Results 91 to 120 of 177
-
2011-11-22, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Location
- Chicago
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
-
2011-11-22, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- By a Park
- Gender
-
2011-11-22, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2011-11-22, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Hixson, TN
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
I would clarify the issue by saying that Tarquin does not lie at all, but he deceives almost constantly. The problem is, from Tarquin's point of view, it's not relevant that his truths serve the same function as most people's lies, as he doesn't really have any sense of right or wrong, or any concern for how his actions affect individuals, but he has a very strong code of ethics that he is loath to break. I don't know if that constitutes a code of honor so much as part of his adherence to order and procedure.
And while I did earlier say that Tarquin seems to be a loving father to Elan, it's hard to say how different that would be if he had raised him. Tarquin seems to respect the fact that Elan is a protagonist, but he doesn't really understand why Elan might object to his murdering of innocent people. Since Elan does everything he's supposed to do in the "right" way (that of a hero), Tarquin probably would have approved of him, and most of the conflict would have come from Elan's side. This is not to say that Tarquin's behavior is okay, but he probably would have spoiled Elan and scorned Nale more than he did. Just a theory.
-
2011-11-22, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Good point! Probably it suggests that Tarquin wasn't a very attentive father- he may have given Nale occasional advice on leveling, but largely left him to his own devices. It would fit with Nale's personality too, as most of Nale's actions so far speak to having major daddy issues- he craves respect and constantly needs to gratify his own ego, which could be evidence that he never got much respect from his father. Hell, this whole plot could be Nale's attempt to finally get some parental respect, albeit in a twisted, sure-to-fail way.
-
2011-11-22, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Virginia
- Gender
-
2011-11-22, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
-
2011-11-22, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Virginia
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Hit and run helicopter dad? I like it.
The great comparison here is Elans Mom right? She lets him pick an underpowered class and then tells him that the key to a rich and fulfilling life is cross-class skills. Be able to do a little bit of everything, even if you cant do it that well, even if it makes you basically useless. Better to be helpfull than usefull?
-
2011-11-22, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
-
2011-11-22, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- San Francisco
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
I'm trying hard because I think that Tarquin tries hard. The point is that he plays by a certain set of (extremely twisted) rules and sticks to them. Of course he intends to deceive, but he does it using Aes Sedai truths as opposed to blatant lies. I do not think, for example, that he would ever say something equivalent to "the sky is purple and has polka dots" (unless he wasn't referring to the atmosphere).
This. I pretty much agree with everything here. There's a chance that Tarquin getting to Elan at an early enough age would have caused Elan to never become good at all, but if we assume that Elan has some core personality of heroism, this would be exactly right.
I guess this shows Eugene being reasonable as opposed to disowning Roy or at least forcing him to pay his own way through fighter college. I would hazard a guess, however, that Eugene only paid after a great dealing of cajoling and/or threatening from Sarah Greenhilt.
-
2011-11-22, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
-
2011-11-22, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Obviously there is no universal agreement about the meaning of the word 'lie'. Like a canny politician, Tarquin seems to work on the assumption that his every word is being captured and may be used against him in future. Like them, he makes strenuous efforts to deceive his audience, while also making sure he can defend each statement if necessary.
Here's a thought: it doesn't really matter whether he's "lying" or not. The undisputed fact is, you'll never know exactly how he was misleading you until the truth unfolds before your eyes. So even if you have confidence that what he's saying is 100% true, it's still not safe to rely on it for informational purposes.
I agree with that speculation, but I want to quibble with the word "loving". I think Tarquin is a textbook narcissist, completely incapable of love. His interest in Elan is as an heir to him, as the person who's destined to conclude his (Tarquin's) epic story - and being a bard, also presumably going to tell future generations all about it and thereby cement his immortality. In other words, his interest is entirely self-centred.
So he doesn't so much "respect the fact that Elan is a protagonist" as demand it - his son could be no less, he needs someone of that stature to complete his story. I'm guessing that one of the reasons he was so disappointed in Nale was the latter's lack of interest in the "protagonist" role for himself."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
-
2011-11-23, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Virginia
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
I speculate that by now, Tarquin has figured out the Elan is going to make a very bad heir. He knows his son is none too bright, overly trusting, and cant make a good speech to save his life. I get the impression that Tarquin pulled Roy out of the gladiator pits to run the plan after he is gone. Makes more sense, Roy has already demonstrated that he sticks to his guns, doesn't give up, keeps his word, and is intelligent. His only disparaiging comment to Roy thus far was about trying to save the crowd from Thog (lack of ruthlessness, a quality that can be used against Roy) but thus far I would figure that Tarquin should see in Roy someone that can manage the business effectively, and in a way that would please Elan, since Elan is likely to kill the next Evil Dictator that replaces Tarquin too....
-
2011-11-23, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
- Location
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
You misunderstand. Its been made clear Tarquin doesn't expect to die of natural causes. He expects his son to return years later and (probably) kill him.
I doubt Tarquins problem with Nale is not being the one to kill him in the future though. Its probably more being the worst dark Prince ever and even worse at betrayal than starscream.
Like, I bet he'd have been proud of Nale if he had competently stabbed him in the throat.
-
2011-11-23, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
I sure wouldn't trust him for much.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
-
2011-11-23, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
I actually think Tarquin is more complicated that this. The Giant loves breaking stereotypes (e.g. Lawful Good paladin opposing a mostly good party). It's human nature to try to dehumanize people who do bad things and deny any virtues they may actually have, especially love for family. It's very natural; "Oh, he isn't really human if he was able to do that." Unfortunately, in the real world, it's really easy to see that human nature is, by nature, both good and evil, and that evil can come of things that are, on the surface, good. Some of the nastiest people around do things in order to keep their family on top of the social heap. It's generally not good for the people around them, and in places where we have redirected that instinct into more cooperative competition, society as a whole is better off, but that's still their motivation.
-
2011-11-23, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Virginia
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
-
2011-11-23, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
But "a villain who helps his family at the expense of everyone else" is hardly "breaking stereotypes". Isn't that a stereotype in itself? (Ah yes, here you go.)
I don't think Tarquin's feelings for Elan are particularly deep-rooted, nor would I buy the description "love" for them. (After all, Tarquin was quick enough to turn against Nale when provoked. The reason he hasn't acted against Elan is - exactly as he says it is - because he has no reason to. Give him a reason, and he'd betray Elan in a heartbeat.)
I agree that Tarquin is human, which is why I'm inclined to see his evil in terms of a human personality flaw. Let's try applying the test to Tarquin:
- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance - check.
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love - yep.
- Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people - I'd say so.
- Requires excessive admiration - OK, this one's debatable
- Has a very strong sense of entitlement - check.
- Is exploitative of others - well duh, that's the basis of his entire plan.
- Lacks empathy - definitely (see 783 again).
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her - OK, not really.
- Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes - absolutely.
You need to show at least five of these traits to be considered pathologically narcissistic, and Tarquin (by my count) passes that count by an unhealty margin."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
-
2011-11-24, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Virginia
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Your count is wrong. Tarquin doesnt upsell himself, in fact he Downsells himself. So there goes 1. Your example on 2 is also not correct, his preocupation is in 760 and his goal is to create a world where people do not need to fight. The fact that he is willing to throw big parties for the people and go talk to and hire two criminals shows he doesnt disassociate with "the lessers". And is exploitative of others well, depends on the others, because certainly not his friends, who he is SHARING POWER WITH.
Oh and on a note of Tarquin and friendships/relationships: reread Malaks words in Panel 3 Malack expects Tarquin to try to weasel NALE (doesnt know its Elan yet) out of his punishment. Closest friend Malak thinks Tarquin doesnt have the stomach to go through with killing his own son. Think about that for a second.
You have misdiagnosed Tarquin. He is Evil, but not above granting the world peace and stability so long as he gets to be top dog. Similar personality to The Brain from 'Pinky and the Brain', not Snowball (from the same show).
Heck, Ian Starshine exhibits more of these traits than Tarquin does, of course he hasnt had nearly enough appearances yet, so its best to hold out any definitive judgement.
-
2011-11-24, 03:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
-
2011-11-24, 05:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
That's called "blatantly lying." You know, that thing you claimed Tarquin doesn't do? His massive ego is evident.
Your example on 2 is also not correct, his preocupation is in 760 and his goal is to create a world where people do not need to fight.
[...]he doesnt disassociate with "the lessers".Last edited by Kish; 2011-11-24 at 09:24 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2011-11-24, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Psychologists don't all agree.
But, even if those two examples are wrong and the count is 6 instead of 8... that still qualifies for the disorder.
We seem to have gone off the point of the discussion - Tarquin is lawful evil, yes. He would prefer an orderly world where everyone is under his domination, as opposed to a disorderly world with everyone under his domination.
Do we have strong chaotic evil antagonists? Xykon strikes me as more neutral evil than chaotic.
-
2011-11-24, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Virginia
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Not different stories, just one reads the Codex through the concave lens, and the other through the convex lens, it happens. But if your wish is that we stop responding to each other directly, I can respect that wish. No need to flame out a thread that now could be getting analysis for Penelope/Orrin.
He's created an empire of ridiculous evil and repression for the purpose of living like a king for as long as he can. In one panel, he offered an excuse about no one having any reason to fight each other once they've moved past the entire concept of morality
And like I said, there is no difference in Evilness between "granting peace while living like a king" and "robbing from 'the rich' and giving back less than '40%' to 'the poor'" one is a giant Peace Tax, the other a giant Equality Tax. Same thing, still repressive you have just changed who gets repressed and for what reason. Paladins these fathers are not.
Hey, for a change of pace, anyone want to bring Julio Scoundrel into the equation? He did act as a father figure for Elan, and seriously changed Elans outlook and worldview.
-
2011-11-24, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2011-11-24, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Well, of course Tarquin isn't doing anything wrong if you only look at what he's doing after resolving not to see anything wrong.
And like I said, there is no difference in Evilness between "granting peace while living like a king" and "robbing from 'the rich' and giving back less than '40%' to 'the poor'"
Pick up your sense of morality from the door where you left it, and look at what Tarquin does, what life in the Empire of Blood is like.
He says he's doing something different than what he manifestly is doing? I'll let you in on a little secret: Tarquin lies constantly.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2011-11-24, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Virginia
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Reread the plan. Most of these folks actually end up in the empire os sweat, which by the looks of it is the least repressive of the three, since most people choose the eos voluntarily. It's a all 1 empire, after all.
Oh and ian starshines plan, which he taught to haley starshine IS apropriate in this forum/thread.Last edited by rbetieh; 2011-11-24 at 05:16 PM.
-
2011-11-24, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Gender
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Based on what evidence do you consider the EoS the least repressive of the three Empires? We've been shown, through the lens of Tarquin's narration, precisely one room in the EoS. That room is populated by a ruling caste just as decadent, in its own way, as the Empress of Blood, plus Tarquin's cohorts. It is not unreasonable to assume that these cohorts dictate policy in the EoS just as surely as he and Malack dictate policy in the EoB, or Miron and his colleague do in the EoT. Even if that assumption is not granted right off, we do know that this formation of Tarquin's party is not stable, that they change the pairings every few years. In that time, Tarquin would have noticed any wavering among his cohorts when he got to work with them.
"Most people" on the Western Continent have very little say in what happens to them. What Tarquin described wasn't a series of nice clean referenda whereby the people of the Western Continent decide who rules over them. What he described was power politics, a series of maneuvers by leaders that in at least three cases - the EoB, EoT, and EoS - the people had no role in choosing, and over whom the people have no influence when it comes to policy-making. His scheme is based on manipulation, deception, strict definition of options when it comes to making choices, and strict limitation on the number of people who can choose anything.
-
2011-11-24, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
You know, can we really call Elan's father disappointing? Disappointment implies one had positive expectations that were not met. Not once in the run of the comic were we meant to believe his dad was in any way a good guy. I say he met expectations.
-
2011-11-24, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS
Looking at the OP, it's clear that Doug is talking about fathers being disappointing to their children, not to readers.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
-
2011-11-24, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010