[3.5 ToB] The Martial Dabbler (Prc) [Peach]

[zagan]

MARTIAL DABBLER


A sorceress who learned a few Diamond Mind maneuver.

The sublime way is just so cool, but I don’t want to lose ground against my mage brother. I know ! I’ll just study both.

Derem Fernos, an aspiring Martial Dabbler

Martial dabbler are those that have discovered and become interested in the sublime way but that do not wish to pursue it above and beyond their own specialty. For this reason they continue to pursue their own path, with perhaps just a touch less vigor than other more focused on similar path, while still studying the sublime way on the side. In the end they’ll never become the equal of more focused martial adept such as warblade, but the trick they’ll learn from the sublime way will help them and compliment their true path.

BECOMING A MARTIAL DABBLER
Any character can become martial dabbler, well any character beside martial adept

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Martial Lore 4 ranks, 9 ranks in the skills grant by your martial study feat
Feats: Martial Study
Special: Must not posses any martial adept level before becoming a martial dabbler

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Martial Lore (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Tumble (Dex)
Skills Points at Each Level: 2 + int

Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]

Level

|

Base Attack Bonus

|

Fort Save

|

Ref Save

|

Will Save

|

Special

|

Class Features

1st|

+0

|

+2

|

+0

|

+0

|Maneuvers Recovery|+1 level of existing class level

2nd|

+1

|

+3

|

+0

|

+0

|Martial Study|

3rd|

+2

|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|Discipline Skill, Martial Stance|+1 level of existing class level

4th|

+3

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Martial Study|

5th|

+3

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Initiating Bonus|+1 level of existing class level
[/table]

Weapon Proficiencies: You gain proficiency with the simple and martial weapon associate with the martial discipline that you’ve chosen when selecting your martial study feat.

Maneuvers Recovery (Ex): Starting at first level you gain a way to recover the maneuvers you’ve learned via your martial study feats. You can recover either one maneuver as a move action or two maneuver as a standard action. You cannot recover a maneuver in the same round that you expend it and you cannot expend a maneuver in the same round that you’ve recover it.

Class features:: At each level except 2nd and 4th, you can progress one, and only one, class feature (detail below) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain the benefit of your previous class’s Hit Dice, Base attack bonus, skill points, or saving throws. If you had more than one class before becoming a martial dabbler, you must decide to which class to adds each level of this prestige class for the purpose of determining class features. You must already possess those ability to be able to progress them, this prestige class doesn’t grant them. If you posses an ability that is not in the list below then your martial dabbler level cannot progress it.

• Aura: You learn additional aura as if you had gained a level in any one aura using class you have previously gained levels in. These levels stack with your previous levels to determine the power of these aura.
• Bardic music: You gain additional bardic music per day as if you had gained a level in the bard class. These levels stack with your previous levels to determine the bonus granted and what type of music you can use. (provide you met the skill requirement.)
• Companion: These levels stack with any one class level that grant you a companion (animal companion, familiar, special mount or other) to determine your effective level for the purpose of that companion stat and ability.
• Hexblade’s Curse: These levels stack with any previous hexblade level to determine the number of time per day you can use your hexblade curse and the save DC of the curse.
• Fighter Levels: If when taking your first level of martial dabbler you choose to progress your fighter level rather than the typical 3 level progression, selecting fighter levels changes the Base attack bonus progression of martial dabbler to be equal to your martial dabbler level, and the d8 hit dice of this class becomes d10. In addition the 1st, 3rd, and 5th levels of this class are treated as fighter levels for the purpose of feat prerequisites. Finally by choosing to progress your fighter level you lose the ability to progress any other class feature for your remaining martial dabbler level.
• Inspiration point: These levels stack with those of any previous factotum level to determine the number of inspiration point you gain per encounter.
• Knight’s challenge: This level stack with any previous knight level to determine the number of time you can use your knights challenge ability, the save DC of the challenge, the bonus granted when you used it and the option available to you when you use it.
• Manifesting: You gain additional power points per day, an increase in manifester level, and access to new powers as if you had also gained a level in whatever manifesting class to which you belong before adding this prestige class level.
• Meldshaping: You increase your meldshaper level, the number of soulmelds you can shape, the number of chakra binds you can create, and your essentia pool as if you had gained a level in the meldshaping class to which you belonged before adding this prestige class level.
• Mind Blade: This level stack with those of any previous soulblade level to determine the enhancement bonus of your mindblade and the special ability that can be add to it.
• Monk ability: This level stack with those of any previous monk (or unarmed swordsage) level to determine the damage dealt by your unarmed strike and your AC bonus.
• Precision damage: This level stack with those of any previous class that grant you any form of precision damage (sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish or similar) for the purpose of determining the damage dealt and for skirmish the AC bonus.
• Rage: This level stack with those of any one previous class level granting you a rage of any sort for the purpose of determining the number of time per day you can use it and the intensity of the rage (Greater, Mighty).
• Smiting: This level stack with those of any previous class granting you a smiting ability of any sort for the purpose of determining the number of time per day you can use it and the bonus damage dealt.
• Soul Binding: Your soulbinding improves as if you had also gain a level in a binding class. Thus, these levels and your binding class level stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher level vestiges and the numbers of vestiges you can bind.
• Spellcasting: You gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level . (This can also apply to invocation using class like the warlock or dragonfire adept and augment the damage dealt by their eldritch blast or breath weapon as normal, or even apply to any mystery using class like the shadowcasters)
• Truenaming: You learn additional utterances as if you had gained a level in any one truenaming class you have previously gained levels in. These levels stack with your previous levels to determine your truenamer level.
• Wildshape: These levels stack with those of any previous druid level (or any other class granting wildshape) to determine the number of time per day you can use it, the size of the form you can take and what type of creature you can turn into.

Martial Study (Ex): At second level and again at fourth level you gain martial study as a bonus feat, you must select a maneuver from the discipline that you’ve chosen when selecting your previous martial study feat. In addition you can now select the martial study feat any numbers of times not just three times as normal.

Discipline Skill (Ex): At third level you gain a competence bonus on check made involving the skills associate with the martial discipline that you’ve chosen when selecting your martial study feats. This bonus is equal to your class level.

Martial Stance: At third level you gain martial stance as a bonus feat. You must select a stance from the discipline that you’ve chosen when selecting your martial study feat.

Initiating Bonus: Starting at fifth level your initiator level become equal to three-quarter your character level instead of half. You immediately lose the benefit of this ability if you gain level in any martial adept base class or prestige class.

------------------------------------------------

Author note: This class was created with the intent of allowing character to gain a recovery mechanic for the maneuver they learned via the martial study feat. In addition it's for those that posses a class feature that's not progressed by any existing ToB Prc such as animal companion, truenaming, sudden strike, etc...
The thing is that I'm afraid that I'm made it too good particularly for spellcaster, I could disallow spellcasting from progressing but that seem arbitrary and inelegent. What do you think ?

EDIT: Following the advices I received I changed the class a little, it now progress class feature at 1st, 3rd and 5th level, I reduced the benefit of the class features progression and it granted martial study twice. Is that better ?

EDIT 2: Add the possibility of progressing fighter level as was suggested by NeoSeraphi.

[gkathellar]

So why wouldn't I take 4 levels in this class? This is basically like saying, "Ok, here's a free upgrade for all you druids and meldshapers."

[Hiro Protagonest]

So why wouldn't I take 4 levels in this class? This is basically like saying, "Ok, here's a free upgrade for all you druids and meldshapers."

It requires you to spend 8 points in a subpar skill.

Maybe add Weapon Focus (any favored weapon of the discipline you have Martial Study for)?

[bindin garoth]

You could only allow it progress major class features (such as spellcasting or soul binding or incarnium or wildshaping (Druids don't get both)). This way they must decide which is more important, their class features or some martial maneuvers.

I'd also allow the Initiating bonus to remove the limit of taking the martial study feat only 3 times. You're limited to taking it only once more after this class, which does not allow you to really take advantage of the increased initiator level.

[Pyromancer999]

So why wouldn't I take 4 levels in this class? This is basically like saying, "Ok, here's a free upgrade for all you druids and meldshapers."

Well, you'd take the 5th level for a drastic increase in your IL. Say you took the 4th level of this class at 11th. Your initiator level is 5. Then take the 5th level at 12th, and all of a sudden, your initiator level is 9, almost twice what it was before. Still, I disagree with Initiating Bonus's "take a level in an initiating class and you lose this benefit" thing. I'd just say change the initiating level thing from IL= initiating class levels + 1/2 other class levels to IL = initiating class levels + 3/4 other class levels. Otherwise, might as well not take 5th level at all.

Also, I think one could feasibly allow at least one additional maneuver and possibly another stance in this PrC.

Edit:
Lastly, as for the spellcasting progression and other class features, I'd recommend doing it like my Necrotic Disciple PrC: Advance existing class features as though a person had gained a level in the class, but not allow new ones. This would make it more balanced a progression, and in my games at least, would allow casters a progression in caster level, but not allow for new spell slots. If that's not normally the case, you could just include a clause for that. Hope that helps.

[zagan]

So why wouldn't I take 4 levels in this class? This is basically like saying, "Ok, here's a free upgrade for all you druids and meldshapers."

Yeah, I sure your point and in my first draft it didn't progress class feature at first and fifth level. But after thinking about it I realise that if I do that the class become virtually useless a one level dip in warblade, swordsage or crusader become automatically better.

It requires you to spend 8 points in a subpar skill.

Maybe add Weapon Focus (any favored weapon of the discipline you have Martial Study for)?

Weapon focus is not a bad idea, I'll think about it.

You could only allow it progress major class features (such as spellcasting or soul binding or incarnium or wildshaping (Druids don't get both)). This way they must decide which is more important, their class features or some martial maneuvers.

It was first impulse, but it need a much more complex wording (the one I used for the evolutionist for example). I may do that.

I'd also allow the Initiating bonus to remove the limit of taking the martial study feat only 3 times. You're limited to taking it only once more after this class, which does not allow you to really take advantage of the increased initiator level.

The limit is removedn it's indicated with the bonus martial study feat.

Edit:

Well, you'd take the 5th level for a drastic increase in your IL. Say you took the 4th level of this class at 11th. Your initiator level is 5. Then take the 5th level at 12th, and all of a sudden, your initiator level is 9, almost twice what it was before. Still, I disagree with Initiating Bonus's "take a level in an initiating class and you lose this benefit" thing. I'd just say change the initiating level thing from IL= initiating class levels + 1/2 other class levels to IL = initiating class levels + 3/4 other class levels. Otherwise, might as well not take 5th level at all.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. If you intend to take level in intiating class why do you need martial dabbler level ?

Also, I think one could feasibly allow at least one additional maneuver and possibly another stance in this PrC.

With the class feature progression, it might be a little too much.

[Pyromancer999]

Edit:


I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. If you intend to take level in intiating class why do you need martial dabbler level ?

The way I see it is that this class would allow for people to at least test out if they liked to use maneuvers and such, after which they would go ahead and enter an initiating class.

With the class feature progression, it might be a little too much.

See the edit to my first post on this. Yeah.

[bindin garoth]

The limit is removedn it's indicated with the bonus martial study feat.

Opps, missed over that.

[gkathellar]

Well, you'd take the 5th level for a drastic increase in your IL.

If you were looking for a gish build you'd take it to 5, sure, but as is 4 levels of the class cost you almost nothing (some skill points, w/ever) and give you some cool stuff on the side.

I feel like maybe the correct solution is to grant class improvements at levels 1, 3 and 5, while giving the Martial Dabbler itself more robust initiation powers. That would reduce the "OMG take this PrC" value, and increase the "I get to be a mini-initiator while keeping some of my regular progression" value that seems to be intended. It would also gives players a better impetus to take all 5 levels, since the obvious break points come earlier down the road, with less bang for your buck.

Of course, druids would still profit way too much, but it's not like you're really making them any worse than they already are.

[zagan]

The way I see it is that this class would allow for people to at least test out if they liked to use maneuvers and such, after which they would go ahead and enter an initiating class.

Ah I see, what you mean. The possibility didn't really occur to me because when I planned a character it's for all 20 level, with feat and nearly all skills points.

See the edit to my first post on this. Yeah.

That's an original idea. Can I have a link to your necrotic disciple to see how you word it ?

If you were looking for a gish build you'd take it to 5, sure, but as is 4 levels of the class cost you almost nothing (some skill points, w/ever) and give you some cool stuff on the side.

I feel like maybe the correct solution is to grant class improvements at levels 1, 3 and 5, while giving the Martial Dabbler itself more robust initiation powers. That would reduce the "OMG take this PrC" value, and increase the "I get to be a mini-initiator while keeping some of my regular progression" value that seems to be intended. It would also gives players a better impetus to take all 5 levels, since the obvious break points come earlier down the road, with less bang for your buck.

Of course, druids would still profit way too much, but it's not like you're really making them any worse than they already are.

Two lost level but at 2 and 4, perhaps. What do you mean by "more robust initiation powers." ? Simply more maneuvers and stances ?

[Pyromancer999]

That's an original idea. Can I have a link to your necrotic disciple to see how you word it ?

Sure. Still, it doesn't explicitly state the caster thing, so I'd include this clause:

"In the case of advancing spellcasting, manifesting, and the like, this class feature only increases the effective caster/manifester level for that class, and does not grant other spellcasting benefits that come with an increased level in that class, such as spells/powers known and more spell slots/power points(ex. a Sorcerer 7/Martial Dabbler 3 has the spells known and spell slots of a 7th level Sorcerer, but has a caster level of 10)."

[zagan]

Sure. Still, it doesn't explicitly state the caster thing, so I'd include this clause:

"In the case of advancing spellcasting, manifesting, and the like, this class feature only increases the effective caster/manifester level for that class, and does not grant other spellcasting benefits that come with an increased level in that class, such as spells/powers known and more spell slots/power points(ex. a Sorcerer 7/Martial Dabbler 3 has the spells known and spell slots of a 7th level Sorcerer, but has a caster level of 10)."

Hum not bad, not sure it's what I want but thanks it has given me a few ideas.

EDIT: I've made a number of change, do you think it's better now ?

[NeoSeraphi]

As of yet, you offer nothing to a fighter who wants to take this class (He has no class features to progress). My suggestion? Don't give bonus feats, as that would just completely replace the fighter, but give an option to continue progressing the fighter chassis (D10 HD, full BAB) while you are in this class.

Also, you made a copy pasta error in the class features section (Unless this class somehow changed its name from "martial dabbler" to "evolutionist" halfway through)

[Pyromancer999]

As of yet, you offer nothing to a fighter who wants to take this class (He has no class features to progress). My suggestion? Don't give bonus feats, as that would just completely replace the fighter, but give an option to continue progressing the fighter chassis (D10 HD, full BAB) while you are in this class.

Well, technically, the bonus feats of a fighter count as a class feature.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, technically, the bonus feats of a fighter count as a class feature.

Right but if you replaced the bonus feats, that would replace the entire class, so you would lose nothing for taking this class other than +2 BAB and about 10 hit points.

[zagan]

As of yet, you offer nothing to a fighter who wants to take this class (He has no class features to progress). My suggestion? Don't give bonus feats, as that would just completely replace the fighter, but give an option to continue progressing the fighter chassis (D10 HD, full BAB) while you are in this class.

I see what you mean but I'm note sure how to word it, because while you can use d10 instead of d8 easily enough for the level that progress, you can't really have 3 levels of full bab and two of 3/4 bab. Perhaps instead a +1 to attack rolls, +1 hit point at each of those level and those three level count as fighter level to qulify for fighter feats ?

Also, you made a copy pasta error in the class features section (Unless this class somehow changed its name from "martial dabbler" to "evolutionist" halfway through)

Damnit I was sure that Ihad replaced every evolutionist mention. Thanks for the catch.

[NeoSeraphi]

I see what you mean but I'm note sure how to word it, because while you can use d10 instead of d8 easily enough for the level that progress, you can't really have 3 levels of full bab and two of 3/4 bab. Perhaps instead a +1 to attack rolls, +1 hit point at each of those level and those three level count as fighter level to qulify for fighter feats ?

It's simple. Write:

Fighter Levels- Rather than the typical 3 level progression, selecting fighter levels changes the BAB of this class to be equal to its class level, and the d8 hit dice of this class becomes d10. The 1st, 3rd, and 5th levels of this class are treated as fighter levels for the purpose of feat prerequisites.

Damnit I was sure that Ihad replaced every evolutionist mention. Thanks for the catch.

No problem.

[zagan]

It's simple. Write:

Fighter Levels- Rather than the typical 3 level progression, selecting fighter levels changes the BAB of this class to be equal to its class level, and the d8 hit dice of this class becomes d10. The 1st, 3rd, and 5th levels of this class are treated as fighter levels for the purpose of feat prerequisites.

Okay, no that complicate. I'll use something like that then. Thanks again.

[Qwertystop]

You'd be a few levels behind in bonus feats though. Taking 5 levels in this would give you the same amount of Fighter Bonus Feats as taking 3 levels in Fighter.

[zagan]

You'd be a few levels behind in bonus feats though. Taking 5 levels in this would give you the same amount of Fighter Bonus Feats as taking 3 levels in Fighter.

You misunderstood, your martial dabbler level do not grant any fighter bonus feat, they grant full bab, d10 HD and you gain a +3 bonus to fighter level to qualify for feat. But you do not gain the bonus feat.