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Here is a bit of a trouble-inducing question for you all, o knowledgeable souls of the playground! I have run into a bit of a problem, and I am looking to you for assistance.
Okay, so, imagine an epic scenario. People are going to ascend, become gods, etc, etc. Epic levels, growing powerful beyond belief, etc.
So, why would anyone want to ascend and become some lowly quasi-god in an arbitrary, faraway plane, when you can become a near-god-on-earth like being? That's right. Said character wants to become a Terrasque. Imagine finding such an enormous beast, knock it out (Hence causing it to fail its will save against the True Mind switch), cast alter self (perhaps with some DM allowed Manifest Psionic Alter self) to remain looking like a human for as long as you like, with all the EX-skills of a terrasque. For alternative fun, you can possibly coat your old body in quintessence, and swallow it whole. (or again, with DM's permission, a Spell-to-power Erudite that could cast Hoard gullet with Permanency and store it there)
So, the problem. 48 HD.
True mind switch can only be used on creatures with the same or lower HD as you have manifester levels... But getting all the way up to level 48 would be a rather... ardeous task, even by epic standards.
So the question is, what ways can be used to circumvent this? Are there any helpful ways that could temporarily increase your manifester level to a large enough degree that you could feasibly True Mind Switch a Terrasque at around level 30ish? Given that the duration is instantaneous, it would not be a problem if the ML drops down after the switch is complete, as long as it is as high as required during casting.
What do we have to work with? Cause, for instance, Wilder 28 can wildsurge for +8 ML, closing the gap significantly.
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Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
So, Mind Mage is 8/10 manifesting/spellcasting, Cerebremancer is 10/10 manifesting/spellcasting, and Soul Manifester is 10/10 manifesting/meldshaping. With the 1 level in Sorcerer and Incarnate, that brings you up to 26/30 manifesting (11/30 meldshaping and 14/30 spellcasting); Practiced Manifester brings that up to 30/30 ML.
Mind Mage has the special ability that it adds its entire level to manifesting 1/day (that is in addition to the ML boost from the +1 level of psionic class). That adds 10 to your ML, bringing you up to 40.
Soul Manifester lets you invest 2 essentia into a power to increase the ML and DC by 2.
Overchannel adds +3 ML.
So that's 45 there without items.
EDIT:
Now, having typed all that up... There is an epic feat in Complete Psionic called Improved Overchannel. It lets you add up to double your ML to a given power, but you take 2d8 damage for each increase. Just Reality Revision for a Delay Death and go nuts. It'll only be 36d8 on a Psion 30.
Alternatively, a STP Erudite using the Consumptive Field trick can get it up there.
Also, I think there might be a Taint-based psionic class in the Mind's Eye, and we all know how balanced that system is.
Seriously, do you have any idea what it costs to feed a Tarrasque? It eats a country per day!
Ring of sustenance? Semi-elemental plane of tasty burgers
Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_khaine
Unfortunately, a Miracle cant create a True Mind Swich.
Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
(...)
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved.
Imagine finding such an enormous beast, knock it out (Hence causing it to fail its will save against the True Mind switch)
Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.
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"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.
But in D&D unconscious = willing. I live my life by that rule.
Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.
SR is not a problem... you need ML 48 for this to work, so you can not fail check. On this levels your primary casting stat will be easily
15 (start) + 5 (leveling) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enchantment from item) = 31
so DC is at least 10 + 10 + 9 = 29. Not too good (you are targeting +20 will save) but you can lower that by debuffing it first.
But in D&D unconscious = willing. I live my life by that rule.
That doesn't mean what you think it means.
Some spells specify that they only work on willing targets (e.g. teleport). That doesn't mean that an unconscious target automatically fails all saving throws.
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"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
I fear your plan is flawed in multiple ways. Allow me to point out a few:
1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.
2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.
3. I'm sure you are aware how many people want to kill the tarrasque and as soon as some powerful wizard founds out about you some fighting is gonna go down.
4. Technically most(if not all) of its abilities should cease to function if you use alter self since things like the deflective carapace and the ability to swallow whole is tied directly to it's physical properties.
I fear your plan is flawed in multiple ways. Allow me to point out a few:
1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.
2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.
3. I'm sure you are aware how many people want to kill the tarrasque and as soon as some powerful wizard founds out about you some fighting is gonna go down.
4. Technically most(if not all) of its abilities should cease to function if you use alter self since things like the deflective carapace and the ability to swallow whole is tied directly to it's physical properties.
5. Being a lowly quasi god is much cooler.
Send my greetings to the tarrasque.
Nothing a Ring of Sustenance and a good Bluff check can't take care of. I'm fairly certain you don't lose your Ex abilities when you Alter Self.
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English is a second language etc etc.
Last edited by Shadowleaf : 03-10-2012 at 09:22 AM.
Hmm that is true. And no you don't lose them but logically you are supposed to and a DM might rule that way.
You could take an RP-ish approach and argue that you have "assimilated" the Tarrasque and therefore have figured out how to improve your Human form (with natural plating, boosted blood coagulation and an extra stomach sack for swallowing whole).
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English is a second language etc etc.
1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.
2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.
I think primordials controlling the tarrasque might be 4E-FR specific. With regards to your first point, if you're in a tarrasque body, I don't see why you couldn't just avoid going into hibernation with a Ring of Sustenance (if you even need that).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_redefined
It's easy to make something on fire in D&D. Put adventurers near it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kornilios
I guess it's better but Anthropomorphic bat sounds like Batman without his dignity
EDIT:
Now, having typed all that up... There is an epic feat in Complete Psionic called Improved Overchannel. It lets you add up to double your ML to a given power, but you take 2d8 damage for each increase. Just Reality Revision for a Delay Death and go nuts. It'll only be 36d8 on a Psion 30.
Why do you cause yourself so much trouble? ;)
Use Timeless body in the first round, then Improved Overchannel with your True Mind Switch. Damage? What Damage? ^^
Regards,
Thiramon
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Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe
that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.
Frank Herbert, Dune
English is not my native language - please pardon my lack of grammar and vocabulary.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
Miracle can do just about anything in theory - with deific (read:DM) approval. But if your DM is going to allow that he may as well let you research your own version of TMS with no HD restriction.
Miracle can do just about anything in theory - with deific (read:DM) approval. But if your DM is going to allow that he may as well let you research your own version of TMS with no HD restriction.
So you can use miracle to do this,but DM may ban it.That's not "you can't do it".
So you can use miracle to do this,but DM may ban it.That's not "you can't do it".
You can't. Your deity does all the work, and the DM controls him, not you. All Miracle lets you do is ask.
Quote:
You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
If your deity does not grant your request, Miracle does nothing, by RAW. It is not Wish.
Miracle has guidelines that govern its usage. It doesn't do "whatever". Guideline A can be accurately summarized as "no more powerful than an 8th level cleric spell". And True Mind Switch, being a 9th level psionic power, does not qualify. Guideline B is *INCREDIBLY* hard to adjudicate, but one thing's *definitely* for sure: there's no guarantee that the spell will actually do it(same with wish). I know some DMs simply ban Guideline B for simplicity's sake(tournaments especially).
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Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
(I see this as TO, so I don't worry about DM. Besides if DM doesn't want you to get big T's body [s]he has many more legit ways than "miracle doesn't work")
Well gods grants you every single cleric power, so you could argue "no, cleric can't do anything at all, diety (controlled by DM) does it".
Besides you can choose diety that will allow this. You can worship concept that is very much in line with that action.
And is about as powerful as examples given in Miracle description for XP-paying version.
If I recall correctly that is the highest CR creature in the ELH and the one that is capable of dealing the most damage. The only problem is you'll look like a freak but hey you wanted to look like a tarrasque.
Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.
Really simple solution:
Dominate it first, order it to not resist the next power you manifest on it, Mind Switch.
(If your DM rules this is 'against the Tarrasque's nature' or an obviously self-destructive order and thus won't be obeyed, well, you've still got a Dominated Tarrasque, so you can keep it docile and in one place while you rig the save in your favor.. hire a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard to stand on it or something, get a Bard to Doomspeak it, whatever.)
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True mind Switching a Terrasque
