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Thread: Aragorn's character sheet.
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2011-01-13, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Aragorn's character sheet.
From another thread, we were discussing how high level Aragorn needed to be to be effectively modelled by DND. This sparked the discussion.
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creati...librating.html
Take Aragorn, for example. He’s clearly described as one of the best warriors in Middle Earth. But what do we actually see him do? Let’s take THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RINGS as an example:
He leads the hobbits through the wilderness with great skill. (The highest Survival DC in the core rules is DC 15. A 1st level character can master the skill for non-tracking purposes. Aragorn, as a master tracker, would need to be 5th level, have at least one level of ranger, and have spent one of his feats on Skill Focus (Survival) to achieve all of this.)
He drives off the ringwraiths at Weathertop. (It’s difficult to conclude anything from this because it’s one of the more problematic passages in the book when subjected to analysis. If the ringwraiths are truly impervious to harm from any mortal man, why are they scared off by a guy waving two “flaming brands of wood”? Are they vulnerable to fire in a way that they’re not vulnerable to mortal weapons? The point is, the true strength of the ringwraiths is obscure, so it’s impossible to know how tough Aragorn would need to be in order to accomplish this.)
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Aragorn treats Frodo’s wound, unsuccessfully. (The highest Heal DC is 15. As with Survival, Aragorn could have mastered this skill at 1st level.
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In Moria (fighting orcs): “Legolas shot two through the throat. Gimli hewed the legs from under another that had sprung up on Balin's tomb. Boromir and Aragorn slew many. When thirteen had fallen the rest fled shrieking, leaving the defenders unharmed, except for Sam who had a scratch along the scalp. A quick duck had saved him; and he had felled his orc: a sturdy thrust with his Barrow-blade. A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it. (Aragorn slays no more than six or seven CR 1/2 orcs in this encounter. A trivial accomplishment for a 5th level character.)
Even if you follow Aragorn all the way through The Two Towers and The Return of the King, you’ll find that this is fairly representative of what he accomplishes. The only other notable ping on the radar is his ability to use athelas, and even if we don’t assume that’s merely an example of him knowing athelas’ properties (with a Knowledge (nature) check), it’s still just one ability.
So what can we conclude form this? Aragorn is about 5th level.
Lets not be ludicrous eh ? "the sweet grass of Rohan" = "Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns," ... it's nothing like deep snow or mud. Sure, the grass is blackened, but that doesn't make footprints on the ground magically sink in deeper, or be more noticeable; if anything, it would make finding tracks harder since any impressions in the grass made the hobbit are clearly obliterated by the passage of the Uruks (which is why he loses the trail later, when the DC goes up as a result). Pippin's tracks weren't even in the blackened slot in the grass, they were off to the side.
LIt was not long before Aragorn found fresh signs. At one point, near the bank of the Entwash,
he came upon footprints: hobbit-prints, but too light for much to be made of them.
The glass is blackened because the Uroks stepped on it. It died when they walked on it. And he failed numerous other checks on lesser surfaces while not running. It's pretty clearly argued that his skill level isn't immensely high. You can be an amazing hero, and not be high level. He failed repeatedly at checks, even here.
the sweet
grass of Rohan had been bruised and blackened as they passed.
They evidently went a slightly different way to the orcs, because their tracks weren't comingled with the orcs. Which was why he could find them.
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
I think they're kinda low level. Look at the wealth-by-level guidelines. The halflings between them have a mithril chain shirt and a +1 shortsword, and all this Aragorn dude has is some heirloom magic ring and a bunch of masterwork elvish stuff. And their wizard doesn't have many spells.
They got more stuff from the wood elves, but I think they leveled up there.
Last edited by gbprime; 2011-01-13 at 04:22 PM.
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2011-01-13, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Aragorn is about a 5th level character.
But as most of the world is 0th level and 1st level that is quite high.
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2011-01-13, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Honestly, and this is of course only my opinion, but DnD really fails at modeling characters not specifically written to be modeled by DnD. Levels, hit points, skill points and all the associated baggage of DnD maps poorly to literary exploits.
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2011-01-13, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Aragorn treats Frodo’s wound, unsuccessfully. (The highest Heal DC is 15. As with Survival, Aragorn could have mastered this skill at 1st level.
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2011-01-13, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
He probably has some LA. Dunedain are described as being generally better than normal humans in pretty much every meaningful way. That would be at least +1, and maybe +2 LA. I would guess a racial stat mod of +2 in every stat except perhaps wisdom, with maybe some +4s.
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2011-01-13, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
I agree.
After all, LotR as an example is a very poorly written adventure by D&D standards.
Lets see...low level group fights a billion goblins in Moria, plus the 10 CR cave troll and the 100 CR Balrock.....not too balanced there. Then the 100,000 orcs and such at Helm's Deep and the billion or so at the final battle.
Take Aragorn, he fights 1 CR or less orcs, goblins and such...that's it. He never gets to be the hero....does he fight and slay any BBEG?
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2011-01-13, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-01-13, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Last edited by Jjeinn-tae; 2011-01-13 at 04:45 PM.
Game systems I play: DnD 3.5, Pathfinder, Star Wars Saga, Vampire: The Masquerade, Dungeons: The Dragoning, AFBME, Atomic Highway, Dark Heresy, Legend of the 5 Rings 4E, MAID and... EQRPG... Does anyone actually play that?
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2011-01-13, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Aragorn is a ranger2/paladin14.
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Game systems I play: DnD 3.5, Pathfinder, Star Wars Saga, Vampire: The Masquerade, Dungeons: The Dragoning, AFBME, Atomic Highway, Dark Heresy, Legend of the 5 Rings 4E, MAID and... EQRPG... Does anyone actually play that?
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2011-01-13, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Last edited by gbprime; 2011-01-13 at 04:54 PM.
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
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2011-01-13, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Frankly it's pretty obvious that LotR was an E6 world, except for the Maia and Ainur. The only Epic person is probably Illuvitar.
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2011-01-13, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
I'm not going to copy much from that discussion, but I'll grab a little.
The article claiming that Aaragorn is 5th level is more than a little disingenuous. It focuses on things that make it's case look good and ignores/handwaves anything that doesn't. It uses circular reasoning in places (making the assumption of a low level world to prove it's a low level world).
One of the feats from the LOTR that stands out to me that is totally glossed over in that article: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli following after the uruk's who have captured Pipin and Merry. The run for 3+ days straight with virtually no rest, including running through the night. The running, in and of itself, is quite a feat, and is not something that a 5th level character can do. I'm not even sure a 100th level character can do it, since the non-lethal damage taken while hustling doubles each hour, and there's no save.
The following passage in highlights Aragorn's use of tracking while on the run.Originally Posted by The two towers
the DC might be 1 less (they might not be a full 2 days behind at that point)
"the sweet grass of Rohan" = "Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like)" which is a base DC of 15 ... it's nothing like deep snow or mud (base DC 5). Sure, the grass is blackened, but that doesn't make footprints on the ground magically sink in deeper, or be more noticeable; if anything, it would make finding tracks harder since any impressions in the grass made the hobbit are clearly obliterated by the passage of the Uruks (which is why he loses the trail later, when the DC goes up as a result of being trampled).
You could make the argument that the ground there may have been softer than normal, and that it was a DC 13 check with a -20 modifier, but I find that kind of far fetched.
If you assume that he rolled a 20 on that check, he still had to have a +18 to make the check to see Pippin's tracks;that sets a minimum level significantly above level 5.Last edited by Jayabalard; 2011-01-13 at 05:17 PM.
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2011-01-13, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
The Alexandrian article is ridiculous. It contradict itself in many places (a badass character has an elite array, but an exceptional blacksmith has 18 intelligence), it makes wrong assumptions, it forgets how pathetically weak level 1 characters are not just at adventuring, but simply doing their job, and at the same time it overestimates the awesomeness of characters at levels 10+ (casters do get awesome, non-casters, not really). And that's just off the top of my head. Somewhere on this forum is a more in-depth analysis of this article, but it's old and I can't be bothered to look it up by now.
This, except I'd say that it fails at modeling characters from its own books too. Exhibit 1: Drizzt. Exhibit 2: Elminster.
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
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2011-01-13, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
[QUOTE=Gamer Girl;10154379]I agree.
After all, LotR as an example is a very poorly written adventure by D&D standards.
Lets see...low level group fights a billion goblins in Moria, plus the 10 CR cave troll and the 100 CR Balrock.....not too balanced there. Then the 100,000 orcs and such at Helm's Deep and the billion or so at the final battle.
Take Aragorn, he fights 1 CR or less orcs, goblins and such...that's it. He never gets to be the hero....does he fight and slay any BBEG?
Edit.
You could make the argument that the ground there may have been softer than normal, and that it was a DC 13 check with a -20 modifier, but I find that kind of far fetched.
If you assume that he rolled a 20 on that check, he still had to have a +18 to make the check to see Pippin's tracks; that sets a minimum level significantly above level 5.Last edited by Ytaker; 2011-01-13 at 05:20 PM.
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2011-01-13, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Correct by the rules an extraordinary person is about 5th level. 11+th level is legendary. Most mundane characters you see in literature and movies are about 5th level and only those that seem to break the laws of physics (even when they are non-magical characters) are higher.
I might put LotR characters around 7th level as they do take down huge numbers of foes. I mean fighting 6 at once is CR 5 and 10 at once is CR 7. And because characters like the nameless (in the movie not the books I'm sure) elf captain who also takes down quite a few foes should be around 5th level. Still in the same ballpark.Last edited by ericgrau; 2011-01-13 at 05:21 PM.
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2011-01-13, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
I know that was missing something. So, it sounds like any build of Aragorn requires an 18 wisdom and skill focus: survival; it may also rule out builds that include many paladin levels.
A D&D troll is; a LOTR troll bears no resemblance to that.Last edited by Jayabalard; 2011-01-13 at 05:29 PM.
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2011-01-13, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Don't forget that, as a ranger he can also take favored enemies: Halflings and by level 5 get another +4 to track them, and a +4 competence item costs only 1600 according to the SRD, wich is well within the limits for a lvl 5 character.
And with the Self-sufficient feat it's another +2.Last edited by drakir_nosslin; 2011-01-13 at 05:18 PM.
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2011-01-13, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Lets not be silly; Aragorn would not have favored enemy hobbit (we're talking lotr, you can call them hobbits again); and the world of LOTR is sufficiently low magic enough to discount the possibility of a magic item for a competence bonus to survival.
Not at all, lawns are explicitly called out as DC 15. Lawns have grass. Having grass does not make the check any easier.
The grass is blackened because of the passage of many orcs (something similar happens all the time on the local college campus, where the students make their own paths); it's simply trampled down. This does not help him spot Pippins print in any way.
he "was pierced by many arrows" ... not just a single hit.Last edited by Jayabalard; 2011-01-13 at 05:27 PM.
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2011-01-13, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Firm Ground
Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints.
for he had seen footprints that went that way, branching off from the others, the
marks of small unshod feet.
It's long grass as Aragorn sang around p 4.
Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
The West Wind comes walking, and about the walls it goes.
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
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2011-01-13, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
Which elf are you talking about, out of curiosity? I'm trying to think of an elf captain in the films and am only coming up with Haldir (who had a name in the films, but wasn't present at Helm's Deep in the book). I think his name was only said in the films a couple of times, and it might not have been really obvious, which could explain why it was overlooked.
Defeating the foe at the cost of your own life is a recurring theme in Tolkien. All three listed Balrog fights as well as the defeat of Sauron at the hands of Elendil and Gil-galad.
I think it's less of a "similar strengths" matter and more of a case of Good can overcome Evil, but at a cost - with the added implication that the cost is worth paying.
In the movie they tried to fix that by having him fight Sauron. Then they realized the book fans would be a bit annoyed and they replaced the CGI with a troll.
LotR operates on things closer to Narrative Causality than Game Mechanics.Last edited by WalkingTarget; 2011-01-13 at 07:00 PM.
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Re: Aragorn's character sheet.
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