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2014-12-15, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
In the same vein of "hypothetical question with varying degrees of circumstance-dependent answers", a question that has been preying in my mind with the recent el goonish shive storyline. When should a trans person come out to a (maybe) date? On one hand, you don't want to come out to anyone that invites you out for an afternoon (e.g. beers with a coworker doesn't require it at all), on the other, that's a big thing to keep from a potential romantic partner. My tentative answer is "when it becomes clear they are an actual date", which is fraught with dangers and misunderstanding.
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2014-12-15, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Hard question. Also quite broadly applicable, since "when to talk about yourself" comes up with gender, orientation, kinks, fetishes, polyamory, and probably even vanilla relationships where people aren't on the same wavelength right away. Or as Haley put it, "Oooo I probably shouldn't tell you about cousin Sheila then."
I guess, my answer is that you should tell people important info early enough that they won't feel deceived. If it's something like being trans, that's going to be very quickly because otherwise they might make a mistake when it comes to romantic feelings and be very hurt. When it comes to a fetish, it's probably fine to wait longer since that only comes up if a relationship gets serious. Weird family members and assorted personal habits can wait longer still, though I don't think I'd want to marry someone without at least letting them know if they were going to get some serious flak at family events.
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2014-12-15, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Huh. Last I'd read that they had rayguns that performed perfect, reversible SRS.
Generally prior to getting alone with them when sexual intercourse is on what they perceive to be the itinerary; unless it's a situation where one will take one's chances with just never telling the other person, such as a shag with a veritable stranger where one is confident that there's no real chance of being clocked during foreplay or sex. So that's really the only hard, hard, hard limit I'm aware of and every time this has come up in the past someone has complained that it lends credence to the idea that there's something wrong about being trans* or that trans* people are expected to apologize to others for existing.
*shrug* Something like somewhere between before the 2nd date and before the 4th date if things are looking serious enough, but generally not *on* one of those dates, or at least, not unless there's some relative conversational privacy without actually being secluded and vulnerable as a result of said privacy is what I can recall as what little attempt at consensus was made last time there was a conversation about this, but even that'll catch some flak, especially if combined with the maxim "don't **** 'em before you've told them if you're ever going to tell them," because many people object to being told to live like nuns.
Of course, with the increased ability to actually have one's transgender status as part of one's dating profile, there's also some pressures to just be out as trans* before one has even been asked on a date, though not enough to counteract the pressures to not reveal one's trans status casually, at least, not on every website. If online dating enters into things at all, though it's not an option on all dating websites yet.
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2014-12-15, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
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2014-12-15, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Other than fear for ones safety and reputation, (which are valid concerns, sadly,) what reasons do people have to withhold their transgender status from someone prior to sex? Either the potential partner doesn't mind having sex with a transgender person, in which case it shouldn't be an issue, or they do mind having sex with a transgender person, in which case you are sleeping with someone who wouldn't consent if they knew the whole picture. I realize this is an odd line, as under this paradigm you have to wonder what exactly should one reveal and what are they allowed to keep hidden before sleeping with someone. And being transgender isn't a moral issue, (hey, you should know I'm a neo-nazi,) or a health one, (I have herpes,) so the obligation isn't easily answered. But if you know there is a decent chance someone wouldn't sleep with you if they knew X, whatever X is, isn't it better not to do it? Just respect that, even if you don't respect them for it? It's not a matter of being less of a man or woman, just a matter of recognizing someone else's boundaries even if they are irrational boundaries. If I was going to sleep with someone, and I had reason to believe they don't sleep with or date Jews, I might think they are an ass depending on why, but I like to think I wouldn't sleep with them.
I'm curious to hear other people's opinions on this.Last edited by SowZ; 2014-12-15 at 08:30 PM.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2014-12-15, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
I am surprised you want clarification. Means it's not as universal to grok as my experiences have shown so far.
I think the basest grosse explanation is "pain" and "damage".
Sort of.
Yeah, that's probably clearer.
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2014-12-15, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
The Jewish person example is a good one. And I think there's an argument both ways. On the one hand, if you're getting to know somebody else and they have boundaries, even irrational stupid boundaries that make no sense, it's a good thing to respect them. I think all of us would like everyone we meet to recognize and respect our own boundaries, so it's a fair thing to do the same.
On the other hand, if someone is willing to have sex with you without inquiring about your background, you can argue that's on them. Transgender isn't such a unique thing that it must always be disclosed to all people, it's just one of many characteristics. I don't think most people limit themselves to only have sex after requiring a partner to fill out a questionnaire listing out race, ethnicity, religion, income, any kinks, birth gender, and all past sexual experiences, yet any one of those things could be a deal-breaker for someone.
That's about what I thought, but I didn't want to presume. Though I still stand by my original statement for both. If you can avoid it, it's great if both pain and damage are minimized for everyone and in some situations there are creative ways to do that. Other times there aren't and you have to balance things based on the unique factors present in each situation. Pain that is fleeting and ephemeral is less bad than lasting damage in that calculus, but they're all a departure from the ideal.
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2014-12-15, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
I disagree, based on the idea that pain is a catalyst for growth. I believe this is where intention factors in.
Actually I'm not sure if that's a disagreement really because I cannot think of a specific example of causing someone pain to help them. I support the concept but if the concept is never actionable then why support it? Will ponder.
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2014-12-15, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2014-12-15, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Well, to paraphrase one current of thought on the subject, only transphobic bigots wouldn't want to have sex with a trans* person or would have their perception of the trans* person they were dating altered by finding out after they had sex or found out somehow on their own rather than being told.
Another is that the trans* person's privacy and comfort trumps the potential sensitivity and importance of that information to the other person.
For one-night stands where one has already isolated out the "will I be murdered by this person I want to have sex with?" element, there's the element of "is it worth the risk of not getting laid and the time it'd take to bring it up and have that conversation?"
Some have voiced the opinion that after having transitioned, acknowledging being trans* would be acknowledging being less than perfectly a woman, though I'm missing some nuance there and am not perfectly repeating that thought.
Anarion has showcased the line of thought that being trans* isn't a big deal and telling the other person without being asked would be making it a bigger deal than it is.
There's an undercurrent that's only rarely explicitly stated that only transphobia would affect consent at that point, and if they're that transphobic then it's on them to have broached the subject, otherwise they really just don't care enough about it to justify telling them.
That's everything I can remember offhand.
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2014-12-15, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Bottom of a well
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
My advice for when to come out is "Before you are alone with them when you are considering removing your pants." It's a bad idea to come out to someone when you're alone, because if they freak it's more dangerous than if you're in a public space. Regardless of how terrible I think the idea of a transpanic defense is, don't become a statistic. At the same time, if you're not planning on letting them play with your genitals, they don't have a need to know.
Alternatively, with internet dating and things, it might be a good idea to just be completely up front about it. Include it in your profile and only let people who are okay with it talk to you, that way when the "pants removal" conversation comes around, you're already on the same page.
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2014-12-15, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Hmm. Nearly everyone would agree that not telling someone and going ahead with it anyway when you know they would not consent if they knew, or lying when asked then engaging in sex afterwards, is wrong, yes?
The, "If the issue never came up, why is the onus on me? Their assumption is that I am X gender and they are correct." makes sense. But I am incredibly uncomfortable with the, "I wouldn't get laid if they knew so I will withhold the info precisely because I know they would retract sex," line of thought. I am uncomfortable because I think we should cast the widest net that is reasonable around consent, and even when people willingly engage in sex, it is wrong to do so under false pretenses. This also includes my belief that we should respect that everyone has absolute discretion in drawing their own sexual lines; even when such lines are racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, whatever. You don't have to respect the individual for it, but if someone has drawn a sexual line, it is not okay to ignore it just because it is invalid and bigoted. Does that make sense? This is not to equate the topic at hand with rape, it clearly isn't the same and anyone who implies that it is is engaging in hyperbole at best and hate speech at worst. But it doesn't have to be rape to be unethical.
Although some of my views may be reactionary to the fact that I am frequently disgusted with the game-like culture that getting laid seems to be knee deep in, and relating to a desire for casual sex with near strangers is something I can't 100% relate to. Regardless, "You didn't ask," might have validity but I don't think deceit does, excepting when lying is for your own safety, of course.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2014-12-16, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
On AVEN a bit back the question came up, "When should you come out to a potential romantic partner?" For alloromantic asexuals, I would definitely say before the relationship transitions to "dating." But there's also much less acephobia than transphobia and it's generally less extreme. We usually get invisibility and confusion, not anger, disgust, or violence. For trans* people it's a bit bigger deal to come out. For online dating, sure, put it right out there and let people screen themselves out ahead of time; they don't know who you are or where you live yet. For dating the old-fashioned way, though, I'd probably say that it should come up once you think the person is worth getting to know better but after you've gotten to know them well enough to feel things out first. Definitely before things get sexual, because genitals are a big deal for a lot of allosexual people, even if they're not transphobic.
Of course I also have no idea how "dating" even works and the concept is utterly alien to me so who knows if that makes sense.Jude P.
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2014-12-16, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Somewhere south of Hell
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2014-12-16, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Denver
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
You are sometimes in a situation where if you don't cause pain to one person, you are inadvertently causing more pain to someone else, sometimes someone more innocent in whatever hypothetical scenario we are talking about.
I've dated a couple people so it isn't foreign to me. That all makes sense to me.Last edited by SowZ; 2014-12-16 at 01:12 AM.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2014-12-16, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Bottom of a well
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
See, the difference is the reaction. The negative reaction to an asexual coming out is overwhelmingly "If sex isn't on the table, I'm not interested in a relationship." Sometimes it goes as far as "corrective" rape. It can be bad, but it's not usually life threatening. Trans people (especially women), face life threatening reactions to coming out: more than a hundred trans people are murdered every year, and most of them by romantic or sexual partners who reacted negatively to the news, or potentials for the same. It's not a conversation that you should have in private, where you can't escape or scream for help. If it's a dealbreaker for someone, that's one thing, but if it triggers them to attack you you need to be safe, and while it's not okay to blame the victims if asked for advice my first advice is "be safe, take precautions."
Asexuality, it's probably a good idea to come out before the first date, because it speaks to the expectations of the relationship. Trans people, it's safer not to come out unless it's necessary (they're going to find out anyway if things continue: I.E. you're considering sex) or you're using it to safely screen people out before meeting them (I.E. online dating, or if you're an open face of the LGBT movement: Folks like our own Miriel or a star like Laverne Cox's first credits on a background check are likely to read "transgender activist" and plenty of people google people they're interested in these days). There are people who are dangerous to tell at all, and in such cases it's better to just break up and show them the door rather than risk an explosive reaction, and it's not obvious who they are when you start dating.
Yeah, it can speak to the expectations of the relationship, because you don't have to be transphobic for a penis or a vulva to be a dealbreaker with sex, and sex is an important aspect to relationships for many if not most people. But it's better to have that conversation in a safe public space if and only if you're sure it's a matter for their discussion. When my ex-girlfriend came out to me, she was worried I was going to start beating her because she had been physically assaulted coming out to people twice before: I had suspected she was trans but until it was time to get into each other's pants it wasn't my business, you see, and if she wasn't sure about me I didn't want to pressure her into coming out because that's a bad precedent to set. Good people who are still interested will understand. Bad people aren't going to take it better any earlier in the relationship. People on the fence or who are decent but no longer interested are more likely to take it better the better you already know each other, and if there's a crowd nearby that you can call on for help or as witnesses.
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2014-12-16, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
I can't really answer that, even what I've said so far is just to the best of my recollection rather than something I can really represent in a discussion beyond "Oh, yeah, I seem to recall something along these lines having been said a few times."
I could share my personal take on the matter, but that's less than useful since the posts I've made on the subject haven't already attracted more attention and all I could hope to do would be to attract more attention.
So until someone comes in to either say "err, you've not quite got it, it's more like..." or "OY! I'll champion that!" it's sorta stalled out and the key point golentan mentioned of pragmatism and ensuring one's own survival is... well, the main key point.
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2014-12-16, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2006
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Er... No. A gay man or straight woman may not want to have sex with me because I don't have a penis. If a significant part of what someone enjoys about sex is not possible because the trans person doesn't have a necessary part, that isn't an issue of transphobia - it's an issue of "this is what I like, and sorry, you can't do it."
Even bottom surgery may not solve the problem. Bottom surgery for transmen does not give very realistic results, even if he takes the option to get the useable penis.
I once found out a woman I was interested in was trans because I googled her name. (I was looking for research papers she had published.) Turns out she had sued a former employer who fired her when she started transition, and there were newspaper articles about it.Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
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2014-12-16, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Bottom of a well
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Which is part of why it's good to practice mindfulness about what might be out there about you. If you get blindsided by someone, any other precautions are moot.
Also, the lack of functionality might be a dealbreaker for me with post op transmen, I don't think so but the fact I'm not sure is an indicator that all might not be well there. I'd be willing to give it a shot, if nothing else, but I don't know that I'd be able to enjoy sex under the circumstances and (same as my concern with dating an asexual who was disturbed by sex rather than simply unaroused) I'm not sure I could stay in a long term relationship where sex wasn't a thing that we did. I think I could, but I don't know.
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2014-12-16, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
One other point that hasn't really been covered is reproduction. It's not something you usually worry about (as a goal) for a one-night stand, but in a potential long term relationship the partner should probably be aware fairly early on that if kids are going to be in the picture, adoption or surrogacy/sperm donors will probably be involved.
I think if you've got anything physical that might be a deal breaker for the other person, it should probably come out well before sex. When it comes to equipment, it's best if you don't surprise your partner. Cis guys who are extremely short or extremely long in a certain area are in this boat, as are people with nerve damage, medical conditions, ill-considered tattoos, birth defects, extremely strong fetishes, or even things like skin discoloration or oddly shaped birthmarks. The majority of trans people do end up in this category, but having to disclose some physical complications that may result in a potential partner withdrawing consent isn't limited to trans people.This signature is no longer incredibly out of date, but it is still irrelevant.
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2014-12-16, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
I can't quite work out why this isn't a damn good point. I'm sure it isn't, but I can't see the counter argument. Care to help?
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2014-12-16, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
It is a good point, but it's a good point which is usually not actually a counter to the point the other person is making - it doesn't mean women don't suffer from discrimination, only that men also do, and anyone who thought they didn't was acting under a very grave misapprehension.
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2014-12-16, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Hmm... What I was about to say is probably not appropriate so give me a minute.
...
The impression I'm getting is that the poster (a 9gag user) is mad about feminism and thinks women just want to take the top spots (by the way, the office is "white collar") and leave men in the trash. So although it's an interesting point it's being made for a bad reason.
There is also some discussion of sexism in blue-collar work out there, mostly saying that women who are physically capable are turned down from construction/contracting/whatever jobs because "women are too weak" or whatever. So the poster also missed that this is in the broader conversation already.Jude P.
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2014-12-16, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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- Germany
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
I've read a good rebuttal of that one on tumblr - basically, it's simply wrong.
Last edited by Lycunadari; 2014-12-16 at 03:33 PM. Reason: typo
You can call me Juniper. Please use gender-neutral pronouns (ze/hir (preferred) or they/them) when referring to me.
"We all are vessels of our brokenness, we carry it inside us like water, careful not to spill. And what is wholeness if not brokenness encompassed in acceptance, the warmth of its power a shield against those who would hurt us?" - R. Lemberg, Geometries of Belonging
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2014-12-16, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Women are not stopped from working in cola mines because they are women. Women are not stopped from working in waste management because they are women. Women are not stopped from working in sewers because they are women. The picture showed does not represent blue collar jobs, the picture showed represents white collar jobs.
Contrast with the idea that men's rights activists use; only men go off to die in war, how is that for equal or fair? Answer: you don't get to stop me from making the same sacrifice and blame me for not making the same sacrifice in the same breath.
Work equality is for all jobs. We don't campaign for equality because women aren't in those positions based on merit, we campaign because they are actively sabotaged and kept out of those positions. Show me someone keeping a woman out because she is a woman and I'll fight tooth and nail to get her into that damn sewer.
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2014-12-16, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
I think that's well put. I'd agree with this. I also like that it's a broader thing. If you're unusual in a way that could be a physical issue and the other person wouldn't even know to ask, it does seem fair to share it before anything gets too serious.
Well, that's what I was going to say, so well done everyone tackling all the hard topics. I'd also note that it's nearly impossible to separate out the differences in who goes to which jobs from social gender stereotyping. You can't make a statement like "women simply aren't as interested in being sewer workers as men" because that's likely to come from the fact that parents discourage their daughters from doing anything that gets them dirty while encouraging their sons to play freely outside. I honestly have no idea what the world would look like if all of a sudden every gender stereotype that was enforced from birth were to disappear. It would be interesting.
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2014-12-16, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
Actually, it happens all the damn time. Women don't get mining jobs even when qualified for it frequently. And in many places, mining and warehouse jobs are the highest paying jobs most people can reasonably get.
That men work in mines is in no way discriminatory against men. This isn't slave labor. Men have more options across the board. Blue collar, white collar, whatever. Men can work just about anywhere they want. Men are discriminated when it comes to working with children and to a lesser extent secretarial positions. There's very little job discrimination aside from that.
If women were working all the white collar jobs and men were forced to do blue collar, that would be an issue of discrimination against men. But that doesn't happen.
As for the military service thing. Did you know that white men were the only people conscripted for compulsory military service in apartheid South Africa? Does that equate to discrimination against whites in apartheid South Africa? Of course not. Most countries have an ego thing where they want their military to be a face of the ideal citizen. While I don't agree with compulsory military service in almost any context, compulsory military service of a specific group is generally reflective of that group being considered superior.
(And no, 'most women wouldn't be as good combatants' is a nonsense argument if for no other reason than the sheer number of non-combatant jobs out there. Not to mention there are plenty of women who could fight, and plenty of men who are signed up but wouldn't be good at fighting. Men are the only ones who sign up for selective service because men are seen as stronger and more competent.)Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
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2014-12-16, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
You mean other than disingenuously using the classist notions of society at large that garbage collectors, coal miners, and sewer workers are human trash who don't matter(and in coal miners' cases, don't deserve basic safety in the workplace) to call Feminism evil and illegitimate?
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2014-12-16, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Bottom of a well
Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double
We'll always need sanitation, and while I'm hopeful we may transition away from needing massive coal mining soon mining in general is a vital industry for manufacturing. I don't care who's doing it, as long as they're competent, well compensated for taking on frequently unpleasant work, safe, and not discriminated against in hiring practices. You may notice that almost none of those conditions are currently being met. Other people have mentioned how the gender discrimination argument is BS. Anyone who can handle the work should have the opportunity to do so, and should be compensated appropriately for doing so.
You know, back home, the most respected caste of society were the farmers? They handled municipal solid waste, recycling it into food. Without both functions, society would have choked on its own filth and starved to death. The farmers took on the most unpleasant, hard labor we had, and rather than entrust it to automated systems that would be prone to failure in disasters kept alive the methods to do things by hand, and in return we honored them and made sure that they had every available comfort. Society cannot survive without its underpinnings.
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2014-12-16, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double