Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Lvl45DM!]

I think it makes sense Durkon is a bit lower. He was the one dragging his feet during DStP being unwilling to do much. Belkar and Haley were killing regularly in Azure City Elan had a whole side adventure with tons of roleplaying XP and V was making up spells, which would probably grant XP in a vein similar to roleplay. Durkon on the other hand did....not much

[torugo]

Tarkin recognized Holy Word.

Spellcraft needed:
DC 15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

He must have DC = 15+7 =22 spellcraft to recognize Holy Word. At least 2 points placed. If he rolled an average dice (10) he would need 12 skill points...

[EmperorSarda]

I think it makes sense Durkon is a bit lower. He was the one dragging his feet during DStP being unwilling to do much. Belkar and Haley were killing regularly in Azure City Elan had a whole side adventure with tons of roleplaying XP and V was making up spells, which would probably grant XP in a vein similar to roleplay. Durkon on the other hand did....not much

Except the Fleet suffered regular monster attacks, so Durkon was no just doing nothing, he was gaining defending the fleet.

[Felixc-91]

Tarkin recognized Holy Word.

Spellcraft needed:
DC 15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

He must have DC = 15+7 =22 spellcraft to recognize Holy Word. At least 2 points placed. If he rolled an average dice (10) he would need 12 skill points...

Yes T does have spellcraft (good catch), but your calculations fail to take into consideration his int modifier. given what he has done so far (and that a fighter or something that looks like one had points to spend on spellcraft) his intelligence score is probably above average.

EDIT:
Oh, and Z knows gust of wind.

[RMS Oceanic]

Okay, I've entered Nale's level as 16, Z's as 16 or lower since we don't know if he's blind, Tarquin's as 17+, given Z Gust of Wind and Tarquin Spellcraft. Oh, and I also pegged Z as nongood.

[LightPhoenix]

Nevermind, being dumb. Sorry.

[Steven]

Just a dumb question about spellcraft: It's needed to identify a spell as it's being cast but is there any reason an intelligent character without it couldn't deduce what's going on by observing the results if they've encountered the spell before?

[RMS Oceanic]

I guess they could, but we have no evidence other than "35 years of adventuring makes it possible that it happened" that Tarquin experienced it first hand before now.

[lord_khaine]

Just a dumb question about spellcraft: It's needed to identify a spell as it's being cast but is there any reason an intelligent character without it couldn't deduce what's going on by observing the results if they've encountered the spell before?

Absolutely not, it would fx take more than an normaly stupid character to not recognise a fireball AFTER it has been cast

[Shreav]

Okay, I've entered Nale's level as 16, Z's as 16 or lower since we don't know if he's blind, Tarquin's as 17+, given Z Gust of Wind and Tarquin Spellcraft. Oh, and I also pegged Z as nongood.

Durkon is still listed as having level 13-15. Is there still any uncertainty?

Malack is currently listed as having level 11+. Have we really not seen anything to pin him down more accurately? It seems clear from the plot, at least, that he would be no lower than Durkon and with some reasonable probability as high as Tarquin. Obviously if we see that Qarr has been banished by Durkon's Holy Word, too, that would pin him down ...

[RMS Oceanic]

Durkon is still listed as having level 13-15. Is there still any uncertainty?

Kurald Galain deals with the main order.

Malack is currently listed as having level 11+. Have we really not seen anything to pin him down more accurately? It seems clear from the plot, at least, that he would be no lower than Durkon and with some reasonable probability as high as Tarquin. Obviously if we see that Qarr has been banished by Durkon's Holy Word, too, that would pin him down ...

I have no doubt he's higher level, but the highest level spell we've seen him cast is level six. We're all about trying to pin the character's minimum provable level here.

[EmperorSarda]

Durkon is still listed as having level 13-15. Is there still any uncertainty?

Mostly it has to do with Durkon's 7th level spells. So far we have only seen him cast, or have prepared, three 7th level spells. With his wisdom bonus and domain spell, three spells prepared at 7th level still qualifies Durkon to be at minimum 13th level. Hence the uncertainty, since he could easily be level 14 or 15 as well.

[zimmerwald1915]

Mostly it has to do with Durkon's 7th level spells. So far we have only seen him cast, or have prepared, three 7th level spells. With his wisdom bonus and domain spell, three spells prepared at 7th level still qualifies Durkon to be at minimum 13th level. Hence the uncertainty, since he could easily be level 14 or 15 as well.

And yet Belkar's minimum level has been established as 16 for some time. Durkon must be precisely level 15 to simply deafen a level 16 character. At this point, the only reason the listing persists as it does is because Kurald has yet to change it.

[EmperorSarda]

And yet Belkar's minimum level has been established as 16 for some time. Durkon must be precisely level 15 to simply deafen a level 16 character. At this point, the only reason the listing persists as it does is because Kurald has yet to change it.

Belkar's minimum level is based off the number of attacks he got off Roy with the wooden sword in the practice arena.

As for the antagonist levels, I think those are based off personal rivalries or based off the assumption that Durkon is 15th level. Though I could be mistaken about that.

[Kurald Galain]

Just a dumb question about spellcraft: It's needed to identify a spell as it's being cast but is there any reason an intelligent character without it couldn't deduce what's going on by observing the results if they've encountered the spell before?

By the rules, that is what knowledge skills represent.

One thing about Durkon: The Giant posted that his Mass Death Ward is level 7, not level 8; that may imply that Durkon is unable to cast 8th level spells yet? I've pegged his level as 15 now but it may be worth further discussion.

That's within 24 hours of posting the comic, folks :) I'm not online 24/7.

[Crusher]

What?!? Next thing you know you'll be claiming you have a life outside these forums or need to sleep or something else equally ridiculous.

Since Durkon's level 15, doesn't this also mean that his WIS is probably under 24, unless he *just* leveled?

[Shreav]

I've pegged [Durkon's] level as 15 now but it may be worth further discussion.

That's within 24 hours of posting the comic, folks :) I'm not online 24/7.

Please don't consider me to have been complaining (How could I? I know almost nothing about D&D rules so for all I knew, leaving him at 13-15 was the best decision). I was just curious ...

[Chronos]

It is worth noting that, regardless of whether the Giant remembered Durkon's Good domain, this comic is still good evidence that Nale and Belkar (both of whom are deafened but not blinded) are exactly the same level. Plus possibly Z, if we get evidence that he's not blinded.

Theoretically, it would also have been possible for Durkon to use a Bead of Karma before the Holy Word: Those are usually used at the start of the day for long-duration buffs, but it would also make sense to use one in an ambush with a spell that depends as much on caster level as Holy Word. However, an extra +4 on caster level still leaving Belkar and Nale unblinded would stretch credibility pretty far, so I think it unlikely that he used it.

I think all the other RAW means of boosting caster level are either non-core (such as Divine Spell Power), or would show other evidence of their use (such as an ioun stone).

[Kish]

It seems strange to me that Durkon is apparently one level behind Nale and Belkar- and therefore Elan, given the personal rival stuff; given the Giant's usual attitude about such things, it seems more likely that's he's the same level as them and the Giant forgot about him having Good Domain. That, of course, makes Belkar being level 16 problematic, but I never felt that the evidence for that was particularly strong, so that's no big loss.

However, I guess I must recognize that I can't claim inconsistency unless we get an actual contradiction.

I agree with almost everything you're saying. Just a minute...

It seems strange to me that Durkon is apparently one level behind Nale and Belkar-

although honestly I've always thought we're being way too lo(o)se about that semijoke mechanism applying consistently in OOTS-verse, and who is or is not a said rival)

; given the Giant's usual attitude about such things, it seems more likely that's he's the same level as them and the Giant forgot about him having Good Domain. That, of course, makes Belkar being level 16 problematic, but I never felt that the evidence for that was particularly strong, so that's no big loss.

However, I guess I must recognize that I can't claim inconsistency unless we get an actual contradiction.

There. Now I agree with all of it.

[Gilphon]

If Mass Death Ward had been level 8, there'd be no way he could've lost Holy Word but kept the former. That's likely the only contradiction implied by that.

And thank ye kindly, Kish. Though I figure that if the personal rival stuff holds true for anyone, it'll hold true for Elan and Nale.

[Gift Jeraff]

How do we know that Holy Smite came from the Good domain and not the "Thor" domain? Thor does like Heathen Smiting, after all. I think it's best we just list Durkon's domains as unknown/custom.

[Kish]

Considering that Holy Word is also a Good domain spell (though not exclusively), I'd classify that as "not impossible but highly unlikely."

[Gift Jeraff]

Considering that Holy Word is also a Good domain spell (though not exclusively), I'd classify that as "not impossible but highly unlikely."

Control Winds is only available to clerics via the Air domain, yet we assume that's part of the Thor domain...

[MrBanana]

Control Winds is only available to clerics via the Air domain, yet we assume that's part of the Thor domain...

Considering Control Winds is something a "Thor domain" would probably have, this makes a lot of sense.

I think we're not giving the OoTS enough room for originality here.

[Studoku]

It is worth noting that, regardless of whether the Giant remembered Durkon's Good domain, this comic is still good evidence that Nale and Belkar (both of whom are deafened but not blinded) are exactly the same level. Plus possibly Z, if we get evidence that he's not blinded.

He's trying to clear away the smoke, which suggests he'd be able to see otherwise.

[Kish]

I'd say it mainly suggests that he heard Nale's last order and is obeying.

I think most likely all the members of the Order and the genuine members of the Linear Guild (as opposed to the two "if you actually believe they're members Redcloak has a bridge to Terebithia to sell you" nominal-members, Tarquin and Malack) are exactly the same level and Rich forgot about having established Durkon as having the Good domain previously and/or forgot about the domain power of said domain, but not because Zz'dtri tried to cast Gust of Wind.

[Felixc-91]

He's trying to clear away the smoke, which suggests he'd be able to see otherwise.

Or that Z remebered Nale's order to dispell the fog and recognized the spell that hit him so he knows that while he is blind his team may not be. Heck, we might even consider it as evidence that Z is blind given that the smoke is starting to disipate naturally. (It could be either one, just saying.)

[Kurald Galain]

How do we know that Holy Smite came from the Good domain and not the "Thor" domain?

Because no two domains, to my knowledge, have a special ability by the same name.

[Kish]

It's not a domain power. It's a spell. Domains can and do share spells.

[EmperorSarda]

I think until something more is revealed about Thor's domain, that it is best to assume that Holy Word falls under the good domain. Because thus far the spells we assume to be in Thor's domain (Call/Thor's lightning, control air, Thor's might) mostly deal with weather spells.

Let's not assume yet that Holy Smite also falls under the Thor Domain until we have more solid information. I say this because Thor mostly smites by lightning, so there might be another spell in the 7th level Thor domain slot.