The Introduction of magic into a D&D Economy

[Oracle_Hunter]

Likewise dragons, why do they care? Unless the wizards are inclined to hunt them down (which they have no reason to do) then it's more trouble than it's worth (and draconomicon says that dragons are generally pretty lazy). Throw in the fact that they are sorcerers with a very limited spell list and it gets even worse.

Aren't dragons notoriously paranoid?

Even the laziest paranoid dragon would use divination to identify likely threats to their existence. Since adventurers are known for killing evil creatures with large treasure troves, I'd figure any dragon who identified an adventurer as a potential threat would try to take him out sooner rather than later. Indeed, the most ancient of dragons would have to have been very successful at this - natural selection and all.

Now, I'm not really up on Dragons with class levels, but if they can become Epic Casters, why wouldn't they? And if they become Epic Casters, wouldn't they want to use that power to chop off any potential rivals? I mean, there can't be that many high-level adventurers in the world to pay attention to, right?

[Yukitsu]

I think they did.

I mean, half the things that can crush the wannabe Tippy casters are doing it because they are themselves Tippy casters.

[Oslecamo]

I think they did.

I mean, half the things that can crush the wannabe Tippy casters are doing it because they are themselves Tippy casters.

Just because you're a Tippycaster it doesn't mean you want to make the world a better place, aka trying to start Tippyland. Specially when the other Tippcasters are waiting for a moment of weakness from you to jump at your throat before you jump at theirs.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I think they did.

I mean, half the things that can crush the wannabe Tippy casters are doing it because they are themselves Tippy casters.

I mean generally.

I dunno about Eberron, but considering the generic write-ups of dragons I've read, it seems like any world with a Great Wyrm Chromatic Dragon would have to be like this, unless there was a similar Metallic one keeping it in check.

[Yukitsu]

More generally? Align yourself to someone big enough to guarantee protection, and don't tell anyone your level until it's already too late.

[Oracle_Hunter]

More generally? Align yourself to someone big enough to guarantee protection, and don't tell anyone your level until it's already too late.

But can you foil high-level divinations like that? And who can protect you from an Epic Caster aside from other Epic Casters?

[Yukitsu]

In theory you can block the high level divinations if you get a few name changes through your life and don't plan on backstabbing anyone. Divinations don't tell level, and since they don't seem to axe mid range wizards, you can likely get away with it.

Epic divinations will shred any protection you put up, but you can simply act in a manner that will imply that you will never be a threat to the person doing the divination. (ie. geas yourself to not attack that person.)

[Oslecamo]

More generally? Align yourself to someone big enough to guarantee protection, and don't tell anyone your level until it's already too late.

Your "protector" is surely going to notice when you start killing beholders as a warm up and you don't bother to kill goblins anymore.

Also, the trap soul spell says it's possible to discover how much HD someone has with some carefull study, in order to know how valuable the traping jewel must be.

[Yukitsu]

If your protector is sizing you up for a trap the soul, I think you're pretty much doomed anyway.

Edit: Remember kids, HD=/= caster levels. Don't kill that commoner 19 wizard 1 just because you want to stop the Tippyverse. You'll fall for trying.

[AKA_Bait]

In theory you can block the high level divinations if you get a few name changes through your life and don't plan on backstabbing anyone. Divinations don't tell level, and since they don't seem to axe mid range wizards, you can likely get away with it.

Epic divinations will shred any protection you put up, but you can simply act in a manner that will imply that you will never be a threat to the person doing the divination. (ie. geas yourself to not attack that person.)

I'm not really sure that would work. Heck, I'm pretty sure one could craft a contingent spell that would instantly teleport them to the location of a character that just cast a 9th (or 8th) level spell. I.E., if someone gets powerful enough to be a potential threat Big Bad Dragon Tippyslayer automatically end ups nose to nose with the caster.

[Yukitsu]

Yeah, you kind of need a skillful enchanted weapon, so you can pretend to be a gish build, ignoring your ninth level spells until you hit epic anyway. Basically, you can't stop the divinations from getting you, but you can stop them from relaying the answers you don't want relayed simply by not doing whatever it is the diety thinks you might be doing.

[AKA_Bait]

Yeah, you kind of need a skillful enchanted weapon, so you can pretend to be a gish build, ignoring your ninth level spells until you hit epic anyway. Basically, you can't stop the divinations from getting you, but you can stop them from relaying the answers you don't want relayed simply by not doing whatever it is the diety thinks you might be doing.

Well, in the alternative, the trigger for the contingent spell could simply be whenever someone starts the process of developing an epic spell. It takes at least a day to deveop an epic spell, so our anti-tippy chromatic dragon should still have plenty of time to eat the face of the aspiring tippy caster before they actually get to use any epic magic.

[Emperor Tippy]

Contingent spells require that you know that the trigger condition has occurred. You can't use them as super uber divinations.

[Yukitsu]

That's true. On the other hand, unlike the divination seed, the transport seed can't break non-epic means of stopping the teleport, meaning unless the wizard can safely scribe from within a magnificent mansion with forbiddance. A technique that obviously doesn't work pre epic, because at that point, he still needs to level.

[Oslecamo]

Contingent spells require that you know that the trigger condition has occurred. You can't use them as super uber divinations.

And that's why you create an epic custom contigent spell:D

if(Tippyland=true){
Scanf location
Cast mourning
?
Profit
}

else killing catgirls=1

[AKA_Bait]

Contingent spells require that you know that the trigger condition has occurred. You can't use them as super uber divinations.

Where are you getting that from? I don't see that requirement anyplace and considering the below it seems unlikley to be the case.

A contingent spell is tied to the bearer’s body, alive or dead, and stories circulate among adventurers of contingent spells remaining quiet for hundreds of years on a slain bearer’s remains, only to suddenly activate when the proper trigger condition arises.

And yes, I realize that using a contingent spell this way is against the spirit of the idea, but so is making create food and water traps so I'm not letting that stop me from making the argument.

[Yukitsu]

Even an epic port won't bring you face to face with a wizard using a magnificent mansion and a dimension lock. Especially if he cast magnificent mansion while in a portable hole that was turned inside out then dimension locked.

[Darkmatter]

The power mind blank is an extremely effective way for an aspiring wizard-slayer (and caster herself) to remain off the enemy's radar, and in this kind of place, it would be an absolute must. This means that psions would likely be the most common high level casters, due to the fact that they get mind blank (personal) at 13th level, two levels before anyone else gets the effect. Once they hit 15th level, they (and any wizard friends) can mind blank the whole party. A CR 12 doesn't give any experience to a level 20 wizard, so wouldn't show up on any divinations for major threats, and at CR 13, she enjoys blanket protection from any divination but metafaculty, which requires the subject to have been seen by the diviner beforehand. Thus, anyone growing up on the "outside" will be able to remain undetected by the wizard rulers until they decide to topple the system which has oppressed them. Meanwhile, the wizards would be pinned in their castles, since their rivals (all with the same high level divinations) would be watching their moves like hawks, eager for that delicious XP...

It still seems to me like rather than a stalemate, this situation will result in a constant and tumultuous turnover of power.

This, of course, supposes that epic casting is not in use by the wizard-rulers, which is believable due to their deficiency of XP - once everyone knows about them, mind blank won't be enough.

[Yukitsu]

Where are you getting that from? I don't see that requirement anyplace and considering the below it seems unlikley to be the case.

The activation typically requires the spell be cast on, or at least near the caster himself, the alternative being a useless item and a ton of wasted gold. (Oh, high dragon Bob, thought it was a jerk wizard making an epic spell. No Dragon Jim, just me making a spell to kill jerk wizards better.)

[Emperor Tippy]

The power mind blank is an extremely effective way for an aspiring wizard-slayer (and caster herself) to remain off the enemy's radar, and in this kind of place, it would be an absolute must. This means that psions would likely be the most common high level casters, due to the fact that they get mind blank (personal) at 13th level, two levels before anyone else gets the effect. Once they hit 15th level, they (and any wizard friends) can mind blank the whole party. A CR 12 doesn't give any experience to a level 20 wizard, so wouldn't show up on any divinations for major threats, and at CR 13, she enjoys blanket protection from any divination but metafaculty, which requires the subject to have been seen by the diviner beforehand. Thus, anyone growing up on the "outside" will be able to remain undetected by the wizard rulers until they decide to topple the system which has oppressed them. Meanwhile, the wizards would be pinned in their castles, since their rivals (all with the same high level divinations) would be watching their moves like hawks, eager for that delicious XP...

It still seems to me like rather than a stalemate, this situation will result in a constant and tumultuous turnover of power.

This, of course, supposes that epic casting is not in use by the wizard-rulers, which is believable due to their deficiency of XP - once everyone knows about them, mind blank won't be enough.

Who said anything about oppressing them? The wizards in charge have no interest in oppressing anyone. Smart wizards, which they universally are by the requirements of high level casting, don't take actions that will weaken them as a whole. It's much easier to just bring any caster who reaches high levels into the fold, and if they won't go along they just gang up on them and off them.

As for XP, these wizards all have their contingent True Res. So daily they just fight each other too the death and then get ressed. Gaining 6,000 XP (if they are both level 20). And the True Res trap means that they don't even have to pay for that. Two level 20 wizards just stand on them and attack each other. Every death counts as overcoming the encounter so they gain XP.

[AKA_Bait]

The activation typically requires the spell be cast on, or at least near the caster himself, the alternative being a useless item and a ton of wasted gold.

Typically, yes. Hence my comment about it being against the spirit of craft contingent spell. However, CA only says that triggers 'are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell,' not that they have to be.

(Oh, high dragon Bob, thought it was a jerk wizard making an epic spell. No Dragon Jim, just me making a spell to kill jerk wizards better.)

Well, yes. That would happen. Of course, depending upon the dragons, Dragon Jim might be just as willing to murder Dragon Bob for reaching that level of arcane power too.

[Yukitsu]

Dragons Bob and Jim can't fight eachother without risking starting a massive dragon paranoia style war which would in all odds lead to their demise. Since both of the are assumed to already be epic level casters, they will be researching the spells all the time anyway. This is why you want to go RAI on the contingent spell. If you don't, you wind up talking to a lot of dragons, or wind up not talking to a lot of people that prepared polymorph.

[Inyssius Tor]

Or, y'know, a gigantic epic-level dragon war followed by a massive cataclysm and the extinction of all the dragons bar one.

Who would presumably end up bereft of any opponents whatsoever, and in possession both of all the other dragons' treasure and of a very good motive to keep more epic-level casters from showing up.

[AKA_Bait]

Dragons Bob and Jim can't fight eachother without risking starting a massive dragon paranoia style war which would in all odds lead to their demise. Since both of the are assumed to already be epic level casters, they will be researching the spells all the time anyway.

Why are we assuming lots of epic spell casting dragons (or gods, etc)? I was assuming just one... when someone else starts preparing an epic spell the contingency kicks in and they kill the interloper before they can even touch them. I think Chromatic dragons would behave this way without a second thought.

I could easily tailor the contingency to be more specific (i.e. to exclude spells being prepared within the dragons lair for example) if we want to have more than one epic caster that are all on the same side.

Or, y'know, a gigantic epic-level dragon war followed by a massive cataclysm and the extinction of all the dragons bar one.

We don't even quite need that. We just need a Dragon ruthless enough to kill any other dragons of it's kind once they start getting powerful enough. They can keep others around to breed with so long as Daddy is willing to murder his children/consort as soon as they could potentially pose a threat.

[kopout]

Well, in the alternative, the trigger for the contingent spell could simply be whenever someone starts the process of developing an epic spell. It takes at least a day to develop an epic spell, so our anti-tippy chromatic dragon should still have plenty of time to eat the face of the aspiring tippy caster before they actually get to use any epic magic.

But someone powerful enough to develop an Epic spell
could just brake off the development and kill the tippy slayer. With the non-Epic magic they already have, or assemble a team to protect them. I mean if it is know to at lest a few casters that dragons go around doing this they could set up a conspiracy to destroy the dragons for the benefit of all casters (themselves especially) with all the old and powerful dragons dead, and a tradition of killing dragons before they get powerful, a Tippy society becomes increasingly likely as time goes on provided no medaling gods it is extreamly likely to survive and become the norm with "traditional" nations being few and far between.

[Yukitsu]

The metalics all work together in communities, and have two of the higher dragon types (silver and gold) as opposed to the chromatics which have only one greater dragon type. (red, IIRC) The metalics have a bit of an advantage in this field, and as such, any metalic that hits epic is likely to keep getting stronger.

[Yukitsu]

But someone powerful enough to develop an Epic spell
could just brake off the development and kill the tippy slayer. With the non-Epic magic they already have, or assemble a team to protect them. I mean if it is know to at lest a few casters that dragons go around doing this they could set up a conspiracy to destroy the dragons for the benefit of all casters (themselves especially) with all the old and powerful dragons dead, and a tradition of killing dragons before they get powerful, a Tippy society becomes increasingly likely as time goes on provided no medaling gods it is extreamly likely to survive and become the norm with "traditional" nations being few and far between.

We're assuming epic level caster dragons. As such, the combination of better stats, better casting and a more powerful form, siding with the dragon on the conflict would probably be the safe bet.

[kopout]

We're assuming epic level caster dragons. As such, the combination of better stats, better casting and a more powerful form, siding with the dragon on the conflict would probably be the safe bet.

True, but People can kill dragons. It has been done before and can be done again!
Edit; A cabal of sub-Epic wizards and their Epic leader, with a supporting contingent of meat shields, can kill a dragon or two ,or three, or......

[Fizban]

Who said anything about oppressing them? The wizards in charge have no interest in oppressing anyone. Smart wizards, which they universally are by the requirements of high level casting, don't take actions that will weaken them as a whole. It's much easier to just bring any caster who reaches high levels into the fold, and if they won't go along they just gang up on them and off them.

As for XP, these wizards all have their contingent True Res. So daily they just fight each other too the death and then get ressed. Gaining 6,000 XP (if they are both level 20). And the True Res trap means that they don't even have to pay for that. Two level 20 wizards just stand on them and attack each other. Every death counts as overcoming the encounter so they gain XP.

They don't even need the traps: you can get half xp for a nonlethal encounter that still has some significance. If killing each other mindlessly with promise of resurrection nets xp, then nonlethal duels will too. Without the annoying pain of dying over and over again. If you need a justification for the encounter they're overcoming, the winner gets official wizard sanctioned bragging rights until the next fight.

[Dervag]

This presumes, of course, that there are no Epic Casters in the world. It could be all potential Epic Casters are given a "Join or Die" ultimatum at some point - they can either serve a divinity as a proxy or be erased from existence. The binding that divine proxies are subject to should be sufficient to prevent any later Epic Casting from threatening the Gods.

So... the penalty for hubris is recruitment?

As for XP, these wizards all have their contingent True Res. So daily they just fight each other too the death and then get ressed. Gaining 6,000 XP (if they are both level 20). And the True Res trap means that they don't even have to pay for that. Two level 20 wizards just stand on them and attack each other. Every death counts as overcoming the encounter so they gain XP.

Doesn't that rely on you trusting someone else to stick you in the True Resurrection trap?