Arena Tournament, Round 48: Stewie vs Flamekin

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 48: Stewie vs. Flamekin

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XP Award: 300 XP
GP Award: 300 GP

Talic - Stewie
theterran - Flamekin

All Gladiators, please roll initiative.

[Talic]

Checking in, debating purchases. That character scares me.

For the record, between rounds, I purchased a scroll and a potion. Wanted to make sure I had access to nerveskitter.

[theterran]

Just FYI, according to what I asked...you can't cast Nerveskitter off of a scroll before the match. At least according to what I was told.

I will update my character sheet and post Initiative shortly.

[Talic]

If you're looking at the same place I am (current waiting room), then the argument went farther than my first post.

Check the following posts in the waiting room (starting on page 23):
676 (your question)
679 (1st answer, by me)
685 (Morbius weighs in)
686 (Chile's 1st)
687 (dman)
688 (Chile reverses his position, cites Rules Compendium)
689 (I paraphrase the rule)
690 (dman again)
691 (Chile verifies my understanding of the rule)
696 (more RAW text for support of immediate action spells are immediate action reads)

Final consensus was that any item which duplicates a spell, uses that spell's casting time. If it does not duplicate a spell, spell completion items have an activation time of 1 standard action.

[theterran]

REALLY?

Must look then

Well alright then

[Talic]

Fair nuff. I tried to reference it well enough to make it easily findable.

[theterran]

Alright, Bought a scroll of Nerveskitter

I will use that scroll to help with INitiative

Initiative - (1d20+8)[16]

Stats to come.

[Talic]

KK. I'll forego using mine.

Initiative: (1d20+3)[18]

[Talic]

My Turn 1:

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Begin N1, potion of Hide from animals in 1 hand, Scroll in other.
Swift: Activate Travel Devotion.
Standard: Drink potion.
Move: N1 to U3.
Free: Drop empty potion in U2.

End Turn.

Stats:

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Location: U3
In Hand: Scroll
AC: 13 (+3 Dex)
HP: 9
Saves: 3/3/2
Effects: Travel Devotion 1/10
Essentia: 2/2 (uninvested)
Spells Remaining: 5/4

REFS NOTE: Theterran used an immediate action to cast Nerveskitter. That costs him his next swift action, namely, his round 1 swift action.

[theterran]

(Gah! Why can I NEVER win Init!)

Flamekin - Round 1

Actions

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Swift Action: Cast Swift Expeditious Retreat. Move to M11.

Ready an Action to cast Sudden Maximized Kelgore's Firebolt on LoE.

Spot - (1d20-2)[5]
Listen - (1d20-2)[12]
Hide - (1d20+3)[16] - Just in Case

End my Turn. LoS check...

Stats:

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Location: M11
HP:5/5
AC:13 Touch: 13 FF:10

Spells:

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Level 0 - Launch Bolt, Launch Bolt, Acid Splash, Acid Splash, Acid Splash
Level 1 - Swift Expeditious Retreat-x, Kelgore's Firebolt, Kelgore's Firebolt, Sticky Floor

[Adumbration]

Ref Adumbration (Yes, it's the fancy red color again. Sorry-eh)

Just a little clarification. Talic, I could swear you planned this.

@theterran and refs:

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Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Thus, you couldn't cast Swift expeditious retreat. This also begs the question if you can cast Nerveskitter, becouse one is flat-footed in the first round of the match, if memory serves correct.

[Bayar]

Ref Bayar

Reply to Adumbration:

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Neverskitter can be cast when you roll initiative. It doesnt matter if you are FF. It is in the spell description. If when rolling initiative you are FF, then the spell still allows you to cast it as an immediate action...it is an exception from the normal rules. Plus, that actually happens in round 0, when initiative is rolled.

[Talic]

So, is everything clear to continue? I noticed the link for ref involvement in the waiting room.

[theterran]

I would like another ref comment before we continue, as there is some descrepency concerning whether or not my move is legal.

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

@theterran, refs

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I uphold Ref Adumbration's ruling*. Casting Nerveskitter during initiative uses up your swift action for round 1. The swift expeditious retreat is illegal.

@bayar, there is no 'round 0' (CS majors, sit down.) "At the start of battle" is the top of Round 1.

If when rolling initiative you are FF, then the spell still allows you to cast it as an immediate action...it is an exception from the normal rules.

Can you support this with quotes? I don't see it under Immediate action. Is it part of the text of Nerveskitter?

*Just realized Adumbration made two points. As to the second, I consider the use of Nerveskitter itself to be settled law, though I admit I haven't studied the case history enumerated here.

theterran, please repost your turn.

[theterran]

((Meh...well that ruling hurts a little))

Flamekin - Round 1 (redux)


Actions:

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Well, if I can't go straight up the middle, might as well run for the cliffs.

Move to R21.

Ready an Action to cast Sudden Maximized Kelgore's Firebolt on LoE.

End Turn.

Stats;

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Location: R21
HP:5/5
AC:13 Touch: 13 FF:10

Spells:

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Level 0 - Launch Bolt, Launch Bolt, Acid Splash, Acid Splash, Acid Splash
Level 1 - Swift Expeditious Retreat, Kelgore's Firebolt, Kelgore's Firebolt, Sticky Floor

[Talic]

Stewie, Round 2

Island sinks a bit.

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Standard: Read Mirror image off of scroll.
CL Check: (1d20+1)[4] vs DC 4
Wis check if fail: (1d20)[2] vs DC 5

If Successful, (1d4+1)[2]

EDIT: Ugh, horrible. But better than nothing.

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Per Mirror Image:

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Per the text of mirror image, I will determine the success of the spell and place them accordingly.

Not done.

[Talic]

Turn (continued):

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Mirror images in U4, V4.

Free: Drop Prone, holding breath. (duration 32 rounds) This places me in shallow water, underwater, with 1 of my images visible on land (U4), and another in the water (V4).

As I am underwater, the surface of the water breaks LOE for fire spells (hooray for opponent being a one-trick pony). Further, I am granted full cover from ranged attacks made by opponents on shore.

Done. No LOS required.

Stats:

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Location: U3, prone, under shallow water.
In Hand: Scroll (Expeditious Retreat, Nerveskitter)
AC: 13 (+3 Dex)
HP: 9
Saves: 3/3/2
Effects: Travel Devotion 2/10, Hide from Animals 2/600, Mirror image (2) 1/180
Essentia: 2/2 (uninvested)
Spells Remaining: 5/4
Mirror images in U4, V4, prone (V4 underwater total cover)

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius


@Talic

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I don't think you can do what you want by RAW beacusa of this:

The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on

Because of that both images would drop prone like you, anything you do they will do as well

match on hold

[Talic]

High Ref Morbius


@Talic

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I don't think you can do what you want by RAW beacusa of this:



Because of that both images would drop prone like you, anything you do they will do as well

match on hold

@morbius:

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They're all prone. The one that's visible is in a 5 foot square that is not covered by water. Myself and the other one are in 5 foot squares with shallow water. Thus, when the first is prone, it is visible. When myself and the 2nd is prone, we have all the benefits and penalties of being submerged.

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius


@Talic

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Sneaky...(sorry about that)

move on

[theterran]

Did he mention LoS?

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius

Ahem, sorry
LOS

Stewie

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No LoS

Flamekin

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No LoS

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

Don't stop the match, I'm just chatting.

@refs

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So, how is line of sight going to work through water? By RAW, it looks like there's full cover going from land to water, but there's no mention of a problem going from water to land? If the person on land has a freedom of movement, he ignores the cover, but since I'm just talking about LoS consequences, there's a disconnect there. Even if it's murky, underwater visibility is measured in 10's of feet (I think somebody's never been scuba diving).

"Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." The Special, below is not applicable. It talks about Invisibility, which grants total concealment, but only a bonus to Hide checks. But that "usually" assumes that your total cover isn't transparent-- say, a thick pane of glass. What about water?

When Flamekin comes around that corner, is he going to see only the image on land or all three? I know what Talic assumes.

If he only sees one, should he be told that Stewie's (and therefore the image's) clothes are behaving strangely (floating, as the water bouys them)?

[theterran]

Flamekin - Round 2

Actions:

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Swift Action: Cast Swift Expeditious Retreat.
Move to U10.

Spot - (1d20-2)[5]
Listen - (1d20-2)[18]

Not Done. Need LoS.

Stats:

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Location: U10
HP:5/5
AC:13 Touch: 13 FF:10

Spells:

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Level 0 - Launch Bolt, Launch Bolt, Acid Splash, Acid Splash, Acid Splash
Level 1 - Swift Expeditious Retreat-x, Kelgore's Firebolt, Kelgore's Firebolt, Sticky Floor

[Morbius]

High Ref Maurkov

Don't stop the match, I'm just chatting.

@refs

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So, how is line of sight going to work through water? By RAW, it looks like there's full cover going from land to water, but there's no mention of a problem going from water to land? If the person on land has a freedom of movement, he ignores the cover, but since I'm just talking about LoS consequences, there's a disconnect there. Even if it's murky, underwater visibility is measured in 10's of feet (I think somebody's never been scuba diving).

"Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." The Special, below is not applicable. It talks about Invisibility, which grants total concealment, but only a bonus to Hide checks. But that "usually" assumes that your total cover isn't transparent-- say, a thick pane of glass. What about water?

When Flamekin comes around that corner, is he going to see only the image on land or all three? I know what Talic assumes.

If he only sees one, should he be told that Stewie's (and therefore the image's) clothes are behaving strangely (floating, as the water bouys them)?

High Ref Morbius

refs

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Actually when I think about it total cover does not actually means it blocks of Line of Sight (just see the glass arena for an example...

[Talic]

My understanding of the match thus far:

Any can read:

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I called attention to my Nerveskitter purchase, in an effort to persuade Theterran to match me. This worked. I then noted to refs in my round 1 action block that theterran lost his swift action for round 1 by doing that, as theterran's win strat here seems to be swift exp retreat(for enough move to gain LOS) + turbocharged spell on the first round.

Now that I've clogged his primary round 1 strat at the swift action stage, I move on with the rest of my stuff. Adumbration kinda gave me a hint that the clarification called for was what I suspected would happen (though in all honesty, any request for a brief pause for whatever reason would have confirmed it), and the followup by theterran on how the ruling hurt led me to believe that was upheld. As the match was freed to resume, I assume that's over and done with.

Since then, however, we've had Morbius and Maurkov having a "chat" (probably related to this match, or else it'd be in PM or waiting room). Since that point, refs have been avoiding LOS checks here like the plague (Bayar specifically assisted me the other day, and stated that the only matches that he didn't LOS were ones that involved him, or that he didn't feel comfortable LOS'ing) Thus, I'm guessing it's likely an issue that's currently relevant, and pertains to LOS, else it would have been updated in that last check.

@Refs only:

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TheTerran doesn't seem to have a lot of LOS tricks going on, by the character sheet. Mostly straightforward attack and defense, which is in keeping with his standard builds. Not ruling out that it could be his action that's causing the chaos, but, from experience, "chats" in arena matches tend to be over some esoteric point of note that could have match impact.

The only things I can think of that are questionable are:
Does hide from animals apply to the sharks in this arena? (my thoughts - yes, as nothing in the arena text hints that they are different from standard sharks.)
Something having to do with Mirror image and placement of the images.
Something having to do with the Water and its use.

As the first one isn't LOS related, I can likely rule it out. Especially since nobody's in deep water, and as shark attacks occur at end of turn, then I shan't have a chance of it prior to having the opportunity to try to move.

This leaves use of mirror image and use of water as the only things I could be having this question.

Unfortunately, that's about as much as I can currently deduce from the information available to me.

If this is in relation to my actions, and it won't provide me with an undue advantage, would it be possible to get a little more information on the holdup? At this point, I may very well be willing to concede a point to get this back on track.

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

@Talic

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You are perspicacious. Please read my comment at post 24 and explain how you expect LoS to work.

[Talic]

@Refs:

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If it will get this back on track, I'm more than willing to concede that yes, water is clear.

As for the buoyed clothing/etc... Typically LOS checks don't go into that much detail. However, it is within a ref's rights to extend the detail of an los check to include changes to appearance and status. If you feel it necessary to state that Stewie's clothing and hair are hanging loosely on his body, and drifting about in a slow, rhythmic pattern, do so. It won't impact my future strategy too much. I would request that you paraphrase it, rather than use "like they would if underwater". Let theterran have to at least put 2 and 2 together.

[theterran]

After all this talking...if a ref comes back and says "No LoS"...I'll be