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2012-05-08, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, arming caps don't cover the face -- they provide additional padding for the skull, plus help to keep the hair in place so that if it's longer than a crew cut, it doesn't flop into your eyes underneath the helmet where you can't get at it easily.
And, pulling off a helmet like that in the middle of a fight should be close to impossible. Those things were strapped on securely specifically so someone couldn't just lift it off and split your skull. I suppose you could wrestle it off by applying enough force to snap a heavy, buckled leather strap or two, but that would be extremely hard to do on an active opponent who was trying to kill you rather than standing there passively. And it might not work anyway -- leather is pretty tough.
So, I can only think that Tarquin left his helm unstrapped specifically for that reason. It doesn't explain why Roy would even try to pull it off, though, since he'd expect it to be strapped in place, and fumbling around futility on your foe's helmet would be a very good way to get your arm chopped off.Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2012-05-08, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Also Tarquin should be on the ground after being skewered by Roy's sword, Roy should have had a decent chance of snapping his neck when he fell down the stairs, Roy actually should still be dead, the pterado-owait, this is D&D-based. I don't think anyone is really expecting hyper-realism here.
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2012-05-08, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Not really. The "Batman: Under the Hood" comics came out in 2005. "Under the Hood" was the name Hollis Mason's fictitious biography in Alan Moore's "Watchmen", which pre-dates that by almost two decades. I'm sure there have been countless references to "Under the Hood" in superhero pulps through the years, and probably in older literature as well, so trying to pin down the exact first appearance of the phrase is probably a fool's errand, but rest assured it did not begin with Batman.
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2012-05-08, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
I think this arc isn't going to end well (like War and XPS arc).
Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
Apple Jack's parents
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2012-05-08, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
The first thing that came to my mind when I read the title was that I've learned not to expect anything from it.
And I was right. Too bad, it also ruined the joke for me
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2012-05-08, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by brionl; 2012-05-08 at 11:55 AM.
'F' is the fire that rains from the Sky
'U' for Uranium, BOMB!
'N' is for No Survivors...
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2012-05-08, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
The problem is some people cannot handle their idols being served a can of whop @ss... This defense of the Order in tearful rage is like hearing one of two kids arguing that "Sooooperman would beat up the Hulk ANY DAY!!!!". What gives?
(Besides, if they knew it was Tarquin, they have a potential hostage. Somebody - maybe the genre-savvy bard - could put a blade at the throat of Tarquin's son and demand that Tarquin surrender.)
plus such a dumb way to try and stop the fight would probably only make him more angry
Fight has not been ongoing for over an hour. Either the ring's power takes effect at a certain time (every hour on the hour, for example) instead of an hour after the wound was inflicted, or it heals much more rapidly than every hour. The second option seems more plausible.Last edited by Forikroder; 2012-05-08 at 12:05 PM.
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2012-05-08, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
"Under the Hood" refers to the stuff that's underneath the hood of a car, i.e. the engine, brakes, etc. The things that make it go zoom and/or stop. Lately it's been used in superhero comics to refer to what's under the mask, what makes the heroes "go". But it's still a reference back to the original usage.
'F' is the fire that rains from the Sky
'U' for Uranium, BOMB!
'N' is for No Survivors...
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2012-05-08, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Pretty sure OP was talking about this.
EDIT: Ninja'd!
Could be. I think FujinAkari probably has it right, though.
Tarquin has done alot of damage to the Order, the Order has done little damage to Tarquin, and Tarquin has healed almost all damage. That looks very much like Tarquin has shown he is winning.
Really? So with two lobbed vitriolic spheres, the order flying up and falling down, and Tarquin riding in on them and tassling a bit, you think it's possible a full hour has passed? Seriously?
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2012-05-08, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-05-08, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
I must say I did not enjoy this strip. It really doesn't go anywhere, and appears to exist only to deliver the rather lame (in my opinion) "Nope" joke, which again was only one of these willing suspension of disbelief shattering "Tarquin is even crazier prepared than Batman" moments.
I seriously begin to suspect the Giant is trying to shill Tarquin, and that never goes well with me."I'm particularly fond of our priesthood of the Benefactor, since our main duties seem to be sitting around and pretending that the Benefactor doesn't exist. When we're not stealing things, that is."
Locke Lamora, The Gentleman Bastard Sequence
The pun is mightier than the sword!
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2012-05-08, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Nale ordered the attack. The basic intent was to drive the Order further into the pyramid, rather than let them stand around talking for days and days.
Unfortunately, Roy suspects Vaarsuvius is still out there, and possibly in trouble. So rather than retreating into the pyramid(which is probably their best bet tactically), they've come out in hopes of rescuing their elf buddy.
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2012-05-08, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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2012-05-08, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Italy
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
I've been quite disappointed too. No plot progression, and lately it's proceeding very slowly, and a quite sad pun from Tarquin's side. I was really expecting something more Tarquinworthy, just to quote #54, maybe a surprise round for recognizing him and then the whole Linear Guild's charge. The mask? Not Tarquinish, really. Maybe he isn't really Tarquin, after all? Don't believe so.
Great Spot checks by Roy's side, btw. Appreciated the "lead with other leg" note.
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2012-05-08, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Really? So with two lobbed vitriolic spheres, the order flying up and falling down, and Tarquin riding in on them and tassling a bit, you think it's possible a full hour has passed? Seriously?
or malack has insane range on his healing spells and being uber sneaky
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2012-05-08, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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2012-05-08, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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2012-05-08, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
He was talking about how he doesn't leave without his Ring of Regeneration, and now he says he's regenerat(ion)ing, so that's where I'm basing my assessment from.
I was allowing for a loose interpretation of the ring of regeneration with my "1 HP per HD per hour" thing. Here's the actual text on the ring:
Regeneration: This white gold ring continually allows a living
wearer to heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than
every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal
damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5
minutes. If the wearer loses a limb, an organ, or any other body
part while wearing this ring, the ring regenerates it as the spell. In
either case, only damage taken while wearing the ring is regenerated.
Strong conjuration; CL 15th; Forge Ring, regenerate; Price
90,000 gp.
There are really two ways of interpreting this. The one I initially assumed when I read about the ring could be restated as something like "you regain 1 HP every 1/level hours" or something, so it's a slow process that takes a full hour to complete. After rereading it to understand what is happening in the comic though, that interpretation strikes me as kind of fiddly and difficult to adequately nail down in rules text format. Now I suspect it's something closer to "You gain a spell like ability to recover 1 HP/level which is usable as a free action. You must wait at least an hour between uses."
Then I guess there's always the possibility that it's something other than a standard ring of regeneration, but rather something that gives him a regeneration special ability like trolls get, which would be at the most Regeneration 1 because something like that seems farther into epic levels than even Xykon could handle. It could also be a Ring of Fast Healing 3 or something. The problem with either of those, though, is that he's only healing 1 to 3 HP per round, and it looks like he recovered quite a bit more than that. It seems more likely to me to be more like a "1 HP per level" healing thing that happens once an hour.
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2012-05-08, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think it has to be idolization. I mean, I like Roy, but in my (perhaps misguided) view, Roy is the hero. Moreover, this comes across as what I've felt like has been more, "The OotS cannot win any fight until the plot dictates it is so." Effectively, I empathize with the cast as an actual party in a D&D game, which they are somewhat modeled off.
I can actually really understand the frustration that the players would be feeling when they cannot accomplish much; it's felt like there was a shift ever since Roy came back from the dead, where the PCs are doing themselves no favors by trying to accomplish anything at all. As Elan's observation hammers home in the final panel, the clearest route to success is to patiently wait for the plot to carry them forward -- striving is just a shortcut to failure, as the entire thing about V's spell leading him to an annoyingly emo Heroic BSOD underscores (I wouldn't mind if it weren't so petty, but it's such a cheap way to remove him from the scene ... then again, considering how badly things were stacked against him last time, I don't really know how it was necessary to remove him from the picture this time -- but I digress).
So, while the OotS will ultimately 'succeed,' because that's the narrative, they can never really 'win' because that (evidently) is a dull narrative without any room for clever jokes. The unfortunate tradeoff is that in the perceptions of some, this comes across as turning the OotS into extensive buttmonkeys. The last Thog v. Roy fight really underscored this, IM(NS)HO; while it could be seen as a humorous deconstruction of 'intelligence isn't a useful stat for fighters' it also really undermines Roy's character and makes him a comedic failure (his planning (as always) all comes to naught). Especially since the 'turn-around' of 'Kno: Architecture' allowing Roy to win wasn't planned, it was as lucky as an unexpected crit (which would have accomplished the same thing).
As an example, again -- Roy manages to demonstrate his intelligence and ability to succeed, only to be thwarted again for the purposes of a gag. I'll note that this wouldn't be so grating if it weren't immediately on the heels of a gratuitous one-sided beatdown (followed by Thog, naturally, KOing himself, since Roy wasn't up to the task).
Anyway. It's okay if that narrative is fine by you, but I think you should try and respect people who feel differently. You don't need to attack other people to encourage and support a work you still appreciate. I actually wish I still could appreciate it as much as you evidently do....
Yeah, I've been enjoying the strip in general less and less as it feels like character accomplishment consistently takes a back seat to clever gags. Sometimes, as in the Thog v. Roy fight (as mentioned above) it actually turns something that should be at least mildly irritating into something wholly grating. For a time period, that strip made me stop reading the comic in disgust, only to return and read it out of Bile Fascination (how much more can our heroes be 'beaten' while ostensibly still being 'successful'?).
There's an age-old philosophy that authors and artists these days seem to ignore because 'darker and edgier is ez-mode cool'; that philosophy is 'the good guys win'. Now, challenges have their place, and having the party win without ever facing any significant obstacles is the domain of the Boring Invincible Hero (or Party, one supposes). At the same time, having the Order need to deal with a single character who is so far holding his own 1v5 (Haley, Roy, Durkon, Belkar, Elan), and has been shown to be a capable planner (thus, not likely to have miscalculated) while significant reinforcements lurk in the wings (most of the Linear Guild)....
My prediction is that (and this has been echoed by others in the thread) either infighting among the enemy, or Xhykon's (sorry about the spelling) unexpected arrival are going to be the only things that tip the balance in the favor of the Order. And I, for one, am tired of reading about the characters who are supposed to be the heroes all bumble around incompetently, a thought underscored by the fact that the least competent character is the one who has been beaten up the least (and accomplished the greatest margin of genuine success, post-resurrection).
I've just got ever dwindling interest in reading the story of the campaign where the NPCs accomplish everything, and the PCs are lucky to be along for the ride; I've played through that one a few times too many with awful GMs, so this unintentionally reminds me of those unpleasant games.
I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me; most of what I said is just opinion, and my take on things. I've never given feedback on this comic to the artist before, but my hope is that this comes through as constructive criticism and isn't simply torn to shreds by indignant fans who enjoy things as they are. Well, to each, their own, though as I've said ... these things make me enjoy the comic less and less every time they happen.
As has been said, enjoy if you can, tolerate if you won't. It's shifting to the latter for me with this comic these days. :\
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2012-05-08, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Quibble: There are only 600 rounds to an hour (10 per minute), so he only needs to explain 595 of them, not 6k.
But I agree, it has not been an hour or anything close to it, it doesn't really matter if the ring is a 2nd edition ring, houseruled, doing 1HP/HD once per hour and just did an entire hour's worth, or an epic ring of fast healing. Tarquin probably got back 20 or fewer HP and it gave him back much of what the OotS had done to him. They aren't seriously hurting him.
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2012-05-08, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
It's funny. The same "idol worship" can be applied to Tarquin, considering the posts that insist he's the most competent thing ever/Epic level/Neutral/deserves to win/etc.
Personally, I feel the heroes are going to lose this one, but I also think Tarquin's competence is intentionally getting built up by the comic only to come gloriously crashing down.
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2012-05-08, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Except that it was planned, for at least three rounds.
Note that Roy sees Zz'dtri being hauled away in chains, then runs to each of the three pillars in turn(okay, he crawls to the third one), and taunts Thog from in front of each of them. He is deliberately manipulating Thog into weakening the structural stability of the arena. It could be argued he had this idea in mind as soon as he landed in the stands, and that's why he shooed away all the spectators.
It's right up there with enticing the half-ogre with a spiked chain to fall off a cliff.
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2012-05-08, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
YMMV; Roy had the cliff plan from the beginning. The architecture thing was literally handed to him after Thog threw him through a wall. It really doesn't matter, ultimately; nothing you can say will make me feel it's anything more than a completely hollow victory that wasn't earned, and I sincerely doubt any argument I could make would change your viewpoint, either. Which is for the best, since that's not my goal.
I'm only trying to express my take on things, not argue that my view is the 'correct' one. It's just a difference in perspective.
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2012-05-08, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Well, it's not easy to find the right place between overly powerful heroes and overly challenging enemies, and that sometimes entails to make the heroes lose for a time, for the victory to feel rewarding in the end.
I just get the feeling that their current enemy does not "play fair", and I don't mean that by in-universe standards, but from a narrative perspective. It feels as if Tarquin has the author on his side, who occasionally supplies him with retroactive "preparation", which would be in no way believable for a realistic person, even if he is a well-prepared person such as Tarquin.
Writing a well-prepared character is difficult. Revealing too much of his preparation ruins the surprise, but revealing none of it makes him look as if he got everything served on a silver platter. I think the Giant had a point when he criticized his readers' tendencies to complain about everything that hasn't been explicitly foreshadowed, but I feel he stretched the leeway one should give there too far now, because we're easily reaching the levels of Batman's convenient shark-repellant spray here.
And even Batman's ridiculous foresight was mainly played for laughs. I would expect OotS to lampshade something like that pretty extensively, too, but apparently not. This is what lead to my suspicion that the Giant wants to make Tarquin look awesome at all costs, and can't even afford to let him be the butt of a joke in the meantime.Last edited by Valyrian; 2012-05-08 at 01:21 PM.
"I'm particularly fond of our priesthood of the Benefactor, since our main duties seem to be sitting around and pretending that the Benefactor doesn't exist. When we're not stealing things, that is."
Locke Lamora, The Gentleman Bastard Sequence
The pun is mightier than the sword!
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2012-05-08, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
re: arming cap
It's basically a cloth version of a suspension system for the helmet, like those plastic straps inside a construction worker's hard-hat, so that it stays in place and not directly next to your head. Otherwise the helmet would provide little protection from impact.
It would be very securely attached to the helmet, and might cost the nobleman more money than the rest of the helmet. But it is an integral part of the helmet, so if you take off the helmet, you also take off the arming cap.
So that's a completely separate hood, and not an arming cap.
edit: Apparently I'm talking about a suspension harness, and arming cap is a more generic term for any cloth under the helmet. Oops.Last edited by Concept; 2012-05-09 at 09:30 AM.
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2012-05-08, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
I wonder why Roy was able to pull off the helmet so easily. Perhaps that only required a touch attack or Tarquin allowed it to happen for the sake of the joke? It was amusing at any rate, although I feel like not much actually happened in this comic, since they're at essentially the same point in the fight as last round.
Perhaps Tarquin has an epic ring of rapid healing? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magic...m#rapidHealing
That would give him 3 hp per round, with the effect being noticed by the Order at this point since they had only recently inflicted damage. It's an expensive ring, but Tarquin strikes me as being able to afford most anything he would like.
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2012-05-08, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
What made this strip even funnier for me was that earlier in the day, I was watching the intro for Jack of All Trades.
President of the Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustment(SHELA)
Glowing Kitty from Lilly
Wren Worgatar by Mephibosheth
The Living Bullet!
Unusual Inner Animal Avatar from Quincunx.
Whenever you mention Pun-pun*SQUELCH!*, Ao kills another Kobold.
Everytime someone says "Pazuzu" twice, Ao erases them on the next "Pa". Then he undeletes them so he can wipeinfo them from the multiverse.
Everytime you kill a catgirl, I get more company.
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2012-05-08, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Yes. Completely awesome. Not incapable of failing or oversight in any way.
No siree.
And really-not played for laughs? Sir Provides-Goofy-Referential-Manuals-To-Guards?
Tarquin's great strength, along with his insight into genre, is explicitly his ability to create failsafes. While things happen that he didn't forsee, such as the above strip, he can guess at the affects on him and recover (hence why he's wearing that ring).
If he was truly invincible, he would have guessed Elan was trying to distract him and countered.My Homestuck role is Thane of Space of the Land of Insanity and Frogs.
The Malkavians would be proud.
***
Thanks to Mokipi for the Exalted avatar!
For avatars of your own, he's on White Wolf.
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2012-05-08, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
But creating plans that always work the first time is not the only function of intelligence. Roy's plans may not work out all the time, but, as was evidenced in the very Thog fight you are complaining about, Roy is very, very good at thinking on his feet and taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves. To completely discount this as being a valid manifestation of his intelligence does intelligence itself a disservice. If Roy wasn't as smart or as capable as he is, then when he got knocked through the floor with Thog, he'd just keep fighting him normally. He needs to be intelligent to turn the columns in to a usable advantage. If you're only looking for flawless plans that go off without a hitch as proof of Roy's intelligence, you're going to be looking for a long time. After all, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
...wasn't there another comic on this site that dealt with this issue once?
Yeah, Roy didn't know about the architecture ahead of time. That doesn't matter. What matters that is that, when he did see it, he knew exactly how to use it to his advantage. That's how you use an intelligence score in combat.Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-05-08 at 03:07 PM.
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2012-05-08, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
@Leliel:
I don't know why you feel the need to resort to this sort of passive-aggressive sarcasm here.
Yes, Tarquin is not omniscient, and he makes mistakes. Did that affect the overall situation, though? It's not entirely clear at the moment, but judging by the current strip, for your example that doesn't seem to be the case. In general, a character doesn't need to succeed in every situation to still have the cards stacked in his favor by the author.
Also, yes, Tarquin is a source of jokes. But these jokes are almost never at his expense, and this is what I would define as "played for laughs". Your example completely supports my argument: Tarquin's guidebooks showcase his competence, such as the ability (again) to predict his opponent's behavior.
Please don't read me as confrontational about it, I'm trying to be as factual as I be with my posts, while your reaction seemed overly defensive. In the end, this is my personal opinion, and I'm aware that other people perceive the strip differently. All I'm trying to do here is to explain (or find out!) why I feel about recent strips the way I do. It's not my intention to "prove you wrong" or something like that when you like it.Last edited by Valyrian; 2012-05-08 at 03:02 PM.
"I'm particularly fond of our priesthood of the Benefactor, since our main duties seem to be sitting around and pretending that the Benefactor doesn't exist. When we're not stealing things, that is."
Locke Lamora, The Gentleman Bastard Sequence
The pun is mightier than the sword!