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2015-06-04, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Yes, I know there's a thread on this already, but it seems to be too old to post in
I was running D&D 3.5 for my brother, and I decided he should fight a group of adventurers, one of which was a fang dragon in disguise.
Looking at the fang dragon's block more closely after the encounter, I saw something horrifying.
Wyrmling fang dragon. CR2. CONSTITUTION DRAIN 1d2 with an additional d6 bite damage and d4 per claw.
Constitution drain at CR2!
What are the most overpowered monsters you've fought or seen?
EDIT: Added original thread to the post
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2015-06-04, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Last edited by Asrrin; 2015-06-04 at 04:18 PM.
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2015-06-04, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Any CR 1-2 undead draining levels
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2015-06-04, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
may I introduce you to the true horror of early ability damage?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stirge
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2015-06-04, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Adamantine Horror, MM2.
It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.
These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.
It's CR 9.Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2015-06-04, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-04, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Mine started in a Dwarven church of Pelor, now with a moon!
Also, note to self, sacrificing KFC in a small apartment is not a good idea.
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2015-06-04, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
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2015-06-04, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
That one may be bad, but the other two SLAs are worse. At CL 14, disintegrate is 28d6 damage (98 average, enough to one-shot most 9th-level characters), with a save DC of 21, but the real kicker is Implosion, with its Fortitude save DC of 24. Looking at the sample NPCs in the DMG, the earliest anyone even has a 50% chance of making that save is level 14 (that's the Paladin; Fighter and Barbarian also get to +14 by levels 19 and 20, but nobody else ever does).
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2015-06-04, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Warrior 4 armed with a spiked chain. Colossal size, 30 ft. reach (60 ft. with spiked chain), 3 natural weapons (3d6 each). Colossal spiked chain deals 8d6 damage. It's a CR 1 creature by the book.
EDIT: With the Improved Dragon Wings feat, it also has a flight speed of 80 ft. (clumsy), even though it can only fly for Con modifier rounds consecutively.Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2015-06-04 at 05:09 PM.
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Kitchen Crashers: an adventure building Iron Chef - First edition running 20/04/18-18/05/18.
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2015-06-04, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-04, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
shadows.
there's no way you can realistically have a way of dealing with incorporeal monsters at level 3, much less mitigate the ability damage they do to you or rez your friends when they are inevitably killed.
none of the changes he listed alter CR, so it would indeed be a CR 1 since npc classes follow different rules for CR, and warrior is not an associated class for kobolds, further deflating its CR value. the question is where is colossal coming fromLast edited by Venger; 2015-06-04 at 04:48 PM.
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2015-06-04, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Just hire a CE soulborn. They can't exactly to anything else with their class features
There's a chart in Draconomicon or some other dragon-related book that links dragon size category to age category (as in, age determines size), and it doesn't specify true dragon IIRC, so it applies to dragonwrought kobolds regardless of the are-they-true-dragons debate. It's one of Uncle Pine's favorite tricks, from the posts of his that I've seen.Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2015-06-04, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Oh, we can do worse than that. The Allip, at the same CR, reads like someone saw the shadow and thought "you know, this needs to be more capable of handily murdering a party".
Its statblock is overall very similar to the shadow, except that it does Wisdom drain instead of Strength damage, it can't create spawn, and it regains 5 hp every time it hits with its touch attack. It also has more health than the shadow and a higher AC, in addition to an effect that denies actions to PCs who fail a will save upon hearing it.
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2015-06-04, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
still deals incorporeal touch damage. since the soulborn can't get him back, shadow will still kill him.
There's a chart in Draconomicon or some other dragon-related book that links dragon size category to age category (as in, age determines size), and it doesn't specify true dragon IIRC, so it applies to dragonwrought kobolds regardless of the are-they-true-dragons debate. It's one of Uncle Pine's favorite tricks, from the posts of his that I've seen.
1) DWK are not true dragons
2) only true dragons have those age categories
3) non-true dragon dragons, like ambush drake, advance normally, so too would a DWK.
4) it certainly is
allips do have drain instead of damage, however they have no attack and thus no power to kill you on their own. when you reach 0 wis, you don't die or rise as spawn, you just black out.
in tandem with literally anything else, they are deadly, but alone they're a mere annoyance.Last edited by Venger; 2015-06-04 at 05:04 PM.
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2015-06-04, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3. Dragonwrought Kobolds, true or not, are Dragons and use true dragon's age categories per RotD. Thus, a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great wyrm dragon. ELH, under "Dragon, Advanced", states that dragons gain a "virtual age category" for every 3 HDs they gain beyond the great wyrm stage. As it's impossible to be a great wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold before 1st level (you need the Dragonwrought feat to qualify as a Dragon), a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold gains a "virtual age category" at 4th, 7th, 10th, etc. levels. ELH also divides dragons in lesser (Tiny as a wyrmling), ordinary (Small as a wyrmling, never reaches Colossal), greater (Small to Large as a wyrmling, reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage), or epic (force, prismatic). Clearly Dragonwrought Kobolds are in the ordinary group, as a wyrmling Dragonwrought Kobold is Small and it never reaches Colossal size. In the same paragraph, it's stated that an ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. Thus, a Dragonwrought Kobold that reached the great wyrm stage (Venerable) at 1st level becomes Colossal at 4th level. This is not all: a dragon also gets other goodies for each HD it gains beyond the great wyrm stage, most notably +1 natural armor/HD, +2 Str and +2 Con/virtual age category and +2 Int, +2 Wis and +2 Cha/2 age categories. Also, since it's stated that when a dragon becomes Colossal its flight speed increases by +50 ft. and its maneuverability becomes clumsy and I forgot about that, if I give to the aforementioned kobold the Improved Dragon Wings (either at 1st level with a flaw or at 3rd level, remember that a Dragon automatically qualifies for every feat that requires the Dragonblood subtype), at 4th level it'll have a flight speed of 80 ft. (clumsy). I'll edit my previous post to include that.
Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2015-06-14 at 09:23 AM.
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Kitchen Crashers: an adventure building Iron Chef - First edition running 20/04/18-18/05/18.
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2015-06-04, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
1) That's disputable; I happen to agree with you but it can't be proven either way.
2) If you could give me the location of the chart I'll believe you. I can't find it in Draconomicon.
3) You're right about non-true dragons, but that's because they don't have draconic age categories. You're wrong about kobolds, though. Races of the Dragon, p. 39, Kobold Age Categories. Any kobold uses the draconic age categories, but DWKs, by virtue of having the dragon type and having draconic age categories, have their size linked to their age.Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-04 at 05:11 PM.
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2015-06-04, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Perhaps, but on the other hand it deals drain a lot faster than PCs can recover naturally, and its combat description claims it will continue to flail away at enemies relentlessly. It's undead and never needs to sleep or stop. So anyone who blacks out is likely to stay that way until they starve to death unless they get lucky and someone rescues them.
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2015-06-04, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2015-06-04 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Edited 1)
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2015-06-04, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
1)right but the burden of proof is on proDWK people to prove they are dragons, not for antiDWK to prove that they're not
2) sure, I'll look for it and post a page number. I think it's either in draconomicon or monsters of faerun.
3) oh ok, I misunderstood
1) I'm so glad you said that. I agree
2) ok
3)see 1
4) it certainly is one of your favorite tricks, as extra anchovies said.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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2015-06-04, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2015-06-04, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
3) There's nothing to debate about that, ELH specifically states how dragons grow beyond the great wyrm stage. If a dragon doesn't have age categories it doesn't follow those rules. If a dragon has them, it does. It also says HD, not "racial HD", so the rules apply to all the dragon's HD beyond great wyrm. It also has nothing to do with 1), because "true" dragons are never mentioned.
Oh yes, it certainly is. But for some reason I couldn't connect 4) to your statement when I first read the post, silly me!Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2015-06-04 at 05:34 PM.
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2015-06-04, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
For other stuff I'm aware of, at least in core, there's the Spider Swarm, whose CR 1 classification is very misleading, since it's very likely to handily murder level 1 characters unless they're carrying Alchemists Fire or something else effective against it. The various types of Hydra are also notable for being rather murderous for their CR, particularly the Pyro- and Cryo- variants which are fully capable of spamming breath weapons from all of their heads as free actions every few turns.
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2015-06-04, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Since the first thread wasn't linked I figured I would, a bunch of them haven't been mentioned yet.
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2015-06-04, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Regarding Shadows and Allips: remember, every monster was balanced with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue in mind, and everyone else was ignored. Having turn undead really helps against those guys, unless your DM is cruel and has them return after the fear wears off.
Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-06-04 at 05:51 PM.
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2015-06-04, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
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2015-06-04, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2015-06-04, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
Shouldn't you be at least level 13 before attempting the clockwork horde? The adamantine horror probably shouldn't be attempted at level 9 due to the massive amount of chaff that comes with it.
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2015-06-04, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2015-06-04, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!
even taking that into account, assuming that all parties are half T1, they both have turn resistance, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
no one plays spirit shaman.
that's not the problem, though. obviously if the DM knows what he's doing, this won't be an issue. if the DM is new and has faith in the CR system, uses a generator, or plays a module, it's very likely that they'll accidentally throw a monster their party can't meaningfully affectI've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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