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Thread: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
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2011-05-05, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
When have I ever said it does? In fact, I have repeatedly and vocally stated that the BMI is an inferior estimate of physical health to the Hip-to-Waist Ratio (which is itself inferior to other methods, I'm sure, but easier for the average person to do at home).
Maybe Cycoris' comment about how "just because (she's) tall and have very little fat and tiny tiny bones means (she) can't be sexy" (which, by the way, I think is pretty erroneous and certainly not reflected in popular culture) was directly related to BMI, but it's not necessarily so and Frozen Feet appears to have considered it seperate.The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
I think maybe we're committing a fallacy here. We're talking about being 'sexy' as if it's some absolute. Luckily human preferences are not so so focused. There's a spectrum of preferences in the various dimensions of body type, hair color, personality, etc. Most humans also have advanced filters for less attractive traits, especially if it's late at night (early in the morning) and you've had had a few beers.
So yes cycoris, you can still be sexy if you are thin and have a small skeleton - but not to everyone. And hopefully - mutatis mutandis - the same goes for me.Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
You can (and scientists have) still come up with a general ideal bodyshape for aesthetics, health, and fertility based on population-wide preferences, though...
I am overweight. I have an increased risk of diabetes, heart disease, liver problems, kidney problems, possibly slightly lower fertility (I don't think I'm quite overweight enough for that to be a big problem...), and other health issues, and I am less attractive to the average man* than if I were healthy weight.
Some people are underweight. They have an increased risk of low blood pressure, anaemia, osteoperosis, weakened immune system, and fertility problems, and may be less attractive to the average person* than if they were a healthy weight.
It's biology *shrug*
*I don't think they did this test with homo/bisexuals... Wonder if it's differentLast edited by Serpentine; 2011-05-05 at 07:13 AM.
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2011-05-05, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
If I take the average frequencies of the ten most popular songs in the world, take the average of that and then present it to the world, I guarantee you it will sound like crap.
Same here. Beware of population aggregates. They are not always your friend. And even if so, that's where our filtering systems cut in.Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
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2011-05-05, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Here, just read this and follow the sources.
Outliers do not always render the data as a whole meaningless.Last edited by Serpentine; 2011-05-05 at 07:15 AM.
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2011-05-05, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
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2011-05-05, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Heliomance, you look nice.
Frozen_Feet, the problem with underweight=unhealthy, normal=healthy, and overweight=unhealthy is that it's very often flat out not true. While BMI can be said to represent a trend in a very large group of people, even that has some pretty significant criticisms, including the fact that "overweight" people tend to live longer (source). BMI also doesn't take into account any kind of variation in lifestyle or body type, many don't even have age as a variable. Especially when it comes to determining whether an individual is healthy or not, I'd say BMI is a very, very loose indicator at best. And some of what we've been taught is "healthy" or "unhealthy" may not be quite so much.
Now, as for a little rant, partially in response to Thufir:
I substituted "sexy" for "healthy" because both are applicable. I think we're led to believe that the two are interchangeable, things that look good are good, and vice versa. On top of this, our ideas of what's healthy and good are very often flawed, be it through ignorance or deliberate misinformation.
But there's also a very strong idea that anybody who isn't healthy (often as defined by society, regardless of whether/how it impacts that person's well-being) is not and cannot be sexy, sexual, or have sex.
For instance, as shown in the last few pages, anyone who is perceived to be or have been anorexic is seen as undesirable, reinforcing the idea that people have a duty or responsibility to adhere to some external standard of health and well-being, and that being unhealthy in any way is terrible not so much for the person whose health is being impacted, but for the people exposed to them.
And to tie it back in with what the thread's ostensibly about (you know, other than my butt, though thanks! )...
I think the whole "external standards of health and well-being" thing has a huge impact on how people who are trans are perceived, and the level/types of medical/psych care available, due to the prevalence of the idea that there is an external standard of health (which almost certainly includes being cis, or having the "right" combination or arrangement of parts), rather than focussing on the needs and feelings of each individual.
EDIT: To clarify, my comment about being tall and bony was both facetious and directly a comment on the BMI.
And to Serps (again!), why do people have a moral obligation to be healthy? Especially when it's "healthy as defined by current society/popular thought", but also just in general. Why do you think it's wrong or undesirable for someone to decide that rebellion or being comfortable or convenience/affordability or even simply not caring is more important to them than some facet of their health?Last edited by cycoris; 2011-05-05 at 08:16 AM.
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2011-05-05, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
But the fact is, health and aesthetics are demonstrably tied together on a biological level. Yes, an overweight person can be sexy. But they're not likely (likely) to be either as sexy (to most people) or as healthy as if they were a healthy weight. The target should be health, not the opinions of others, but they are generally likely to coincide.
And, again, I am not a fan of the BMI, and believe the HtW ratio to be much more reliable and useful for individuals.
"Be happy with yourself" and similar sentiments are nice, but are dangerous when they encourage people to ignore their own health out of some desire to "rebel" against "society's standards of beauty" or somesuch. Surely "loving your body" includes looking after it?Last edited by Serpentine; 2011-05-05 at 07:52 AM.
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2011-05-05, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
In my world, morals don't enter into this at all. Health is a purely practical issue.
There are a whole bunch of advantages to a healthy mate:
- lives longer and can thus be enjoyed for a longer time.
- can carry hirs own weight (no pun intended) in the practical parts of a relationship.
- is less sick/tired/depressed/whatever and requires less tending to.
- and the classic: stronger offspring.
Add to this that we have a pretty strong instinctive reaction to unhealthiness, something that probably ties back into a primal fear of disease, death and other infectious and harmful things.
I can't get worked up over it. But then again, maybe this is just my own elaborate excuse to keep my own extra kilosSpoiler
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2011-05-05, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Well, I could point to the social costs of paying for medical proceedures that wouldn't be necessary if people looked after themselves, and to the emotional costs on friends and family who have to live with unhealthy loved ones, and/or their avoidable deaths... But more to the point, I'm mostly talking about people giving this advice to others. If you would rather be unhealthy than spend money on luxuries like food (my mind, it is boggled), then that's your choice. But I will protest if you try to tell others that this is a good idea, or if you criticise others or suggest that they are shallow or judgemental or whatever for thinking it's a bad idea.
And it's not "healthy as defined by current society/popular thought" that I'm talking about, but "healthy as defined by current medical knowledge and, if in doubt, confirmed by a doctor".
If you really have to ask my why I think it's "wrong or undesirable" for someone to not care about their health... well, I don't think I can give you a satisfactory answer, as it is too self-evident to me for articulation.
If you are underweight, then you are probably unhealthy - or, rather, less healthy than if you were a healthy weight as defined by medical knowledge. This is a fact. Morality, and personal preferences, don't come into it.Last edited by Serpentine; 2011-05-05 at 08:57 AM.
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2011-05-05, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
I agree, but a couple of points.
The wikipedia link states that this varies by culture. 0.7 is for Indo-European cultures - other cultures show preferences from 0.6 to 0.9.
Many of the studies I've seen - and I've read a few - are based on a flawed statistical assumption, namely that Likert scales provide numerical data, not ordinal data. That is to say, when you ask someone to rate attractivenes on, say, a Visual Analogue Scale (a 10-cm line; put a mark on the line), a '50' is twice as much as a '25'. The statistical methods used absolutely require this to be true.
The problem is that this has never been proven, and in fact there are good reasons not to believe it. Swedish professor of statistics Elisabeth Svensson has, in fact, demonstrated that it is not true for self-reported pain.
Evolutionary psychology for humans has been under heavy fire. The problem is that we have no close relatives, and we don't know much about the environment in which humans have evolved. For example, tools have been a large part of that environment. We have the remains of stone tools - but we know little about wooden tools like the ones contemporary hunter/gatherers use. The social environment is another important factor, and we believe that that has been changing very rapidly over the last 100 000 years. Humans are excellent at telling stories, but just because we can tell a compelling story about a given result (0.7 is optimal fertility, for instance) that does not mean that the story is true. We've discussed this before, I know you don't agree, but that's where I'm coming from.
Does this mean that there is no relationship between appearance, attractiveness and e.g. fertility? No, I'm not saying that. But I think the methodological problems are formidable and I don't think the studies have demonstrated this.
That was a long answer.Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
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2011-05-05, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
(saw Helio)
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2011-05-05, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Hehe, thanks everyone. I may get hold of some makeup at some point soon. Even if I do only ever dress up in private.
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2011-05-05, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Just OOC - are you transvestite or transsexual?
You don't have to answer if you think this is illegitimate prying. I'm a nosy person.Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Last edited by Astrella; 2011-05-05 at 03:21 PM.
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Heliomance --
Nice.
You look like a Spanish countess.
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Watching a loved one die because they're too set in their ways to stop themselves from getting diabetes and killing themselves slowly is rather unpleasant, for one thing.
Don't chew on your lips, it's bad for them.
Anorexia being unattractive taps into very basic things in regards to mate selection for the purpose of reproduction, something that humans have not shaken completely free of, after all. So it kinda predates the current culture you're railing against... which actually encourages anorexia anyway...
Anorexics seem to be kind of a bad example anyway because they're trying to adhere to an external standard of beauty that only anorexics hold to(seemingly misinterpreting various cues from the rest of society), rather than it being a true internal standard of beauty or anything like that.
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2011-05-05, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
BMI is actually quite useful. If you really wanted to find out whether you were at an acceptable weight or not, you'd have to get your % body fat tested, how much weight is muscle, and account for any abnormalities with body shape. The thing is, most people don't have access to that. For most people, BMI is a relatively good indicator of whether you should lose or gain weight.
Just because it doesn't apply to every single person (which would be impossible for any system, I imagine), doesn't mean it's rubbish.
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2011-05-05, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
I actually thought I had remembered wrong about your gender until I saw this, so you most certainly don't look like a guy in girls' clothing.
Although that may mean you look less like a girl if Visual Key is anything to go by.
Now I'm scared that I could have anaemia.
I actually eat quite a lot of food in general, though, so I sincerely hope I am not unhealthy. Eating more hurt my stomach. ._.Treasured Quotes
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2011-05-05, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
And exactly because it doesn't factor in bodystructure is why I find being insulted by BMI odd. It is an obvioulsy incomplete measurement, incapable of being accurate without outside data. Abnormalities in BMI and implications of such are reasons to look further into given issue. Reacting strongly to incomplete data feels excessive.
I consider them separate exactly because BMI doesn't account for bodystructure, and bodystructure is only part of being healthy and sexy. Having tiny bones, little fat and being tall don't even tell a thing about BMI. (I should know, I qualify for each item and have normal BMI.) Likewise, there's a strong disconnect with sexiness there, as even with abnormal BMI you could still have, say, really pretty face. (Or conversely, normal BMI but horrible skin problems.)
I though I said as much. It's what lead to my original comment, in any case.
Everything seems to point out that this is natural mode of operation for human brain, not really something we're "led to". Rather, I believe cultural factors are more likely to lead us away from that, as witnessed by various very unhealthy qualities being perceived as "sexy" in the past.
Which I believe is connected to instinctive fear of disease people have. Which correlates with the biological fact that sick people often are less capable and willing of sex. I do agree cultural factors often sway this to wrong directions, though.
Actively self-destructive people are a burden. Even outside moral quandaries, this is a practical problem. Someone who is really, demonstrably ill often causes problems, and in my mind it's perfectly reasonable to demand people to take care of those facets of health they just can. Absurd demands from part of society are another can of worms entirely."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
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2011-05-05, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Maybe your teacher was saying that a big boned person would only realistically get about 3 additional kilos worth of bones, therefore it wasn't enough to justify a bigger weight difference than that?
I know BMI is flawed even used as a guideline, since it only uses height and weight. I guess using it in my post wasn't such a good idea, I assumed because it's a more commonly known index it would be easier to talk about it.
My point was that society idealise thinness to a point that I feel is unhealthy. I don't mean that every skinny person is unhealthy (they might be, they might not, better to check with a doctor since they have a higher chance to be than if they were of average weight). The fact that the "healthy" BMI range was lowered was just one example.
Really, I have a beef about it because of a friend I had who had an eating disorder. She was anorexic, and it was quite obvious. Well, she tried getting better, but as she started to gain a bit of weight to become healthier, she started getting comments about how she "was getting fat". When she was still underweight, and more than that, obviously underweight.
I'm sure you can imagine what kind of effect that had on someone who was already suffering for a skewed perception of her body and an eating disorder.
Basically, society was telling her "you look better when you're unhealthy. Don't try to get your health under control".
It's the main thing that makes me very passionate about the subject, but it's not the only one. I've known other similar things happening. People are used to considering the health problems that are more likely to occur with being overweight, but not those that are more likely to occur with being underweight. Because society has been showing thin people to us and saying "that's the norm", some people who are healthy make themselves unhealthy and get the approval of those around them. I hate that.
So my rant was really about that, and how it makes it hard for people who are underweight to get help getting healthier. A lot of people will brush off their problems, say they're lucky and it's a nice problem to have, or try and convince them to stay that way because they "look good".
I really wasn't commenting on the health of any particular person.
Oh, and @Frozen_feet, I think your teacher might have been a bit off-base with his argument. The bones themselves might not weigh much, but there needs to be flesh between them. Obviously, someone with a narrow waist, narrow hips, narrow shoulders, narrow chest cavity, etc, will need less pounds/kilos of flesh to "fill the frame" than someone who has a broad set of all of the above. So the weight difference isn't only about what the bones themselves weigh.
That's why the WHR is a better guide, because it takes into account the width of your hips (bones, so the width won't get below a certain point), and compares them to your waist (where the only bones are the spine, so the measure is a measure or your flesh).
It makes it more accurate both for underweight people (their hips don't get thinner past some point but their waist does, making their ratio "wrong") and for overweight people (they pack a lot of fat around the waist, which shouldn't be that wide since it doesn't have many bones at all, making their ratio "wrong")
Then again, the WHR isn't perfect either. If I remember correctly, one thing my friend struggled with when trying to get back to a healthy weight is that her WHR became "normal" (or even "overweight". I think it was "overweight" but I'm not sure) long before her health problems stopped.
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2011-05-05, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
I feel bad that I ever commented on Lady Gaga's weight!
I think you're morally obliged to try to keep yourself healthy if you've got people depending on you, whether financially, physically or emotionally. I think being willfully destructive is a pretty selfish behaviour, but a lot of destructive behaviours come from having real emotional or mental problems and the person needs help, which is completely understandable. But it's probably better for you to be happy at the weight you are than striving to hit a possibly poorly defined "perfect healthy weight", whether you're under or over the average, provided you're not so far in one direction that it causes health problems like fainting spells or trouble breathing or digestive problems.
I'm on the upper end of a healthy weight (although my weight fluctuates a lot, I'm probably close to the upper end of my cycle of weight gain-loss). Even when I'm at my slimmest and healthiest, I feel fat and ugly. I don't wear tank tops or ever show my legs. In a moment of mad self-confidence the other day I bought a pair of shorts, but I bought them a size too small by accident. I went back to exchange them, but the moment had passed so I just returned them and didn't replace them. I could stand to be fitter, but I'm not actually overweight, it's just that society tells me I don't look anything like I should, I'm a big wobbly fatty compared to the stick-thin ideal.
Then imagine I tie this back into feminism and from there into LGBT rights, probably something about if the society image of the "perfect" woman and the "perfect" man weren't super-skinny muscular tall tanned-but-Caucasian people, it would be easier for both cis- and trans- people to be accepted for looking like themselves. I'm going to go eat more chocolate to feel better about my weight. That works, right?
I genuinely thought you were an androgynous-looking girl and I was confused, because I remembered you as being an androgynous guy from stuff you'd said, and then I discounted my own memory as being wrong because you clearly were a girl!
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2011-05-05, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Go buy them again. Go, go, go!
The beauty ideal has always been the one most difficult to attain - the one only, or primarily, the "upper class" could reach. Being fat, being pale, being ridiculously decorated, etc.
I guess we're kinda privileged to live in a society where we could all get close-ish to the beauty ideal without starving (or worse) from it, but the point still stands that if it was common, it wouldn't be the ideal.
To me, that's a comforting thought.
Maybe I'm weird, but I figure that I either look absolutely fine and thus have nothing to worry about... or I look every bit as hideous as I fear, in which case I'll help some poor insecure girls feel better about themselvesSpoiler
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2011-05-05, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-05-05, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-05-05, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
Oh man, I have some stories there. I've had numerous people actively discourage me from working out because I'm the type of frame that gains weight from working out. And I've had people tell me how wonderful I looked when I got extremely sick and couldn't eat. For that matter, I've had people praise the fact that I have the discipline to not eat a lot - for the record, I have digestive issues that make eating regular meals practically impossible. So, I'm kind of skeptical about the whole "people prefer a healthy figure" thing.
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2011-05-05, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
I will openly and honestly admit, I prefer my people tiny and undermuscled. I don't find tall people as attractive (and IIRC height is correlated with health until you hit a certain point), I don't like people who are "sturdily built" or muscular, etc. etc.
Then again, I also don't like people thin. Tiny and modestly plump (not obese, but a little overweight) is about my ideal. As always, there are numerous exceptions to this general rule of attraction in my mind. Come to think of it, I've never dated anyone who came close to my physical ideal. Ever.
So. Going to france first thing tomorrow and not taking my computer. Going to be out of touch for like a week and a half, so if you have any last insults to hurl my way just at the moment better get them out of your system in the next 12 hours or so.
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2011-05-05, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
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2011-05-05, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
I don't know that I'll get the chance, but if I find myself in britain I'll find a way to let you know.
Hrrm... I should have thought of this before, but given the number of regime changes since the sixteenth century, a declaration that someone was an enemy of all France and that if they entered the nation they were to be flayed, drawn, quartered, and burned would not still be valid even if they could identify such a person, right?