Erfworld 127 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 115

[K2]

have to wonder, did any of the other dwagons make it? or just the one red?

[Welf]

Probably, it's socially accepted that no one speak to the linked wizards, and so they don't take precaution.

That's not necessary. Ordinary units like Bogroll aren't allowed to enter the room with the casters. And Stanley, Wanda, Sizemore and the other warlords knew about the link. Or Tool simply gave the order to not speak to them.

[SteveD]

have to wonder, did any of the other dwagons make it? or just the one red?

From the backgrounds it seems Stanley left them to occupy the warlords while he made good his escape.

[Krelon]

From the backgrounds it seems Stanley left them to occupy the warlords while he made good his escape.

Yeah, it looks like he made it alone.

Btw, nice double fooling. Foolamancers rock

[Gez]

Sizemore was never told what situation Parson had been trying to speak to Misty in.

"Who is Misty?"
"The Lookamancer."
"..."
"I know. Wanda already told me I booped up by talking to her."
"You did! D:"
":("
"Were the Eyemancers able to link up this turn?"
"Yeah but Misty hasn't talked to me again."
"Stop trying!!"

It seems the situation is pretty irrelevant. Talking to them is bad, period. No mitigating circumstances, it's always bad.

[Manoftyr]

Depending on how the rest of this goes and how his character develops Jack may immediately skyrocket past Vinny to become my new favorite character.

I have a thing for brilliant trickster type characters, especially of the maniacal and clownish variety ala Kefka or The Joker.

[Suicide Junkie]

Here's my take on it:

1) Panel 3 - Jillian there is the LAST line of defense; there are no units left between her stack and the path to FAQ.

FAQ <- Jillian <- Stanley <- Big Fight <- GK

2) Panel 8 - Now there are units visible in the distance as Jillian looks at the veiled Stanley

FAQ -> Jillian -> Veiled Stanley -> Big Fight -> GK
- then -
FAQ -> Jillian -> Big Fight -> Veiled Stanley -> GK
- then -
FAQ -> Big Fight -> Jillian -> Veiled Stanley -> GK

Stanley passed through or around the fight twice. The first time, he hammered Caesar, and the second time he was veiled as the bat cloud.

Therefore, unless the *big fight* is all an illusion, Stanley did not make it through to the other side of the chokepoint ambush; he got turned around, either by choice or by foolamancy.

[Ticktockcitrus]

First time poster here.

Just wanted to interject a possibly meaningless fact.

Cesare Borgia

...

Reading "Il Principe"-who knew it could help you uncover obscure webcomic references?

Also, I sorta figure the tool's heading for FAQ. First of all, he's not the type to spontaneously change his mind. Second of all, while Jack's a master-class foolamancer, HE doesn't really know anything about what's happening back at the Knob either. He knows there's some guy in charge who sounds a little more competent than the tool when you're having a conversation with him. That's it. On the basis of that, I don't think he'd be that horribly eager to suddenly cast an illusion to turn the tool around. Especially when we're talking about a guy who regularly hid cities. What's he got to be afraid of? Jillian, Ceasar, Vinny, and Co. ? With good intelligence, he managed to hide an entire kingdom for decades from absolutely everyone, including pretty much every transylvito force that ever flew around the area. I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near his limit to hide a city from a battered, stressed out, rather ragtag group of warlords and bats. Both because of his power, and his creative cunning. He's not a PREDICTABLE foolamancer, if there even is such a thing.

[Lamech]

Here's my take on it:

1) Panel 3 - Jillian there is the LAST line of defense; there are no units left between her stack and the path to FAQ.

FAQ <- Jillian <- Stanley <- Big Fight <- GK

2) Panel 8 - Now there are units visible in the distance as Jillian looks at the veiled Stanley

FAQ -> Jillian -> Veiled Stanley -> Big Fight -> GK
- then -
FAQ -> Jillian -> Big Fight -> Veiled Stanley -> GK
- then -
FAQ -> Big Fight -> Jillian -> Veiled Stanley -> GK

Stanley passed through or around the fight twice. The first time, he hammered Caesar, and the second time he was veiled as the bat cloud.

Therefore, unless the *big fight* is all an illusion, Stanley did not make it through to the other side of the chokepoint ambush; he got turned around, either by choice or by foolamancy.

Hmm... yes what Jillian sees certainly points to Stanley heading back to GK, but assuming that Stanley didn't change his mind, what he sees points to him returning to FAQ; that means that all your evidence for him being headed to GK must be falsified and replaced for Stanley. Stanley must have "seen" a fake big fight behind him to trick him and must have seen a fake background and what not. I think that Jillian and co. are just as likely to have been tricked as Stanley.

Or just the flight of bats was a viel on another fake dwagon and the real Stanley and dwagon left fairly early on in this strip.

[RDubyoo]

The entire fight was not an illusion. We can only speculate what was and was not just an illusion until after the point that Jack sees Jillian and recovers. Up until that point, all of Jack's spells were useless. So, in other words, Stanley's stack really did get mauled by Transylvito, Caesar did take a hammer-blow, but after Jack saw Jillian, almost anything could be true.

However! Warlords presumably have a much higher chance of spotting veiled units, judging from what Vinny said, so I have to assume that Jack just wanted to get out of the hex before it was too late. His illusions, no matter how clever they may be, can't fool so many warlords forever.

[ChowGuy]

Jillian, Ceasar, Vinny, and Co. ? With good intelligence, he managed to hide an entire kingdom for decades from absolutely everyone

who didn't know it was there. But it really doesn't matter to Stanley, unless he knows Jack coiuld do that. But that would only be true if also knows that he had been able to find it once anyway. On the other hand, he does know that there was a waiting ambush, and he's smart enough to realize that means someone had to have guessed where he was heading, and why. Who knows how he may think, maybe Charlie? Maybe Transylvitans who found the ruins after he left and guessed? Or simply added it to their on holdings and are now defending it? At this point it doesn't matter, the secret is out. He can't simply drop off the radar and expect no-one to look in the only possible place he could have gone, and without dwagons to hold it, it's of no use to him anymore.

I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near his limit to hide a city from a battered, stressed out, rather ragtag group of warlords and bats.

and Jillian who could probably could fly a Gwiffon there blindfolded and lead a stack with her. And Jack at least certainly knows that.

[DevilDan]

I doubt that Jack could veil a Faq city from Gillian, but could he use distractions to delay or confuse incoming forces? Very possibly.

[Suicide Junkie]

Or just the flight of bats was a viel on another fake dwagon and the real Stanley and dwagon left fairly early on in this strip.

The flight of bats was not a complete illusion, since we see that veil dispel as they leave the hex.

Also, as was mentioned before, fooling one tool of a warlord is far easier than fooling everybody else.
Stanley sounded clueless enough at the end.

And Vinnie knows quite quickly that the bats are not on his team when Jillian "hovers the mouse" over them. He had no such issues with the other forces they were looking at.

As far as veiling the cities, there are more than enough warlords and bats available to do a complete sweep of the area, if they wanted to look for Stanley near the actual FAQ site.
Jack can still only veil one city, so they WILL find at least two cities if they look for them. Once the cities are marked, it is all over for the "hide out in FAQ" plan.

Stanley could still be intending to head ultimately to FAQ...
Leading the ambush party away from FAQ this turn is an idea that I could see Stanley either coming up with or believing he came up with.
GK still hasn't fallen, and if he must wait until he goes barbarian before claiming FAQ, the delay doesn't really matter.

If he gets impatient waiting for the Knob to fall, maybe he will spend some of that treasury he can't take with him to quickly name Parson Heir... then order Parson to secede while taking the city with him. Splitting the faction the way royals sometimes like to do should accomplish the same goal as letting it fall, while at the same time retaining it as a good distraction for the alliance.

[ChowGuy]

Leading the ambush party away from FAQ this turn is an idea that I could see Stanley either coming up with or believing he came up with.

Alternatively, allowing them to think he was still heading on to FAQ, while actually doubling back. Had Vinny not questioned whether the hammer could fly him out of the hex, Caesar would not have ordered the ground sweep and he might not have been spotted ducking out the other way. It was a good plan, but he's Stanley. The Titans want him to work for his ultimate victory.

[MattR]

"Who is Misty?"
"The Lookamancer."
"..."
"I know. Wanda already told me I booped up by talking to her."
"You did! D:"
":("
"Were the Eyemancers able to link up this turn?"
"Yeah but Misty hasn't talked to me again."
"Stop trying!!"

It seems the situation is pretty irrelevant. Talking to them is bad, period. No mitigating circumstances, it's always bad.

Sizemore then says he'll be right there and on the next page we can see all the casters are linked up at the table... now in that instance it makes sense that Parson continuing to try and talk to Misty as an individual is dangerous.

Sizemore says that maybe nothing would happen from talking to them, why would he say that if it was certain to be dangerous?

[Allerdyce]

Could very easily be that talking to the casters as individuals has a chance, but doesn't certainly, break the link. Say, if it's a 25% chance to do nothing, a 40% chance to break and croak a caster, and a 35% chance to break and drive the casters insane, then it'd be dangerous to talk to them, even though there's a chance nothing could happen. It CERTAINLY is dangerous to tempt fate with your resources, while not being certain that anything bad will happen.

[Godskook]

Sizemore says that maybe nothing would happen from talking to them, why would he say that if it was certain to be dangerous?

There was a guy who jumped out of a plane, and without the use of a parachute(or anything similar), landed without injury - i.e., nothing happened. Yet, jumping out of a plane without a parachute is *very* dangerous. See? Jumping out of a plane without a parachute could result in immediate death, or nothing bad at all, but it is incredibly risking.

[kreszantas]

Maybe she just missed being talked to and interact with others. She looked liked a nice person. The day after her survival instincts probably kicked in.



His eyes only went back to normal after he saw Jillian (they reversed color). The illusion was cast when the dwagon grilled the gwiffons (Jillian even covered her eyes then). The fireworks made for nice cover. The orlies that were killed may have been illusions too, to give the impression the tool was fighting.

No I have to disagree, there are 2 separate casts. 1 for direction of travel and 1 for the combat itself. Unless proven otherwise in the next few issue I am going to stand by this. If not then you sir will get a full box of cookies

[MattR]

I'm not satisfied with any of the reasons suggested for why Misty was allowed to wander around unescorted if its dangerous for them to be spoken to.

Giving orders to everyone telling them not to speak to Misty seems more complicated then ordering Misty to stay in their room and not speak to anyone. Especially since the former would require repeating the order every time new troops are popped.

If when losing their individuality through the link the casters lost their basic sense of danger it'd be even more vital to keep them away from everyone else.

[MattR]

There was a guy who jumped out of a plane, and without the use of a parachute(or anything similar), landed without injury - i.e., nothing happened. Yet, jumping out of a plane without a parachute is *very* dangerous. See? Jumping out of a plane without a parachute could result in immediate death, or nothing bad at all, but it is incredibly risking.

If someone in your family said they were going to jump out of a plane with no parachute would you seriously give them three possible results? I'd imagine most people would just say 'youre crazy, you'll die.'

Plus its based on a law we can understand, gravity. Since three linked casters is rare i dont see under what conditions it could have been tested. If there had been even one instance before of casters dying through interference in a three-link i doubt anyone would risk linking three casters again. If you throw a guy out of an airplane with no parachute and he dies are you going to keep throwing others out just incase they live?

[Allerdyce]

If someone in your family said they were going to jump out of a plane with no parachute would you seriously give them three possible results? I'd imagine most people would just say 'youre crazy, you'll die.'

Well, to be fair, Parson's already been told "you'll die" as it were, so it's being explained to him WHY it was a bad idea. And if the first guy who'd jumped from an airplane without a parachute survived, or it accomplished a useful aim prior to causing death, yes, people would try it again, even if only during desperate circumstances. Sorry if I'm butting in, but work is pretty boring.

[MattR]

Ditto on posting from work, i post when i'm stuck on hold. Wish theyd pick some decent music.

[Aeryn]

I also just got that Stanley being sure of taking the foolamancer wasn't just a way to bring his dwagons along veiled. It also gave him the means to keep Faq hidden the same way it used to be.

I suppose that's obvious, but it has two interesting implications. One, a knowledge of Faq's circumstances before it fell. Two, Stanley really does have the makings of a good commander, if he didn't think he were fated to win and hadn't picked fights he didn't need to.

I really would like to see the plot advance to a point where Parson can become the faction leader of GK while Stanley can become Chief Warlord. He's a great commander in the field, just not a good Overlord...

[BarGamer]

There was a guy who jumped out of a plane, and without the use of a parachute(or anything similar), landed without injury - i.e., nothing happened. Yet, jumping out of a plane without a parachute is *very* dangerous. See? Jumping out of a plane without a parachute could result in immediate death, or nothing bad at all, but it is incredibly risking.

Was the plane on the ground? XD Or did he pull some cheesy action move, shoot a bazooka at the water below, and dived into it? Nevertheless, as we can see, the point is moot, as the link is gone, Misty is dead, and we've got more IMMEDIATE problems to deal with. Like say, the glowing mothy Sword of Damocles hanging over Parson's head, and the (apparently) still uncertain destination of Stanley and whoever is with him, as well as Wanda's role in the upcoming siege...

Unless we have proof or reasonable speculation to believe Parson's going to make another Mindmeld, and still going to talk to said members as individuals, which I highly doubt, after Misty's death, what's the big fuss??

[ChowGuy]

Giving orders to everyone telling them not to speak to Misty

Should be quite unnecessary. The command room, the only place we see Misty, has guards on the entrance. No one in or out without authorization, and those who are - high level casters and chief warlords - should pop with the knowledge that messing with a link is bad new. This is another case of Parson simply not knowing what everyone assumes he ought to. Wanda perhaps should have told him before, but we know from the Klogs she's not been very good about volunteering information on a lot of things.
[quote]seems more complicated then ordering Misty to stay in their room[quote]
She did. The command room is her room. She merely wandered over to see who or what was messing around there off-turn. Turns out it was the Chief Warlord, who spoke to her first. Although he ought to have known better, duty required an answer. If you're compelled by natural thinkamancy to obey your superior and he orders you to jump out of a plane, you jump.

and [order her] not speak to anyone.

Which we have no reason to believe she wasn't. She certainly was upset as soon as she saw Wanda come in, even before the latter said anything. Knowing she's broken a strict order would be amply sufficient to account for that, without any convoluted "I know what you know that you don't want him to know" mumbo-jumbo.

Nor does Wanda speak to or express her anger at Misty at any point, not even to dismiss her, only to Parson. Misty knows she's done wrong, and knows why.

[fendrin]

Sizemore was never told what situation Parson had been trying to speak to Misty in.

Also Three-caster linking is rare if its even ever been tried before so no-one could really know what effect talking to someone in it could have.

Doesn't anyone even think its weird Stanley of all people came up with the idea of linking them?

Linking is not as rare or unheard of as you think. Sizemore talks of sides with mathemancer-luckamancer links. As a link requires a thinkamancer, that makes three casters. Also, he mentions that a 3-caster link is difficult and dangerous, and that a four-caster link is not even possible. That means not only have others tried (and had mixed results with) 3-caster links, there have been attempts at 4-caster links, which have all failed.

I'm not satisfied with any of the reasons suggested for why Misty was allowed to wander around unescorted if its dangerous for them to be spoken to.

Giving orders to everyone telling them not to speak to Misty seems more complicated then ordering Misty to stay in their room and not speak to anyone. Especially since the former would require repeating the order every time new troops are popped.

If when losing their individuality through the link the casters lost their basic sense of danger it'd be even more vital to keep them away from everyone else.

She's not wandering around, she is a prisoner in the control room, under guard. She is 'protected' from new troops by the guards. They can't stop Parson as he outranks them. Stanley (or a subordinate) only has to give orders to the guards once. It's Stanley, Wanda, and Sizemore's fault for not telling Parson. It seems like they are all surprised by his initiative, though.

My guess as to Misty's exhibition of distinct personality is that if Maggie and Jack were asleep, then Misty's mind would be able to establish dominance, allowing her to be more or less herself. Certainly an incentive to stay awake longer.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Nor does Wanda speak to or express her anger at Misty at any point, not even to dismiss her, only to Parson. Misty knows she's done wrong, and knows why.

Wanda also knows better than to talk to Misty, as that would just further risk breaking the link. Besides, what good would it do? Misty is already in (what I believe to be) the biggest punishment a caster can be put in short of being disbanded... and Misty's far too valuable for that.

[WalkingTarget]

First time poster here.

Just wanted to interject a possibly meaningless fact.

Cesare Borgia

...

Reading "Il Principe"-who knew it could help you uncover obscure webcomic references?

Well, there's also the fact that there are casinos called Caesar's and Borgata in Atlantic City, NJ (a town which, at the very least, was frequented in The Sopranos).

[ChowGuy]

[QUOTE=fendrin;5121203]My guess as to Misty's exhibition of distinct personality is that if Maggie and Jack were asleep, then Misty's mind would be able to establish dominance, allowing her to be more or less herself. Certainly an incentive to stay awake longer.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Edit: Revised Ninja: She did not "wander over" to Parson, she was summoned over. He's standing at the table when he first sees her peeking through the curtains of what is likely her sleeping alcove, and calls out to her. There follows a series of direct questions, ending with an explicit What's your name?" She is effectively, at that point, asked to re-assert her individuality, by someone she is compelled to obey.

[fendrin]

Edit: Revised Ninja: She did not "wander over" to Parson, she was summoned over. He's standing at the table when he first sees her peeking through the curtains of what is likely her sleeping alcove, and calls out to her. There follows a series of direct questions, ending with an explicit What's your name?" She is effectively, at that point, asked to re-assert her individuality, by someone she is compelled to obey.

I agree, she was implicitly ordered to approach Parson and converse.

However, she displays a bit of personality (in the form of apologizing) one panel prior to Parson asking her name.

Ruminating and expanding upon my thesis of sleeping minds being non-dominant, it could also help explain why the link didn't break. That is, the 'break' caused by talking to a linked 'mancer would actually be from the melded minds struggling for dominance... basically treating a linked 'mancer as an individual would heighten the 'I-Thou' distinction, causing a schism in the conglomerate mind. If the shism is too severe, *pop* the weakened link breaks, sending backlash to the 'mancers, possibly causing death, insanity, or loss of magic.

If Maggie and Jack were asleep and thus non-dominant, then Misty's personality would have been able to dominate the conglomerate rather than schism it. Kind of like how various aspects of our personality can be 'dominant' at various times without developing a full-blown case of Multiple Personality Disorder.

[DevilDan]

Just a minor point: Parson couldn't go into the war room just because he outranked the guard, but probably only because he's an officer of sufficiently high rank. The guards probably have directions from Stanley on the subject, which is why they would not allow Bogroll to enter.

So, asides from the guards themselves, there are multiple reasons why it wouldn't even be necessary to order Misty to keep to herself, including self-preservation, exhaustion, the guards, and the fact that everyone popped on Erf (with sufficient brains) knows it's dangerous for the mind-melded casters. Note that Misty was allowed told that she was allowed to go back to sleep; if Stanley's orders had somehow been superseded or worked-around by Parson, they should have reasserted themselves then.

I have no reason to doubt that Sizemore knows quite a bit about caster links, quite possibly more than Wanda.