OOTS #953 - The Discussion Thread

[Lheticus]

I have only one reaction:

Um...oops. O_O

[Mastikator]

This comic has come to a strange place when Belkar is the lone sane man.

[chibibar]

Ha, this vamp's got balls! Control weather to divert a divine omen, this'll either work or it'll just piss off Thor more.

Thor may be a bit of a buffoon, but he's definitely not the exemplar of a one trick pony.

I'm going with pissing him off more. Thor may be "fun loving god" or maybe even "irresponsible" but I'm sure he loves his people a lot (at least in the comic) so I don't think a simple control weather is going to divert divine weather ;)

[Jay R]

Imagine if we didn't know Durkon was a fake. Would the forums be universally siding with Belkar here?

Of course not, but what does that prove? The forums didn't universally predict that Durkon would become a vampire, or that Familicide would destroy the Draketooth clan, or any other plot point.

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.

[HandofShadows]

Aw, crap. Going to have to wait longer for the vamp to be discovered. If it ever is.

[Necris Omega]

Damn it all Roy, we just went through this "discover the person I admire is actually unspeakably evil but I'm too blind/dunderheaded to realize it" schlock with Elan and his skull underwear wearing father - we don't need to retread this all over again. You have a decent INT and WIS score and are devoted to subverting the notion that fighters are stupid idiots - Knock this pandering to drama garbage off and stop pandering to the unholy abomination desecrating the remains of your companion!

[FallenFallcrest]

Honestly some of the best anticlimax I have ever seen. Great work.

[Psyren]

Funny, but it can't work. The spell is powered by Hel but lightening is Thor's domain, therefore Thor wins any divine contest to control the lightning.

It comes down to one thing really - can Thor interfere with the mortal world enough - with none of his own clerics in the vicinity - to override an enemy cleric casting a directly opposing spell?

This entire scene might be a direct sendup of the clerical system in general, and the risks all gods take in choosing to use clerics as divine agents.

[DukeGod]

It comes down to one thing really - can Thor interfere with the mortal world enough - with none of his own clerics in the vicinity - to override an enemy cleric casting a directly opposing spell?

This entire scene might be a direct sendup of the clerical system in general, and the risks all gods take in choosing to use clerics as divine agents.

I'm taking the controversial stance and hoping the Control Weather works. Gods have never meddled directly in the mortal world of OotS, they've only granted and revoked powers. I think that as a rule, any cleric spell trumps a god's effect on the world.

[Kish]

So, any cleric with a "standard spell" can stop a direct act from a deity, even when said direct act is tied to their domain.
Either that, or the next strip shows Thor no-selling the spell, with a big "NOPE" coming down from the sky followed by a lightning.

The gods can't intervene directly, remember? If Thor personally overrides a spell from the High Priest of Hel, he's just begging for the string-pulling that created the Snarl to start again.

[jidasfire]

This went down about how I expected, but was handled with the Giant's usual cleverness and wit.

Thoughts: It seems most likely to me that the HPoH has got this one in the bag. It's probably too early in the story for him to be outed and have to go on the run, especially considering all the balls that are in the air regarding his plans. But now we know that he's up to the task of at least fending off obvious challenges to his credibility, which means Durkon and Belkar will have to work a fair bit harder to expose him. SOP in this comic is that the heroes almost never get the easy way out of their problems (except for Haley's haircut).

As for signs from Thor, I think it is him raising a twelve-alarm fire signal regarding the viper in the party's midst. Unfortunately, my general understanding of D&D gods suggests that they can't act overtly, lest other gods be able to do the same in retaliation, and thus have to work through their clerics. So I suspect this is a strong, but otherwise mundane storm, and since Hel and her priest were almost certainly prepared for this contingency, we can probably consider the sign missed. As to whether Thor will keep sending signs, that is harder to say.

Also, I think despite Belkar's constant suspicions and insults, Durkula is not going to move against him for the time being. He wants everyone convinced that he's Durkon, who always took Belkar's insults quietly. More than that, no one believes Belkar anyway, and him turning up dead or missing would only set off Roy that there's something to be suspicious of. Therefore, he'll probably leave Belkar alone until the halfling actually knows enough to be a true threat.

[Glodart]

The problem is the following: as shown before, Thor ignores the real effects of Control weather for what suits Him. Being the God of weather, even if it is against DND rules, it is still logical that he is the one oh chooses how the spell goes.
It's like trying to out-fight the God of War, to out-magic the God of Magic or to out-smart the God of Cleverness: it is not mortally possible (even if Durkula is technically immortal, being a vampire and all, but NOT THE POINT!)

[Keltest]

The problem is the following: as shown before, Thor ignores the real effects of Control weather for what suits Him. Being the God of weather, even if it is against DND rules, it is still logical that he is the one oh chooses how the spell goes.
It's like trying to out-fight the God of War, to out-magic the God of Magic or to out-smart the God of Cleverness: it is not mortally possible (even if Durkula is technically immortal, being a vampire and all, but NOT THE POINT!)

The problem with that theory is that its not Thor whos providing HPoH's weather control effect. Its Hel. Ultimately it becomes a contest to see who is more determined to control the weather. Domain or not, as HPoH pointed out, its a standard power of all gods.

[FujinAkari]

The gods can't intervene directly, remember? If Thor personally overrides a spell from the High Priest of Hel, he's just begging for the string-pulling that created the Snarl to start again.

Well, the Gods can't intervene directly outside of their own geographical regions. Thor has been shown personally throwing bolts of lightning in the past, and this current storm makes no sense coming from anyone BUT Thor.

[Timy]

The gods can't intervene directly, remember? If Thor personally overrides a spell from the High Priest of Hel, he's just begging for the string-pulling that created the Snarl to start again.

Good thinking !

I think you're right.

Beside, as it have been said multiple times, the HPoH can't be discovered so Soon.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Im referring specifically to the panels where we see the vampire body, with fangs and whatnot. He has been incredibly passive in this arc so far, especially compared to last arc where similar if not more serious situations were popping up left and right. But as far as weve seen this arc, since shouting "THOR'S NUTS!" he's just stood there. He didn't even give Belkar a sarcastic "Get out of my face so I can work, ya silly git!"

What's wrong, do you find this undead guy's mannerisms a bit stiff? Or perhaps cold?

Slightly more seriously, I figure it's because HPOH is pausing for thought, and the more thoughts he can fit into one pause, the better. But speaking from some experience, he'll have issues if he does that too often or for too long, lest people start feeling a bit nervy around him.

A clash of titans coming. Well, clash of gods, anyway. Hel is providing Durkula's spells. This Control Weather will be in direct conflict with Thor's "message". So are we going to see Thor and Hel duke it out in Asgard? I'd like to see that.

I especially would like to see Thor's art upgrade. And Thor in a more serious role than comic relief.

The problem with that theory is that its not Thor whos providing HPoH's weather control effect. Its Hel. Ultimately it becomes a contest to see who is more determined to control the weather. Domain or not, as HPoH pointed out, its a standard power of all gods.

Yes, all of this. Bring on the thunder!

[...] the CE/CN Belkar and the LF Durkon [...]

Lawful Fuzzy?

[Giggling Ghast]

Unlike many of Rich's twists, I kinda saw that one happening.

[SoC175]

Let's see:

1. HPoH's spell not working as it should

2. Cut to Hel and Thor standing before Odin shouting at each other

3. Odin telling Thor he's sorry, but Hel has an agent of the ground and he has not

4. Cut back to the order and calming weather

[daniel_ream]

As a major deity, Thor has literally thousands of points of primal energy. And it only takes one point of primal lacing to make that storm un-frakking-touchable by any mortal magic.

Of course, if Hel's lending primal energy to Durkula, then we've got a full-on god-on-god proxy war happening. As cool as that would be, it would take the focus away from the Order, so I hope that's not where Rich is going with this.

[toapat]

I must admit I've never played D&D with a cleric involved.

Would there be an actual discernable difference between Durkon pleading Thor for weather help & standard weather control?

Assuming Thor is actually using his Salient Divine Abilities which influence weather, yes. God > CoDZilla.

But i think the Storm was left in an escrow account last time Thor did his spell filing. If thats the case then hes not actively influencing his Portfolio, so control weather can stop the storm. Remember, a god only needs to actually bestow spells on their clerics for 1 hour once every 4 months.

[Amphiox]

From the vampire's point of view, even if the spell does not work, it has a 10 minute casting time, and that's 10 minutes he can use to delay/think up some other excuse, so starting to cast it is a good play.

Regarding Thor here, if Thor were completely unconstrained with the lightning, we must ask, why did he hit the Mechane's engine? Why not just fry the HPoH directly?

I suspect that Thor IS constrained somehow. Perhaps there are protocols between him and all the other Northern Gods with respect to what they can and cannot do to interfere with one another's clerics. In this case, Control Weather might work.

Even if it works, though, that doesn't mean Thor can't continue to try other means. Imagine if Control Weather does work, the storm dissipates, and then, suddenly, ANOTHER bolt of lightning comes down on the Mechane from a clear blue sky?

Or, what if the storm was actually natural, but Thor put an unnatural storm into a normal storm, to create his special lightning bolt, in which case, when the HPoH tries to use Control Weather to remove the unnatural weather, it succeeds, leaving behind the NORMAL storm, making it look like the spell didn't work? (This assumes that Thor truly is constrained by some understanding with Hel from just making the storm unremovable, and it also assumes Thor would be clever enough to think up a trick like this to get around that constraint...)

[Lheticus]

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.

OH I am so sigging this.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I figured it wouldn't be so easy, although I hoped.

[DaggerPen]

Huh, and I was so sure they'd be forced to land because the HPOH couldn't override Thor's wrath. Guess not!

[rman]

I would expect any clerical spell to involve the invokaction of the deity's name. And I would suspect it would be strange for the spell not to invoke the deity.

Please great $DEITY grant your power to ....

It's not like :
Geater Heal - verbal component "get up you lazy bones, twas but a scratch"
More Like :
Greater Heal - verbal component "In the name of $DEITY be healed and ready to work the will of $DEITY" or "Blessed $DEITY, grant your power to heal my friend Bob, who heathen thou he may be, aids me in fullfilling your will".

[Warren Dew]

Belkar can see things more clearly because he's cynical, because he has fewer emotional issues clouding his judgment here, and, I think, because he saw Durkon actually dying and becoming a vampire, so he has a better understanding of what a drastic change it was.

Also because Durkon and Belkar have always despised one another, so even if Belkar is wrong and it's really Durkon, staking him is still a net plus from Belkar's standpoint.

[Haluesen]

I don't get why so many of you are sooooo sure that HPoH is gonna be outed so soon or that Thor is gonna insta-override him or anything like that. The Giant has made it pretty clear that the Durkon becoming a vampire subplot has been in the making for quite a few years. Do you really all think it will end so quickly? Kinda naive. No clue how exactly, but HPoH will pull through this, though I kinda would like to see Thor try again later in the story.

Of course not, but what does that prove? The forums didn't universally predict that Durkon would become a vampire, or that Familicide would destroy the Draketooth clan, or any other plot point.

The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.

I very much want to sig that. It fits with the other quote I have so well.

OH I am so sigging this.

Aww you beat me to it. You two still don't mind if I sig it do you? I always ask politely.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

@everyone saying that Weather Control shouldn't override a God's storm:


"Mistress Hel, I've been reading the description of Control Weather... and I'm not sure it can actually DO that".

"I'm sorry, I didn't hear you just there. What did you say again?".

"•sigh• I said, 'nice thinking, Mistress'".

Repeating because nobody noticed it the first time.

[Terrador]

I'm hoping to Thor that this won't work, but I sadly suspect it will.

Spoiler: Meta

Show

We're gonna have a lot more time to learn to hate HPoH before his cover gets blown.

[Ainamacar]

I think the assumption that Thor is directly behind the weather is suspect. The fact that the lightning went around the lightning rod does suggest a will is behind the storm, but not whose will. The fact they crossed into Northern territory only means a different set of deities hold sway, but not which deity is acting here. Although this sort of stuff is in Thor's wheelhouse, Thor is almost certainly not the only one with the power to actually perform it. We certainly haven't seen Thor in the heavens directing things!

If only there were some agent that had something to gain by faking (and then calming) "Thor's" wrath... Oh, Hel! It would be perfect misdirection because all the signs are compatible with Thor, and without evidence that someone else might have something to gain there isn't much reason to suspect another cause. Done well this helps the order bottle up any misgivings about what is really going on with Durkula.

Belkar suspects something is up, but that it would be the master plan of an evil deity is not on his radar. Durkula calming the storm won't really assuage Belkar's suspicions, but it will make it harder to convince the others. Roy is aware that things are different, but evil deity's master plan is not on his radar either. Besides, so far Durkula has been a team player and that's just what Roy wants right now (and HPoH knows it). Durkon is obviously aware he's not driving his body any more, but does he know anything about Hel's master plan, or even direct involvement? We've seen no evidence of it, and I can't imagine why we wouldn't have a comic (or 3) about Durkon learning the true depths of what is going on. So if Durkon is unaware of Hel's interest even he has no obvious reason to see that anyone else has something to gain by faking Thor's wrath.

What about HPoH himself, who says "Crap" (to Durkon) when attention is directed his way? It's possible HPoH did not know it would happen, but that wouldn't stop Hel (who knows her priest has the tools to handle the situation). Or maybe HPoH did know, but is simply holding his cards close to his chest in front of Durkon. Or maybe he knew, but still said "Crap" honestly because that kind of direct attention is uncomfortable, planned or not.

I think we should be careful before we start making exactly the assumptions all the characters are making, particularly since we have information none of the characters have.