The Pub: Off-topic chat for forum gamers

[Mrs McGinty]

The ability to nullify a lynch is a fairly aggravating power even if it balanced by other factors. I would recommend changing it for something else.

I agree. In fact, I'd go even further, and say that, unless you're placing alternative lynch mechanics at the heart of your game design, the person with the most votes should die at the end of each day, guaranteed.

The basic concept of the lynch - an uninformed majority attempting to catch an informed minority through collective decision-making - is pretty much the whole point of mafia/ww. Variants that radically alter this essential relationship can be enjoyable because they force players who are experienced in the standard set-up to respond to something different. By contrast, where the standard mechanic is preserved, and it's just a case of giving certain players lynch-affecting abilities for the sake of game balance (or just to have more people in non-vanilla roles), you're much more likely to make the game less enjoyable, rather than more so.

The only major exception I can think of is casting votes - abilities that break ties. Since these only kick in when the players at large have failed to reach a clear decision, you're less likely to end up with a bunch of players who feel cheated out of a legitimate lynch, or who see days of hard-fought debate as having been nothing but a waste of their time.

[Ramsus]

@People who complained about a lack of roleplaying: You kind of lose your right to complain when someone makes a game where roleplaying is essentially how you play the game and you don't even sign up for it, let alone try to get other people to. It's not like you're going to get more people to run roleplaying focused games when you make it clear that it's just a total waste of effort.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You've had your sign-up sheet open for a week, during a period where there's already a game running and low sign-ups in general, so not that unusual;

Did you send out invites?

[Ramsus]

Always seemed weird to me to PM people I know are around and should have seen my thread already if they cared to join. I understand PMing people who I don't think would have noticed, but I can't think of any that haven't flat out left the forum or such.

[Cyber Punk]

Hello everyone. You may call me Eagle.

@PizzaGuy: Yes, I do, though I've never GM'd before. Also, one could prompt presently signed-up people to 'advertise' to people who may be interested.

Also, I have a question: Where can I find the Ready! Aim! Shoot! Forum game? I lurked around reading it a while ago and it was fun and attractive.

[Duck999]

Are you talking about Read Aim Fire!? That game ended a bit back, but someone could start a new one whenever.

[BourgeoisJerry]

@People who complained about a lack of roleplaying: You kind of lose your right to complain when someone makes a game where roleplaying is essentially how you play the game and you don't even sign up for it, let alone try to get other people to. It's not like you're going to get more people to run roleplaying focused games when you make it clear that it's just a total waste of effort.

Well, I don't actually complain about it but I do enjoy role playing, so I'm not sure if you're referring to me. Either way, I may as well explain: I pretty much just didn't notice the game. I don't really pay much attention to what threads are open in the forum; I notice games as they're announced in Central. Maybe I was busy on the day you posted that Core Component was open for recruitment, or maybe I just thought I already knew what the game was about, but for whatever reason I didn't look at the thread then, and this is the first I've heard of the game since. The fact that you never really described the game (as far as I know) in any of the threads I'm watching didn't help.

Anyway, I've read through about half of the opening post. I'll read through the rest later and see about joining then, but I've got somewhere I have to be right now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Time to make a separate thread for the aforementioned mafia revival project I've been working on.

Legend of Zelda: Shadow of Hyrule pregame interest and discussion

http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/5n4j3hxah7e

I'd like to see several names from GITP. Especially those of you who have been looking for a patient, involved, roleplay-centered game.

Also briefly, of interest to you mayhaps would be the idea I just came up with to continue your personal sidequest even if you die early, which may allow you to win. So, don't be discouraged by a pesky thing like death. Although it eliminates you fair and square from the town v mafia war, it doesn't prevent you from continuing along your personal goal line of victory.

Which is perhaps the idea which should excite players of mafia games the most. Being the first one to die is no longer an impediment to contributing toward your own victory.

Read more and indicate interest there.

[smashbro]

@People who complained about a lack of roleplaying: You kind of lose your right to complain when someone makes a game where roleplaying is essentially how you play the game and you don't even sign up for it, let alone try to get other people to. It's not like you're going to get more people to run roleplaying focused games when you make it clear that it's just a total waste of effort.

(Take with a grain of salt, coming from someone who start started hanging around the forums again recently) I think the issue is just that it's sometimes hard for players to find the games or players just might miss it.

A question to everyone, is there a thread where you can advertise non werewolf, structured games? The Finding Players section seems to be overwhelmed by regular roleplaying, so even if someone put a recruitment thread there, it's likely to get buried pretty soon.

[Aventine]

A question to everyone, is there a thread where you can advertise non werewolf, structured games? The Finding Players section seems to be overwhelmed by regular roleplaying, so even if someone put a recruitment thread there, it's likely to get buried pretty soon.

Here? That's probably where I would do it. You could also do it in central for lack of a better place. People who aren't interested in werewolf probably wouldn't see it, but I'm not sure how many of them pay attention to anything in here anyway. Things do tend to get dominated by werewolf.

There probably should be a sticky for that. But it is kinda hard to justify having a sticky if there are never any non-werewolf games going on. So chicken and egg problem I guess.

I think the solution most people seem to have come up with is just make a thread for the game and hope people notice there is a new thread.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've been doing a lot of cross-board promotion. There are players, but if you can't find them in your native area, and your advertisement and inviting has reached its point of diminished return, your option is to scout around for folks that might want to play, but aren't actually on this section.

Becoming an established member of several boards is a great way of unlocking the potential to be had in the great big elsewhere.

[Internet Flea]

There probably should be a sticky for that. But it is kinda hard to justify having a sticky if there are never any non-werewolf games going on. So chicken and egg problem I guess.

You could probably get away with using the Insanowar sticky, considering how rarely that game actually gets off the ground.

[Legato Endless]

I think the solution most people seem to have come up with is just make a thread for the game and hope people notice there is a new thread.

Of course the issue with that is just because you're active doesn't mean you check the forum itself. I'm on fairly regularly, but I don't bother checking Structured 90% of the time, since new threads are pretty infrequent. I just jump straight to my subscriptions, since any mafia announcements will be there anyways. A sticky for non-mafia games wouldn't eliminate our general participation problem, but it would get players like me to actually pay attention to the non WW games.

[Ramsus]

Well those suggestions make no sense in my case since I advertised my game in both the mentioned threads. Also clearly that's not the issue as you guys are talking about the topic and still haven't signed up for my game. It's totally fair for people to not be interested, I was just annoyed at the people who requested more RP stuff and knew I was making the game for that purpose and still didn't pay attention or feel like signing up.

Edit: One thing that I now notice might have been an issue is that Lex never updated my game on the schedule, so anyone looking just at that wouldn't have the link and would mistakenly have thought it wasn't recruiting yet.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you don't mind me venturing an opinion, Ramsus, I find a direct approach more helpful.

You mentioned earlier that you don't really do invites, but what you're saying now is more like a.... like, an open invitation to all, it's sort of an invite, but it's almost...

Passive-aggressive? I'm sure that's not your intent, but it's a roundabout indirect way of trying to accomplish the same thing as an invite.

It won't work on many people. In fact, some might welcome a personal invite, so they know you specifically want them in the game, and then you'd get a firm "no" which may be what you're looking to get from them. And although it is less direct the way you're going about it, it may feel more confrontational than a simple invitation, ironically.

Some may be slightly put off by the indirect way you're going about it. It's all about the networking, it's a skill set that really helps gain participants, and if not done correctly can limit your potential.

It's possible we've overstated the demand for RP heavy games, or the RPers are less active at the present time, perhaps taking a break or trying new things elsewhere and not wanting to divide their time. Nothing to take too personally. You'll never know unless you ask.

[Ramsus]

Instead of jumping to the conclusion I'm being passive aggressive maybe you should have considered I was just discussing the topic?

As for your suggestion, I don't have a convenient list of who is and isn't active right now and I don't much feel like PMing 40 or so people so that I can manage to maybe get the one person in that number that is still around, has any interest in my game, and somehow is both those things but hasn't checked for new threads or this thread or werewolf central for new games in several weeks. Maybe if I was as super amazing as you are or whatever I would know a list of active people from different places who would join things I run just because I'm me. But I'm not you and I don't have a list like that so "networking" isn't going to help me since all the potentially interested people I know of are already members of this forum and have in the past made their interest in things clear by paying attention for games and signing up to the ones they're interested in. In the few occasions I have heard of people PMing people, it's to get those last few people they need, not the entire group of players as you're suggesting.

[Zack]

Instead of jumping to the conclusion I'm being passive aggressive maybe you should have considered I was just discussing the topic?

As for your suggestion, I don't have a convenient list of who is and isn't active right now and I don't much feel like PMing 40 or so people so that I can manage to maybe get the one person in that number that is still around, has any interest in my game, and somehow is both those things but hasn't checked for new threads or this thread or werewolf central for new games in several weeks. Maybe if I was as super amazing as you are or whatever I would know a list of active people from different places who would join things I run just because I'm me. But I'm not you and I don't have a list like that so "networking" isn't going to help me since all the potentially interested people I know of are already members of this forum and have in the past made their interest in things clear by paying attention for games and signing up to the ones they're interested in. In the few occasions I have heard of people PMing people, it's to get those last few people they need, not the entire group of players as you're suggesting.

Pizza was simply trying to give friendly, helpful advice. You're taking offense to a tiny part of his post taken out of context and ranting at him because of it (in a passive-aggressive manner, ironically).

[Askthepizzaguy]

Okay. I was being polite, so now I'll just be direct.

Instead of jumping to the conclusion I'm being passive aggressive maybe you should have considered I was just discussing the topic?

I didn't jump to any conclusion. It's pretty clear what you're doing.

@People who complained about a lack of roleplaying: You kind of lose your right to complain when someone makes a game where roleplaying is essentially how you play the game and you don't even sign up for it, let alone try to get other people to. It's not like you're going to get more people to run roleplaying focused games when you make it clear that it's just a total waste of effort.

This post takes a dig at people for not signing up, and digs at them for complaining about something, and puts blame on them for you not getting sign-ups, particularly the bolded part.

It's not just slightly passive aggressive, but I was doing you a favor and giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I don't immediately assume the worst in people, but these kind of digs, do.

Always seemed weird to me to PM people I know are around and should have seen my thread already if they cared to join. I understand PMing people who I don't think would have noticed, but I can't think of any that haven't flat out left the forum or such.

A suggestion was offered to help you achieve your goal, and you dismissed it out of hand. That's fine, it's your prerogative to do so.

Well, I don't actually complain about it but I do enjoy role playing, so I'm not sure if you're referring to me. Either way, I may as well explain: I pretty much just didn't notice the game.

Here's a person who is one of your potential players stating outright that they didn't see your game.

They're also questioning whether or not you were taking a dig at them. This is how potential players are going to feel about your dig.

(Take with a grain of salt, coming from someone who start started hanging around the forums again recently) I think the issue is just that it's sometimes hard for players to find the games or players just might miss it.

Seems fairly clear to me what the issue was.

Well those suggestions make no sense in my case since I advertised my game in both the mentioned threads. Also clearly that's not the issue as you guys are talking about the topic and still haven't signed up for my game. It's totally fair for people to not be interested, I was just annoyed at the people who requested more RP stuff and knew I was making the game for that purpose and still didn't pay attention or feel like signing up.

Inviting someone to play your game > feeling slighted that they didn't join and blaming them for your lack of sign-ups.

Sugar > Vinegar.

As for your suggestion, I don't have a convenient list of who is and isn't active right now and I don't much feel like PMing 40 or so people so that I can manage to maybe get the one person in that number that is still around, has any interest in my game, and somehow is both those things but hasn't checked for new threads or this thread or werewolf central for new games in several weeks.

Then you have not made much of an effort to obtain the list of players you seek, and are still looking to blame people.

Maybe if I was as super amazing as you are

More passive-aggressiveness. If you're snotty to people, why would they want to play games with you or join your games?

I'm speaking for myself, here, but this is the way you treat the people who are around you in this community, and it's been going on for quite a while.

You always seek to blame others and seek apologies for things that you yourself do to others, and play wounded when you get as good as you give. But it's not going to fly with me. I won't tiptoe around you.

I'm telling you directly that you should knock it off.

In the few occasions I have heard of people PMing people, it's to get those last few people they need, not the entire group of players as you're suggesting.

Last I checked, you only needed a few more to get to your stated minimum of 15.

If you're going to give excuses for yourself to not bother trying to accomplish your goal, but you are going to blame an entire community for not flocking to your game, I don't know what to tell you, Ramsus, other than maybe you should try self-examination.

Some people try to help you and you basically slap them in the face. It's not cute.

[Legato Endless]

In fact, some might welcome a personal invite, so they know you specifically want them in the game, and then you'd get a firm "no" which may be what you're looking to get from them.

It's possible we've overstated the demand for RP heavy games, or the RPers are less active at the present time, perhaps taking a break or trying new things elsewhere and not wanting to divide their time. Nothing to take too personally. You'll never know unless you ask.

Pizza is frankly underselling this point. People want to be asked. They're people who won't join regardless, and there are people who will jump without prompting, but there's a fuzzy unknowable center of the uninformed, the undecided and the apathetic. A direct invitation can quash the first two. A personalized invitation can occasionally vanquish the third.

As for your suggestion, I don't have a convenient list of who is and isn't active right now and I don't much feel like PMing 40 or so people so that I can manage to maybe get the one person in that number that is still around, has any interest in my game, and somehow is both those things but hasn't checked for new threads or this thread or werewolf central for new games in several weeks.

If you're not going to do something mildy inconvenient to drum up interest, people aren't going to inconvenience themselves to join.

Pizzaguy didn't need to invite me to play Toystory, I would have joined anyway for an alluring new game design. But the fact that he asked me solidified my interest in future endeavors. He thinks this is worth my time. As he's a bright individual, I'm inclined to suss out whether this is true.

As for your game, I'm inundated by other matters, so I'm not joining anything that puts me over my self imposed 1 game limit till life cools off. I committed to Zack's new game, but a big selling point for that was the fact that it explicitly begins after the one I'm in ends, whereas your's looks to possibly overlapping. Also I'm a sucker for the epic power brawls of mafia since I haven't really gotten a chance to cut my teeth in one yet.

Had you specifically invited me, I might have done your's since I knew about it first, as I'm obviously watching the thread and think the premise is charming enough.

[Ramsus]

This is a response to Legato only, as as far as I can tell Zack and Pizza have already violated the rules and I feel that further engaging them at this time would be bad for everyone.

The game I'm offering to run involves a lot of work on my part. As such, I don't feel like I should have to resort to PMing people when other games don't have to do so. And they shouldn't be expected to have to either. The narrator is doing the players a favor by running a game, not the other way around. If you'll only play games when people personally ask you to, well that's not a very healthy attitude imo.

As for your particular case, that would have involved me being able to read your mind in order to figure that out as far as I can tell.

Also there's the concern that for the game I'll be running, I need people who are truly interested and will be active. People who join just because they were asked but aren't interested enough to join up just because they thought it would be fun are more likely to autolynch and with the setup I'm doing, that would be potentially more harmful than them just not signing up to begin with.

So perhaps I could get more bodies to fill up space doing something I've already said repeatedly that I don't want to do, but that would be just as likely to detract from the fun of the game. Which violates the entire point as it' supposed to be a fun game for actively engaged people to roleplay in.

[Aventine]

The game I'm offering to run involves a lot of work on my part. As such, I don't feel like I should have to resort to PMing people when other games don't have to do so. And they shouldn't be expected to have to either. The narrator is doing the players a favor by running a game, not the other way around. If you'll only play games when people personally ask you to, well that's not a very healthy attitude imo.

Woah, I can't believed that I didn't notice this before now. This is looks like the sort of game I love. I am so in.

Either way, I may as well explain: I pretty much just didn't notice the game.

Ramsus, look at those two quotes. This isn't a question of principle. There aren't people who know your game exists and are refusing to join because you didn't take the time to ask them personally. People didn't see it. That's nobody's fault, but it's true. It happened. You can either send out PMs, which admittedly is a pain, or you can have the game fail to get enough people. I pretty much guarantee that if you send out PMs there will be at least one more person that is excited to join and simply didn't see the game.


Also, as much as you don't want to hear this, I would recommend you reread Pizza's post. Pizza is a good guy and is trying to be genuinely helpful. If you can read what he said with an open mind and really understand what he is saying and why, then I 100% guarantee that you will be happier for it.

[Ramsus]

Hmmmm. I can see you have a point, but I'd like to at least let the weekend pass before I have to resort to doing so as I really have no idea where to even start with compiling a list of currently active players since it seems like a few people specifically stated they're taking a break recently and some others have just vanished. Also considering this now has wound up taking up a page or so of this thread, enough people who missed it might notice in a day or two and maybe I won't have to bother. *shrugs*
Edit: Also I'd have to go through the extra effort of trying to weed out people likely to autolynch from my list and that really increases the effort involved. And I'd have to do that otherwise I'm sabotaging the game.

As for what Pizza said (not gonna touch Zack's post with a 10 foot poll)... Well I tried to look at it objectively in the first place. Since you suggested so, I did so again. And I still come away with the conclusion that it's really not a good idea to further engage him about this as it would be hard in a longer conversation to keep separate the things worth responding to and the things I'm fairly certain are against the rules or would directly lead to rule violations if discussed. As for your opinion on his character and his motives.... *shrug* I think there were many other ways he could have gone about it. (I'm just assuming for the sake of time, sanity, and avoiding obvious drama we're not going to get into a discussion on each person's definition of "good".)

[Legato Endless]

The narrator is doing the players a favor by running a game, not the other way around.

No, both parties are showing the other favor, by spending their time on the activity. The Narrator is more invested, ultimately responsible, and deserves player appreciation for making the experience possible. But they aren't gracing us with their presence. They're doing something so that everyone, themselves included, can enjoy. I've seen a lot of real life tabletop game masters abandoned. Players are a blessing in any suitably obscure hobby.

The game I'm offering to run involves a lot of work on my part. As such, I don't feel like I should have to resort to PMing people when other games don't have to do so.

No it isn't fair to you. But that's a reality that must be accepted. If I really want something, I'll go after it even if I have to put more effort into it than others. It's annoying, but that's life.

If you'll only play games when people personally ask you to, well that's not a very healthy attitude imo.

No one does that here though. It's not about what you'll play, it's about what you might play.

As for your particular case, that would have involved me being able to read your mind in order to figure that out as far as I can tell.

No, all you need to know is the following:

Do I have enough people? No.

Well okay...Who's active that hasn't joined?

Spend 5 minutes checking the Pub and Central, then browse the sign up list of the two or three most recent WW game. Mass message these people. (personal pms aren't needed here, since there doesn't appear to be anyone you have your heart set on)

Takes about another 5 minutes, depending on Internet connection. Done.

If that doesn't work, go to the thread for cross-mafia games, and advertise your game there. If that fails, ask us here to network for you. Be shameless about this.

This will take about 20 minutes to maybe an hour cumulatively per feedback. You're odds of getting another player will have definitely improved.

Also there's the concern that for the game I'll be running, I need people who are truly interested and will be active. People who join just because they were asked but aren't interested enough to join up just because they thought it would be fun are more likely to autolynch and with the setup I'm doing, that would be potentially more harmful than them just not signing up to begin with.

So perhaps I could get more bodies to fill up space doing something I've already said repeatedly that I don't want to do, but that would be just as likely to detract from the fun of the game. Which violates the entire point as it' supposed to be a fun game for actively engaged people to roleplay in.

That's understandable, but since this is a dry season, you're basically going to have to take some risks to get what you want.

[Zack]

as far as I can tell Zack ... have already violated the rules and I feel that further engaging them at this time would be bad for everyone.

(not gonna touch Zack's post with a 10 foot poll)...

Huh?

[Ramsus]

@Legato: Ok I did state the narrator's side of things a little too strongly. Though that is mostly how I view it as both a player and a narrator. As for tabletop games... just pardon me while I go to a corner and cry about how difficult it is to get one off the ground and not implode in a week or two.

I think you made the making a list thing too simple though. There are active people who aren't active in either thread and I can't just assume offhand without checking that everyone who posts in either doesn't autolynch frequently.

As for asking other people to do it for me? Maybe I'm just wrong but I can't imagine that not creating drama instead of achieving the goal, so I never even considered doing it, nor had the idea even crossed my mind. And considering the ways it could work out, it still seems most likely to end poorly.

[Aventine]

As for asking other people to do it for me? Maybe I'm just wrong but I can't imagine that not creating drama instead of achieving the goal, so I never even considered doing it, nor had the idea even crossed my mind. And considering the ways it could work out, it still seems most likely to end poorly.

I don't see any potential drama. All you gotta do is say "hey Zack, you're currently recruiting for a game on cfc right? Anybody over there you think might enjoy a non-traditional and roleplay-focused game? Send them my way. Thanks. Oh, and inactivity would be particularly problematic in this game so don't send over anyone too flaky." Drama-free.


Also, Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the fact that I am most likely going to be getting busier in the near future so I am not confident I will have to time to dedicate to another game for a while I would be all over that. Man, it's hard to resist just saying "f it" and joining.

[Zack]

I don't see any potential drama. All you gotta do is say "hey Zack, you're currently recruiting for a game on cfc right? Anybody over there you think might enjoy a non-traditional and roleplay-focused game? Send them my way. Thanks. Oh, and inactivity would be particularly problematic in this game so don't send over anyone too flaky." Drama-free.

I can't speak for others, but you don't even need to ask me -- feel free to go ahead and just make a post in that sign-up thread, or any thread for a game I'm hosting, advertising your game. Though in this case you don't have a CFC account, so it could make you look like a spambot.

[BourgeoisJerry]

I don't have any particular opinion regarding invitations, but I do have a different suggestion for the next time you run a game.

My latest "Ramsus why gods why!?" game, Core Component is now recruiting, possibly in record time for mod approval as I only posted it up a few hours ago. Anyway, tell your friends.

Lex, you can add Core Component to recruiting and stuffs now.

Next time, there should be a sentence or two about what the game is going to be like in at least one of your announcements, especially if the name is something like Core Component. I could just as easily imagine a "Core Component" game that's sci-fi themed and focused on mechanics. The name didn't really tell me anything.

Sometimes when I come to this board I have a good amount of free time, and sometimes I've only got a few minutes and I'm just logging on to see if the night phase has started in Careless Investigation so I can send in my action. Keeping up with the Pub and Central doesn't take too much time, but opening posts tend to be kind of large, so I don't bother looking at them unless I have plenty of free time at the moment, which I didn't have at the time the game was announced. If you had said anything about the heavy focus on role playing, I would have made a note to myself to look it up later. Unfortunately, the announcement didn't really make any impression at all, so I immediately forgot about it.

[Ramsus]

BJ.... you are signed up for my game. *stares*

Edit: Sent out a boatload of PMs. TFT's inbox is full.

[Saposhiente]

BJ.... you are signed up for my game. *stares*

"Your recruitment/advertisement strategy was ineffective because..." is not "I didn't sign up for your game because..."