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Thread: Getting kicked out of the party
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2012-02-03, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Getting kicked out of the party
as a pretty longtime DM who has had his share of bad, good, average, crazy, awesome, crazy awesome, and just plain old disruptive players and DM's, id like to toss in my 5 cents, and possibly give the dm in question a bit of help.
normally when you start a campaign as a dm, you have a idea for a story where you would like the players to be in, nothing wrong with that, and many a great sessions have been created that way. however, with new(ish) players, and especially as a new DM, that wont happen. things will happen you cant predict, players will do things you didnt see comming, and sometimes the story itself just doesnt seem as workable as you tought in the start.
the important part in all of this is that the players not only decide what to do in the story, they ARE the story. if your story will only progress when the players meet a certain person, and they simply go a different way, thats a hint that they dont consider the current storyline too important. the best thiong to do imho is to just improvise and try to either adjust the story to captivate the interest of the players, or just create a new story on the fly. the players themselves have been the inspiration for some of my greatest stories without knowing it themselves.
imho, your fun as DM comes from challenging the players, both in encounters as in roleplay, and the fun for the players comes from overcomming the obstacles and getting a fitting reward, again, both in items as in a new piece of the story they themselves are part of. that last bit is important, your players NEED to be part of the story. even if 2 players are on a totally different plane for 10 sessions, i would STILL have them play all together, if for no other reason that they are your friends and its about having fun.
simply put, a Roleplay session is a gathering of friends, be it in your home or over the internet. and a DM simply has no right to tell anyone not to come, since a DM is, as a person in a game, equal to everyone else.
at the moment ooc stuff gets in the way of the game, hold the game for a bit for everyone until its worked out, and never let ooc stuff influence anything ic.
anyway, im starting to trail off. a suggestion id like to make for you as DM would be to inform the players about the setting a little when they make the characters, and ask them to put their character idea into 2-3 lines so you know what kinda chars you will be dealing with. dont be afraid to ask things like "player x has a paladin, so could you please not make a lich player y?" it will help make the party a whole.
once the party is complete, decide if they really need a DM npc, most of the time, the awnser will be no. now that doesnt mean you CANT make a dm npc, but if you do, keep him a little low profile so he doesnt steal the spotlight, and try not to make him a boss of any player until your a bit more experienced.
finally, i advise you to toss a LOT of small quests at the players, all different kinds of quests, and some small strange events too. things like "the furniture in a house all become animated suddenly" or "bandits have been kidnapping people with green eyes" get the interest of your players, and at the moment they themselves WANT to know more about it, create some more of your world, with several possibilities of why the things happen like they do. pick the best ones each time and youll get a great story, thats the players helped create.
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2012-02-03, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Out in The Sticks
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I was going to reply a bit more in depth... but by page 2 I realized it was not needful.
what is needful and I feel obligated to do is ask a question
that question being
"My dear fellow gamer, where are you? so that we may find you a decent game to play in."
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2012-02-03, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-02-03, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I completely agree.
If my friends did something I didn't like, I would be upset with them.
If the specific EVENT I didn't like was "disobeying my commands" then I'm still completely wrong, angry or not. And punishing them for their disobedience as if they were puppies I was trying to housebreak would make me even more wrong.
No disrespect intended. I do see where you're coming from. But I think saying that "the players are also wrong because the DM was upset too" is dangerously clinical and stripping out some very important facts.
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2012-02-04, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
Ahh thank you Sipex
Both parties involved made mistakes. Both need to admit this and move on.
The Op's etc staying back almost lead to the death of 2PC's and a NPC because the Op did not want to fight. If he cheered the Centaur on does not matter but there seems to be a disagreement on that.
The Dm having the Paladin break free was a misstep but one so 2players did not lose there characters 1who was to get major role playing in the next scenario.
The groups getting upset at each other in the case of the Paladin for a minor reason and the Op being a jerk to the Paladin just because he's a Paladin.
Also people stop being mean to Dm's players misrepresent so do Dm's.
Finally I think it is perfectly fair to give a player a time out. Either play the game like a big boy which does not mean riding the rails but respect or get off at conjunction junction.
You know tell them to go off and leave the group alone for some time. Now making the miss a complete session is a little extreme depending on session length.
My sessions run 6hours. So I'd probably only kick a player out for at max 2. and I've only ever had to kick out one player who just needed to go
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2012-02-04, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-05, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Getting kicked out of the party
Translation: People, please stop being mean to Dungeon Masters that Players misrepresent; and remember Dungeon Masters misrepresent players too.
The last part of the sentence seems to have been a quickly slapped on reference to alleviate him from people going "dur dur, DMs aren't perfect either" and really destroyed the sentence.
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2012-02-05, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-05, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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2012-02-06, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I cut out a lot of stuff that basically boils down to me trying get across that the plot is not the point. I say again for emphasis, the plot is not the point.
Also, there was some laughing at the idea of going behind someone's back by posting on a forum.
... Darnit, I could have fun with this. Instead, I'm going instead to be uncharacteristically nice and attempt to explain to you why the bolded portions are truly and deeply wrong.
I've run a game with thirteen players (two characters apiece, it was almost a platoon in there and it was awesome) and felt zero need to discipline anyone. Some folks on this forum have run larger games, and I'm fairly certain you'll find that none of them feel the need to discipline increasing with the size of the group. Know why? If the game's fun and the players want to be there, they'll cooperate and y'all can have fun playing. If it's not and they don't, they won't and you won't. If one-third of your small group (it is, kid, don't get excited about six players) doesn't like what you're doing with the game, maybe you ought to reconsider the story you're trying to tell. Pack it away, save it for another group, and look for a different story.
This is speaking as someone who has way more control over his subordinates' lives than most civilians could ever dream of (of the 'they go to prison on my word' level, it's rather frightening to think about, to say nothing of the fact that my actions pretty much whether or not my soldiers live or die if we get into kinetic festivities). You're doing pretty much exactly what you're not supposed to do. You cannot motivate with punishments. Punishments will get someone to adhere only to the standards enough to avoid punishment. That's the root of the joke "The beatings will continue until morale improves". You can't actually get much discipline out of a unit by abusing them. You can, however, get it by earning their respect, confidence, and admiration. This is not an easy task. Honest, it's not. You're not going to do it by being petty and domineering, though, which is exactly how you're behaving.
Now, a better method of achieving results is to take them to task directly. Training people is a lot like training dogs, y'see. You can't punish a dog by throwing it outside. All it knows is that it misses you and wants to be back inside, it doesn't really connect the isolation with what it did wrong. Same with people. The player's not going to connect your issues with his behavior because you kick him out of a game. Instead, talk to him after the session, hand out no OOC punishments, and tell him to knock it off. If he doesn't, he's not interested in playing and invite him to pick a vastly different character or simply not come back. You do need to be open to the possibility that what you're doing is too un-fun for the two problem children to outweigh the benefits of the fun for the good children, reconsider, and look for a happy medium. So what if the player doesn't bring up a problem with Sir Prick IC, but instead directly to you? If you're looking for the player to respond, you need to at least appear responsive. If you're an Iron Tower of Absolute Convictions, he's not going to see you as someone he can work with and - it looks like he's the passive aggressive type, if what you say is true - will snark the campaign to death.
>_<
God, I'd hate to play with you. Don't you realize that the players are playing because they want to, not because they have to?
And the two you suspended? Do they at least get an adventure of their own to make up for it, or are you that stuck on being able to control other people that you insist on punishing your so-called friends because they wouldn't ride the rails?
Or would you have put it a different way?
To the contrary, Tyndmyr is a quite decent chap. You should see the advice and help he doles out in the homebrew forums.
I, on the other hand, am decidedly unkind to strangers. Or people I know. Or anyone, really.
I gave them warnings before doing so, if you dont feel thats enough. Well, thats your opinion. I think the warnings I gave were plenty, and as they are not missing out on anything. I feel it as a small and fitting punishment for prolonging them game for the 3 others present that day.
That is to say I have explained them what it is they were doing that was gonna end up getting them in trouble and they ignored it. I say it again and they keep ignoring it. I do not kick people from the group instantly for such things, but I do think it is fitting that their characters take consequence for their IC and OOC actions.
Ugh, logic fail. One being wrong has nothing to do with the other being wrong. In this case, while the characters may or may not have been douchenoodlers (it's hard to tell, and frankly I don't care), the DM stepped over the line with nine-league boots. In this case, the DM overreached spectacularly because of assumed responsibility of command. You can't be in charge and act like a petty tyrant. It ends poorly.
I have strived to maintain a relatively civil tone through this, and I do apologize for any excesses of offense. Insults weren't my primary purpose for posting this. I take a dim view of DMs who confuse themselves for having any measure of power beyond that of the game itself.My latest homebrew: Majokko base class and Spellcaster Dilettante feats for D&D 3.5 and Races as Classes for PTU.
Currently Playing
Raiatari Eikibe - Ghostfoot's RHOD Righteous Resistance
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2012-02-06, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- London, UK & Austin, TX
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
Email him a link to this thread, and ask him what he thinks. [/Chaotic Neutral]
Oh wait, too late. :)Last edited by shockeroo; 2012-02-06 at 04:42 PM.
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2012-02-06, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I'm probably just echoing other people now but...
Nikolaz; it's not the DM's place to punish. As DM you're not superior to the players, just different. If they're doing something that's causing you problems and in danger of spoiling the game, you need to tell them what the problem is and ask them to change their behaviour accordingly. Exiling them is no good at all.
Re the paladin, NPCs leading the party even for 5 minutes is bad, for a whole game is horrid and for more than one game is a disaster - especially if it was supposed to be only for one game "before the players messed it up." It's a very common mistake so there's no shame in it, but you should really avoid that kind of thing - it spoils the game for the players. It's their fantasy - and if their fantasy was being pushed about like that then they'd get a crappy job with a small-minded boss, not play D&D.
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2012-02-06, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I'm just going to second the first half of this. If Tyndmyr, of all people, comes down hard on something you are doing, you might want to reevaluate those actions.
Which reminds me: OP, I'm going to reiterate yet again much of the advice from this thread. "Run. Run away, and never return."I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-02-07, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
There are 28 players in the D&D Arkansas Players Group.
http://community.wizards.com/arkansas
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2012-02-07, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I think you both may misunderstand but I'm not condoning the DM's actions by any means, I'm just stating that if the two players wish to resolve this issue civilly with their DM they'll need to give a little as well. They can't just say "Nope, you're the only one in the wrong because you did the worst of the two things, fix it." because, despite what we think, the DM won't respond well to that.
If they don't care about being civil or resolving this issue then this is moot.
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2012-02-07, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-07, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
My latest homebrew: Majokko base class and Spellcaster Dilettante feats for D&D 3.5 and Races as Classes for PTU.
Currently Playing
Raiatari Eikibe - Ghostfoot's RHOD Righteous Resistance
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2012-02-07, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Getting kicked out of the party
How about "You're the only one in the wrong because you are the only one who did anything wrong at all"? There are plenty of situations where all the blame lies on one person, this is one of them. Besides, bailing out and not coming back is the best resolution method anyways.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-02-08, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Getting kicked out of the party
Huh. Though, of course, I don't have a car, and I would doubt that there are any players in my town. I should still probably check, though.
Oh, yeah, he let us back in, but the rogue was at a friends house because he didn't get the memo, sadly.
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2012-02-08, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
That solves the immediate issue, but what about the bigger issues regarding the paladin and the DM's overall tin-god attitude?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-02-08, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-02-08, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
See - this is the sort of attitude which causes conflict.
DM doesn't mean 'Dad'; you don't set punishments for your players (or give them detention or 'time outs'). You don't dictate their behaviour in or out of character.
The DM describes the world and the NPCs in it, and how all that reacts to the actions of the PCs.
That's it.
It often means a bit of world creation and a lot of character creation, and quite often means you're doing the most preparation work for each gaming session. But that doesn't mean you're "in charge" - it just means you're the guy who's describing the world of the game (and you do that extra work because you want to, anyway!)
(that's not to say that players won't sometimes do annoying things - in or out of character - but your response should be to discuss any issues with your players as equals, not to lay punishments and decrees down like a parent or a teacher)
I think a lot of people see things like "The DM's decision is final" and think it applies to more than just rules interpretation...
That.
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2012-02-09, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
Unfortunately, Mr.DM, the bolded text, in my opinion, is merely you attempting to deflect responsibility from yourself. You seem to want to say 'Don't blame me, I just control the NPC, he controls you', while what you're really saying is 'I control you through this character I control'. And this is simply using your DM powers to punish the players for not conforming with your expectations for the game simply because you can.
It has been stated that you are a new DM. I can sympathize with you on this. I've got about 6 or so years of experience to my name, and I still have troubles wrangling players from time to time. That doesn't give you any right to mete out Iron-Fisted Punishment when your players goof off a little. And if you're having problems with 6 characters, well then cut the DMPC. The only reason I would even consider such a move is to add to a smaller group, and with most of the people I play with, I'd likely just go without anyway.
I'm not denying that the players in question acted rudely and/or immaturely. The thing is, that comes with wearing the DM hat. I'm also not denying that there may have been call for some intervention on your part. Sadly, you seriously overreacted on suspending players. For what was done, I would talk with the players to see their side of things before making any sort of judgement.
As for fixing the situation, I have a few ideas. However, you need to realize that your group will have lost a lot of faith over how you handled this. The first thing is to flat-out apologize to the wronged players for your actions. Second, remove the DMPC Paladin, if you have not already done so. The temptation to do things you shouldn't through him/her are too great. Third and last, give the two players xp credit for the sessions they were forced to skip. They've already lost out on the most worthwhile aspect of the session missed, which is the session itself. If anything, I would suggest giving them xp above and beyond what they should have received.
So yeah, man up, make amends, and you might still be able to salvage the game. From a DM who has made lots of mistakes before, I hope you can save the game. And remember, without players, you're just reading (likely) bad fanfiction to yourself.
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2012-02-09, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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2012-02-09, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-10, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
SpoilerI'll have a signature one day...
Thanks Mr. Saturn for the awesome Pokeatar
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2012-02-10, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-10, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I hate to put it so curtly, but Sipex is simply wrong. The DM was narcissistic and chose to respond to a conflict (which he himself was responsible for) in an infantile manner. He got upset in a situation where he had no right to be upset; he then displayed delusional paranoia by attempting to frame an innocent question in an open forum as some sort of betrayal. This does not automatically mean that the players now have to apologize for imagined slights.
The DM openly admits that his motives were to 'control' his players, which he repeatedly emphasizes as if to say that his desire for control is a justification for anything. The players should leave, and this would-be dictator should seek some family counseling immediately. In essence, the DM found that he had neither the intellect nor social graces required to manipulate people as he wished, and therefore saw fit to throw a tantrum.
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2012-02-10, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
I think you do have a point there, Lucid. Given that the dm just showed up to make his side known, then disappeared, tells me you're, at the least, on the right track. My last post was assuming that he was merely a bad dm, and genuinely interested in improving. Given what we're hearing, sounds like that's not the case.
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2012-02-10, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Getting kicked out of the party
As far as I can tell, Siptex wasn't talking about the DM's in game actions at all but rather being upset that a thread like this was posted. It's perfectly reasonable not to want have your dirty laundry aired in public - although I think it's an overreaction in this case, given the polite and rather discrete tone of the op.
That is where a player can acknowledge being wrong - saying he handled it sub-optimally by going about it like this. It probably could have been handled better and I hope the OP learns from it too, there are always new things to learn each time we deal with a situation. By admitting this flaw it's easier to then get the DM to admit his, which, as he let them join in this week he seems to mostly have done. It's hard to say whether he's internalised the advice, only time will tell with that, but at least he's taken the first step towards doing so.
Of course sometimes people refuse to compromise or understand why they were wrong - there's no dealing with some asshats.