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2014-07-01, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-07-01, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
That seems like a pretty good reason to fire someone, I think. There's a not implausible chance that a fighter is actually worth less than the share of the money they take, a significantly higher chance that they're worth less than an increased share of the money that they take, and a massively higher chance that they're worth less than another party member with reality altering abilities. Fighters aren't utterly worthless, but they're pretty bad. If they weren't, then this topic wouldn't exist.
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2014-07-01, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
If you're approaching this from an in-universe perspective, then removing them only makes sense if there is a higher-tier class willing and able to replace them. Using the DMG population tables alone, this chance is vanishingly small, and even if you find one they could easily turn out to be a rival rather than an ally. Furthermore, in-universe, Tippy-level/do-everything spellcasters simply don't exist in most settings anyway and therefore nobody is realizing T1 potential.
If you're approaching this from a metagame perspective, then the friendship/relationship you have with the player who simply wants to be a fighter is more important than concerns of sheer efficiency or power.
So either way you approach it, there is more reason to keep them than to fire them (unless, again, you're intentionally playing in a tippy-style setting.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-07-01, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-07-01, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Really depends on the level, and once again, we run up against two issues with an inverse relationship. At low levels, the fighter is at his best, but the caster isn't that hard to find. At higher levels, an equal level caster might be trickier to find, but by this point the fighter starts verging towards actually useless, to the point that they might be worth less than the money you're giving them. Also, you can get around easier, and you have divinations of various kinds, so finding a higher level caster isn't quite as difficult as all that. As for out of game stuff, that was fine up to the point where the tier system essentially became an element of the game's mechanics.
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2014-07-01, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
To quote Tippy, high-level casters get that way by being paranoid, ignoble cusses. They might even be like you, willing to fire your friends at the drop of a hat because they don't measure up to standards of utmost efficiency. Trusting someone like that to watch your back seems like a good way to end up trapped in a gem/mindraped to devotion and all your powerful magic items powering up the guy who was ruthless enough to reach even higher still.
Of course, you could go it alone. And then the wizard who is equal to you in power but also has a fighter in tow can counter all your magic while his buddy rearranges your limbs. (Your actual limbs, mind, not those of your astral duplicate.)
When was that precisely? Last time I checked, even a T5 class can handle CR-appropriate challenges. Hell, there's a thread floating around about optimizing commoners to T1 levels somewhere.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-07-01, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
As I've said, I'm just going to not hire the guy in the first place. They literally reduce my ability to contribute by eating into my wealth by level. It's not about trust. It's about characters necessarily having their tiers written on their forehead, and the lower tier characters having extra negative effects in addition to their usual low usefulness.
Of course, you could go it alone. And then the wizard who is equal to you in power but also has a fighter in tow can counter all your magic while his buddy rearranges your limbs. (Your actual limbs, mind, not those of your astral duplicate.)
When was that precisely? Last time I checked, even a T5 class can handle CR-appropriate challenges. Hell, there's a thread floating around about optimizing commoners to T1 levels somewhere.
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2014-07-01, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Why would he? The Fighter can earn wealth, slay dragons etc. too. Furthermore, I assume you're going by RAW, and WBL is per PC - going it alone won't actually make you earn any more than what is on the table, not long-term anyway.
Also, unless homebrew/custom items exist in this setting, there is a functional limit to how much you can really benefit from your wealth due to things like body slots and action economy.
The point as I understood it was that you were pooling leftover resources you wouldn't have used anyway. Say the casters each had a couple hundred gold left - not enough for yet another wand, but enough combined to put ghost touch on the fighter's armor, that sort of thing.
There's also the economy of buffs themselves. Putting Haste and GMW on the barbarian results in greater damage than many other things the caster could be doing, and can actually be faster than putting all the enemies to sleep and then trundling over to CDG each one individually with a scythe etc.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-07-01, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Because you're presumably going on the same adventures. It doesn't really make much sense in game to consider stuff from the perspective of wealth by level, as you can't just assume that the dragons will spontaneously double themselves and increase in size when your party gets big enough.
Also, unless homebrew/custom items exist in this setting, there is a functional limit to how much you can really benefit from your wealth due to things like body slots and action economy.
The point as I understood it was that you were pooling leftover resources you wouldn't have used anyway. Say the casters each had a couple hundred gold left - not enough for yet another wand, but enough combined to put ghost touch on the fighter's armor, that sort of thing.
There's also the economy of buffs themselves. Putting Haste and GMW on the barbarian results in greater damage than many other things the caster could be doing, and can actually be faster than putting all the enemies to sleep and then trundling over to CDG each one individually with a scythe etc.
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2014-07-01, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
That split wasn't my understanding. If that's the case then I agree that's too extreme.
I also agree that a smaller allocation won't "fix balance" - but that was never my goal to begin with. I know fighters are inferior and that's okay. I just don't think they're so inferior that partnering with one is actually a net negative.
Actually, that's exactly what the CR system does - if you have more people in the party you have to up the XP budget and therefore the challenge. It might not mean doubling a dragon like an amoeba, but it would mean throwing in a few lizardfolk and their high priest/shaman worshiping him or something.
That's so (though a pretty massive number do) - though it seems to me that in-universe, crafting that many Super-Items would make you a pretty juicy target Imagine just one of your rings being worth a king's ransom after you're done piling properties onto it for instance.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-07-01, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
I think that's part of the complaint (or well, it's at least half of mine). The 'higher tier' characters will feel annoyed like they are being robbed because someone wanted to play a fighter, which isn't a feeling you want to cultivate.
Although if you go the 'here we have Excalibur!' route, you actually may be able to pull off the 'so you technically have higher WBL' angle without causing any real concerns while giving potency to someone who could use it. Just watch out for the cleric deciding that this makes it a good moment to take weapon proficiency (longsword).Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...
~ Final Fantasy Tactics
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2014-07-01, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Perhaps, but to some extent you can't really consider that from an in game perspective. When you're choosing whether to bring a fighter along or not, it doesn't really make much sense to say that it's a good idea because you'll make more money, simply because you have more characters with you. I think that's really the problem here, that this sort of fix connects in game and out of game elements in a weird way. Also, y'know, if encounter difficulty is also assumed to calibrate with power level, then the cited wizard v. wizard/fighter encounter seems vaguely unlikely. Either the party fighter is reducing GP, or increasing CR, and in either case he has a good chance of being of net negative impact.
That's so (though a pretty massive number do) - though it seems to me that in-universe, crafting that many Super-Items would make you a pretty juicy target Imagine just one of your rings being worth a king's ransom after you're done piling properties onto it for instance.Last edited by eggynack; 2014-07-01 at 07:49 PM.
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2014-07-01, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
I bring the fighter (or any other melee type) and give him an equal share because sometimes Iron Golems happen.
When I'm standing there looking at my spell list going "nope, nope, nope, nope, oh hell no (fire damage), nope" and wishing I'd memorized Tenser's Transformation and brought a dagger, that fighter is not only mighty handy to have along, but I'm glad we gave him the +3 sword so he can actually do damage. Because otherwise I'm screwed.
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2014-07-01, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Eh, not if you prepare spells right. Something like a summoning spell, orb, or black tentacles will work just fine against a golem. Notably, because druids have constant access to wild shape beat-stickery, an animal companion, and spontaneous summoning, they're still going to make for a better choice for a party than a fighter in this sort of situation. A cleric usually will too, on the basis of DMM persist based stabbery, though perhaps to a lesser extent.
Last edited by eggynack; 2014-07-01 at 08:20 PM.
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2014-07-01, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
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2014-07-01, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-07-01, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Or, heck, if you just need to bypass the Golem, rather than destroying it, you could cast an image-, fog-, or invisibility-based spell and sneak away, fly out of its reach, cast Grease and walk away as it slips and slides, teleport out of its line of sight, or any of a number of other things. Most of the standard Golem varieties are not particularly threatening; they are unintelligent and tend to lack options that aren't "walk up and punch something."
Last edited by Karnith; 2014-07-01 at 08:25 PM.
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2014-07-01, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Of course it's unlikely - only 5% of encounters (IIRC) are meant to be overwhelming per the DMG after all.
And that's part of the problem with going it alone - you might not know which of those fights will be too much for you until it's too late, at which point you can use all the help you can get with escaping. And sure, that help coming in the form of another T1 class would be preferable, but that runs into the problems of trust at high levels covered previously.
This is readily offset by the greater numbers making you a collectively riskier target and thus off-putting to would-be thieves or assailants.
So long as you agree it exists, you might as well make friends now.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-07-01, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Well, sure, but it all kinda maths out in favor of the lone wizard, as that 5% is going to be even more overwhelming when we talk about the wizard+fighter. To some extent, a core assumption here is that all parties are going to face challenges that are of equal difficulty. It's all kinda weird.
And that's part of the problem with going it alone - you might not know which of those fights will be too much for you until it's too late, at which point you can use all the help you can get with escaping. And sure, that help coming in the form of another T1 class would be preferable, but that runs into the problems of trust at high levels covered previously.
So long as you agree it exists, you might as well make friends now.
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2014-07-01, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Nothing. It was a terrible spell in AD&D, and it's only worse in 3x. It's the 13th level equivalent of breaking out the light crossbow. But barring orb shenanigans (the whole "instantaneous conjured magic bypasses SR" thing is rather odd, and in my experience is either house-ruled away, or those force orbs would hit his DR at least), or in a core game where he doesn't have them, a wizard is in over his head.
Black Tentacles have a sub-50% chance to slow it down for a few rounds, but they won't do any damage.
A regular summons is even worse than a fighter. Nothing on the Summon VII list is going to threaten an Iron Golem. Most of the creatures can't even hit it, get past it's DR, or both.
Yes, a CoDzilla is better than a fighter. Again, we are down to rules interpretations. Persistent Spell is in a list that says "Deities can take these feats" at the top if you are playing Core, which leaves out anyone who would be troubled by an Iron Golem. Powering Metamagic via turn attempts isn't in core at all. Druid shapeshift or Divine Power still work, but when you walk into melee range you are turning yourself into a melee class temporarily anyway. Except with less hitpoints, AC, and melee feats. And the Cleric can only do it for a few rounds.
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2014-07-01, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-07-01, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
My adventuring groups have always functioned by taking any material loot and giving it to each person as they needed it, and selling off the rest - or feeding it to the party artificer, if available - and putting the proceeds from that as well as any liquid cash loot into the party chest. From there anyone who wants something will ask the group if it's okay to use the party gold to buy (x) item and justify it, and usually the answer is yes because nobody's going to ask for something really outlandish unless they need it.
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2014-07-01, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
These things aren't perfect, but they have reasonable impact. Reasonable is enough, a lot of the time. A huge elemental has the stats to bypass both the AC and DR, and playing keep away from the air is much better when you don't have a fighter weighing you down, and demanding that you actually kill stuff in a timely manner.
Yes, a CoDzilla is better than a fighter. Again, we are down to rules interpretations. Persistent Spell is in a list that says "Deities can take these feats" at the top if you are playing Core, which leaves out anyone who would be troubled by an Iron Golem. Powering Metamagic via turn attempts isn't in core at all. Druid shapeshift or Divine Power still work, but when you walk into melee range you are turning yourself into a melee class temporarily anyway. Except with less hitpoints, AC, and melee feats. And the Cleric can only do it for a few rounds.Last edited by eggynack; 2014-07-01 at 09:01 PM.
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2014-07-01, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-07-01, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-07-01, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Ah, but even more overwhelming to fight doesn't mean even more overwhelming to escape from. For example, if an overwhelming encounter starts with a foe paralyzing the wizard and dispelling his contingency, alone he is at his opponent's mercy, while if he's with the fighter the fighter can at least pick him up and run. Both situations are "overwhelming" (since the fighter is unlikely to win without your support if the encounter was above both of you to start with), but as you can see the outcome between the two situations is very different.
The wizard "ally," being a wizard, can use all of your gear. As you yourself noted, the wealth value at which more gear becomes redundant is likely extraordinarily high, so this guy stands to gain quite a lot of power if he can bump you off and take your stuff.
The fighter has a lot less to gain even if he were to somehow be able to overpower you, which is also less likely to be successful - two corners of the fraud triangle (motive and opportunity) are much smaller for him.
Once you get to those levels wealth starts to become irrelevant anyway (as does class - you can simply Team Solars and there is no more "fighter") so the entire distinction breaks down. Though again, aside from a Tippy-style setting this won't happen in-universe anyway or it already would have.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-07-01, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
Maybe the problem is that casters don't have to pay for a lot of their arsenal, and what they do have to pay is far too cheap?
I mean, all 20th level Fighter get is his starter gear, all the rest he has to buy using the WBL.
Wizard wants a new spell on a level up? Pay the full research cost, otherwise all you get is ability to learn the spell and new spell slots - but not the actual spells to fill those slots; you can use them on metamagic'ed low level spells instead. Each spell might also require a lot of unique, expensive and very specific spell foci (quite heavy and bulky too boot), and you would have to pay for them, too.
Maybe even make it so that each new spell is a new Quest or even a whole campaign, with mundanes getting mundane version of it: wizard gets Flight, fighter gets Flying Carpet.Last edited by SinsI; 2014-07-01 at 09:37 PM.
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2014-07-01, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
I've gotta figure that there's always the second situation, where the wizard on his own would be able to make use of his escape button spells with greater ease, while doing so with a fighter in the party could lead to his death, if you can't bring both of you for whatever reason. Wizards are often pretty good at that sort of thing.
The wizard "ally," being a wizard, can use all of your gear. As you yourself noted, the wealth value at which more gear becomes redundant is likely extraordinarily high, so this guy stands to gain quite a lot of power if he can bump you off and take your stuff.
The fighter has a lot less to gain even if he were to somehow be able to overpower you, which is also less likely to be successful - two corners of the fraud triangle (motive and opportunity) are much smaller for him.
Once you get to those levels wealth starts to become irrelevant anyway (as does class - you can simply Team Solars and there is no more "fighter") so the entire distinction breaks down. Though again, aside from a Tippy-style setting this won't happen in-universe anyway or it already would have.
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2014-07-01, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
It's been tried. What this creates is a hostile atmosphere that punishes players who weren't causing problems in the first place - the weaker optimizers who are less able to deal with the changes. People who make powerful characters are usually system-savvy enough to get around such restrictions none the worse for wear.
Maybe even make it so that each new spell is a new Quest or even a whole campaign, with mundanes getting mundane version of it: wizard gets Flight, fighter gets Flying Carpet.
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2014-07-01, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people want even treasure splits?
OK, I did miss elementals. Fire can't damage it (heals it at the same time), and Air has problems getting thru the DR. Leaving Earth and Water. I don't even know what an Oread is, so I can't comment on it's stats, but it isn't core. Nor is a Thoon, whatever that is. Earthquake is 8th level, a bit above my target (I was figuring L13 characters).
Yes, the companion polar bear is still better than the fighter, at least buffed.
Sure, fighters are better non-core (and you can play a warblade then anyway), but a bog-standard unoptimized beatstick fighter should be sporting about +20 to hit at L13, even if his only adamantium weapon is a masterwork longsword that fell into the bottom of his pack and was forgotten. He'll have similar hitpoints and AC compared to the golem, and will do slightly less damage per hit (his 3rd attack just misses). No power attack, no crit-fishing, no tripping, just straight slugfest. Cast Slow Poison on him at breakfast time. Rest of the party can eat popcorn, maybe cast a single Cure Critical partway through, and it's done. If you bother to buff him at all, or if he's even vaguely optimized, he won't even need the heal.
I'm not arguing to say Fighters are tier 1 (or 3), or that the wizard isn't better the vast majority of the time. But there are specific instances where they ARE better at that one thing (mashing faces), and a good DM is going to add encounters designed to make him the star at least part of the time. Monsters with immunities, anti-magic shell, time-critical missions where you can't stop and recover spells, honor duels with the king's champion, or whatever else.
And besides, the player is probably my friend. Why would I want to be a **** and leave him out of the loot share?Last edited by Elkad; 2014-07-01 at 09:57 PM.