OOTS #946 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey Watcher]

So, Durkon and Durkula are distinct entities after all. Definitely like that he serves Hel. Glad she's getting more screentime than as the silly one-panel joke (which, in retrospect, was a brilliant way to introduce her character such that we just accepted her as part of the strip's universe).

Also, did Durkula exist before the Malack fight? Since the Durkon we all know and love is in there, helpless but apparently uncorrupted, I find myself wondering about the metaphysics involved. Was Durkula some entity of Hel that was granted access to the world when a new Dwarven vampire came into existence? (The "birthed in my hall" line would seem to support this.) Is he something that formed around Durkon as part of the vampirization process? (Which might make Hel's language here a bit more figurative.)

Also, this recolors my view on Malack's line about "Raising me is just a complicated way of destroying the person I am now." Was the living Lizardfolk's mind/spirit still... in existence? Or had 200 years of servitude finally worn it away until only the vampire remained? Did he finally get to go to the afterlife he deserved?

Hoping very much we get some more information on these questions in the next arc.

Also, very interested to see what angle Hel's going to play in the whole Gate nonsense. She seems to have her own ideas about how that should play out.

[Porthos]

BOOOOOOO.

Really not a fan of the last half of this strip. All kinds of character conflict and character growth opportunities wasted, now that this is "not really Durkon".

The character growth could come about as Durkon comes to grips with what 'he' did as Durkula, you know.

Lots and lots of room for drama and hijinks there.

Or, indeed, Durkon trying to 'break free'.

This is just the beginning. Best not to judge too harshly until we see where it goes.

[Gift Jeraff]

*sees new strip title* Oh, we're going to see more of the inside of the Rift, I guess?
*sees name of news update before clicking on the new strip* Ohhhh!
*reads new strip* Oh. Oh damn.

Told you this was going to come back to bite Roy.

[Everyl]

Actually, this gives us more reason not to stake the vampire. That should kill both. The Vampire must be raised first, which will not be easy with those vampire powers getting in the way.

Staking the vampire is a prerequisite to raising Durkon. Resurrection doesn't work on undead; the undead must be destroyed first. Staking is the only standard way to destroy a vampire that doesn't also destroy the remains. Resurrection without remains means True Resurrection, which ups the level of the friendly cleric they need to find significantly.

...

Incidental, wild speculation: Maybe Hilgya will be the one to raise real-Durkon?

[Angel Bob]

Really not a fan of the last half of this strip. All kinds of character conflict and character growth opportunities wasted, now that this is "not really Durkon".

...

Let me clarify though: I in no way think Rich is "doing it wrong", I fully recognize and respect that it's his story to tell as he wishes, etc. It's unfortunate that I even have to say that, but I am anyway. In case it isn't obvious, I'm a huge fan of the story and wouldn't have such a visceral reaction to this character choice if I weren't. I was just looking forward to seeing Durkon react and grow as a character and am sorry we won't be seeing that. I'm not anticipating that Durkula as a plotline will take its place but well, let's see how the next book goes.

Ah, yes. Thank you for giving a voice to the part of me that didn't like this latest revelation. I was so dearly looking forward to seeing "Durkon, but evil", and instead we have "evil, but not Durkon". Hmph. Though I suppose there's still a chance of interesting character development for Durkon, but it'll probably take the form of angst and frustration.

That can't be good. Also, really people. You thought that Durkula was actually Durkon and hadn't changed at all?

I don't think anybody seriously thought that "Durkula was actually Durkon and hadn't changed at all". I, for one, thought that "Durkula" was actually Durkon, but had changed significantly. Please try to understand dissenters before ridiculing them.

[Porthos]

So, Durkon and Durkula are distinct entities after all. Definitely like that he serves Hel. Glad she's getting more screentime than as the silly one-panel joke (which, in retrospect, was a brilliant way to introduce her character such that we just accepted her as part of the strip's universe).

Also, did Durkula exist before the Malack fight? Since the Durkon we all know and love is in there, helpless but apparently uncorrupted, I find myself wondering about the metaphysics involved. Was Durkula some entity of Hel that was granted access to the world when a new Dwarven vampire came into existence? (The "birthed in my hall" line would seem to support this.) Is he something that formed around Durkon as part of the vampirization process? (Which might make Hel's language here a bit more figurative.)

IIRC what hamishspence has had to say about this, Libris Mortis has a 'malign spirit' move in when someone is vamped. Seems close enough to what happened here.

Or Rich saw too many Buffy episodes back in the day. Take your pick.

[Aron Times]

My theory on OotS vampires: Western vampires and Northern vampires work differently. Malack, a western vampire, seemed to be under the impression that Durkon would be back to his old self once freed. If Malack were possessed by a foreign spirit and not actually himself, he would know from experience that Durkon wouldn't be the same person.

Therefore, Western vampires, who are under Nergal's portfolio, are the same person as their living selves. Northern/Dwarven vampires, who are under Hel's portfolio, are like Buffy vampires, possessed by an evil spirit.

[Haar]

And once again, my powers of prediction have ultimately proven completely useless.

Spoiler

Show

Despite reassurances to the contrary earlier on, it seems the overseer of death, in this case, really is evil. I wonder if Malack's train of thought on the subject was widely shared, or if he was deluding himself to thinking it wasn't "evil".

[Voidhawk]

Belkar was right, Roy was wrong.

You stake the vampire. Roy still held out hope for Durkon, but Durkon is gone. Well, he's trapped in some other plane while vampire Durkon uses his body. But Belkar was right. Gang-rush and stake him.

This is such a common narrative tool: the crazy chaotic murderer is the Cassandra. He knows the danger, but because he's a crazy chaotic murderer, nobody listens to him.

Durkon's gonna wreak havoc in the dwarven homeland. I hope that Belkar's exit involves destroying the vampire.

Durkon died to save Belkar. Belkar dies to save and/or kill Durkon. Calling it now.

[Commander672]

Don't get too close,
it's dark inside.
It's where my Durkon hides!
It's where my Durkon hides!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[ts20fan]

Wow. That was... unexpected to say the least.

[Porthos]

My theory on OotS vampires: Western vampires and Northern vampires work differently. Malack, a western vampire, seemed to be under the impression that Durkon would be back to his old self once freed. If Malack were possessed by a foreign spirit and not actually himself, he would know from experience that Durkon wouldn't be the same person.

Therefore, Western vampires, who are under Nergal's portfolio, are the same person as their living selves. Northern/Dwarven vampires, who are under Hel's portfolio, are like Buffy vampires, possessed by an evil spirit.

Alternatively, the 'confusion' could be a spirit getting used to the mortal world. She might not be a spirit, but even Celia mentioned the problems getting used to the Prime.

[MrSpkr]

All I can think to say is - -

44 DAYS UNTIL THE NEXT OOTS???!?!?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[Kalaska'Agathas]

On people who were good who get Vamp'd, as it was said before:

"You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him." — Giles, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Durkulus: "Okay, Roy, let's deal with this. Durkon was an excruciating loser who couldn't even say 'the' correctly. Look at me, I'm a new man!"

[Keltest]

And once again, my powers of prediction have ultimately proven completely useless.

Spoiler

Show

Despite reassurances to the contrary earlier on, it seems the overseer of death, in this case, really is evil. I wonder if Malack's train of thought on the subject was widely shared, or if he was deluding himself to thinking it wasn't "evil".

Hel's domain is specific enough (Dwarves who died of non-liver diseases that they didn't acquire as a consequence of heroics) that calling her a "goddess of death" isn't especially accurate. Nergal appears to be a much more "generic" god of death, like Kelemvor from forgotten realms. Judge, not jury.

[JennTora]

That can't be good. Also, really people. You thought that Durkula was actually Durkon and hadn't changed at all?

I didn't expect that he was going to be some silly buffy style vampire is all. Not that I'm expecting it to be all lame and boring like buffy vampires this is ORder of the Stick and not Buffy, after all.

The thought that kept running through my head was that Durkon turned evil because he thought vampires were automatically evil. It was either that or this honestly, since I can't really stand the thought of "Vampires just become evil for no reason."

and I thought the first because I thought this was supposed to be character development for Durkon, but I guess that's going to come later.

This also raises the question of why Malack even considered there to be a true connection between himself and that "ignorant barbarian shaman" at all, since he's not even the same soul if this applies to all vampires. The way he spoke sounded as if he were a 90 year old describing himself at five years old. This proves Durkula isn't Durkon, but it raises a lot more questions than it answered.

[Mauve Shirt]

I had hoped. But now I suspect Belkar's the dwarven homeland's only hope.

[kenlund]

This answers the question I had about where Durkula was getting his spells. I figured Thor wouldn't be providing the spells any longer .... to an undead vampire anyways. But, I wanted Durkula to be Durkon so badly. But I guess the speech Redcloak gave Tsukiko in #830 said it all. The undead aren't people anymore....bits of skin and bone and dark energy.

[Deremir]

so... im assuming that the theory that durkon is going to get raised from vampire form and then go to the dwarf homelands to live happily ever after has already been said?

also while im here, has oots been updated to pathfinder? cuz i dont remember cantrips in d&d

[Passive Pete]

DAMN. First of all, I never expected any of the other Northern Gods to get involved. . .

THANK YOU for the twist, O Might Giant! I was waiting and waiting for something just like this! I'm gonna be shaking for the next month and a half, worrying about Durkon. I feel so bad for him!

[Porthos]

*looks over at Twitter*

Damn, it's blowing up over there right now. I've never seen this amount of reponses nor so quickly on one of his tweets.

They're almost as GAHGAHAGHGAH as we are.

Well done Rich. You've certainly got us talking.

[ellindsey]

Nice minor detail: Julio flying off into the sunset on a flying carpet in the distance on the first panel.

[Keltest]

so... im assuming that the theory that durkon is going to get raised from vampire form and then go to the dwarf homelands to live happily ever after has already been said?

also while im here, has oots been updated to pathfinder? cuz i dont remember cantrips in d&d

cantrips have existed since at least "Unearthed Arcana" for AD&D 1.0. I don't know if they have been in every version since, but they have definitely been a thing for a long while.

[Tathum]

And only a beautiful priestess of Loki bearing their infant child can give Durkon the inner will to break free.

[Porthos]

also while im here, has oots been updated to pathfinder? cuz i dont remember cantrips in d&d

Nope. Still 3.5e. And cantrips have been a thing in D&D since at least 2e. Can't recall if they were in 1e.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wow
...
I just want to say, this book has been an amazing one, possibly my favorite so far. The art, the characters, the jokes, all of it was great. Thank you so much, Giant.

Now, as for the actual strip. No one has mention this yet, but I think that it is interesting how Vaarsuvius is Wormhole-proofing the Mechane. I feel sorry for Roy, trying to recover from the harrowing events of today. And,
Holy cow, what happened to Durkon!
Well, it looks like I was wrong. However, the last panel makes me feel like there is still hope! Go Durkon!

[ti'esar]

Dammit, wrong on another vampire theory.

[GideonWells]

Skimmed the five pages, apologies if I missed it in all the Durkon spec, but what is that thing in the top right corner of frame 1? It looks like the Snarl, but it is high up in the air. Is the Azure breach, if it happened there too, that big to be visible from this far?

[Komatik]

Buffyverse it is, then.

But the Buffy camp still had no damn proof

[MrMercury]

My theory on OotS vampires: Western vampires and Northern vampires work differently. Malack, a western vampire, seemed to be under the impression that Durkon would be back to his old self once freed. If Malack were possessed by a foreign spirit and not actually himself, he would know from experience that Durkon wouldn't be the same person.

Therefore, Western vampires, who are under Nergal's portfolio, are the same person as their living selves. Northern/Dwarven vampires, who are under Hel's portfolio, are like Buffy vampires, possessed by an evil spirit.

Exactly, I think Malack and Durkula are different types of vampire, since Durkula seems fully aware that Durkon is still there, whereas Malack seemed to think Durkon would be the same or similar person afterwards, which he would not think if he knew that he kept the lizardtribesman in servitude.

All I can think to say is - -

44 DAYS UNTIL THE NEXT OOTS???!?!?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

That's not *really* that long
*ducks and hides*

Anyways, great strip!
Have a wonderful vacation!
I wonder if the high priest of Thor will have a confrontation with Durkula and know it's not Durkon? That's going to be my wild theory
Either that, or I'm calling Belkar kills Durkula to pay back the debt he owes Durkon for him dying to save him, and may die in the process (although Durkon would probably revive him- unless Belkar gets completely vaporised)
I wonder if Belkars alignment will eventually change?