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2013-04-08, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
This has probably already been covered, but I missed it because talk about biology is so incredibly fascinatin- SNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE...
Ah right, anyway, what possible relevance does gendered biology have to a comic loosely based on a game system where women are just as capable as reaching a natural 18 in STR, CON and DEX as men?
Also, holy crap, I just realised how male-centric Harry Potter is for a world where physical capability is meaningless.Last edited by oppyu; 2013-04-08 at 09:13 PM.
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2013-04-08, 09:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
My apologies, English isn't my first language, and grammatical persons are something I have never, ever been able to fully master.
Actually, muscle growth and development is tied to the Growth Hormone. A study proved that the testosterone variance post-exercise that previous studies had observed in men was the result of plasma volume changes as a result of exercise, and once they corrected for that, actual testosterone levels were unchanged, while the hormone that actually changed was GH. Then there are more studies proving that the main endocrine influence on GH (after GHRH) is actually oestrogen, and how there is no gender variance in GH release in children. Shoot me a PM and I'll send you the links to all the studies, if you want.
I find it incredibly disturbing that you would consider that gender equality precludes humanity. Like, gut-wrenchingly disturbing.
Biological determinism taken to its absolute extreme.
Irrelevant. We're also almost genetically identical to most of the animal kingdom. Genetic similarities are irrelevant. Biology does not work like that.
Biology does not work like that. Genetic similarities are irrelevant.
Also, the answer's yes, by the way. Different cultures have genetical differences, and the same culture in different periods of time have genetical differences. That's the entire point of epigenetics, genetic plasticity and polymorphisms.
Genetics does not dictate behaviour in species capable of developing culture.
Nobody's saying you invented it. My point of content is your determinism. You seem to imply that because something has been, or is, then it must be. Nobody is refuting the historical facts that you are bringing up. What is being refuted is the conclusion that you derive from them.
Nobody is asking you to defend authors who do that, because nobody is attacking them. That sentence that you composed? We all know that. That's why nobody is accusing the Giant of anything, because we understand that he has the creative freedom to do as he wills, and that when it comes to making sacrifices to the Money God, marginalised groups are the first to go. We know that.
What we are arguing is that it doesn't have to be that way.
I don't understand the question. The reason is irrelevant. I don't care why an author chooses to do something. It is beyond my influence and control, and an author telling me "I gotta feed my family" does not make me feel better about the fact that I have little to no characters in fiction I can relate to. It is not my place to question why an author does what they do, but it's also not the author's place to tell me I have no right to feel bad at the lack of inclusion in fiction.
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2013-04-08, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2013-04-08, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Fujin, are you summoned by mention of English as a second (or third, or fourth, etc.) language, or have you been reading this?
Irrelevant. We're also almost genetically identical to most of the animal kingdom. Genetic similarities are irrelevant. Biology does not work like that.Last edited by Raineh Daze; 2013-04-08 at 09:20 PM.
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-08, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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2013-04-08, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- The land of corn
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2013-04-08, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The effects of exercise may well be moderated by GH, but I'm not talking about exercise, which is by definition a form of environment-mediated training, not an innate biological capacity. Higher testosterone allows muscle to be built faster and/or with less effort, and a glance at wikipedia will tell you why.
This is why, despite decades of effort, the very best women bodybuilders still fall substantially short of the results obtained by the best male bodybuilders. If this is not adequate evidence for you- based on the idea that some form of environmental impediment *must* have indefinitely crippled the physique of every woman who ever tried to bodybuild- then you have essentially created an unfalsifiable hypothesis. You are demanding a standard of proof that can never be satisfied.
I find it incredibly disturbing that you would consider that gender equality precludes humanity...
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2013-04-08, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I would consider a species that shows absolutely no physical or mental differences between genders to be non-human, yes. I mean, taken literally, that means erasing differences like breasts and genitals and body-hair distribution. That's what gender is. It's 'biologically deterministic' in the same sense as pointing out that 'black people have darker skin', and the fact that people can get varying degrees of a tan does not alter this basic difference in biology.Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-08, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Okay, I was going to avoid touching on this topic, but how do you reconcile the gender-is-a-social-construct hypothesis with transsexuality, which is after all a hard-wired biological compulsion to express certain gender traits in the face of enormous environmental pressures to the contrary?
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2013-04-08, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
... because it's not a hardwired biological compulsion?
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-08, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Last edited by jere7my; 2013-04-08 at 09:41 PM.
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2013-04-08, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- The land of corn
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
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2013-04-08, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2013-04-08, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Transsexuals identify as the opposite sex, and associate roles and behaviors traditionally tied to that sex as conductive to their goal(Of being as "like" that sex as possible.).
Thus they mimic those behaviors, often assigning more importance to them than people actually of that sex to make up for thier lack of primary sexual characteristics.
Gender roles are mostly a social construct. There are a few carry-overs from hunter/gatherer times, or ones that make use of the male's higher upper-body strength, but the rest? Totally irrelevant."You want to see how a Human dies? at ramming speed."
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2013-04-08, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
And about 90% cat, too. Every girl is a catgirl.
First of all, I take issue at your conception of unfalsifiable hypothesis. That is not what unfalsifiable means. It does not mean demanding a standard of proof that can never be satisfied, it means that it cannot be disproved. And yes, unfalsifiability is bad, but that's because hypothesis need to be falsifiable to be epistemologically sound. Well, as far as Karl Popper goes.
Secondly, there is an environmental impediment that is crippling every woman, and it's an inadequate secretion of GH during childhood and puberty. GH not only handles muscle growth, it also handles bone growth and general size. A woman whose GH secretion is inadequate will never be as strong as she could have been when she reaches adulthood.
That is precisely why infantile undernourishment, for example, is such a critical affair, because the biological potential lost in childhood and puberty cannot be recovered in adulthood. Endocrine balance during formative stages is crucial for reaching full adult potential.
You are confusing gender with biological sex. While the conception of gender includes, formally, biological sex, it also carries severe purely cultural connotations, and in the scientific community, distinction between both is absolutely vital. To avoid confusion, gender is described as the cultural baggage on top of biological sex, and biological sex refers only to reproductive organs and the primary and secondary sexual characteristics.
As well you should. That is literally dehumanising.
Gender disphoria is not a hard-wired biological compulsion. It is a form of highly specific psychological distress at one's self-perception not matching one's exterior form.
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2013-04-08, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-08, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Again, I'm not sure how this modifies the point I was making. Assuming it's important, how does D&D help us to understand or grapple with real-world gender concerns?
No, seriously, address the point. If you're saying that the physical/mental differences men and women are purely the result of environmental pressures, then this would preclude the existence of transsexuality in societies that have strong traditional gender roles. Which flies in the face of thousands of actual case histories. This theory does not fit the facts.
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2013-04-08, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- The land of corn
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Transsexuality isn't about gender. It's about sex. Strong gender roles have nothing to do with that. If you think that societies with strong gender roles preclude the possibility of transsexuality, then you don't understand that basic difference which does make the theory fit the facts. And that's all I need to say about that.
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2013-04-08, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
"You want to see how a Human dies? at ramming speed."
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2013-04-08, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The point here is that D&D switched from a system in which physical sex affected gameplay to one in which it didn't, and despite all the howling from "realists" and "biological determinists" the game didn't change. D&D humans didn't suddenly become nonhuman. The game just became a little more welcoming to women.
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2013-04-08, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
"You want to see how a Human dies? at ramming speed."
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2013-04-08, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
It is unfalsifiable for all practical intents and purposes. And again, what evidence do you have that GH differences are not themselves biological? Because typically, the juices that your own body secretes are not considered an aspect of external environment.
You are confusing gender with biological sex. While the conception of gender includes, formally, biological sex, it also carries severe purely cultural connotations...
Gender disphoria is not a hard-wired biological compulsion...
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2013-04-08, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Only if you are unaware of the arbitrariness of gender. I do the exact opposite precisely to spit in the face of gender constructs.
Sending you a PM with the studies.
Also, read up a bit on GH. It's one of the most environmentally dependent hormones in our bodies. And it is highly dependant on exercise (and its intensity and frequency), which is an environmental factor.
Science has already been there and done that. No matter what badly regurgitated pop science tells you, the only purely biological differences between the sexes are the three I mentioned in my previous post: reproductive organs, primary sexual characteristics, and secondary sexual characteristics.
Anything else? All that often-cited bit about hormones having an influence in mood and behaviour? Still up in the air. For every study that supports one finding, there is another that contradicts it, and another one that proposes a third different thing.
Of course, the studies that get touted are those that support the oppressive status quo, misapplying science to support oppression, biological determinism and socially harmful practices.
That is not gender dysphoria. You are not citing gender dysphoria. You are citing biological explanations for transexuality, which is not the same. Gender dysphoria is psychological distress with highly specific causes and symptoms. If you took a cis-gendered girl in our current world and raised her as though she was a boy, she would experience gender dysphoria. It is not a phenomenon purely reserved for trans people.
Whether transexuality is biological or not is still up for debate. There is evidence that supports it, yes, and there is evidence that contradicts those findings or supports other theories.
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2013-04-08, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Biology isn't going to help with identification or diagnosis. Best case scenario: nothing changes. Worst case scenario: people that have a legitimate problem are ignored because the criteria chosen are wrong. >_>
About the only thing I could say I'm suffering from at the moment is irritation from seeing someone talk about things they don't fully understand. Also kind of awkward to see things phrased as if I'm not here.Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-08, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
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2013-04-08, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
And again, what gives you the impression that every single female olympian has suffered from a severe lack of exercise during childhood?
That is not gender dysphoria. You are not citing gender dysphoria...
I'm not seeing any specific evidence for your other points.
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2013-04-08, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
- Gender
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Current childrearing mores, obviously. I highly doubt any Olympian woman was raised as a boy. Even the most athletically inclined parents rear their children differently according to gender.
It is a touchy subject, with good reason, so if you want our conversation to continue, send me a PM. If not, I will consider your argument dropped.
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2013-04-08, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
No, they don't. That's exactly my point. The culture-only perspective on gender differences would predict the non-existence of TS individuals in such societies. Given that they nonetheless exist, I believe this refutes the culture-only hypothesis on gender differences.
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2013-04-08, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Can we please drop this topic? It's not contributing, it's biological determinism again, and it's thoroughly unpleasant.
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-08, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Not at all... the difference between you/I and a cat is a large number of orders of magnitude bigger than the difference we're talking about in this discussion, i.e. between you/I and our respective ancestors (many are certainly the same) some 40-100 generations ago.
Genetically, between the following trio: a modern human, his direct caveman ancestor, and a cat, two are super close and one is incredibly far away. The fact that all lifeforms on this planet share a big part of their genes (which is absolutely not surprising) is a total red herring in this discussion, shame on you for even thinking about bringing it up...
Also, the answer's yes, by the way. Different cultures have genetical differences, and the same culture in different periods of time have genetical differences. That's the entire point of epigenetics, genetic plasticity and polymorphisms.
Genetics does not dictate behaviour in species capable of developing culture.
Nobody's saying you invented it. My point of content is your determinism. You seem to imply that because something has been, or is, then it must be.
OK, it's been interesting, and I'm not leaving this thread forever, but I'm off for the night. My gf and I just played heads or tails to decide which one of us was going to breastfeed the baby tonight, and it fell on me, so duty time.
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