General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[AgentIndy]

So, I have been a fan of Exalted for about a year, and have decided to bite the bullet and storytell a game on these forums. Unfortunately, I have never actually played a game of Exalted despite having the core book and the Infernals book(along with a few supplements) for a while now. Any tips for a new ST? Particularly on play-by-post combat.

Also, I want to have the Silver Prince and She Who Lives In Her Name as the over arching antagonists, any recommendations on what intermediaries they would you use, and how they operate, beyond the basics that are in the core book. Help would be much appreciated.

[Turalisj]

Try to ignore combat as much as possible.

[Lix Lorn]

Any tips for a new ST? Particularly on play-by-post combat.

Abandon hope, all ye who enter here.


Plan ahead, but not too much. Make sure the game you want to tell is the game your players think they're playing. One of my friends tried to storytell an adventure in the wyld, and the players took this to mean a fae-slaying slaughterfest. It went badly.

[industrious]

Using the Silver Prince and SWLiHN both have deathknights and akuma as minions. So, I'd say use ghosts, akuma and demons as elite mooks, and deathknights/Infernals as major antagonists. Once you have a foe that's Exalted, you need to make them memorable, even if only in small ways. Give them quirks, possibly physical, possibly verbal so that players can recognize them instinctively.

[AgentIndy]

Alright, I will keep that tip about combat in mind. If a situation of violence did come up, would it be better to handle it as a skill check, or something similar?

Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals are roughly equal power wise, right?

[Lix Lorn]

If violence comes up, the combat system is pretty necessary. Just, be careful. It's too easy to accidentally kill a character. Make sure you're using all the errata, and check how good the players' defences are to make sure you don't just curbstomp them.

Theoretically, they're equal. Abyssals are good at killing, worse at creating. Infernals have very narrow and very Strange expertises, but do things solars can't.

[aetherialDawn]

Solars are good at everything.
Abyssals are good at killing, bad at building. Anything else, they're mostly differently-fluffed Solars.
Infernals tend to fall into a single mode of operations, because as long as they stick to one theme they can be very, very good. They tend to be a little more flexible than Solars inside their theme, and have very few tools outside of it.

For SWLiHN urges, you're likely going to see attempts to introduce homogeneity, dictatorships with clear hierarchies, and severe hatred of the Wyld. However, there's an annoying Exalt on the near end, who may be creatively 'interpreting' his orders to do what he wants (although 'dictatorship with me on top' is a time-honored Exalted desire.)

[Kyeudo]

Solars, Abyssals, and Infernals are roughly equal power wise, right?

Technically, if they went head to head, the Abyssal would lose to the Solar slightly more often than he'd win (Holy Charms, Abyssal Charms not better at killing in the important places).

Unless the Infernal is a Slayer who favors Adorjan, he'll probably be in the same boat, as the 2.5 Charms that an Infernal needs to be compeditive in combat are otherwise fairly expensive.

[AgentIndy]

Hmm, interesting. I ask since the mixed Exalted party I am going to run is made up of one Solar, two Infernals, an Abyssal, and a Lunar that is using the home brew rules that make that character on par with the other players.

[Ifni]

Hmm, interesting. I ask since the mixed Exalted party I am going to run is made up of one Solar, two Infernals, an Abyssal, and a Lunar that is using the home brew rules that make that character on par with the other players.

Just a note - those chargen rules help, but the Lunar PCs will likely fall behind power-wise, more so as time goes on. As a default, everything costs more in XP for Lunars than it does for Solars/Abyssals/Infernals (sometimes people have everyone use Solar XP costs, in mixed games, to keep things more balanced), and on top of that, Lunar charms generally are not as powerful/efficient as Solar/Abyssal/Infernal charms. There are things Lunars can do easily that Solars/Abyssals/Infernals have a lot of trouble with (Lunar shapeshifting is amazing for mobility and certain kinds of utility), but in general, Solars/Abyssals/Infernals are stronger, and in particular when they focus on a particular area they tend to leave Lunars in the dust (although this is less true for combat than for most other fields).

(I'm probably going to be playing a Lunar in said game as one of the Infernals dropped out. I'm fine with the power disparity, AgentIndy, just be aware that there is one.)

[Lix Lorn]

I'd recommend letting the lunar use Solar exp costs, cause that's the main thing that'll make things bad for him.

[RPGuru1331]

IIRC, Abyssals can exploit the fact that they're stronger -even by a relatively small amount - mercilessly, and lose some power against equal or stronger opponents.

[Andreaz]

IIRC, Abyssals can exploit the fact that they're stronger -even by a relatively small amount - mercilessly, and lose some power against equal or stronger opponents.

That's a risky idea on its own, and the implementation largely failed at this.

[Maugan Ra]

One thing I'll be interested to see in 3rd edition is how they handle limit. I'd personally be quite fond of them using a similar method as the alternate Abyssals Resonance rules from Shards, where increasing levels of it bring increasingly severe effects on the surrounding environment. Though exact specifics for how this would be adapted onto other Exalt types eludes me right now.

Still, so long as I never have to see the Mirror keyword again, I'll be happy...

[Aevylmar]

Abyssals always seemed to me to be really interesting in theory - as the Weapons of the Neverborn - but to fail in actual play In my experience (which is mostly 2.0), they tend to actually be weaker than Solars, because they don't have so many good Resistance charms, they're vulnerable to Holy attacks, and so forth. They really end up feeling like lesser Solars.

My advice is that if you want to make Abyssals feel Abyssal is to exploit their status as leading ghosts. You can smuggle a nigh-infinite number of ghosts in a small space as long as they know Assassin's Subtle Trick, so having your Abyssal running around with a legion of ghosts in his pocket lets him pull off a lot of neat, subtle tricks.

And @Maugen: I'm really hoping to see some clever Abyssal limit ideas. My guess is that Shards was, at least partly, an opportunity for them to test some ideas for third edition; if I'm right, there will be a refined version of the system in 3.0.

[omegalith]

Abyssals always seemed to me to be really interesting in theory - as the Weapons of the Neverborn

I find it more interesting if that's only a subset of what they are: Champion of the Dead is a much more interesting concept for a player character, but the default resonance rules make that almost impossible.

they're vulnerable to Holy attacks

The solution there is to have Unholy effects to even the field. The Neverborn have named you a Creature of Light.

Heck, given that the Neverborn hate everyone and aren't particularly lucid, you could have random people picking up the CoL tag and the more religious Abyssals taking that as a sign they've been marked for immediate death.

[Exthalion]

I find it more interesting if that's only a subset of what they are: Champion of the Dead is a much more interesting concept for a player character, but the default resonance rules make that almost impossible.



The solution there is to have Unholy effects to even the field. The Neverborn have named you a Creature of Light.

Heck, given that the Neverborn hate everyone and aren't particularly lucid, you could have random people picking up the CoL tag and the more religious Abyssals taking that as a sign they've been marked for immediate death.

Or, you could just make everything that isn't a Creature of Darkness a Creature of Light. Thus anything involving Abyssals turns into rocket tag with the aggravated damage.

[TimeWizard]

No need to turn Exalted into even MORE of a perfect defense tic tac toe than it already is

[Rikandur Azebol]

Aren't Abyssals already have effects that work harder on living ? Sans golems and automata, everything not from the Underworld is alive after all.

[Exthalion]

Aren't Abyssals already have effects that work harder on living ? Sans golems and automata, everything not from the Underworld is alive after all.

Most of those tend to target mortals as opposed to living. Ghosts are not mortal. This seems to be the Abyssal mirror of Holy. (From my, admittedly, limited experience.)

[Maugan Ra]

Abyssal abilities tend to work better on mortals, gods and Raksha as I remember it (not absolutely sure about the gods). Which basically means everything but the Exalted... something that doesn't help them in a straight fight.

[Exthalion]

Abyssal abilities tend to work better on mortals, gods and Raksha as I remember it (not absolutely sure about the gods). Which basically means everything but the Exalted... something that doesn't help them in a straight fight.

I think gods are an Infernal and Sidereal thing.

[The_Snark]

Abyssal abilities tend to work better on mortals, gods and Raksha as I remember it (not absolutely sure about the gods). Which basically means everything but the Exalted... something that doesn't help them in a straight fight.

Mortals, raksha, and sometimes ghosts, I think. There's a sidebar somewhere in the Abyssal book which mentions that Abyssal Charms treat ghosts as mortals for some purposes, although I don't remember how all-encompassing that is.

[Aevylmar]

Except that as I remember it, the Abyssal charms that do horrible things to 'the living' replace Solar charms that affect 'anything'; where the Solars would target 'Creatures of Darkness', the Abyssals affect 'Raksha'. For instance, Essence Arrow has a mode that deals aggravated damage to CoDs; anti-Essence Arrow hits Raksha.

And with regards to the 'Not Weapons of the Neverborn' thing: One of the attractive things about the Exalted setting to me was always that each element of the setting - more specifically, each type of supernatural being - was designed for a purpose, whether that was some second-circle demon going 'I want more muscle' and making Blood Apes, or the Primordials making mortals to fuel the gods so they could take the day off. The Solars were to 'Lead creation and kill Primordials'. The DBs were made to carry out the Solars' orders on a micro level.

And the Abyssals were designed for one very specific purpose: Kill everything. If I were rewriting the Abyssals, I would put myself in the shoes of the Neverborn: "Does this charm lead to more death (Y/N)?" And then I'd cut everything that's N. A charm that makes crowds go berzerk? Very Abyssal. A charm that makes fields barren? Very Abyssal. A charm that helps Abyssals build manses? Only if it's fueled by killing people.

I'm not saying this from an out-of-universe game balance perspective. I'm saying that the Neverborn, by and large, get to pick what powers the Abyssals get, and they'd pick powers that fitted their objectives.

[Exthalion]

Except that as I remember it, the Abyssal charms that do horrible things to 'the living' replace Solar charms that affect 'anything'; where the Solars would target 'Creatures of Darkness', the Abyssals affect 'Raksha'. For instance, Essence Arrow has a mode that deals aggravated damage to CoDs; anti-Essence Arrow hits Raksha.

And with regards to the 'Not Weapons of the Neverborn' thing: One of the attractive things about the Exalted setting to me was always that each element of the setting - more specifically, each type of supernatural being - was designed for a purpose, whether that was some second-circle demon going 'I want more muscle' and making Blood Apes, or the Primordials making mortals to fuel the gods so they could take the day off. The Solars were to 'Lead creation and kill Primordials'. The DBs were made to carry out the Solars' orders on a micro level.

And the Abyssals were designed for one very specific purpose: Kill everything. If I were rewriting the Abyssals, I would put myself in the shoes of the Neverborn: "Does this charm lead to more death (Y/N)?" And then I'd cut everything that's N. A charm that makes crowds go berzerk? Very Abyssal. A charm that makes fields barren? Very Abyssal. A charm that helps Abyssals build manses? Only if it's fueled by killing people.

I'm not saying this from an out-of-universe game balance perspective. I'm saying that the Neverborn, by and large, get to pick what powers the Abyssals get, and they'd pick powers that fitted their objectives.

Except the Abyssals weren't scratch build as the Champions of Oblivion. The Neverborn had to re purpose the existing Solar shards. They couldn't and likely didn't want to mess with too much of the "base code" which is why the mirror keyword exists.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Abyssals are, on the other hand ... some sort of metaphysical "reverse" Solars.

That means, since Oblivion tends to look like horrid reverse of Daystar, that alone is enough to expect Abyssal charms to work "contrary" to Solar ones.

Where Excellencies of the Solar help him improve, the Abyssal ones should work by penalizing the opponent, eventually "help" Abyssal by destroying something.

[Exthalion]

Abyssals are, on the other hand ... some sort of metaphysical "reverse" Solars.

That means, since Oblivion tends to look like horrid reverse of Daystar, that alone is enough to expect Abyssal charms to work "contrary" to Solar ones.

Where Excellencies of the Solar help him improve, the Abyssal ones should work by penalizing the opponent, eventually "help" Abyssal by destroying something.

That would get rather difficult from a mechanics standpoint. Shadow Spite Curse is a bit contentious (though that might just be unclear text) and it wouldn't be clear when you would use it. For example, what if you are attacking someone. Can you use your anti excellency to reduce their soak.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Of course not ! Is there an Excellency that improves Soak in Solar repertoire ?

Like it was mentioned above, it would decrease foe's dice-pool, probably Dodge/Meele. Depending on what is used to defend versus attack from Abyssal. Similarly Dodge would hamper enemie's attacks.

The Craft tree would require consideration, but IF we go by the theme we simply make it into break-stuff-easier tree. You can have minions working their *achem* best for you on the pain of death after all.

That way thinking about Abyssals, would make them less Goth Emo Loli Solars and more into Abyssals. Saying so, were Abyssal interested in creation of things and other such blasphemies ... he should hope that his speciality/skill and bonuses from magical items he stole are enough. Simple as that.

Their mission there is to BUTCHER everyone and tear down Creation's "reality" not to mope around with black/gray facepaints.

[Kyeudo]

That sort of thinking is what has made Abyssals as straightjacketed as they currently are.

Currently, there are two stories to tell with Abyssals - Loyalists who tear down Creation and Rebels who seek to become not-Abyssals. There should be more, but the mechanics (and not just Resonance) don't let it happen.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, I've talked about this a lot. I'm gonna explain it like someone else explained it to me:

Basically, for Abyssals to become more free….they must become less emo-Solars.

hear me out. The reason people have restricted Abyssals to two stories, is because their own charmset doesn't convey the story enough on its own- for example, the Sidereals can have any story they want but they still have a charmset that keeps reeling them in back to their themes of fate and such.

with the Abyssals, their charmset is too much like Solars, resulting in the available stories being too limited so that they differ enough from Solars to have a unique play experience. However, if their charmset was more unique and such, less copy-paste Solar charms with black paint, and more evocative of Abyssal themes, then the stories would open up and it wouldn't matter what stories you would tell with them, because their charms would keep the themes of the Abyssals alive no matter what the story being told.

is that all making sense? the limited number of Abyssal stories is mostly because the charms they have don't convey the Abyssal themes good enough.