Arena Tournament, Round 49: Chile IV and Glunk vs Greenscales and Dusker

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

Not a LoS check.

@chile, refs

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I was going to pitch in on this match, but I had no idea what you're up to.

I don't have access to the text of Launch Item. Can you post it?

As for manipulating two items in one hand (scroll, wand), Is that allowed? It's not a big deal since your other hand is free and switching items back and forth is free, but it ought to be answered, since you can't take additional free actions during your readied action.

If you could spend the extra few keystrokes to type out the spell names, I wouldn't have just spent 5 minutes figuring out what you meant by a scroll of Sh. Shocking Grasp? Shield? And that's just in core.

Looking at your character sheet, you're carrying a "bag of boulders" that weighs nothing. Which lead me to examine the rest of your gear. You've got

tanglefoot bags 8 lbs
acid 2
alchemist's fire 2
MW artisan's tools 5
spell pouch 2
leather armor 15
and... boulders ???
(you left your tent at home)

So, how many boulders do you have, and how much do they weigh? Even if that's zero boulders, you're carrying a medium load, and your speed is 30'. E20 is 35' from the closest corner of your starting position.

In going from E20 to I26, are you going around or over the ziggurat? I'll hazard that that's another move beyond your speed, but withhold judgment until you plot it out for me.

[Morbius]

High Ref Maurkov

Not a LoS check.

@chile, refs

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I was going to pitch in on this match, but I had no idea what you're up to.

I don't have access to the text of Launch Item. Can you post it?

As for manipulating two items in one hand (scroll, wand), Is that allowed? It's not a big deal since your other hand is free and switching items back and forth is free, but it ought to be answered, since you can't take additional free actions during your readied action.

If you could spend the extra few keystrokes to type out the spell names, I wouldn't have just spent 5 minutes figuring out what you meant by a scroll of Sh. Shocking Grasp? Shield? And that's just in core.

Looking at your character sheet, you're carrying a "bag of boulders" that weighs nothing. Which lead me to examine the rest of your gear. You've got

tanglefoot bags 8 lbs
acid 2
alchemist's fire 2
MW artisan's tools 5
spell pouch 2
leather armor 15
and... boulders ???
(you left your tent at home)

So, how many boulders do you have, and how much do they weigh? Even if that's zero boulders, you're carrying a medium load, and your speed is 30'. E20 is 35' from the closest corner of your starting position.

In going from E20 to I26, are you going around or over the ziggurat? I'll hazard that that's another move beyond your speed, but withhold judgment until you plot it out for me.

High ref Morbius

@ Maurkov, chile refs

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Basically launch item allows him to throw an item like alchemist's fire at the range of 100 ft without range penalties, bag of boulders is an item from Magic Item Compendium, I don't remember how much it weights but I don't think it's much.

I agree with Maurkov on the guess what spell I just cast situation.
And the hold several items on one hand topic was discussed before but I don't remember where or the result.
EDIT: Chile has 40 ft move, he has enought move to go there

[chilepepper]

@refs

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Wow, why do I make so many mistakes with my characters. I'm sorry, as I have erred. First, let me answer everything.

Launch Item

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Launch Item
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 0
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One Fine item in your possession, weighing up to 10
lb.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You hold the itemand windmill your armin an underhanded toss.
When it leaves your hand, it is bathed in an orange glow and flies far-
ther than you could throw any item.
You cause a Fine itemin your possession to fly at great speed
to a target or location you specify, out tomediumrange (100 ft.
+ 10 ft./level).
This spell is normally used to launch dangerous items
(flasks of acid, thunderstones, and so on) farther than you
could normally throw them. You can use this spell to make an
attack with a splash weapon. If you choose to do so, you must
make an attack roll as normal, but you suffer no penalties for
range.
Source: Spell Compendium 3.5 (SpC)

Bag of Boulders weighs 1#.

Holding multiple items: As previously ruled by Kyeudo (in one of my previous matches) there is a difference between Holding and Wielding. You cannot wield more than one thing in your hand. By RAW, you can hold as much as you want, up to maximum carrying capacity, and there's no restriction on how you hold it. I could be holding everything in one hand. While the feasibility may be argued in the extreme, holding a stick and a piece of paper in one hand is feasible, so there's no reason to challenge RAW. If an invisible person can drop a scroll and read it from the ground, then I assume it needs no manipulation, I just have to be able to read it.

Sorry about the spells, I'll have that corrected in my next stat block. It was in fact Shield. I didn't mean to make more work for you, as I know how much effort it takes to ref things. For immediate reference, the scroll has True Strike, Shield, Invisibility, and Expeditious Retreat.

Encumberance: I am under medium encumberance, and therefore my speed is reduced to 30'. In round one, I took a standard actoin, then moved. Being a high ref, I assume the best thing to do is shorten the distance traveled. If that doesn't change LoS between round 1 and round 2, then nothing needs to be rewound (double check with SoD of course). In the second round, I tried to move further with a move action than is possible. Precedent would indicate a rewind to that point, I will simply follow the same path, going around the corner, getting as far as possible. The rest of my turn as stated can stand.

Start > D18 > F23

I hope I've given enough information to rectify the situation. Sorry for the hassle.

[Talic]

So, is Glunk up?

[Maurkov]

Somebody still needs to do a LoS. I'll get to it late tonight tomorrow morning if nobody gets there first.

Edit: Sorry, I'm wiped.

[Talic]

@Dusker:

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Free Action: Speak(quietly):

If you want, I can scout ahead, get an advantage. They can't see me. If that sounds good, just wait for me to move first.

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

LoS:

@Glunk

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You see Chile in F23. He had to redo his moves because he is encumbered. Start > D18 > F23

@Dusker

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You see no one.

@Greenscales

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You see Dusker at S14. You see Chile stop in F23. You don't think Dusker has the angle to see him, though.

@Chile

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I am mollified.

If an invisible person can drop a scroll and read it from the ground, then I assume it needs no manipulation, I just have to be able to read it.

One could argue that a scroll with multiple spells must be manipulated, but I won't. Your new moves look fine, and I've updated those that can or have seen you.

You see Glunk in D21

Glunk's turn.

[Bayar]

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If an invisible person can drop a scroll and read it from the ground, then I assume it needs no manipulation, I just have to be able to read it.

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I hate you guys

And no one told me that option

[chilepepper]

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And no one told me that option

bayar

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That's because refs can't suggest tactics to a match participant.

Nothing important, just some banter.

[Talic]

@Dusker:

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Free Action (speak quietly): I see one. Southwest. Both probably there. If you wait, I'll get by him, counter anything he does. Will drop vial when I move as signal.

Edited to comply with ref ruling, and an error correction.

[SoD]

Glunk, round II

Chile can see.

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Move to E22

Need LoS.

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius

I smell, something wrong...
LoS:


@Glunk

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You see Chile in F23.

@Dusker

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You see no one. Ignore Talic's message, Maurkov made a mistake about positioning there is not LOS

@Greenscales

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You see Dusker at S14. I am afraid Maurkouv was mistaken there is no LOS to any opponent, you did not see chile anywhere so far

@Chile

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You can see what Glunk posted above

@refs

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This is a side view from the arena to make things more simple


PS: It ignores the squared corners

[Talic]

@morbius, refs:

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I actually pegged LOS to chile when I verified it. Distance between myself and chile: 85 feet (factoring in diagonals for south and west, and diagonals for south and lowering elevation).

Assume my point of vision is at S15 (elevation 15). I.E. My eyes are on the top of my body (which is standing on ground at elevation 10). From S15 to M19 is 40 feet. Anything after M19 is past the covering obstacle (the elevated plateau). So, for every 5 feet of visibility I gain going down, I must look out 40 feet. Thus, at M19, I can see Elevation (10). At G23 (80 feet out), I can see to elevation (5). That means at F23 (85 feet out), I can barely see into the Elevation (0) square. Not denying the guy gets cover, but I should just barely have LOS.

[Morbius]

@morbius, refs:

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I actually pegged LOS to chile when I verified it. Distance between myself and chile: 85 feet (factoring in diagonals for south and west, and diagonals for south and lowering elevation).

Assume my point of vision is at S15 (elevation 15). I.E. My eyes are on the top of my body (which is standing on ground at elevation 10). From S15 to M19 is 40 feet. Anything after M19 is past the covering obstacle (the elevated plateau). So, for every 5 feet of visibility I gain going down, I must look out 40 feet. Thus, at M19, I can see Elevation (10). At G23 (80 feet out), I can see to elevation (5). That means at F23 (85 feet out), I can barely see into the Elevation (0) square. Not denying the guy gets cover, but I should just barely have LOS.

High Ref Morbius

refs, talic

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Hum... that is a very complicated formula... before I fry my brain trying to understand that, is it still valid when you realize that S15 is elevation 10 only?(or are you enlarged?)
EDIT: also for some reason I fail to see LOS here (I believe there are about 4 squares or more between you and the position Maurkov said Chile was if he was there anyway...

[Talic]

High Ref Morbius

refs, talic

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Hum... that is a very complicated formula... before I fry my brain trying to understand that, is it still valid when you realize that S15 is elevation 10 only?(or are you enlarged?)

@morbius/refs:

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S15 is elevation 10. That means that the surface my feet are on is 10 feet up. My eyes are roughly 5 feet above that, unless I'm prone.

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius

refs, talic

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Also for some reason I fail to see LOS here (I believe there are about 4 squares or more between you and the position Maurkov said Chile was if he was there anyway...

[Talic]

@Refs/Morbius:

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Your blue line's a bit thick, and whereas it starts using its center to show my LOS, at the point where the blockage is, it uses the bottom. I overlaid a thinner line to illustrate. By narrowing the line to 1 pixel wide, it eliminates the center vs. top/bottom of the line issue.

EDIT: Granted, this is a bit oversimplified, as it doesn't factor in the 3rd dimension (which adds distance to both the top and bottom, with the whole 2nd-diagonal-is-10-feet thing).

The exact square measurements should be 8 squares at elevation 10, and 9 squares at elevation less than 10.

[SoD]

Glunk

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Move to I22. Total distance moved: 35 feet.

Ready Action:

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If Attacked attack back. If this isn't possible (due to actions readied), five-foot step five feet to H22

If I see either of them, I inform Chile. Done.

Duskers turn.

Battle State:

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HP 25/25
AC: 15 (Touch 12, FF 13)
In Hand: Potion (Bull's Strength)
Location: I22

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

I smell, something wrong...

@refs

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I was going to defend my LoS, but after rechecking it, the line from the south east top edge of F23 to the south east top edge of S15 does touch the edge of the ziggurat at the top of the stairs. Not sure how the side view makes this one easier.

I'm not certain of the remedy, though. It's impossible to ignore revealed information. Greenscales will establish LoS as soon as he steps west(up) or south, but I wonder if we should allow Chile to redo his last move.

Mea culpa.

[Talic]

@Refs:

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Mea Culpa? There's no cause for Maurkov to be admitting error here.

As best I can determine, there WAS LOS. I've checked the overhead and the side maps. Here's everything I've got, including an overhead pic to show distances and horizontal obstructions, and a side pic to plot the elevation obstruction.

[theterran]

If everything is a go, I'll post my turn tomorrow (Monday)

Just need someone to give the go ahead.

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

@Talic, Refs

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The problem is the 10' high point at the edge of 19-20. Since Greenscales nearest point is 5' above and 20' away, he can't see anything 5' below and closer than 20' away. Chile's furthest point is 20' away and therefore out of sight. Just.

Any east-west displacement is a distraction.

.........G.
..../......
.C./.......
22222111111
43210987654

Not sure if that's adding to the discussion. My question is about the remedy.

[Talic]

@Maurkov/refs:

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Due to the way that diagonal distance works in D&D, the east/west is not a distraction. If chile were in S23, your point would have merit. As is, the east/west increases both the distance from me to the obstacle and the distance from the obstacle to chile. Due to this, the line isn't pure vertical and north/south. It's angled, with 40 feet of distance pre-obstruction, 45 feet of distance post obstruction. Plotting the line, as I did, shows the direct path you have to look to see the opposing player. That line travels for 40 feet, encounters the top of the stairs, travels 45 more, and encounters Chile. The secondary picture following it plots the angle of descent for a line with those characteristics.

You can be 5 feet back from a wall, on the top. Look far enough down it to the left and the right, and you'll see inches away from it, even if you can't see closer than 5 feet away right next to you. The east and west cannot thus be a distraction.

I think your basic error here is that you are correlating as if the stairs at S19 are the obstacle, when the stairs at M19 are actually the problem.

However, even if you were right, I don't see that any remedy needs to be made. The only remedies I can think of that could possibly apply would be rewinding and restarting the match. My previous intent for movement was to travel Southwest to the top of the stairs, then Northwest to view the opponent starting area, then northeast, making a full circuit of the arena to find my opponents. If I encountered them, I'd move adjacent if possible. I believe the Southern movement on my previous turn correlates this. Based on that, whether I find him now, or 10 feet into my movement makes no difference. I still have plenty of movement to make it to my goal (adjacent). Thus, there is no major difference between the end results of my next turn.

The possible consequences of a further rewind could be used to garner information about the nature of the error (based on where the rewind was made to), and thus provide information about our position. A full restart would be possible, I suppose, but seems a bit extreme in this instance.

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

Just need someone to give the go ahead.

Go ahead.

[theterran]

Dusker - Round 2


Actions (Greenscales/refs):

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Move to O18.

Need LoS Check, Turn not Over.

Stats:

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Location: O18
HP: 17/17
AC: 20 Touch: 16 FF: 16
In Hand: Spiked Chain
SoF (2/10)
Boots (0/3)

Spell Slots:
Level 0 - 3/3
Level 1 - 3/3

Maneuvers:

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Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Shadow Blade Technique, Clinging Shadow Strike, Stone Bones

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

Is this another thread that nobody wants to LoS because I showed up earlier? I screwed it up last time, remember?

Edit: ...and this time too. Superceded by the LoS in post 59.

@Dusker

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When you step in Q16 you can see Chile in F23. 15' of your first move action has been completed.

@Greenscales

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No additional LoS.

@Chile

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No additional LoS.

@Glunk

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No additional LoS.

Still Dusker's turn.

[Talic]

Nah, I think it was my half dozen spoiler blocks that muddled it.

[theterran]

Dusker - Round 2 (cont)

Actions:

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Finish my Move to P16. There I will use a move action to put away my spiked chain.

End my Turn.

Stats:

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Location: P16
HP: 17/17
AC: 20 Touch: 16 FF: 16 (+2 Pillar not included)
In Hand:
SoF (3/10)
Boots (0/3)

Spell Slots:
Level 0 - 3/3
Level 1 - 3/3

Maneuvers:

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Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Shadow Blade Technique, Clinging Shadow Strike, Stone Bones

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

Dang it. That's another reffing error by yours truly. I blame emotional distress brought on by Talic's cruel and heartless ref calls, here. Rewind Dusker's last post.

Amended LoS:

@Chile

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You see Dusker enter Q16 from the NE, triggering your readied action. He has cover.

@Dusker

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When you enter Q16 and see Chile in F23, he sees you, too.

@Greenscales

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You see Dusker enter Q16.

@Glunk

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You see Chile in F23

Chile's readied action is triggered.

[chilepepper]

What was that, like 40 posts ago? *scanning, scanning, scanning* AHA, found it. Wait, where am I again? *scanning, scanning* got it.

For those with LoS to Chile

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Chile pulls a small pebble out of a bag and throws it in a line approx. toward Z11 from his location

(big money, biiiig money, no whammies)
(1d20+4)[12] (-2 range, -2 cover)
(4d6)[16] bludgeoning

For those with LoS to Dusker

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A pebble flies at Dusker, possibly hitting

This concludes the hooligan portion of our show, please stay tuned for blood, guts, and gore.