Ranger vs. Wizard

[squiggit]

I banned Mystic Ranger because Mystic Ranger is not an argument in a discussion about Ranger against Paladin, because for all intents and purposes, Mystic Ranger is a Wizard Variant.

So the ranger that trades in most of his class to become a wizard/druid is too far from the core ranger to count but the paladin that trades in most of his class to become a wizard/bard is fine?

I'm confused.

[toapat]

*Snip*

Ive been refferencing, primarily, this topic. The only real Rules grey area he uses involves Battle blessing.

Paladin domains and Sword of Celestia are in later issues of Dragon. I am not spending an hour dredging the Crystal Keep Index to find the specific issues.

What Spellshatter is mutually exclusive with is not, under any circumstances, superior to having Greater Dispel magic on a stick 5/day, and its not mutually exclusive with anything i listed.

So the ranger that trades in most of his class to become a wizard/druid is too far from the core ranger to count but the paladin that trades in most of his class to become a wizard/bard is fine?

I'm confused.

A-Game paladin still relies on being a paladin. It wants that high cha, it still casts Paladin spells, but it intersperses them with wizard spells, it uses DS (a Paladin ACF that has no equivalent anywhere), it only uses From Smite to Song because its more reliable then smiting. Paladin still has mass buffs native to itself that they use. Functionally, this makes them look alot like a bard. That is because they already had or were intended to have the functionality of one without the bard abilities.

the Mystic Wildshape Ranger doesnt attempt to be a ranger, Sword of the Arcane Order defines that class's Entire existence. The spells designed for ranger? Dont work with Mystic Ranger, Its all about bow combat, and you are playing a class who has effectively thrown out their entire native structure for, again, being a heavily modified wizard. The line is specifically the Mystic Variant, SotAO and Wildshape are fine, but the point is, taken as far as they can, Ranger, while staying Ranger, does not compete with paladin. When you cross that line, and take a standardly optimized Mystic ranger, That ranger competes at T2 because its not a mundane or gish.

[Captnq]

So the ranger that trades in most of his class to become a wizard/druid is too far from the core ranger to count but the paladin that trades in most of his class to become a wizard/bard is fine?

I'm confused.

Allow me to explain:

What is a Mystic Ranger?

A ranger is a class that is supposed to be the specialist. He specializes in killing one type of critter. He’s that critter’s worst nightmare, supposedly. As it turns out, being a specialist at hurting people makes you a fairly lousy member of the party. While rangers look cool, a straight up fighter spending feats the right way can usually kill anything much faster then a ranger can kill his one specific critter.

Then came the Mystic Ranger Variant Class.

And now you have a ranger who is not as effective at combat, but SLIGHTLY more effective at magic and still not as good at killing something as a fighter or a wizard.

That said, it sure is fun.

Seriously. It’s actually got quite a bit of punch between 6th and 10th level. Before that other fighter classes are far superior. After that it quickly gets over shadowed by other spellcasters. But, for that short five level window, boy, can you have some fun. Here’s the summary


Pros:
• Full BAB
• 2 Good Saves
• 6+Int Skill points and a good skill selection
• Bonus feats
• Combines well with Wizard for superior spell selection.
• A wide selection of ACFs.

Cons:
• Armor and shield goes out the window.
• Melee combat difficult to optimize.
• Ultra MAD.
• Many class features come too late to be useful.
• After 10th level spellcasting is neutered.

Now before we go any further, we will have to examine the main lynch pin of the more popular mystic ranger builds. The feat Sword of the arcane order

SWORD OF THE ARCANE ORDER [General]

Spoiler

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- Champions of Valor (3.5)
Description: Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic.
Prerequisites: Paladin 4th of Azuth or Mystra, or ranger 4th of Mystra; member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire , the Order of the Shooting Star, or the Swords of the High One.
Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell’s level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard). These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character’s spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook; see Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks, page 178 of the Player’s Handbook, for details). If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.
Special: Azuth has a paladin order called the Swords of the High One, Mystra has a paladin order called the Knights of the Mystic Fire and a closely allied group of rangers called the Order of the Shooting Star. Members of all three of these groups can select this feat as long as they are at least 4th level in their respective order’s primary class.

Also important is the part from the feat summary table in Champions of Valor. “Use paladin or ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells that you know; add paladin and ranger class levels to your wizard level to determine your wizard caster level.” (Emphasis is the editor’s)

Problem #1
Does This Feat Give You Access To Wizard Spells?
Now, at first glance, the answer would seem obvious. If you can memorize wizard spells, you clearly have access to the spell list. This would be the RAW reading of the feat. It’s poorly worded, but clearly, you can read the spells from other spellbooks, so you must be able to cast them, ergo, you have access to the wizard spell list.
That’s why I included the section from the feat summary table. The feat summary has additional words the feat itself does not, “…wizard spells that you know.” Now this would imply that the intention of the feat was to allow you to use the wizard spell list that you get from a level of wizard and memorize those spells in your ranger spell slots.
However, information under the feat summary table is not valid. WotC has specifically stated that only the information written under a specific feat pertains to that feat. The information from the table is informative, but circumstantial and cannot be used in game. So we have the problem of which way to read it. Does it give a ranger access to the wizard spell list, or must he take at least one level of wizard to have access to the spells so he can have access to the list, and thus memorize wizard spells in his ranger spell slots.
If it is the first way (RAW), then a level of wizard is not needed. You can learn any wizard spell, use magic items that require access to the wizard spell list, and all the other perks that go with it. If it is the second way (RAI), then you need to buy at least one level of wizard to use this feat, or it is worthless. However, once you have that level, you do not need to buy any more levels.
For example, if you were a mystic ranger 4th/wizard 1st, then you can memorize second level wizard spells in your 2nd level mystic ranger spell slots, without being a 3rd level wizard. Once you have the first level of wizard you “know” all spells on the list. You just need to get a copy in a spellbook. Once you have a copy, you can memorize it.
Which one is correct? That is up to your DM to choose. It could go either way, but the editor has a leaning towards the second (RAI) interpretation. The reason will be evident in the answer to the next question.

Problem #2
Are Wizards Spells Cast From Ranger Slots Arcane Or Divine?
Rangers are divine spellcasters. Wizards are arcane spellcasters. If you have a wizard spell in an ranger spell slot, which one it is? I believe the answer depends on if you think the ranger needs to take a level of wizard to have access to wizard spells.
If you believe the ranger does not need to take a level of wizard, then effectively you are giving the mystic ranger access to the wizard spell list. This means that despite the fact that the spell requires you to have intelligence to cast the spell, you are still just casting the spell using ranger spell slots. Ergo, the spell has to be divine.
If you believe that the ranger has to take a level of wizard, then effectively the ranger is loaning spell slots to the wizard class. If you are giving spell slots to the wizard class, then the spells remain arcane. As evidence that this is the intent of the feat is that it specifically states that all wizard spells are cast off of intelligence and not off of wisdom.
So what’s the difference? It’s all just semantics, right? Well, the difference in divine verses arcane affects how you build your character. It determines if you need to spend a level on wizard or not. When you qualify for certain PrCs. Weird spell combinations. Frankly, being able to convert wizard spells into divine spells opens up a whole world of opportunity, the least of which is, no arcane spell failure. So which one is it? Again, depends on how you answer the first question.

Problem #3
What Level Should You Be To Take This Feat?
The feat clearly says that you need to be a fourth level ranger to take it. That’s RAW, plain and simple. But why is it fourth? It’s fourth because the base ranger class doesn’t get spells before fourth level. The mystic ranger gets spells at first level. So, you could make a case for being able to learn this feat at first.
Is that balanced? Well, to capitalize on a number of builds, you would have to be a fourth level ranger anyways. So what’s the point? Well, you only get feats at 1st, 3rd and 6th level. So that means that you either need a DM who allows retraining, you need to take endurance at 3rd level and then when you get endurance at 4th level you automatically get to retrain your 3rd level feat, or you have to suck it up and take it at 6th level. Allowing the feat to be available at 1st level makes such feat juggling unnecessary and simplifies things. Talk it over with your DM to determine his preference.

Problem #4
What Gods Should be Allowed For This Feat?
By RAW, you must worship either Mystra and Azuth to get this feat. However, not everyone plays in Forgotten Realms. It is suggested that you allow anyone who worships a god of magic to take this feat.

There is, of course, a way around needing a level of wizard and satisfying a DM who insists that you know the sor/wiz spell list. That would be this feat.

MAGICAL TRAINING [Regional]

Spoiler

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You come from a land where cantrips are taught to all who have the aptitude tolearn magic. Every crafter and artisan, it seems, knows a minor spell or two.
Prerequisites: Int 10 or Cha 10, elf (Evereska or Evermeet) or human (Halruaa or Nimbral).
Benefit: You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard (your choice, so long as you have a score of at least 10 in the ability that controls the spellcasting for that class). You must make this decision when you first take the feat. Thereafter, you have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast. If you choose to cast spells as a sorcerer, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Cha modifier. You know two 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list. If you choose to cast spells as a wizard, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Int modifier. You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/ wizard list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does.
Special: If you already have levels in sorcerer or wizard, increase the number of 0-level spells you can cast per day by three. You may select this feat only as a 1st-level character. You may have only one regional feat.
Editor: So, as you can see, this gives you access to the spellbook without the need for a level in wizard. However, it doesn’t settle if you are casting spells as a divine spellcaster or an arcane spellcaster or both. So if you have approval to take this feat, make sure to confirm with your DM about the Arcane/Divine caster issue before you proceed with character design.

Party Role: The Magic Addict
The magic addict doesn’t have the best spell selection in the world, but he does have the highest caster level in the world. The magic addict depends on a combination of the feats Sword of the Arcane Order and Practiced Spellcaster and how it interacts with certain PrCs.
The first one is the easiest, Mystic Theurge. Once you have Mystic Ranger: 4, Wizard: 1 and SotAO feat, you are casting 2nd level divine and arcane spells. A few skills and you qualify for Mystic Theurge. Each level adds one to mystic ranger and wizard. And with each level, you add 2 total to your wizard caster level, but only one to your ranger caster level. So when you add three levels of Mystic Theurge, you can use Practiced Spellcaster to give yourself +4 levels of caster level for ranger. Which, also adds to your wizard level.
The second PrC is Sublime Chord. Now, you can’t take it before you reach 11th level, unfortunately. The skill requirements simply cannot be gotten around. Plus, you also need bardic music ability. So that means you need to take a level of bard. I’m sure there are other ways, but this is the easiest and it helps with other requirements later. Now sublime chord gives you 4th through 9th level bard and sorcerer spells as a spontaneous arcane spellcaster. You also pick an arcane spellcaster class (wizard) and add it’s caster level to your sublime chord caster level, and vice versa. Now, the problem is, your Sublime Chord spells are based on charisma, so this adds just one more attribute to your list of attributes you must have at a certain level. To really take advantage of Sublime Chord, you need a charisma of 19, a wisdom of 15, and an intelligence of at least 13.
The third PrC is Fochlucan Lyrist. Now, the problem for qualifying for this PrC is figuring out how to gain evasion. Alas, this means picking up non-spell caster levels, most likely. Rogue 2 or Monk 2. Rogue helps with skills and gives you sneak attack. Monk adds to your AC, gives you unarmed strike, and is far better suited for someone who is not using a shield or wearing armor. Alas, this is effectively 2 dead levels for the magic addict. Now, the PrC adds to arcane and divine spell casting class and also adds to your bardic knowledge and bardic music, so it does have some advanatages, depending on your eventual goal.
The fourth PrC is Arcane Hierophant. Alas, to qualify you need to have trackless step. That means being a half-elf or elf and taking wildrunner for one level, being of the bamboo spirit race, or taking three levels in scout or druid. That makes it a bit expensive in optimizing your wizard caster level. That said, it has the perk of ignoring arcane spell failure while wearing light armor. That means you can add armor which is something you couldn’t before. It also adds to wild shape, which is something you’d get if you took three levels of druid Of you can take one level of shapeshifter, which is a vastly superior form of wild shape.. Of course the real perk is that it also adds to one arcane and one divine spellcasting class.
The fifth class is Ultimate Magus. You qualify for this one easily, but you don’t want to take it until after your first level of Sublime Chord. It adds to a spontaneous arcane caster and an arcane caster who prepares from a spellbook. Now, technically, the sublime chord cannot cast 1st level arcane spells. And if you take one level of bard, you can only cast 0-level spells spontaneously. You will have to add to your bard spellcasting level, most likely with mystic theurge, for one level. Then you can add Ultimate magus to Sublime Chord and Wizard. Now while Mystic Theurge adds a total of 20 spell casting “levels”, ultimate magus adds only 17. You “lose” a level at 1st, 4th, and 7th. At that level, you get to pick which class to add it to, Wizard or Sublime Chord. You should always add to Sublime Chord, you will get higher level spells out of it. Now, if you are choosing the ultimate magus route, you may wish to look into metamagic feats to maximize the PrC’s usefulness. I suggest the old standbys of empower and maximize. Extend is also useful, but at that level, your more likely to use an extend metamagic rod.
By using the Fochlucan Lyrist, Arcane Heirophant, Ultimate Magus, and Mystic Theurge, you can add to Mystic Theurge as the divine spellcaster, while also adding to wizard. You should switch to adding to Sublime Chord as soon as possible. Sprinkle in some practiced spellcaster feats here and there and you will see your Caster Level really take off.
Now, there is one combo that you are unlikely to get past your DM, but it’s worth a shot. If you are casting spells with mystic ranger 4, you are casting arcane and divine spells with that class. So, technically, you can add both +1 arcane and +1 divine from Mystic Theurge to mystic ranger. If your DM allows it, a Mystic ranger: 4/Mystic Theurge: 3, is casting 5th level spells at 7th level, two whole levels before a wizard. Even if your DM requires you to take a level in wizard, you’d still get 5th level spells one level before a wizard. The problem is, there is little point in taking mystic ranger past 10th level, as far as spellcasting is concerned. Now it does give you more spells, and it does add to your wizard level, but really, you’d be better putting that level elsewhere, so you can spread it out a bit. So, while this is dang cool, the advantage only lasts for one level, then you start to fall behind.


Mystic Ranger: 1-4 (Mystic Ranger Caster Level:4)
Wizard: 1 (Wizard Caster Level: 5)
Mystic Theurge: 1 (MR/W:6/2[7])
Mystic Theurge: 2 (MR/W:7/2[9])
Mystic Theurge: 3 (MR/W:9/2[11])
Bard: 1
Mystic Theurge: 4 (MR/W/Bard:10/2[12]/2)
Sublime Chord: 1
Ultimate Magus: 1 (MR/W/B/SC:10/2[14]/2/1)
Ultimate Magus: 2 (MR/W/B/SC:10/3[16]/2/2)
Ultimate Magus: 3 (MR/W/B/SC:10/4[18]/2/3)
Ultimate Magus: 4 (MR/W/B/SC:10/4[20]/2/4)
Ultimate Magus: 5 (MR/W/B/SC:10/5[22]/2/5)
Ultimate Magus: 6 (MR/W/B/SC:10/6[24]/2/6)
Ultimate Magus: 7 (MR/W/B/SC:10/6[26]/2/7)

You get the idea.

[animewatcha]

snip

I took a bit of a look now ( will do more later ) because it's late at night for me.

The build is illegal due to confliction between the sub levels. Build is illegal due to not having bardic music specifically. Paladin domains mean no Turn Undead which means no DMM. Sword of Celestia means no special mount aka no Divine Spirit. Spellshatter means no use of anything that requires giving up remove disease. Spellshatter also means no barding. Also, sword of arcane order paladin means no barding.

[Vknight]

So the new argument that is being pushed for is that.

A Ranger with scrolls/rods/wands/whatever. Of Dispel Magic etc. can destroy the buffs on the mage and then go too town.
So somehow the Ranger is too use these items too win the day

So carrying around a lot of magical gear specifically made too counter a mage too fight the mage.
Along with the ability too be good at ranged combat will stomp a mage.
And that the Ranger is the best at these

And somehow the Caster Level of the Ranger/Item in question generally being lower isn't a good argument for why things like that would not work.

So a lot of it is negate all the wizards magical effects and then hit him as hard as you can before he is able too escape/put new buffs up etc.

Also readied actions.

Also the Ranger is going too beat the mage too the draw every time on initiative.
Also their is a feat like manyshot that has no range requirements and can be added into a full attack etc.


And its 3rd/3.5 Edition no Pathfinder.

[animewatcha]

Notice the likely ignoring of fine-print or heck anything that wizard might actually do prior to or during.

[Vknight]

Notice the likely ignoring of fine-print or heck anything that wizard might actually do prior to or during.

Yes keep this in mind, it will help make you understand. He also thinks he's done more research then others

[eggynack]

Also the Ranger is going too beat the mage too the draw every time on initiative.

When did that happen? I'm pretty sure that the facts were indicating the exact opposite of that. If we are assuming mystic ranger, then hummingbird familiar is a thing, and if we're not, then we're still talking about easier access to improved initiative combined with easier access to nerveskitter. It really just feels like most evidence is supporting wizard victory, with the only plausible path for ranger victory being wizard copying. Otherwise, your archery plan can be stopped pretty easily, especially as both competitors apparently know about this fight. You can't have the ranger push all of his resources towards wizard stomping, and then not have the wizard push all of his resources towards ranger stomping, after all. That makes the exact opposite of sense.

[Haldir]

Your Argument is "Ranger has archery" which i pointed Out A-Game Paladin still Matches or Exceeds what ranger can do by virtue of what they are restricted to. Paladin has more, superior tricks.

Strawman much? My argument was that the Ranger had strategic initiative, and I'll give you a goddamned cookie if you can quote me mentioning Ranger archery ever, because I intentionally made no mention of how that strategic initiative would be leveraged. Even if the Paladin wins in ranged damage, he has no way to make that worth anything against the Ranger. Power you can't use is no power at all.

4th Level Divination renders Spot and Listen irrelevent? I'm fairly certain Ranger gets access to all the same divination blocking measures a wizard gets, no? Or is Nondetection native on the Ranger list not enough?

Oh! More arguments about how you get cool damage stuff. Charging something you can't find sounds like a great strategy! Lucky for me I've got plenty of Skillpoints for Knowledge Devotion if I were to be so crass as to require dealing damage at any point.

Summons and companions? Psh. You don't want to go down that road with someone who has Knowledge (Nature), Track, and Wild Empathy as native features, ontop of that sweet Urban Companion which is essentially a free Familiar. Paladins get a single silly summon, whereas a Ranger potentially gets every animal monster in any MM if he wants to.

Getting a nice free magic weapon, sweet, except any weapon a Ranger holds can be Bane against a favored enemy. Oh, and Rangers can take organizations as Favored Enemies too, as an optional rule (Cityscape or CmpScound). Arrogant overbearing zealots who try to use muscle to force me to act like them sounds like a good one. Maybe my Ranger hunts Paladins.

The Paladin has nothing that a Ranger doesn't have, except an arbitrary moral code.

[Gwendol]

There is a reason why even humans on Earth, who have very little magic, have stopped using melee combat against powerful ranged attacks. Given that the Ranger absolutely has a better standard spell list than the Paladin, and can be a better spellcaster than the Paladin with optimization, I am starting to feel like you're taking this "Paladin is stronger than Ranger" April fool's thing you did a little too far.

"Humans on Earth" isn't really a yardstick for performance in 3.5 D&D.

Barring Mystic Ranger, how is the ranger a better spellcaster? Please give me the breakdown.

As for stronger, it is you who keep saying the paladin will be destroyed by a well-built ranger, I'm still in doubt of that. The ranger is skillfull and his ability to hide and spot are an asset. Depending on the game and the party though, those skills can be niche or immensly useful. I think the party buffing and remote healing, etc, the paladin offers are more generally useful, but YMMV.

[Gwendol]

The Paladin has nothing that a Ranger doesn't have, except an arbitrary moral code.

Detect evil, Aura of Courage, Divine Grace.

[Snowbluff]

Don't forget Turn Undead. I like Turn Undead.

A Ranger with scrolls/rods/wands/whatever. Of Dispel Magic etc. can destroy the buffs on the mage and then go too town.
So somehow the Ranger is too use these items too win the day

Wizard wins init (or acts in the surprise round with Shapechange, Foresight, etc), disjunctions the scrolls, targeting a crummy will save.
Ranger wins init, has a chance to has a chance to dispel a spell, rolling for each one. And the wizard gets to keep his items. :l
So carrying around a lot of magical gear specifically made too counter a mage too fight the mage.

And its 3rd/3.5 Edition no Pathfinder.

This ranger is screwed.

[toapat]

I took a bit of a look now ( will do more later ) because it's late at night for me.

The build is illegal due to confliction between the sub levels. Build is illegal due to not having bardic music specifically. Paladin domains mean no Turn Undead which means no DMM. Sword of Celestia means no special mount aka no Divine Spirit. Spellshatter means no use of anything that requires giving up remove disease. Spellshatter also means no barding. Also, sword of arcane order paladin means no barding.

There are no rules that say every single character is monotheistic. A paladin of Milil and Mystra is technically non-conflicting, but only so long as its not a Paladin of Tyranny.

Spellshatter removes remove disease with an equal progression of itself, it may bast more often but its the same thing. Inspire greatness would replace the 2-5th charges but even a single use of a spell you cant prepare is superior to not having it at all. However since Inspire Competence is needed its not taken at all.

The alternatives to the mount were to point out just how much paladin has in that slot.

The only "Legitimate" issue is Dragonfire Inspiration's pre-requisite. I forgot A-Game doesnt actually take that. My appologies.

Strawman much? My argument was that the Ranger had strategic initiative, and I'll give you a goddamned cookie if you can quote me mentioning Ranger archery ever, because I intentionally made no mention of how that strategic initiative would be leveraged. Even if the Paladin wins in ranged damage, he has no way to make that worth anything against the Ranger. Power you can't use is no power at all.

4th Level Divination renders Spot and Listen irrelevent? I'm fairly certain Ranger gets access to all the same divination blocking measures a wizard gets, no? Or is Nondetection native on the Ranger list not enough?

Oh! More arguments about how you get cool damage stuff. Charging something you can't find sounds like a great strategy! Lucky for me I've got plenty of Skillpoints for Knowledge Devotion if I were to be so crass as to require dealing damage at any point.

Summons and companions? Psh. You don't want to go down that road with someone who has Knowledge (Nature), Track, and Wild Empathy as native features, ontop of that sweet Urban Companion which is essentially a free Familiar. Paladins get a single silly summon, whereas a Ranger potentially gets every animal monster in any MM if he wants to.

Getting a nice free magic weapon, sweet, except any weapon a Ranger holds can be Bane against a favored enemy. Oh, and Rangers can take organizations as Favored Enemies too, as an optional rule (Cityscape or CmpScound). Arrogant overbearing zealots who try to use muscle to force me to act like them sounds like a good one. Maybe my Ranger hunts Paladins.

The Paladin has nothing that a Ranger doesn't have, except an arbitrary moral code.

1: You never said in any way that the Ranger was superior. Everything they have, Paladin has access to except for a familiar and 5th or higher spellslots. And mystic Ranger doesnt count

2: Counter Divinations are much higher level then the divinations themselves, higher then 4th level at any rate.

3: Again, you are saying things, not proving

4: You are claiming that a ranger has good summons. No. Bubs the Commoner has good summons, ranger has mooks. The familiar is loosing you the best ally ranger gets one on one AND you dont have worthwhile DCs, your summon spells conjure tissuepaper, and Knowledge has no applicable uses outside of identification in the rules.If you are talking about WIild Empathy diplomancy, still doesnt work because everything worthwhile is either Engineered (Battle Titan) or Natively Hostile (Dire anything)

5: Your ranger wouldnt be alive for very long if he has Knights of the Mystic Fire on his hated enemy list. having the LG/CG Happy go lucky Paladin of Mystra+Milil hunting you is nothing compared to what the LE Paladin of Mystra will do to you, And theres no way in hell you have SotAO as a feat if you picked Knights of the Mystic Fire, because a ranger has to be a member of the Order of Shooting Stars to get SotAO, and thats a subdivision of the KoMF.

[dextercorvia]

Please, excuse me for my ignorance, but why he have Simple Weapon Proficiency instead Wizard Weapon Proficiency, and since when IUS is "metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery"

Dunno on simple weapon prof, but improved unarmed can be gotten for the fighter bonus feat sub in UA ( IIRC? ). You give up scribe scroll and wizard bonus feats to pick up fighter bonus feats as wizard level rate. Gotta qualify for feat.

Exactly. I swapped Scribe Scroll for Improved Unarmed Strike using the UA Variant. Then I took Combat Reflexes as my level 1 feat. I have two flaws which got my Stand Still, and Simple Weapon Proficiencies(as a feat).

I used SWP since I needed a reach weapon, and a close quarters weapon. (Actually I never used the close quarters weapon, but I was prepared.) You need a BAB of +1 to take EWP-Spiked Chain, and armor spikes weren't really an option. So, I opted for a reach weapon, and Unarmed Strike if they got close. Wizards, like monks, aren't proficient with their unarmed strikes, so SWP got me both with one feat.

[Talya]

• Combines well with Wizard for superior spell selection.

Unnecessary. Assuming you houserule that they can't just start scribing into any spellbook that they buy, using a feat for magical training is better than wasting a whole level.

• Armor and shield goes out the window.

Armor does not. Wizard/sorcerer spells you cast from your divine slots using sword of the arcane order are still divine spells, and do not suffer from arcane spell failure.
Rangers never used shields anyway.

• Melee combat difficult to optimize.

It's as difficult as taking the wildshape ACF. As the Mystic ranger source is far more obscure than the wildshape ranger variant (which is SRD), i think if you can manage one, you can manage the other.

Now, you try to address this in your subpoints, but they're nothing more than your opinion, and I disagree with all of them. The spell has nothing to do with multiclassing ranger and wizard, apart from the tertiary effect of caster level mixing. RAW is also RAI here, SotAO it simply allows you to memorize wizard spells you have access to from a spellbook into your ranger spell slots. They are still divine spells (casting from INT doesn't matter - archivist also uses INT), as the feat doesn't say otherwise. I see nothing to indicate difference in RAI from RAW here.

One thing I've found with Mystic Ranger - SotAO goes unused a lot, even though I'm playing an archer-mystic ranger who has it. The reason? The accellerated spell progression is great, but you're still getting access to wizard spells at a sorcerer progression rate for 10 levels, and not really pulling ahead of anybody else. The real gems here are the higher level ranger spells. With splatbook access, there are some incredlbe Level 3&4 ranger spells, that are intended for late game use, that come online quite early using mystic ranger.

[toapat]

Unnecessary. Assuming you houserule that they can't just start scribing into any spellbook that they buy, using a feat for magical training is better than wasting a whole level.

technically, RAW, it has to be a Wizard's spellbook, so even Magical Training doesnt work.

I honestly dont see any DM enforcing that, and i can see the KoMF having wizards paid to have a high Forgery skill and scribing books for the members of the order.

[Talya]

Magical training gives you a wizard spellbook.

By RAW, so does 15gp, however. I believe even magical training is entirely unnecessary. Your spellcraft skill is the lone requirement for scribing spells into a spellbook.

[dextercorvia]

technically, RAW, it has to be a Wizard's spellbook, so even Magical Training doesnt work.

I honestly dont see any DM enforcing that, and i can see the KoMF having wizards paid to have a high Forgery skill and scribing books for the members of the order.

The spellbook is the least of your worries. You can prepare from a "borrowed" spellbook. So, you spend a little WBL getting Wizards to make copies of their spellbook. That isn't much of a hindrance.

Edit: And no, the RAW is that it has to be a Wizard spell prepared from a spellbook, not prepared from a Wizard's spellbook. You could, in theorey use a WuJen's or Chameleon's Spellbook, so long as the spell was on the Wizard list.

[CombatOwl]

Good point, but read the surprise round rules, please. You can't full attack in the surprise round. Without Master hunter, which requires having Favored Enemy (no freebooters), the ranger won't down the wizard in a singular hit.

A) If you're playing a guide, you're not playing a freebooter. Remember; the ranger does not require any damage boosts from his class abilities to rocket tag that wizard. None of the math I did even included favored enemy bonuses.

B) This is the same situation as the Infiltrator, where it was noted that archetypes which replace class features may include abilities that also meet the qualifications for later abilities. It depends on the wording of the ability, and there is no reason whatsoever to think that master hunter would not apply to the target of a freebooter's bane, as would quarry. But again, even if we ignore that, this wouldn't turn out well for the wizard.

C) Alright, let's think about this for a moment. The wizard is a diviner, so he knows something is up. He doesn't necessarily know what's going on. He gets to act in the surprise round, but he doesn't know what he needs to act against. So the stealthed ranger readies an action. The wizard, being a wizard, thinks "danger!" and casts either a teleportation spell or some sort of divination to figure out what's going on. Note; his simulacrum does not get to act in the surprise round. The ranger's readied action goes off, which was to attack the wizard if he tried to cast something. The wizard then has to make (on average) a DC 41 + Spell Level concentration check. Now, this is a Pathfinder concentration check, so he only gets his level and stat bonus to the roll. We'll give the wizard a 30 int for the same reasons the ranger has a 30 strength, giving him a +30 to the check. So he has a 45% or less chance of getting that spell off--45% only if he is doing a 0th level spell, which seems unlikely. Even if he's only using a 5th level spell (say, teleport), that's only a 20% chance of making it work. Now we get to the first round of combat. The ranger wins initiative again, and plugs the wizard before that solar gets its shield other off. Now, maybe that wizard is rolling around with his solar holding a shield other on him all the time--possible by the rules--but now you're getting into a very specific sort of counter to this ranger. That's a far cry from the notion that wizards are just so much more powerful than rangers that to suggest that either could rocket tag the other at level 20 is foolish nonsense. If that wizard isn't a diviner, or picks something that doesn't have shield other, he's going to get rocket tagged in the above scenario. By a lone ranger with a (by 20th level standards) crappy bow, who isn't even counting large portions of his class features.

Also, the ranger could just precede his attack by shouting "Hail there, traveler!" as loudly as possible and taking surprise rounds out of the equation. You only get to act in the surprise round if there is a surprise round, and the ranger making everyone aware of his presence eliminates the surprise round entirely. The diviner ability just lets you always count as aware in surprise rounds, it doesn't guarantee a surprise round. Nothing about the ranger's ability to one-shot the wizard in a full round requires him to be hidden. The only thing that spoils it is the theoretical possibility that the wizard might have a simulacrum with shield other--which is getting rather too specific to argue that the contest is inherently in the wizard's favor.

[quote]Special senses. See below. Also, the similacrum text allows for a level 20 resulting creature (20 CL x2 max target HD, cut the result in half).

The wizard would have been better off using himself as a simulacrum. At least with that there is a 50% chance that the ranger would rocket tag the wrong target.

Solar has regeneration, and can cast shield other. The wizard takes half damage. Hour/level. That's even if they lose half of their casting.

You're getting into an awful lot of "ifs" to argue that the wizard is so superior that the contest is laughable.

Pseudodragons have blindsense, and are cheap as dirt.

Please, they don't have blind-sense at hundreds of feet.

Faerie Dragons simulacrum casts as a third level sorcerer. They're really cheap, too.

Third level sorcerer isn't going to change that contest. The DCs are laughable for a 20th level character and the awful no-save-and-sucks at low level were taken out of Pathfinder. Best he could do is put invisibility on the wizard, but the simulacrum gets its own initiative so that doesn't matter.

The only simulacrum you've mentioned that would prevent the wizard from being killed in one round is the solar having shield other up. Which is now bringing us into some absurdly specific circumstances. Must be a diviner with a solar simulacrum holding shield other up all the time, etc. Whereas the ranger must be... a guide who learned archery. Might as well just assume the ranger has a [wizard's race] bane bow with [wizard's race] greater slaying arrows. I mean, even with shield other that wizard dies to 910 damage. Even if he makes every save he'd take 910 damage. With shield other up, that would kill both the wizard and the solar. 7 greater slaying arrows of a humanoid type is only 28,000. Totally in the price range for a 20th level ranger.

Uh, duh and or hello! The point is the feat tax for running an archer can really hurt sometimes. You're suckered into the cookie cutter feats without gaining any real gems in return.

Except having one of the highest damage outputs in the game, short of charging vital striking cavaliers with a lance. Ranger happens to lower the feat tax by quite a lot.

Hammer the gap isn't particularly impressive. Assuming every hit in full attack hit with haste and rapid shot, you have +15 damage.

One feat with no penalty for an extra +15 damage per round? That's quite feat efficient.

With a decent knowledge devotion (+2 damage with a weepy 16), you could get 12 damage, not to mention the bonus to hit. It comes online much earlier without a hard BAB requirement. The skill points hurt unless you're int based, but you should have points in knowledge for the things you fight.

More investment for a weaker bonus. That's not efficient.

For the less intelligent, Law Devotion would aid greatly in for a fight. I'm more of a Trickery Devotion or Travel Devotion guy, myself. I like having other things to do other than "I attack."

Feats are for establishing how you attack.

[toapat]

The spellbook is the least of your worries. You can prepare from a "borrowed" spellbook. So, you spend a little WBL getting Wizards to make copies of their spellbook. That isn't much of a hindrance.

i was thinking that the forgery check was to write it as the paladin/Rangers's spellbook.

granted, just keeping the DCs for upto 4th level spell inscription is much easier and cheaper.

*Snip*

You are trying to debate optimization against one of the best people at it on this forum. you have already lost.

[Talya]

Edit: And no, the RAW is that it has to be a Wizard spell prepared from a spellbook, not prepared from a Wizard's spellbook. You could, in theorey use a WuJen's or Chameleon's Spellbook, so long as the spell was on the Wizard list.

Besides, "Spellbook, Wizard's" is the name of the item, purchasable for 15gp. It has nothing directly to do with the class, except that Wizards use them.

[CombatOwl]

You are trying to debate optimization against one of the best people at it on this forum. you have already lost.

Nothing he's proposed so far is beyond the capabilities of an archery ranger to solo. Not even a particularly well optimized archery ranger. But you're right, it's probably pointless. I'm sure there is some absurdly specific combination of feats, simulacrums, and class abilities that could theoretically be taken that will allow the wizard to flee the encounter, and so therefore all of that is, of course, the only rational choice that any wizard is likely to make.

[Talya]

You know, Snowbluff knows his stuff, but he's not always right.

He may be right here, I'm not really paying attention. I just object to the suggestion that if one is debating a master, they might as well shut up, because they've already lost.

Someday, someone might even out-Tippy Tippy.

[toapat]

Nothing he's proposed so far is beyond the capabilities of an archery ranger to solo. Not even a particularly well optimized archery ranger. But you're right, it's probably pointless. I'm sure there is some absurdly specific combination of feats, simulacrums, and class abilities that could theoretically be taken that will allow the wizard to flee the encounter, and so therefore all of that is, of course, the only rational choice that any wizard is likely to make.

Archery has 2 paths: Swift Hunter, and Arcane Permafrost Archer. Swift Hunter is Innately DEAD vs the wizard. the Permafrost Archer is a Wizard himself. The only other thing is a Targeteer variant Fighter that will Instagib anything, but this is PF, so no.

Astral Projection works anywhere in PF, and there is no RAW way to sever the silver cord. You will never be fighting a wizard directly as a Ranger unless you can cast Planar travel spells, because there is no wizard to kill, just an astral projection. And this is for very unoptimal choices of invulnerability.

[Segev]

Well, to be fair, with only 4th level spells available, he is limited to lesser celerity, which only gives him a move action to find cover.

A ranger who wins init (which is doable, but hard, for reasons already given) can possibly surprise-round murder the wizard before the wizard has access to 5th level spells. Once he has Contingency, a wizard all but certainly will have a contingent Dimension Door or Teleport to get him out of danger.

But at 7th level, he's only got up to 4th level spells. He doesn't yet have the "mid-level" "I win" spells that ensure no wizard is ever really in danger.

[Snowbluff]

You know, Snowbluff knows his stuff, but he's not always right.

He may be right here, I'm not really paying attention. I just object to the suggestion that if one is debating a master, they might as well shut up, because they've already lost.

Someday, someone might even out-Tippy Tippy.

I'm flattered that I could be used a fallacy. However, I really want to know what's going on.

[Talya]

Well, to be fair, with only 4th level spells available, he is limited to lesser celerity, which only gives him a move action to find cover.

Wait...are we still talking Mystic Ranger? They get 5th level spells at level 10.

[Segev]

Wait...are we still talking Mystic Ranger? They get 5th level spells at level 10.

I thought we were talking about level 7 rangers and wizards. I may be confused.

[Snowbluff]

Wait...are we still talking Mystic Ranger? They get 5th level spells at level 10.

Not to mention that Lesser Celerity is a second level spell.

[Talya]

I'm flattered that I could be used a fallacy. However, I really want to know what's going on.

Oh, CombatOwl replied to one of your posts that I didn't really read with a big long argument I didn't read. Toapat told him he was wrong and had lost, not due to the content of his post, but because he was arguing with YOU.

I objected on principle!