choke point. How did he end up with enemy stacks behind him without having gone passed them?

Its not Transylvito's turn so they couldn't have moved in behind Stanley.

Its got to a distraction cast by Jack

There could be a rule for something like ambushes.

[Amplify]

Jack fooled Stanley into heading away from the Transylvito stack.

Panel 9 shows how it is. Jack has his hand on Stanley's shoulder and points to show him enemy stacks ahead when in reality, the enemy stacks are already behind him as can be seen in the background.

Panel 11 shows the dwagons zooming away from the enemy flyers (and supposedly towards Jack's distraction).

I like your theory, it seems entirley plausible. I'm interested to hear what SteveMB thinks though, since I rarley find myself not agreeing with his theorys and speculations

[hiigaran]

In panel 9 we see that jack has already turned them around and we can see the ambush site in the background as there flying away. This is a clear indicator that jack is tricking stanley into turning that stack around.

[xtrapwr]

Its got to a distraction cast by Jack

I'm inclined to agree here. Jack has no desire to lose his life anymore than the next unit, and we know him to be a master of distractions. The most telling point for me would be the "see what I see" line. While there may be ambush rules, the Julian/Vinne company doesn't have a foolamancer present, and being able to pop from behind in a one hex choke point would have required Stanely passing through without seeing the group behind.

I think at this point the safest bet is that Jack has managed to turn the Tool around, and they are now charging safely away from Faq. This trick will only be good for a turn at best, but that should buy Parson the time he needs to survive.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

yeah, i think anyone could argue towards both points. Jack saving Stanley's ass or being too late and got ambushed. It makes sense for an ambush to set up forces in the only 2 directions that they could escape. ¿Maybe they were flying lower and went up after Stanley passed through? If Jack gets to play a role here, i bet it'll be use distraction to avoid fire on them - or preventing Jillian from killing Stanley because it would kill him too (really, at this point what is not possible? )
The thing is, even if they get through, they'll still need a veil to avoid being hunted down.

edit: the biggest point against Jack casting distraction/veil is, how is he supposed to know what kind of ambush is set up? Parson didn't even tell him that there was an ambush in the choke point (and maybe Parson didn't even know the details). Neither he knew that Jillian was there with extra Transylvito units.

[Azuroth]

It seems reasonably obvious to me, but I don't think there are any illusions here. Between panels 6 and 7, they flew into the pass, and the Transylvito forces were hiding up above the pass waiting for the Tool to go by. Once he did, the forces in front and the forces coming in behind him (notice how units seem to be flying down from above in panel 11) trap him in between.

The biggest problem I see with the turned around theory, is that Jillian (on her yellow Gwiffon) is in front of him in panel 10, but not present in panel 11.

[Moechi_Vill]

If my Heroes of Might and Magic days are anything to go buy, being in a town/city gives you defensive bonuses. As far as Stanley knows, Jack Snipe is defective, and I don't think he wants to be out in the open where he can be picked off, even with an armada of dwagons. He probably views whatever bonuses Faq will give him to be his best bet.

Also, he's a bad tactician.

Is not. Combat tactics are one of his strong suits, you must be thinking of grand strategy. It was one of Stanley's ideas to hole up in GK... for tactical reasons.

[Abzug]

It's pretty clear to me that there are Julian and some vamps are in front of Stanley, and there are a group of vamps behind Stanley. At one point all the vamps were standing around on the ground. It wouldn't take too much, I don't think, for them to fly into the air after Stanley entered their square to surround him. After all, they were stationed there with a guard/ambush type of action.

It could also be that the fool is going to give Stanley a quick day dream and show the entire stack of Dragons being defeated with Stanley dying. Kind of like that dream where you are falling and you wake up just as you hit the ground. This may cause Stanley to think for a moment before trying to punch through the front stack, and cause him to turn around and try to punch through the stack behind him.

After all, wasn't the point of him going to FAQ to start a new side in secret? Or was it just to get to a new base that wasn't surrounded?

I think it would be cool for Stanley to whoop some boop here and end up in FAQ only to discover that he can't start a new Capital City because GW is still standing. It might also be interesting if Stanley does establish FAQ as the new Capital, thus turning GW into a Free/Neutral city under the control of Parson.

[Half_Moon]

It's pretty clear to me that there are Julian and some vamps are in front of Stanley, and there are a group of vamps behind Stanley. At one point all the vamps were standing around on the ground. It wouldn't take too much, I don't think, for them to fly into the air after Stanley entered their square to surround him. After all, they were stationed there with a guard/ambush type of action.

That is certainly plausible.

However, we see that there are 6 transylvitian warlords in front of Stanley and 6 behind him. (panels 10&11)

We know that there are only 10 transylvitian warlords by looking at panel 2 of this strip and by what Don King said here

So I reckon its more likely that its Jack's Distraction than an enemy ambush.

[SteveMB]

One thing I noticed is that panels 10 & 11 appear to have six Transylvito warlords each. Now I ain't a Mathamancer, but I'm pretty sure that two times six is more than eleven (Vinny plus the ten sent by Don King)....

EDIT: The ninjas strike quickly....

[SteveMB]

If you compare the last frames 2 and 3, you will note that both have a vague mountain painted between the 2 mountainsides, only mirrored.

Jack is indeed letting Stanley see what he sees, just not in the same direction.

Or it could just be Jamie recycling some background and me reading too much into it.

Nah -- the shapes of the mountains are significantly different (most notably, the middle one in panel 10 is distinctly pointy and the middle one in panel 11 is almost flat). If it's an illusion, it isn't quite as simple as mirroring the view in one direction and showing it in another.

At this point, I'm not sure what to make of the situation -- there are some clues pointing to an illusion/distraction, but not definitively.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Just a thought:

We've established that the number of warlords in Panel 10 and 11 totals greater than should be present. So it likely means there is an illusion of some kind.

But did anyone notice the effect in Panel's 10 and 11 that suggest they are turning. It is likely no more than artistic style but, for me, it is suggesting that there is a "turning" motion in effect. Couple that with that that in Panel 8, Stanley is looking back at Jack and doesn't see the units that are present in Panel 9. I think that my initial take on this page is correct. Jack is guiding Stanley to Gobwin Knob.

[teratorn]

We've established that the number of warlords in Panel 10 and 11 totals greater than should be present.

How can you tell that some of them are not unipegataurs?

[Charlicat]

At one point all the vamps were standing around on the ground.

I don't think so...unless it happened off-camera. Vamps and Jillian are flying units. It may have looked like they were standing around on the ground, but they were actually standing around IN THE AIR.

[yrm2]

4th time i've read the strip now.

Initial read was something like: Oh, at least this one isn't to ambigious...

After my fourth read. The following thoughts are on my mind.

1. Jack is back in the game, though only able to riddle-speak.
2. Jack has cast a distraction on Stanleys stack.
3. Stanley is charging away from FAQ right now.

If you compare the last frames 2 and 3, you will note that both have a vague mountain painted between the 2 mountainsides, only mirrored.

Jack is indeed letting Stanley see what he sees, just not in the same direction.

Or it could just be Jamie recycling some background and me reading too much into it.

I agree with this... Stanely turns around to look at Jack, and there is a blur that looks like the mountain pass BEHIND Jack. Stanely didn't pass through veiled enemy units... there would have been a fight and the enemy's plan was to mass and meet Stanely at the choke point.

I think Jack spun Stanely around and Stanely is "busting through" back in the direction of Gobwin Knob.

Stanely and Parsons almost have to be re-united at the end of this book, and Stanely returning to Gobwin Knob gives Parson a way to survive Charlie if Parson wins this turn.

Honestly, the authors have strung us along for over 120 comics... they're going to have to give Parson a real win and conclude this part of the story in some meaningful way.

We're so used to cliff-hangers but, I think we're finally going to see Parson's plan really come together and him prove himself so we can move on to the next chapter.

After all, even if Parson saves Gobwin Knob, Stanely only has just the one city... there's still a big world to take over, and Parson and Stanely are sure to butt heads. Then Parson is likely, at some point, to have a rift with Stanely. So yeah, I'm anxiously hoping that we get a satisfying conclusion to this chapter and we see Gobwin Knob saved.

[Half_Moon]

How can you tell that some of them are not unipegataurs?

The warlords seem to be have some specks flying around them. They are most likely to be the bats since Transylvitian warlords like Vinnie seem to use them. Here, Caesar also says that they are packing bats

Also, we haven't seen one instance of a unipegataur since Wanda blasted the air group.

[Zolem]

Are units actually able to betray their leaders?
Parson got a spell when summoned which is supposed to make him obey tools orders.
And neutral Partys/Allies can break alliances anytime if I remember correctly.

But what about units like Wanda, Bogroll etc.? It seems they can't or don't want to betray. What would make the Foolamancer so special allowing him to betray Stenley? Maybe because Stanley didn't "spawn" him in Gobwin Knob? Then the Foolamancer alongside Wanda would count as neutral ally.

He's not betraying, because as has been stated several times you are alowed to disobay your leader if you think it is in his best interest.

[CaptC]

On another smaller note, we now know that Thinkograms can be private as well. So Jack and Parson can collude secretly.

I think the simplest solution works here. No need to add extra plot, we have plenty. Parson is now the perfect warlord, hence his plans are very likely to succeed from here on out. He tried to get Jack to convince Stanley to head back to GK, hence that is very likely to happen. And since Jack apparently has impaired speech and an obstinate warlord and very little time, he's using his distraction ability to turn Stanley around rather than try to talk him out of it.

Jack's not being disloyal. He knows that Stanley has no head for strategy and is likely to put himself in a position where Stanley will die. So Jack is listening to Parson, who has showed real strategic thinking.

I don't think Jack is really thinking about personal survival as much, at least in the sense that he is avoiding the fight so that Jack won't be killed. Jack has to know that he is in deep boop even if he saves Stanley. Stanley is going to be upset at being fooled, and he can disband Jack with a thought.

I wouldn't sell Jack a new life insurance policy right now.

[Gamebird]

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends."

Ha!

Jack has made use of his enemies by creating a distraction that looks like them and then setting his foolish friend towards them. I agree that the Tool is now rushing towards an illusion of his foes, back towards GK and away from the pass.

[Charlicat]

Just a thought:

We've established that the number of warlords in Panel 10 and 11 totals greater than should be present. So it likely means there is an illusion of some kind.

But did anyone notice the effect in Panel's 10 and 11 that suggest they are turning. It is likely no more than artistic style but, for me, it is suggesting that there is a "turning" motion in effect. Couple that with that that in Panel 8, Stanley is looking back at Jack and doesn't see the units that are present in Panel 9. I think that my initial take on this page is correct. Jack is guiding Stanley to Gobwin Knob.

I completely agree (for what it's worth). Note the literary foreshadowing from the previous strip:

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends."

This quote can be broken down into two parts: "A wise man gets more use from his enemies..." foreshadows this current panel wherein Jack is turning Stanley back towards Gobwin Knob with his Foolamancy illusion by simulating the enemy stacks. Granted, this is said with the benefit of hindsight, but consider the TIMING of the strip and the event sequence very carefully.

If you look in panel 8 - this is where the Fool sees for the 1st time the REAL enemy stacks. He has a genuine look of surprise combined with "Oh, boop!" The very next panel (9) he casts the spell - "See what I see!" This dissolves the argument that Jack wouldn't know what type of illusion to cast...He saw what the enemy looked like before he cast the spell. Panel 10 is the illusion the Fool has generated that all of Stanley's stack is viewing. Panel 11 is the Tool and Co. headed away from the REAL enemies. Supported by the look on Jack's face in Panel 12...the same "Ha! Got you, sucka!" face worn by Wanda after she took out most of Jillian's airforce with the tower defenses.

Also consider that a split stack is unlikely. Caesar's final order before he ended turn was to "Stack up, Chickie." http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html

NOT "Let's split these stacks so we can flank" - as supported by conversation taking place here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0119.html

This quote's second part: "...than a fool from his friends." Has been pretty well discussed in the previous thread, but to me it means Jack is thinking something like - "OK, new Parson Warlord Guy...you say you're my friend and that you want to help me, yet you want me to find a way to turn Stanley back to GK knowing that if Stanley thinks I'm either a traitor or of no use to him that he can disband me on the spot. Right. This Fool does not feel helped at all."

I could be totally wrong - feel free to discuss!

[Templar]

I am really pleased to see us getting some regular updates. The story's rolling down the hill now, and the best part is I still don't really have an idea how it's all going to turn out. I think they're heading back to GK, though.

[Eugenitor]

I wonder how hard it would be for the Foolamancer to maintain a PERMANENT illusion for Stanley, putting him in a mini-Matrix for the rest of the foreseeable future where he wins all his battles, when in reality he's bouncing around a room of padded walls and commanding no one?

[OverWilliam]

Oooooooh, yeah. Foolamancer's back.

[SteveD]

"The medium... is the mess"

hmm... so the mind is fine, it's just the expression, i.e. his words, that don't come out right?

I say it's a bit of tomfoolery... Jack is on Parson's side

It would square with Wandas problems with speaking after she had that spell rebound on her.

I agree its not an illusion, the evidence does not support that. It could be as simple as the foolmancer has a better spotting distance, or made a lucky roll on spotting so saw them sooner, etc...

Am also curious how the vampires got behind. Are there ambush mechanics we don't know about, in the same way as scouting mechanics? Does that mean all the units are in the same hex? Do mountain passes work like special hexes, in the same way as roads or paths differ to forest in terms of movement?

It could also be something as simple as the artists strugling to create atmosphere in a turn-based story. :P

[Grubsnik]

Nah -- the shapes of the mountains are significantly different (most notably, the middle one in panel 10 is distinctly pointy and the middle one in panel 11 is almost flat). If it's an illusion, it isn't quite as simple as mirroring the view in one direction and showing it in another.

At this point, I'm not sure what to make of the situation -- there are some clues pointing to an illusion/distraction, but not definitively.

True.

Also a few other missing details, like the lack of gwiffons in frame 11. The lack of a peak could be attributed to the tilting of the view, but the second level of shade is definately not in the same height, though that might just be artistic oversight.

[Another_Poet]

Um... did the dwagon, uh, just talk?

Is that a first in Erfworld?

[teratorn]

Um... did the dwagon, uh, just talk?

Is that a first in Erfworld?

It was the Knight...

[Subtext]

He's not betraying, because as has been stated several times you are alowed to disobay your leader if you think it is in his best interest.

Not exactly. You're allowed to disobey if you're convinced that the orders would lead to the destruction of the leader. A fine (but in my opinion significiant) distinction. I even think that high loyalty compels units to disobey under that exact circumstances
Edit: And yes, I think units can betray their leaders. That's what the loyalty stat should be there for.

I also believe that Jack "distracted" Stanley in order to lure him back to Gobwin Knob.

Someone stated that Jack might be angry at Jillian for some reason. The more I think about that, the more I think that theory could be possible.
We KNOW that Jillian is very guilty of something (as Wanda stated after she interrogated Jillian) and we also know that Jillian hated her father and vice versa. AND Jillian's kinda hot-tempered.
I think it is very possible that Jillian somehow caused the destruction of Faq (maybe by telling Stanley the location of Faq after one of her visits in Gobwin Knob dungeon). Just a very blurry theory though...

[SteveMB]

Um... did the dwagon, uh, just talk?

If you mean frame 10, if you look closely you'll see that it's one of the three KISS units Stanley brought with him.