Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[tomandtish]

A Spider in the Web

Bureau 13-This is an aborted arc. I guess it was going to go somewhere, but someone threatened to sue over the name. Might be a good thing...we have the shadow war coming...and the Earthgov Clark administration is all ready an evil, shadow deep state government...do we really need another?

No suit, but they did realize there was a potential problem.

No, the Bureau 13 rpg precedes our show; we weren't aware of it at the time we did the episode. We hadn't heard of the Bureau 13 game when we did the episode, it was just something we came up with 'cause it sounded neat. Later, we found out there was a game by that name. At which point I decided that it wouldn't be appropriate to use that name again, and had a good conversation with some folks at the game company about it. There was no problem, I just didn't want to walk on their turf intentionally or otherwise. Logically, any secret group is going to change its name from time to time *anyway* (it's not like they're in the yellow pages or anything), so the organization would remain under varying names.

Neutral Space-so again we are told B5 is in ''neutral space'', except the station and sector are under Earth government law. So, it's not exactly ''neutral''.

More "neutral" as in an open port. Sheridan even defines it himself. Anyone can negotiate there as long as they don't break the laws.

Talia's Defense- To protect herself Talia mindscans(?) the guy to go away? Guess she forgot she could cause people telepatic pain, like we saw her do before....

Actually, we don't know what she was going to do. Entering his mind triggered the images, and he broke off the attack because of the shock. She may not have needed to do more because of that. And given what's happened to his mind, she may not be able to do more.

The Flashback Memory ''cruiser''- Ok, so, sure Talia does not know what the ''big ship'' she sees in the memory and says she ''thinks it's a cruiser''. But then Garibaldi and the computer TV record both say ''cruiser''. Odd...the flashback shows an omega class destroyer.

Since he's supposed to be dead and isn't (anymore anyway), it's certainly possible that the record has been altered to indicate another ship in order to cover a back trail. There's nothing to indicate Garibaldi sees a picture of the ship. He's just going off the record, which appears to be text only except for the picture of Horn. They've programmed a cyborg assassin to kill for them, so changing a few computer records isn't a big deal. After all, the telepath who worked on him is allegedly dead as well, according to the computer.

[Rodin]

More "neutral" as in an open port. Sheridan even defines it himself. Anyone can negotiate there as long as they don't break the laws.

I always read the neutral space as being outside the borders of any existing nation/race. Rather than being located within Earth Alliance territory, it's built in an area of space nobody has claimed around an uninhabited planet.

[Rakaydos]

[
San Diego Wastelands- So some terrorists in the B5 universe blew up San Diego....interesting.

The Terrorist Nuking of San Diego is referenced several times in the series. It's never quite plot relevant, but it's more a refernce to "It's been 250 years, stuff has happened that a 21st century TV watcher wouldnt already know about."

Earliest reference I remember off the top of my head is when the narn attack the centauri in season 1- "If there's one thing we humans have learned from (event, event, event), it's that the sneak attack is the first option of the coward."

[tomandtish]

I always read the neutral space as being outside the borders of any existing nation/race. Rather than being located within Earth Alliance territory, it's built in an area of space nobody has claimed around an uninhabited planet.

It's under their jurisdiction and on the border between Eath Republic and Centauri Empire.

Sector 919: Euphrates Sector. Located adjacent to the Tigris Sector and officially recognized as neutral territory though under the jurisdiction of the Earth Alliance. Situated in Grid Epsilon this sector contains the planets Euphrates, Epsilon III and Station Babylon 5. The most dangerous alien in the sector is know to be the Zarg. During the Earth-Minbari War an old Earth listening post and former Drazi Colony in the Epsilon system was the site of a failed secret meeting between representatives from Earth and Minbar.

So B5 itself is a little like a futuristic UN and closer to an example of Extraterritoriality that all parties have agreed to. Earth runs/maintains it and provides security, but it is open to everyone not actually engaged in hostilities with Earth (a plot point later in the season).

[Darth Ultron]

Soul Mates

Londo's three wives and Talia's former husband visit the station.

Mariel, Londo's third wife is young and pretty...a lot like Adeara the dancer.

Blink and you will Miss Him- The Trader is played by Carel Struycken. who played Lwaxana Troi's valet Mr. Homn on Star Trek: The Next Generation and has been in lots of movies and TV shows as a ''big, tall, monster man''.

Things that don't make Sense

Museum-B5 has a 20th century museum? Seems kinda odd. And it has a Centauri display?

Statue Trap-the statue has some sort of Centauri detector? Even more so one that only detects male Centauri? Or even just Londo?

Mismatch- So G'Kar and Mariel have an affair/relationship? Seems like a real odd couple. Sure G'Kar...somehow...likes women of all races...but Centauri ?!? He really dislikes Centauri...or does like he only want to kill the Centauri men?

Evil Plot?- Well the episode never says. Like did Mariel and G'Kar have a relationship all ready? And did Mariel find out about the divorce in a bed chamber somewhere? So she came up with the plan of killing Londo so she'd get her 1/3 of everything? So Mariel..somehow, in some impossible way gets in contact with Stoner who has a Statue of Death that he really did find or some perfect fake papers and cover. So Mariel hires him and has him go to the station and sell the Statue of Death. Then she comes to the station, goes shopping and buys the Statue of Death. Then she ''innocently'' wraps it up and gives it as a gift. And G'Kar is a part of it, maybe?

An empath- Everyone calls Stoner an empath? Not sure that fits. Stoner can use telepathic suggestion on others...and that is not exactly feeling or projecting emotions. And Stoner was another attempt to change telepaths. But the loss of all other telepath abilities for the weak slow ability to suggests things to people, does not seem so great.

Centauri Liner- So the wives ship is small enough to land on B5? Not a very big ''liner'' then...

Final-B, a mostly, light funny episode...but you can't go far wrong with a Londo episode.

[Rodin]

Mismatch- So G'Kar and Mariel have an affair/relationship? Seems like a real odd couple. Sure G'Kar...somehow...likes women of all races...but Centauri ?!? He really dislikes Centauri...or does like he only want to kill the Centauri men?

More like a one night stand. It's established that G'kar will sleep with pretty much anyone, but in this particular case it's pretty clear he's doing it to spite Londo. I suspect Mariel is doing it for the same reasons, given how much Londo and his wives hate each other.

[tomandtish]

More like a one night stand. It's established that G'kar will sleep with pretty much anyone, but in this particular case it's pretty clear he's doing it to spite Londo. I suspect Mariel is doing it for the same reasons, given how much Londo and his wives hate each other.

Yeah, he has the chance to screw Londo (so to speak), so he's going to take it.

Soul Mates Evil Plot?- Well the episode never says. Like did Mariel and G'Kar have a relationship all ready? And did Mariel find out about the divorce in a bed chamber somewhere? So she came up with the plan of killing Londo so she'd get her 1/3 of everything? So Mariel..somehow, in some impossible way gets in contact with Stoner who has a Statue of Death that he really did find or some perfect fake papers and cover. So Mariel hires him and has him go to the station and sell the Statue of Death. Then she comes to the station, goes shopping and buys the Statue of Death. Then she ''innocently'' wraps it up and gives it as a gift. And G'Kar is a part of it, maybe?

Actually, it's very subtle but even Londo alludes to this regarding Mariel...

Londo: "On Earth you have these creatures – insects attracted to flames?"

Sheridan: "Uh, yes. Moths. They're drawn to flames and bright lights and get burned."

Londo: "Mariel is drawn to men of power in that same way. But trust me. She burns them!"

Sh she may have decided to kill him before learning about the divorce (after all, she still gets 1/3 of everything). G'Kar accuses her of the assassination, and she doesn't deny it. And the quote explains why she sleeps with G'Kar. He's in a position of power as well, so it never hurts to have a friendly Narn.

G'Kar: "Do not underestimate him. If I could figure it out, so could he".

Mariel: "G'Kar. A Pleasure as always".

G'Kar: "I warn you Mariel, do not be overconfident. If I was married to Londo Mollari I'd be concerned".

Mariel: "G'Kar, if you were married to Londo, we'd all be concerned".

Remember, there's no real love there (although maybe there's some fondness buried deep, DEEP down in Timov). These were all political marriages. Based on Londo's comments, he'd have been quite happy to get rid of all three if the Emperor would have let him. And it's obvious they know it.

The Legion of Fire trilogy (which is considered canon) actually expands on Mariel,, who has no real emotion at all and is quite willing to kill to get what she wants.

[Daimbert]

Soul Mates

Statue Trap-the statue has some sort of Centauri detector? Even more so one that only detects male Centauri? Or even just Londo?

Did Mariel ever actually touch the unwrapped statue? And I thought it was at least implied that it was a standard sabotage tactic of the Narn (although that might have been something else).

Mismatch- So G'Kar and Mariel have an affair/relationship? Seems like a real odd couple. Sure G'Kar...somehow...likes women of all races...but Centauri ?!? He really dislikes Centauri...or does like he only want to kill the Centauri men?

As others have said, his having an affair with Londo's wife would be incredibly appealing to him, and Mariel would see the same appeal, as well as the attempt to gain power.

And did Mariel find out about the divorce in a bed chamber somewhere?

Despite Londo's hopes that it would be a surprise, remember that Daggair ALSO knew about it beforehand. Only Timov -- who doesn't play politics -- didn't know.

So Mariel..somehow, in some impossible way gets in contact with Stoner who has a Statue of Death that he really did find or some perfect fake papers and cover. So Mariel hires him and has him go to the station and sell the Statue of Death. Then she comes to the station, goes shopping and buys the Statue of Death. Then she ''innocently'' wraps it up and gives it as a gift.

Mariel plays politics very well, and so has a lot of contacts. Once she found out, it wouldn't be hard for her to make arrangements to find some way of innocently killing Londo off, and this was the plan they came up with. Stoner is clearly involved in some shady dealings, and so ends up being the courier here, likely with an ulterior motive.

And G'Kar is a part of it, maybe?

Probably not directly, except maybe in terms of getting the item itself. Remember, he suspects that she knew what the statue would do, but if he was directly involved he wouldn't have to suspect.

An empath- Everyone calls Stoner an empath? Not sure that fits. Stoner can use telepathic suggestion on others...and that is not exactly feeling or projecting emotions. And Stoner was another attempt to change telepaths. But the loss of all other telepath abilities for the weak slow ability to suggests things to people, does not seem so great.

Where does he use telepathic suggestion to the point that wouldn't work as manipulating the person's emotions (making them friendlier, angry, etc)? There might be a case, but I can't remember it right now. Also, losing telepathic abilities for empathic abilities seems like a bad deal, sure, unless they can keep their empathic abilities while being undetectable as actual telepaths, at which point it becomes pretty powerful.

[Daimbert]

The Legion of Fire trilogy (which is considered canon) actually expands on Mariel,, who has no real emotion at all and is quite willing to kill to get what she wants.

And, yet, she ends up as a sympathetic character, although your mileage may vary.

[Darth Ultron]

Did Mariel ever actually touch the unwrapped statue? And I thought it was at least implied that it was a standard sabotage tactic of the Narn (although that might have been something else).

Really a 'male' Centauri does make sense, as even the Narns would not want to kill a woman. And Centauri are a split society on sex right.....we never see any female warriors or military.

Where does he use telepathic suggestion to the point that wouldn't work as manipulating the person's emotions (making them friendlier, angry, etc)? There might be a case, but I can't remember it right now. Also, losing telepathic abilities for empathic abilities seems like a bad deal, sure, unless they can keep their empathic abilities while being undetectable as actual telepaths, at which point it becomes pretty powerful.

Well, we don't really see him ''manipulate emotions'', it's more of a direct suggestion. He says ''give me 100 credits'' the target gives him 100 credits. Security Guard Lou does not seem to ''feel'' anything from the suggestions...he just did them.

And like when he tell Talia to run away with him, she just says ''ok'', but it does not seem like emotionally she has altered her whole state of mind to like Stoner....just that she does what he told her to do.

And I'm not sure Stoners abilities are so ''unique''. We see telepaths do things like ''make people think something is something so they do something'', so is that not like ''empathy?'' A telepath can make someone think ''the door is super hot'' so they won't touch it, for example.

[Rodin]

Really a 'male' Centauri does make sense, as even the Narns would not want to kill a woman. And Centauri are a split society on sex right.....we never see any female warriors or military.

I doubt this is the case. If the Narns had won the war they would have happily done to Centauri Prime what the Centauri did to Narn. G'Kar is principled enough to obey the rules of war but what we're shown of other Narns is that they're willing to do anything to destroy the Centauri. It's really only after G'kar becomes a religious figure in his own right that this starts to change.

Well, we don't really see him ''manipulate emotions'', it's more of a direct suggestion. He says ''give me 100 credits'' the target gives him 100 credits. Security Guard Lou does not seem to ''feel'' anything from the suggestions...he just did them.

And like when he tell Talia to run away with him, she just says ''ok'', but it does not seem like emotionally she has altered her whole state of mind to like Stoner....just that she does what he told her to do.

And I'm not sure Stoners abilities are so ''unique''. We see telepaths do things like ''make people think something is something so they do something'', so is that not like ''empathy?'' A telepath can make someone think ''the door is super hot'' so they won't touch it, for example.

Have to disagree here as well. Emotion-yanking his harder to portray on screen than direct telepathy, but those we see him manipulate suddenly become his best buddies. That's unlike anything we see elsewhere in the show. The closest thing is the brainwashing of Garibaldi, but that's pretty explicitly a personality laid over the top using a process like the assassin from this season.

Planting phantasms is a different effect - you couldn't manipulate someone into giving you a gift, but you can make them think the floor is on fire. Also, if I'm recalling correctly that required the concerted effort of multiple telepaths to even do that. It's screwing with perception, not emotion.

[Darth Ultron]

I doubt this is the case. If the Narns had won the war they would have happily done to Centauri Prime what the Centauri did to Narn. G'Kar is principled enough to obey the rules of war but what we're shown of other Narns is that they're willing to do anything to destroy the Centauri. It's really only after G'kar becomes a religious figure in his own right that this starts to change.

I disagree. We are shown the Narns as a very intelligent, honorable people. I can't see any Narn saying ''lets bomb the Centauri back to the stone age'' or doing things like ''the penalty is the death of 10,000 people including the person own family''. Did the Narns slaughter everyone at Rogash 3? No, they targeted the military things and then moved in. Even the Narn assassin guy was very polite...and was nothing like ''will killz you and your whole family..ahahah''. And no Narn captain would ever attack B5 for no real reason...like we will see soon. Sure we see some young Narns ''learn the wrong lesson'', but they are young.

I know it's cool to say and think ''everyone'' is the same, but I don't think the Narns and Centauri are the same, and the show shows this.

Have to disagree here as well. Emotion-yanking his harder to portray on screen than direct telepathy, but those we see him manipulate suddenly become his best buddies. That's unlike anything we see elsewhere in the show. The closest thing is the brainwashing of Garibaldi, but that's pretty explicitly a personality laid over the top using a process like the assassin from this season.

Planting phantasms is a different effect - you couldn't manipulate someone into giving you a gift, but you can make them think the floor is on fire. Also, if I'm recalling correctly that required the concerted effort of multiple telepaths to even do that. It's screwing with perception, not emotion.

I just don't see where he is effecting emotions. We never see it long enough to see if it's a charm person like effect that lasts a while...it sure seems like simple suggestion to me. Guess they could have done it better.

Well, it took many telepahs as most were P nothings, plus it also was not line of sight, if your thinking of the Telepath War.

And if you can make someone think the floor is on fire...you can make them think the floor is money soil and that if they plant their money in that soil it will grow into a money tree. Or if you want to nitpick ''that is not real'' they could be made to think a ''box'' is ''their bank/their safe spot to put money''.

[tomandtish]

I disagree. We are shown the Narns as a very intelligent, honorable people. I can't see any Narn saying ''lets bomb the Centauri back to the stone age'' or doing things like ''the penalty is the death of 10,000 people including the person own family''. Did the Narns slaughter everyone at Rogash 3? No, they targeted the military things and then moved in. Even the Narn assassin guy was very polite...and was nothing like ''will killz you and your whole family..ahahah''. And no Narn captain would ever attack B5 for no real reason...like we will see soon. Sure we see some young Narns ''learn the wrong lesson'', but they are young.

I know it's cool to say and think ''everyone'' is the same, but I don't think the Narns and Centauri are the same, and the show shows this.

At Ragash 3 the Narn attacked an agricultural colony and tortured a Centauri to force him to read a fake letter claiming they had "asked" for Narn help in dealing with raiders (the same raiders the Narn were actually supplying). And it's obvious G'Kar himself is aware of this and supports it. It's not until he has his crisis that he changes.

Some Narn are honorable. Not all. Just like some Centauri are, but not all. The Emperor of the Centauri at the moment turns out to actually be honorable, and it's gonna get him killed by those who aren;t and want a war.

[Rodin]

This is also the same "honorable people" that planned on murdering the entire Centauri population of Babylon 5, which consisted entirely of civilians who had nothing to do with the war. The same honorable people that opened fire on civilian transports around Babylon 5 because they believed (correctly, as it turns out) that said transports were also carrying weapons. Even G'kar planned on murdering Londo at one point.

A repeated theme in Babylon 5 is that neither race is better than the other. They're both so wrapped up in hatred for each other that it's causing great detriment to their society.

[Darth Ultron]

A Race Through Dark Places

The Psi Cop Bester visits the station searching for an underground railroad of rogue telepaths.

Dr. Franklin's Poor non-arc--Sigh, poor Doc Franklin. He almost gets something to do and an arc, for all most a whole episode. Then it's gone. Too bad they could not have given him the arc over a couple episodes, at least.

“In temple we spend one whole year studying humor.” I can’t imagine anything worse than Minbari humor training.

Things that don't Make Sense

The Rent Sub Plot- Ok, so it's sort of funny, but it does not make sense. How is it that only Sheridan and Ivanova have the executive quarters? Do Garabaldi and Dr. Franklin live in smaller quarters for some reason? Or does security and medical have special budgets apart from the command budget? B5 has a crew of what..thousands? Do they all pay rent? And in any case are not Sheridan and Ivanova's quarters in ''Blue Sector'' or otherwise a ''sector'' for ''Earth Force Command only'' ?

The far away Outer Colonies- So, um, why can't Psi Core go to the outer Colonies? As colonies they are still part of Earth right, and are subject to Earth Gov laws, right?

Ivanova's check the files- Um,Ivanova is all like ''check the files'' on Bester to Sheridan. But even if he did, he would just get the boring ''official'' file, right? He won't get the real details. The official file won't say ''we tricked Bester and forced him to do things our way'' right? So why does not Ivanova fill him in?

Telekinetic Talia- Oh, yea, remember how she is a telekinetic now?

Mind Blank Talia- Well, I guess her new protection power makes a false mind right, because Bester would know if he was being blocked or could not scan her, right?

The Telepathic Projection- It's odd Bester falls for this. The first big give away is ''Rambo Talia'', where she pulls out a PPG and slaughters people like a cold blooded killer. Bit of a stretch? Sure even if Bester ''does not know her'' I think the average five year old could tell you Talia is not a killer and has likely never shot a gun before ever. Also you have the problem of Bester's PPG. Like when he gets back to his quarters he'd discover he did not ''shoot any rounds'' or the ''power pack is full''.

Final-C, The show comes across as a trifling episode, a case-of-the-week affair where a villain shows up, causes a bit of chaos, forces the heroes to fix things, and the show reverts to the status quo.

[Rodin]

Things that don't Make Sense

The Rent Sub Plot- Ok, so it's sort of funny, but it does not make sense. How is it that only Sheridan and Ivanova have the executive quarters? Do Garabaldi and Dr. Franklin live in smaller quarters for some reason? Or does security and medical have special budgets apart from the command budget? B5 has a crew of what..thousands? Do they all pay rent? And in any case are not Sheridan and Ivanova's quarters in ''Blue Sector'' or otherwise a ''sector'' for ''Earth Force Command only'' ?

Sheridan and Ivanova are officers - Captain and Commander. Garibaldi doesn't have a rank that I can recall (he's always introduced as "Mr. Garibaldi" to Earth Force visitors). Dr. Franklin also doesn't have a rank given in the show that I know of, so he likely is outside the command structure too. I think the only other officer we see is Lieutenant Corwyn, and he presumably got charged rent by the order as well. Sheridan and Ivanova just don't know him as well so he doesn't get roped into the shenanigans. Presumably there are other officers as well who also got charged rent, but we don't see them.

Most of the crew are likely enlisted, and so would already have been in the smaller quarters. A lot of the dock workers and such appear to be private contractors, given the various negotiations we see throughout the show.

The far away Outer Colonies- So, um, why can't Psi Core go to the outer Colonies? As colonies they are still part of Earth right, and are subject to Earth Gov laws, right?

Think Firefly. The Outer Colonies would be further away from Earth's influence, far apart and difficult to search and quite possibly very rural. There are, what, 30 telepaths present on Babylon 5? They're not too hard to find on a space station, but when you have a dozen planets with spread out populations - where do you send your searchers? The locals will be even less likely to support the Psi Cops than Sheridan is. They're subject to the laws, and I'm sure they'll "help". They just won't do so very enthusiastically.

[tomandtish]

A Race Through Dark Places
The Rent Sub Plot- Ok, so it's sort of funny, but it does not make sense. How is it that only Sheridan and Ivanova have the executive quarters? Do Garabaldi and Dr. Franklin live in smaller quarters for some reason? Or does security and medical have special budgets apart from the command budget? B5 has a crew of what..thousands? Do they all pay rent? And in any case are not Sheridan and Ivanova's quarters in ''Blue Sector'' or otherwise a ''sector'' for ''Earth Force Command only'' ?

Remember, it's relocate or start paying rent. It doesn't surprise me that they reallocate space often in order to "maximize" efficiency (profit). Their quarters specifically have been deemed "too big". And that's fairly normal that the higher ranked you are, the bigger your quarters are. And it may be a case that as B5 becomes more popular, they need more crew. Resizing allows them to increase the number of crew quarters without cutting into other sectors.

You're right that Blue Sector is primarily for staff and official guests.

Spoiler: Sector descriptions: spoiled for space

Show

Blue Sector: Blue Sector comprised the forward segment of the rotating section and extended several kilometers aft to Red Sector, housing the maintenance and operational control centers, docking bays, customs, embarkation, the observation dome, the cobra bays and C&C as well as quarters for station personnel. Access to Blue Sector was mostly restricted to station personnel and official guests of the Earth Alliance.

Red Sector: Red Sector was the largest of the station's rotating sections and served as the station's commercial area. Businesses such as hotels, casinos, bars, restaurants, the Zócalo, and conference areas could be found here. Medlab, Security headquarters, and the Judiciary were also located in Red Sector. Access to Red Sector was unrestricted.

Green Sector: Green Sector, also known as the diplomatic sector, was restricted to diplomatic and command personnel. To accommodate the various diplomats and other guests, medlab facilities were also available in Green Sector. The presence of Green Sector could be ascertained outside the station via the bulge in the center of the carousel.

Brown Sector: Brown sector houses the industrial work that support the life support and waste reclamation facilities. It is located at the rear of the station's rotating section. It is located aft of Green Sector and fore of Grey Sector. Originally, it was intended to be a secondary commercial area like Red Sector, but went unfinished in the rush to complete construction.

Grey Sector: Grey Sector was the furthest section of the carousel aftward, just aft of Brown Sector. Atmosphere monitoring, the alpha power station, fabrication furnaces and maintenance facilities could be found here in the sector's 30 levels. Grey Sector's structure was incomplete due to budgetary restrictions. Due to the machinery, scans and communications were unreliable. Grey Sector access was restricted to command, security and maintenance personnel. Due to reports of missing persons and strange occurrences, Grey 17 was placed off-limits to all but security personnel.

Yellow Sector: The single largest segment of the station, Yellow Sector consisted of all of the zero-gravity sections of the station. The main body was the spinal cargo facility which managed zero-g cargo transfers and held the bulk of the station's supplies. It also housed certain facilities such as variable gravity research labs and zero-g maintenance. Aft of the carousel, a 3 km long, tubular section contained the primary fusion core and fuel tanks.[1] Yellow Sector connected to both Blue Sector and Gray Sector via the linkages that powered the station's rotation.

The far away Outer Colonies- So, um, why can't Psi Core go to the outer Colonies? As colonies they are still part of Earth right, and are subject to Earth Gov laws, right?

Think Firefly. The Outer Colonies would be further away from Earth's influence, far apart and difficult to search and quite possibly very rural. There are, what, 30 telepaths present on Babylon 5? They're not too hard to find on a space station, but when you have a dozen planets with spread out populations - where do you send your searchers? The locals will be even less likely to support the Psi Cops than Sheridan is. They're subject to the laws, and I'm sure they'll "help". They just won't do so very enthusiastically.

Rodin sums it up nicely, and JMS indicated this in a Q&A. It's not that PsiCorp can't go there, but that once they clear B5 and get into the outer colonies, tracking becomes so difficult as to be impossible unless someone really screw up.

Ivanova's check the files- Um,Ivanova is all like ''check the files'' on Bester to Sheridan. But even if he did, he would just get the boring ''official'' file, right? He won't get the real details. The official file won't say ''we tricked Bester and forced him to do things our way'' right? So why does not Ivanova fill him in?

She can tell him her perceptions, but this way he can get Sinclair's as well. The tricking may be out, but that Bester was playing fast and loose with rules and the safety of the station would still be good to know from multiple perspectives, not just Ivanova's own (since she's known to be biased).

[Darth Ultron]

Sheridan and Ivanova are officers - Captain and Commander. Garibaldi doesn't have a rank that I can recall (he's always introduced as "Mr. Garibaldi" to Earth Force visitors). Dr. Franklin also doesn't have a rank given in the show that I know of, so he likely is outside the command structure too. I think the only other officer we see is Lieutenant Corwyn, and he presumably got charged rent by the order as well. Sheridan and Ivanova just don't know him as well so he doesn't get roped into the shenanigans. Presumably there are other officers as well who also got charged rent, but we don't see them.

Most of the crew are likely enlisted, and so would already have been in the smaller quarters. A lot of the dock workers and such appear to be private contractors, given the various negotiations we see throughout the show.

For ''command staff'' B5 would have a bunch of people from ''ensign'' or whatever the lowest rank is and at least a couple ranks between that and commander. But I'd guess they all get the 5 x 5 closet quarters.

Garibaldi's rank is given as Cheif Warrant Officer plenty of times. And he ''part'' of the command staff. Still you'd think he'd have the ''executive quarters '' too. Dr Franklins um ''rank'' is chief medical officer, and he would really most likely get executive quarters.

[factotum]

Also you have the problem of Bester's PPG. Like when he gets back to his quarters he'd discover he did not ''shoot any rounds'' or the ''power pack is full''.

The whole point there is that the scene was an illusion. Bester *did* fire his PPG, it's just there weren't any people there for it to hit.

[Rodin]

The whole point there is that the scene was an illusion. Bester *did* fire his PPG, it's just there weren't any people there for it to hit.

I don't think he does. The people were there - they had to be there, holding hands, for them to overpower Bester and generate the illusion. Remember, the people are still standing there when Sheridan comes out afterwards. Sheridan describes the scene as Bester walking in, standing there for a bit, then walking out. If Bester HAD fired his PPG, he would have done so directly into the crowd of people.

I think it is a plot hole, albeit a pretty minor one. I've certainly never noticed it.

[factotum]

Oh, yes, I forgot that bit. Well, if the illusion was powerful enough to make Bester think he fired his PPG when he didn't, I'm sure they could have planted a suggestion for him to not bother checking it later.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, it's possible they also implanted like a dozen suggestions and illusions in his mind. One for him to ''not think anything weird happened''. One for him to think poor, innocent non-violent Taila was and is a crazy cold blooded murderer AND that is normal. One not to question where Tail even got a gun. One not to wonder how she became an expert assassin and marksman. One to..um...put a false file in his brain where he saw Taila has Advance Murder Death Kill Urban Assault and Marksman's Training. And..um..one for him to remember the file was one of them ''this file will self destruct in five seconds files'' so he can't see it again. Lots and lots to add.....

Of course like most things, only if they could add like 30 seconds more the episode....Where Bester could give her a PPG for her own protection, she'd say ''I have not fired one sense my firearms training on Mars Aries Arena'', and he'd say "just let the telepathic training take over, become one with the weapon, and you will do fine."

Then later when she shares the drink with Ivonana she can even say something like ''There is Psi Core training..telepathic controls..inside my brain. Part of the reason the projection was so real is that is me, some deep dark part of me the Psi Core put there. I could never hurt a fly, and never have...but I know I have it inside me....and worse I know what it would look like if it came out."

[tomandtish]

For ''command staff'' B5 would have a bunch of people from ''ensign'' or whatever the lowest rank is and at least a couple ranks between that and commander. But I'd guess they all get the 5 x 5 closet quarters.

Garibaldi's rank is given as Cheif Warrant Officer plenty of times. And he ''part'' of the command staff. Still you'd think he'd have the ''executive quarters '' too. Dr Franklins um ''rank'' is chief medical officer, and he would really most likely get executive quarters.

Given that it's not the norm by today's standards for most junior officers to even have their own quarters in a naval posting, why would you assume he'd have quarters equal in size to theirs? It's honestly amazing that they show most non-married crew having their own quarters.

And there's "Command Staff", and then Command staff. Garibaldi is part of the main cast, but (IIRC) we've never actually seen him giving orders to officers (not counting strongly worded advice) or left in charge of the station. And since he's an NCO they'd have to kill all the other officers first, setting up a potential William Sitgreaves Cox situation.

Finally, remember that the space Earth is complaining about? 7 feet. I am assuming they mean 7 square feet, so we're talking making my walk in closet one foot wider type space (actually, I think that would be 8 feet but I'm not going to bother measuring).

So we aren't talking extra rooms, etc. here. We're talking something that might not even be noticeable if you aren't actively looking for it. When we bought our house, there were two models called the Austin 1 (one we got) and the Austin 2 (120 square feet bigger). Only difference being adding a foot to each of the rooms. We ended up going with the 1 because you couldn't really feel the difference.

But Earth is looking to save some money or earn a few credits on the back end, and there's either already a rule in place or they just made one.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• The Coming of Shadows
• GROPOS
• All Alone in the Night

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[Rodin]

I almost skipped The Coming of Shadows on this re-watch. It's a great episode and very important to the plot, but it is such a painful one to watch. Where Londo commits fully to the path of darkness, the kind emperor dies seeing his work toward peace with the Narns un-done, G'kar falls into the depths of despair...ooof. This is the point where things really start to fall apart.

GROPOS on the other hand is just kinda meh. I like the stuff with Dr. Franklin and his father, but the rest of the episode feels kinda pointless. Filler at it's most filler-y.

All Alone in the Night is the good kind of filler - an A plot that doesn't have much relevance to anything else but does provide an excuse for some nice prophetic dreams, a B plot setting up Minbari politics that will become important later, and a C plot (General Hague's visit) to provide foreshadowing on Earth politics that will become important later.

It really highlights what could have been with seasons 4 and 5. Season 4 just feels really rushed throughout, because JMS was trying to squeeze two seasons worth of content into one season. Meanwhile, season 5 winds up feeling inconsequential with all the major plots dealt with. An ability to space things out and trickle out the plot developments would have improved the pacing immensely, particularly for the Shadow War.

[Darth Ultron]

The Coming of Shadows

The dying Centauri emperor visits B5, and Londo starts a war between the Centauri and the Narn.


Note-The Centauri Emperor has an escort of Six warships. The poor Earth president got like a couple starfuries.

Draft'em-The Earth Alliance had a Planetary Draft?

Foreshadowing Dreams- Kinda wonder where they come from(Kosh? Vorlon dream dna encoding?)...but they are so cool.

Note-Sinclair says ''the Frontier'' not ''the Rim''.

Vir- He gets a great gem in this episode when he does not refill Lord Refa's glass.

Things that don't Make Sense:

Knock, Knock- So the Centauri Emperor wants to see and meet a Vorlon? Um, so why does not go and meet Kosh. Lots and lots of people have seen and met and even talked to Kosh. Even them stupid parents who wanted to kill their boy got a meeting with Kosh. But the Centauri Emperor ''can't'' see Kosh for what reason exactly? See, this right here is the problem with that bit in the bad kill the little boy episode.

Centauri Telepaths- Er, so the female telepaths can communicate like over a dozen light years or more? Through hyperspace? So they are what, like ''P-25''S? And they read/monitor the Emperor's mind, right? Wonder if they ''heard'' his last words?

Ranger Rick- Er, so he wants to talk to Garibaldi. So he follows Garibaldi around and gets caught...then, pointlessly is all quiet. Like he could not just say ''I have a message'' or something? As he was sent by Sinclair, and Sinclair knows Garibaldi would he not know the best way to say ''hello''?

The Message- Er, um, so why does not the Centauri Emperor ask to see G'Kar? He is able to say the message to Dr. Franklin and lives like at least for several hours (maybe a day?).

The Other Race on the Prowl- ''We have been hearing about another race on the prowl.." Um, we have? They have? Sure, we viewers know about the shadows, but the main cast is clueless. And sure G'Kar thinks it might be an ''old'' race....but the main cast is clueless.



Final-A, This amazing episode is simultaneously excellent and tragic. It's like watching a car accident in slow motion: you can see what's coming, but there's no way to stop the wreck. This episode is a turning point that sets the course for major events throughout the rest of the series.

[tomandtish]

The Coming of Shadows

Knock, Knock- So the Centauri Emperor wants to see and meet a Vorlon? Um, so why does not go and meet Kosh. Lots and lots of people have seen and met and even talked to Kosh. Even them stupid parents who wanted to kill their boy got a meeting with Kosh. But the Centauri Emperor ''can't'' see Kosh for what reason exactly? See, this right here is the problem with that bit in the bad kill the little boy episode.

Because he's "supposed" to be the best of them all. He was already going to ruffle feathers with the Narn apology. His already going to B5 is unprecedented. He's not going to make too many waves at once. I'm sure that if this had gone over well, in another year or so he could have gone to see a Vorlon. But at present he realizes he squandering all the political capital he can afford to at this time.

They may also be worried that Vorlons don't like Centauri, given that every ship the Centauri have sent to to the Vorlon has never returned. So they may be leery of asking.

Centauri Telepaths- Er, so the female telepaths can communicate like over a dozen light years or more? Through hyperspace? So they are what, like ''P-25''S? And they read/monitor the Emperor's mind, right? Wonder if they ''heard'' his last words?

Given the look the two telepaths shared after Londo said that the Emperor's last words were to "Continue. Take my people back to the stars", it's a safe bet the two with him know that wasn't what was said.

Agreed that this ability makes them extremely powerful, although if it's limited to just this group it isn't game breaking (so to speak). Remember, it's the two with him who read his mind, and then communicate with the other two.

Ranger Rick- Er, so he wants to talk to Garibaldi. So he follows Garibaldi around and gets caught...then, pointlessly is all quiet. Like he could not just say ''I have a message'' or something? As he was sent by Sinclair, and Sinclair knows Garibaldi would he not know the best way to say ''hello''?

He does, but he has conflicting problems. He needs to catch Garibaldi alone to tell him he's from Sinclair, since he doesn't want to say anything that gets into "regular channels" (Sinclair says this himself). Remember, when he is first caught Garibaldi had two men standing by (there in seconds). So he has to catch Garibaldi alone. Unfortunately, Garibaldi realizes he's being followed because of heightened security (it's a bad time to be trying to be discrete).

The Message- Er, um, so why does not the Centauri Emperor ask to see G'Kar? He is able to say the message to Dr. Franklin and lives like at least for several hours (maybe a day?).

Because he's dying? At the time he asks it's a safe bet he's in ICU. So yeah, they could show him asking, Franklin saying No, and then relaying the message, but why waste the time?

This is an hour show (42-43 minutes not counting commercials). They can only show so much.

[QUOTE=Darth Ultron;22161799]The Other Race on the Prowl- ''We have been hearing about another race on the prowl.." Um, we have? They have? Sure, we viewers know about the shadows, but the main cast is clueless. And sure G'Kar thinks it might be an ''old'' race....but the main cast is clueless. {/quote]

Yeah, they have. Even main cast. G'Kar had brought up rumors, the shadow warrior being called back to Z'ha'dum, etc. But it's all been innuendo, coincidence, and rumor (and to an extent still is). What you have with Sinclair is a source that someone in main cast (Garibaldi) TRUSTS.

[Rodin]

The hints of another race on the prowl also don't have to be things we've specifically seen in the show. The Shadows have been discreetly stepping up their activity across the galaxy - from how many Shadow bases we eventually see, it's a fair bet that there are a number of other Mordens making deal with other races, and other races will surely have been spotting an uptick in unexplained phenomena and ships that were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got fragged by the Shadows.

Even without all of that, there's just Londo's interactions with Morden. He's had two VERY public instances of mysterious forces which are provably not Centauri completing tasks for him - first getting the Eye back from the Raiders and then blowing up the Narn military outpost. That news is going to have gotten around.

[factotum]

The Coming of Shadows: Whoops, this is where things really hit the fan. For a moment we believe G'Kar and Londo can be reconciled, but that's stuffed up when the Narn colony is destroyed and the Narn-Centauri war begins. If only the old Emperor had been able to hold on to life for another year or two things might have gone very differently--or they might have gone exactly the same, with the Emperor being assassinated by some clique unhappy with his attempts to atone for the Centauri occupation of Narn, who can say? Oh, and a mysterious organisation known as the "Rangers" show up for the first time...wonder what's going to happen with those guys?

GROPOS: Never really felt this one goes anywhere. It deals with Dr Franklin's relationship with his father, but this has never been brought up before and I don't think it's ever mentioned in future, so it feels irrelevant. If said General Franklin had been involved in the war to form the Interstellar Alliance then that would have been interesting, but that never happens. About the only significant point is that the station's defence grid has been upgraded to the point it can take on a warship, something that will prove useful more than once!

All Alone in the Night: Sheridan gets captured by your traditional Greys and the Agamemnon has to rescue him. Considering these unknown aliens have been around for a long time, judging by what Delenn says, it seems odd their ship is so easily destroyed by the Agamemnon--considering their habit of going around kidnapping members of other species, you'd think they'd have learned to defend themselves a bit better.
Oh, and General Hague shows up, only to famously disappear from the plot later because his supposedly scheduled appearance on DS9 clashed with B5...wonder if that actor regrets that decision? I bet he's more commonly remembered as General Hague than as that one rebel Starfleet Admiral. Anyway, this episode plants the seeds for B5's rebellion against President Clark's rule which will obviously be so significant in times to come.

[Darth Ultron]

But at present he realizes he squandering all the political capital he can afford to at this time.

I kind of think the Centauri Emperor does not care about such things as ''political capital'' anymore. And making a request to see an ambassador is not so wild and crazy. For that matter, why not ''ask'' to address the B5 committee?

Given the look the two telepaths shared after Londo said that the Emperor's last words were to "Continue. Take my people back to the stars", it's a safe bet the two with him know that wasn't what was said.

Agreed that this ability makes them extremely powerful, although if it's limited to just this group it isn't game breaking (so to speak). Remember, it's the two with him who read his mind, and then communicate with the other two.

I guess there would be more story if the show was The Rise and Fall of the Centauri Empire.

Still, you'd think someone could have taken like ten seconds to say ''wow, telepathic contact over lots of light years...I did not know that was possible."

Because he's dying? At the time he asks it's a safe bet he's in ICU. So yeah, they could show him asking, Franklin saying No, and then relaying the message, but why waste the time?

When The Centauri Emperor on his death bed makes a request...you honor it. You don't be all Idiot Doctor and be like ''Oh, um, in your condition you...um..can't just lay there and speak...it could, um, kill you faster then your all ready dying...and it's against Medlab rule, um, 47B !"

Yeah, they have. Even main cast. G'Kar had brought up rumors, the shadow warrior being called back to Z'ha'dum, etc. But it's all been innuendo, coincidence, and rumor (and to an extent still is). What you have with Sinclair is a source that someone in main cast (Garibaldi) TRUSTS.

The shadow warrior was an example of a ''new'' race on the prowl? Ok....

And sure, some characters...mostly G'Kar have thought a ''new '' (or old) race with a advance and powerful military have been ''around'', but we don't see the Earthforce people saying or thinking that. Even in this episode they are like ''um, a mystery'' attacked the Narn place...and not ''It must have been a ''new '' (or old) race with a advance and powerful military.