League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[NineThePuma]

His ult builds off AP, and if this was "the old days" and all his abilities scaled off AP, no one would ever build him AD.

[Math_Mage]

Apart from the rather obvious Black Cleaver, what new items does Talon profit from? Does Muramasa fit in with him, or is he too much AOE damage and not enough AA/single target?

While Muramasa has made Manamune a much better item for several champions, Talon has neither the mana usage requirements nor the single-target damage focus to take advantage of it. BC, BT, LW, Scimitar, and GA would be my build of choice.

[Thrawn183]

So I got my friend to try out Black Cleaver MF on Summoner's Rift for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgICtdgBrj8.

Guess we were right about MF's ult doing physical damage and applying max stacks of the armor debuff to almost the entire enemy team.

Edit: Pertinent stats of armor pen were 69 flat, 40% from Last Whisper and 30% from Black Cleaver resulting in true damage on anyone with less than 165 armor.

[ex cathedra]

It's nice on paper, but it means he has to build Infinity Edge, when his crit-synergy is not phenomenal. It also means building Sword of the Divine, which I don't see getting much use past this one little trick. I just think it's a rather gimmicky way of spending about 6k gold, when you could be getting the more conventional and consistent Bloodthirster and Last Whisper to shoot people's heads off, with maybe a Brutalizer thrown in.

I think that the point of SotD Jayce is that a champion with a ranged auto, 30% AD steroid, and like 200% AS steroid literally has the best crit scaling in the game

[Lix Lorn]

Are there other champions I should buy instead? Is there a reason why I *shouldn't* grab Varus?

Varus is... odd. I know a few people who love him as their favourite carry. But I also know people, myself included, who played him once and just thought 'Well, that was Exactly like playing a blend of every other carry. (Especially MF and Ashe)'
So... how many carries do you play? The ideal answer is one.

Varus is a weird one. I think he can actually be run as an AP right now.

My instinct is to argue, but then I remember we're on the preaseason patch, so... man, I don't even know.

[Neftren]

There have been several posts on GD about this. All stacking Black Cleavers does is allow you to get up to 3 stacks faster. It doesn't shred more armor.

Except you aren't buying Cleaver for the passive... you're buying it for the stats, which are no longer unique passives (a la Brutalizer).

[ex cathedra]

That. As cool as SotD Jayce happens to be, when you get 15 ArPen, 50AD, 10% CDR, and 250 HP in one item slot there's very little incentive to build anything else. Two or three of those, a BT, a LW, and like GA, Randuin's, FH, Scimitar, or something. The Black cleaver passive isn't very important.

Speaking of it, though, can someone confirm or deny that if you build two Cleaving items (like Frozen Fist and Tiamat) with your BC, do the splashes apply one BC stack total or one BC stack each?

[toasty]

Even for Taric, who hates most of the new items, Shurelya's and Crucible are way higher priorities than finishing Bulwark. Of course, that just leaves the question of how he's ever going to fit Kage's, Philo, Sightstone, Chalice, and Emblem into his early game.

The nice thing is that Sightstone and Ruby Sightstone have obscenely high sellback value, so buying them early shouldn't compromise slot efficiency too much later on.

I built Bulwark yesterday on Taric. Tabi, Bulwark and ... I'm not sure what else I had, but I had something like 200 Armor 150 MR. I was the team's main tank.

That's why I like playing Taric, you don't need CDR, you can just build tanky and sit on the AD carry. You provide a lot of free stats and your peel isn't very good, but its better than nothing.

edit: Bulwark and Locket of the Iron Solari. 200+Armor and 150 MR or so.

[Silverraptor]

Well, the official votes are in. I guess I'll be Ultn Gragas Style!

[Math_Mage]

I built Bulwark yesterday on Taric. Tabi, Bulwark and ... I'm not sure what else I had, but I had something like 200 Armor 150 MR. I was the team's main tank.

That's why I like playing Taric, you don't need CDR, you can just build tanky and sit on the AD carry. You provide a lot of free stats and your peel isn't very good, but its better than nothing.

edit: Bulwark and Locket of the Iron Solari. 200+Armor and 150 MR or so.

If you're just sitting on the AD carry and peeling, you don't actually have to be main-tank tanky, just enough so to be an unappealing focus target who can get between the bruisers and your carry. Upgrading to Bulwark only gave your AD carry 20 extra MR. Shurelya's would give him a Ghost, Crucible would give him a Cleanse. In the absence of a CC-independent mage assassin like Akali, those effects are Just Better for your AD. (For that matter, all you got for your 1050 gold was 30 MR and 150 health. That's not even cost-efficient, unlike Aegis, or at least pre-patch Aegis.)

I just feel like upgrading to Bulwark is like upgrading Hexdrinker to Maw: a good way to spend gold when you run out of slots, but before that you simply have better things to buy.

[Ashen Lilies]

Help a poor guy out? How to play Janna in lane? Most other supports I've tried generally have pretty clear goals of what they should be accomplishing during the laning phase, but for whatever reason Janna hasn't really 'clicked' with me as to what her kit is suited for in lane.

[Math_Mage]

Help a poor guy out? How to play Janna in lane? Most other supports I've tried generally have pretty clear goals of what they should be accomplishing during the laning phase, but for whatever reason Janna hasn't really 'clicked' with me as to what her kit is suited for in lane.

Janna depends on proper coordination of ability usage with the AD carry. Shield is central to her gameplay; apart from reactively preventing damage and enabling better last-hitting, it's the signal for the AD carry to begin an engagement. Tornadoes and Zephyrs control the fight and flight of enemies, respectively. Because Janna has a varied toolbox, her approach to laning varies based on the enemy lane. Against an all-in lane, the goal is to let the AD make advantageous harass trades with shield while avoiding the all-ins with mobility. Against a heal/harass lane, the goal is to build an advantageous trade with positioning and then pound it home with Zephyr/Tornado chase. Since Janna has no sustain and uses her shield on the AD, positioning to avoid being focused or collaterally harassed is very important. Appropriate timings of shield, tornado, and ult are also critical to playing Janna properly.

[Eldariel]

I think that the point of SotD Jayce is that a champion with a ranged auto, 30% AD steroid, and like 200% AS steroid literally has the best crit scaling in the game

Jayce wastes the massive ASpd buff the item has tho; I'd rather prefer a champion with large inherent damage buff like Vayne Ult.

[TFT]

If you're just sitting on the AD carry and peeling, you don't actually have to be main-tank tanky, just enough so to be an unappealing focus target who can get between the bruisers and your carry. Upgrading to Bulwark only gave your AD carry 20 extra MR. Shurelya's would give him a Ghost, Crucible would give him a Cleanse. In the absence of a CC-independent mage assassin like Akali, those effects are Just Better for your AD. (For that matter, all you got for your 1050 gold was 30 MR and 150 health. That's not even cost-efficient, unlike Aegis, or at least pre-patch Aegis.)

I just feel like upgrading to Bulwark is like upgrading Hexdrinker to Maw: a good way to spend gold when you run out of slots, but before that you simply have better things to buy.

Okay, I see where the issue is: You are thinking in terms of just benefits to ad carries, while I'm thinking of benefits for the whole team.

Against most aoe mids, aegis gives better stats then Crucible to the team. It's 20 + 15 mr per person on aegis as opposed to the 40 mr for one person(Which, once you hit 3 people, gives out more mr to the team). The mana regen, as I stated before, isn't necessary in my opinion on taric so that's not really a concern (Plus, now that mana manipulator can be built into a build (kages plus that for shard) it might be viable to pick up if you need that extra mana regen), and the up to 50 bonus armor for the team is a benefit in the midgame, as well as the emblem itself for laning. The cleanse is really nice, I'll fully admit. So is the mana regen. I just don't see them as as good as the stats aegis or bulwark gives once you hit midgame. I will admit though, that for a hypercarry comp or if you are plannning on a long laning phase, Crucible would be really nice. And I'm not saying to never pick up cruicible either, it's just that aegis is more useful for the midgame when teamfights start and it's item it builds from is better for laning.

What you get for each item:

Main item it builds from:
Aegis: Emblem 20 armor, 7 health regen per 5 to team - cost 650
Cruicible : Chalice 25 MR, 7 mana regen per 5 to self + mana regen passive - cost 880

Stats for item
Aegis 250 health, 20 + 10 * allied champs armor(up to 60 total), 20 + 15 * allied champs MR(up to 80 total), 10 health per 5 - cost 2150

Crucible: Cleanse on 180 second cooldown, 300 mana, 40 mr 9 mana + 5, mana regen passive. - cost 2200

Champs like lulu and sona should definitely pick Cruicible over aegis. I think Aegis is still better for leona and taric, looking at the stats. (Other then specific cases. There are probably times when aegis rush might be better on lulu and sona too, though those would be as rare as Cruicible on taric and leona).

Looking though, going for Bulwark may not be the best option unless you are facing a really strong aoe mid. I'll have to give it some thought.

EDIT: (As a sidenote, Bulwark gives 150 health and 50 global mr (20 mr comes from NMM so I'm going to count that somewhat separately) It would be nice if Bulwark kept the 10 mr instead of losing 10 mr on the wielder though, to be honest. I guess it needed to go for balancing purposes.) But as is it isn't worth the 1000ish gold cost for the stats it gives. Just aegis as opposed to Bulwark for my arguments still works though.

[TheShrike]

Speaking of it, though, can someone confirm or deny that if you build two Cleaving items (like Frozen Fist and Tiamat) with your BC, do the splashes apply one BC stack total or one BC stack each?

Just tried it as GP. Qing a minion next to an enemy champion gives said enemy champion two Black Cleaver stacks with Tiamat and Frozen Fist.

[ex cathedra]

Jayce wastes the massive ASpd buff the item has tho; I'd rather prefer a champion with large inherent damage buff like Vayne Ult.

Vayne is a carry, though, and so she loses a MASSIVE amount of sustained damage when SotD is down. Jayce is still an AD caster/bruiser. SotD also interacts poorly with PD.

[Qwertystop]

Question: how does the non-stacking of named Uniques work when there's more difference than just damage? For example, all the items that build from Sheen.

[Godskook]

Jayce wastes the massive ASpd buff the item has tho; I'd rather prefer a champion with large inherent damage buff like Vayne Ult.

How is that relevant? The item-active wastes the ASpd buff of the item already, so the gimmick really doesn't care about the ASpd enough to care that the champ doesn't use it well.

[TechnOkami]

So, I just tried out Jungle Tryndamere in a bot game.

Opened machete 5 pots, got an amazing le- well, I can't call it leashing now can I? Fiddles E'd Red and dealt buckets of damage to it. I proceeded to run around camps, never really ganked until midgame, had boots and an avarice blade, wriggles and I *think* a full infinity edge. I'm not too sure if it's doable/viable/worth it in normal games at the moment.

But...

Oh My God I Hit Like a Truck.

End Items (I have no idea of this was even optimal): Ravenous Hydra, Blade of the Ruined King, Statikk Shiv, Infinity Edge, Berserker's Greaves, and a Bloodthirster.

I easily towered as the Barbarian King of damage amongst the people I was playing with at 460,076 damage (the runner up was Jax at 310,497).

[Eldariel]

How is that relevant? The item-active wastes the ASpd buff of the item already, so the gimmick really doesn't care about the ASpd enough to care that the champ doesn't use it well.

Huh? You deliver the damage in a shorter period of time which is pretty much exactly the point of ASpd; I don't see how that's irrelevant.

[Dragonus45]

So i just got Ezreal for the first time ever and im wondering if anyone has some season 3 build advice. Everything i know about him or can find is season 2 stuff or older.

[Lix Lorn]

Personally, I start crystal+pots and rush a sheen, then build trinity force. After that, standard carry... I have been experimenting with tear before sheen, but I fear it takes too long for anything to come online.

[NineThePuma]

I've been told that muramana is excellent on Ezreal. I don't believe it, since Ezreal typically only builds Trinity for mana, but hey, I'm just a cat.

[Lix Lorn]

He's one of very few characters who spams enough to stack it, autoattacks enough to benefit from it, and uses mana little enough not to miss the depths of his mana pool that it devours.

[LordShotGun]

I've been told that muramana is excellent on Ezreal. I don't believe it, since Ezreal typically only builds Trinity for mana, but hey, I'm just a cat.

Chaox was building it on Ez all yesterday (or the day before, I forget) and was doing amazing poke damage with it. However, even with the extra mana, the mana infused autoattack do drain your mana very quickly.

[Nadevoc]

Suggestion for next thread's title: We're All Noobs Now!
Or something along those lines.

How is that relevant? The item-active wastes the ASpd buff of the item already, so the gimmick really doesn't care about the ASpd enough to care that the champ doesn't use it well.

Half of the active is a +100%AS buff. If you're pairing it with a champ's ability that caps his AS, that means that half of the active is literally having no effect.

It could be that I'm building Jayce wrong, but I don't think I would ever pick up IE on him. BT is always preferred because the flat AD actually works with his abilities (notably, gated Q), and he can't build that squishy because he wants to be able to jump into melee and use his hammer form so he can't really build that many pure offensive items. Overall, AS just doesn't seem that great on him - he's semi-AD caster and has his cannon W for when he really needs to shoot fast.

[TechnOkami]

League of Legends XLI: Ohmwrecked on the Lane

[Godskook]

Half of the active is a +100%AS buff. If you're pairing it with a champ's ability that caps his AS, that means that half of the active is literally having no effect.

As someone who makes a habit of re-reading item descriptions during these discussions, I demand to know how I missed this!

It could be that I'm building Jayce wrong, but I don't think I would ever pick up IE on him. BT is always preferred because the flat AD actually works with his abilities (notably, gated Q), and he can't build that squishy because he wants to be able to jump into melee and use his hammer form so he can't really build that many pure offensive items. Overall, AS just doesn't seem that great on him - he's semi-AD caster and has his cannon W for when he really needs to shoot fast.

Laudandus swears by CDR-tank on him, and Aether and I both advocated BT on him in S2. The SotD thing, I'm not sold on the overall viability of it, but I still don't think the AS-scaling issue is that big of an actual issue.

[sonofzeal]

He's one of very few characters who spams enough to stack it, autoattacks enough to benefit from it, and uses mana little enough not to miss the depths of his mana pool that it devours.

Muramana Teemo? Does Toxic Shot charge and/or apply Muramana goodness

[Reynard]

Muramana Teemo? Does Toxic Shot charge and/or apply Muramana goodness

Single target spells and autoattacks only. Thank god.