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2017-08-16, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Being on the same standard as the rest of the world? Quite a lot, I should think.
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2017-08-16, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
The Cauchat issue had nothing to do with metric vs. imperial, but arose because of shoddy conversion to the standard US cartridge. A shoddy conversion to any cartridge more powerful (less-powerful cartridges would create a different set of issues) than the French 8mm would cause similar problems.
As for the Mars Climate Orbiter, blaming the loss purely on an imperial/metric mismatch is somewhat oversimplified. While that was the nature of the error, several more errors had to be made (and were) for it to be an issue, while you could swap any of a dozen other problems in for the original mismatch and gotten the same result. Had any of the several personnel who noticed the probe was off course been listened to, the probe would not have been lost.
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2017-08-16, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I was given to understand that in addition to the cartridge change, the bicycle factory where the chauchats were manufactured screwed up the metric-imperial measurements on several components, leading to them not fitting as they should have, contributing to being unable to fire more than about 3 rounds without jamming.
And yeah, it's a simplification, and other mistakes had to be made in both cases. But you know what would make it a lot harder to screw up like that when dealing with conversions between imperial and metric parts, designs, measurements, or whatever else? If we used the same units on both sides.
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2017-08-16, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
You understand wrongly. There were incorrect sizings, but this was not due to any metric-imperial conversion. They were due to the measurements being conducted improperly. A conversion to 8mm Mauser would have had the same bad result due the extremely shoddy workmanship that the Gladiator factory was putting out.
And yeah, it's a simplification, and other mistakes had to be made in both cases. But you know what would make it a lot harder to screw up like that when dealing with conversions between imperial and metric parts, designs, measurements, or whatever else? If we used the same units on both sides.
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2017-08-16, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Why is that still not made better by not having a possible other measuring system for people to mistakenly use?
To put it another way, almost everything manufactured in the US, Mexico, or Canada has components which are manufactured in one or both of the others. Why is it to our benefit to be the odd man out, and then spend the first section of every engineering, science, or medical course of study be all about unit conversions? Why risk something going wrong because someone forgot to bust out the calculator: I saw a veterinary tech kill a dog, later determined to be by failing to do a dose conversion on their buprenorphine, do you feel comfortable knowing that human nurses are doing the same calculations when administering your medications?
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2017-08-16, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Even within the metric system, you will have different units used at different times in the same field, and since there aren't always hard rules on which units are appropriate, you can't make assumptions about those units. True, you're marginally less likely to make a mathematical error converting feet to inches than you are converting meters to cm. However, in the examples that have been brought up, the problem hasn't been that people were messing up the math while doing conversions--it has been that people were assuming they were using one unit when they were actually using another, and thus forgot they had to convert to begin with. True, if the imperial system didn't exist, it abstractly reduces the number of possible conversions out there (I'll leave you to do the handshake problem on that one.) However, you'll still sometimes have to convert from cm to mm, or microns to angstroms. In fact, if I were inclined to play Devil's Advocate on this, I would argue that the false sense of security given by knowing that you'll never seen an imperial unit again might make people less diligent about checking that SI prefix.
Why is it to our benefit to be the odd man out, and then spend the first section of every engineering, science, or medical course of study be all about unit conversions?
Why risk something going wrong because someone forgot to bust out the calculator: I saw a veterinary tech kill a dog, later determined to be by failing to do a dose conversion on their buprenorphine, do you feel comfortable knowing that human nurses are doing the same calculations when administering your medications?
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2017-08-16, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
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2017-08-16, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Fun fact! The United States does not use the Imperial system. We use American Customary Units. Which are heavily based on imperial, but are juuuuuuuuuuuuust slightly off.
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2017-08-16, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2017-08-16, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
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2017-08-16, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I am aware of that, but the term is awkward enough that using the inaccurate but close enough one is easier.
Precisely. The financial cost of converting to SI would be immense on the national level, potentially fatal in many individual business cases, and that doesn't even consider all of the other complications where suddenly having to think in one set of terms when you've spend your entire life thinking in another would cause a problem. Most Americans have a decent understanding of the metric system, but the vast majority think in Imperial. If we see "55" on a speed limit sign, the first thought (at least at home) will always be in miles. To make matters worse, the advantages of the metric system are far more illusory in reality than they are in theory. In day to day life, and in most professional settings, you just pick a unit and work in it rather than converting. That makes the primary advantage of the metric system (that of easily converting one unit to another) largely pointless.
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As someone with a bit of familiarity with pharmacology, I would say that I am not comfortable with anyone who would make that mistake doing anything at all. True, every added step is extra cognitive load, and on the aggregate, more points of failure will likely mean slightly more failures. However, if someone is my pharmacist or my anesthesiologist, I want someone who has his crap together well enough not to make that mistake, because "check if the units I'm measuring are the same units as the instructions I'm reading" is one of the easiest of the many things these guys have to check for to make sure nothing horrible happens to you. Your argument is that metric conversion is like asking someone to write his name twice on the test: It's unnecessary, and it will slightly increase the rate of failure. My argument is that I don't care--if you're the kind of person who will screw up writing your name twice, then I absolutely don't trust you to do the kind of mental work required for the rest of the exam.[/QUOTE]
Not only that, but it should not take long to get an instinctive feel for how much of something you should be using. If you're using 2 ounces of something instead of 2 grams, you should immediately realize that that is way too much, and double-check what you are supposed to be doing. There is enough of a difference between metric units and their non-metric equivalents that the error should always be obvious unless you are the rawest of amateurs - in which case you shouldn't be working unsupervised in the first place.
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2017-08-16, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
It's worth noting that metric is not necessarily more sensible for all applications. For example human weight is much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then it is in metric. The range of temperatures outside are much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then they are in metric. The imperial system excels as a common use system, it's very good for everyday applications or fairly simplistic applications. I'm a Carpenter, and trying to talk in centimeters would take way more time and be way less effective and efficient on the job site then talking in feet inches. Also inches are pretty easy to gauge by glancing at things they tend to have fairly clear reference points and I've not seen that to be the case for centimeters or meters as much. So I wouldn't have to say the whole thing is gone it just has different advantages
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2017-08-16, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
When I started as an apprentice plumber (February 3rd, 2000 FWIW), I had previously worked seven years at a Honda and Kawasaki motorcycle shop, so I was used to metric sizes.
I won't soon forget the tongue lashing I received when the Journeyman asked what size socket, and I said "looks to be about 14mm".
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2017-08-16, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
It is not a strawman because that is what we do: Kids grow up learning pounds and inches, and then when they go into a technical field they have to learn things in terms of killograms and centimeters. And it's kind of unnecessary.
You may prefer that medical fields only be populated by the sort of person who never makes a mistake, but unfortunately that sort of person doesn't exist. And nurses and doctors are already often overworked, and coming off a 20 hour shift exhaustion can mess with the most competent of people.
And if administering an injectable medication, especially one you are not using on a daily basis, a factor of 2.2 from failing to convert a patient's weight (scales often being in pounds, medication basically always in terms of mgs per kg), can be both significant and not instinctively wrong while you are holding the syringe. I've been shouted at for going "too slow" when I double check myself by some doctors in a non-emergency setting.
It's an extra point of failure, it's unnecessary, and I'm willing to say I absolutely believe it contributes to at least some of the hundreds of thousands of US malpractice deaths each year.
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2017-08-16, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
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I just thought this was somewhat relevant about the talk of Metric vs Imperial/American system.
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2017-08-16, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
When you say the Imperial system is "much more intuitive", surely you just mean it is more intuitive to you, because that is what you know?
Because for me (and I suspect most people who grew up with metrics) the metric system is more intuitive for all the uses you describe. Someone tells me that Mike Tyson's fighting weight was 220 pounds and it means very little, until I convert it to about 104kg - having done that I have a fair idea about his weight.
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2017-08-16, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I'd say a cup and a foot are fairly intuitive.
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2017-08-16, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-08-16, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
This might be true, but I don't know if that relates to the... "intrinsic intuitiveness"? of the units in question. I imagine that the units in a certain range (not so small that they're difficult to estimate, not so large that that you're usually dealing with fractional units) might be more naturally intuitive than something like millimeters or leagues, but I can't really see why pounds would be more intuitive than kilograms unless you were accustomed to one or the other. This is actually pretty consistent with your assertion--sports often involve tight-knit communities that value tradition, so it's plausible that they would hold on to traditional units long after. In horse racing, for example, they continue to measure in hands, and I wouldn't be surprised if they've been doing so since before both SI and imperial units in Great Britain. I can see why they might do it. If they keep historical records or statistics, keeping the same units makes it easier to compare results. If understanding the sport benefits from an intuitive sense of units, then it's possible that when the older generation teaches the next one, it's considered easier for the students to learn a new unit than for the teacher to relearn how to communicate his knowledge in national standard units. Plus, I think a lot of communities like to distinguish themselves with trappings or terminology that sets them from everyone else.
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2017-08-16, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
It would be great if the US had already converted to metric. Most people agree on that. But the challenge of actually getting through the conversion is non-trivial.
In general, I'm a big fan of metric, and use it preferentially despite growing up mostly in the US. But for temperature specifically, the fact is that Centigrade uses only 2-4 leading digits for the range of temperatures most people experience, while Fahrenheit uses all ten (and a few over). So °C requires you to care about the second digit to have the same information °F gives you in the first.
(To see why this is important, consider the limiting case of simply using Kelvins instead of °C. Same unit size, more rigorously defined base, even harder to mess up conversions — all the great advantages people always talk about for the metric system! — but you have to look at all three digits to see what approximate range you're in… 301 K is a reasonable temperature, and so is 280 K, but 208 K is a whole different story, and 380 K is no fun for anyone.)
The others don't have such a specific advantage, so I don't know that there's any real objective intuitive advantage there.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
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2017-08-17, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-08-17, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Eh, I think that only really factors in as an advantage as that's what you're used to working with. For me, with weather temperature etc, the ranges go roughly as follows:
>50: Exceptionally hot
40 to 50: Really hot
30 to 40: Hot (includes normal body temperature at around 38)
20 to 30: Pleasantly warm
20: Normal room temperature
10 to 20: Comfortably cool
0 to 10: Chilly
0: Freezing point of water
-10 to 0: Somewhat below freezing
-20 to -10: Well below freezing
etc
So I get handy single digit information out of these, whereas the equivalents in Fahrenheit don't really mean as much to me.
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2017-08-17, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Eh the difference between 0 and 10 and 10 and 20 are significant enough that the second digit matters a fair bit there I'd say. 10 degrees I can walk with a small windbreaker or no jacket, while wearing short sleeves. I wouldn't do the same at even 5 deg and definitely not at 0. Similarly that windbreaker I wear at 10 I definitely wouldn't be wearing at 20.
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2017-08-17, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Celsius?
Okay..., 20 degrees Celsius is about 68 degrees Fahrenheit, so yes that would be pleasantly warm in San Francisco, 30 degrees Celsius, however, is about 86 degrees Fahrenheit!
When it gets that hot I feel cheated to be paying Bay area housing prices.
Too dang hot!
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2017-08-17, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
You/they already started doing it once. I visited some aquaintances in the US once and one of them had an old car with a Mph *and* Kmh speedometer.
It's just that followthrough wasn't exactly stellar. I think it was around the time of President Carter and his impopularity was somehow tied up in it? I don't remember the specifics.
I will have to say though, for every single measure someone says "well Imperial is more intuitive it's much faster in Imperial" or something like that I could say exactly the same thing about metric. It's a matter of what you are used to. I used to play Warhammer and it measured everything in Imperial, however, it didn't take that long for me to be able to gauge distances within the game relative to the game's Imperial scale and measures.
Imperial and carpentry, again can't really see the appeal. I feel a mm is more "accurate" (smaller unit) than fractions of an inch and since good carpenters should have 10 fingers wouldn't counting to 10 be easier? Why mess about with fractions of 8? I think they finalyl gave up on that in stockmarkets eventually, and I don't think the US has ever had 12 pennies to the cent and 8 cent to the dollar or something like the British system used to be (which is why stocks would be in fractions 8s and 16s)
The temperautre one e.g. baffles me greatly because the Celsius scale has rather important implications for human interaction with nature vis a vis water and it's properties. 0 C means there's gonna ice on the roads e.g. so how is tying this switch to going from positive to negative not critical information? That's my main gripe with Fahrenheit. It's so illogical to me I have difficulty grasping how anyone can work this system when positive and negative numbers mean the same (ie it's cold).
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2017-08-17, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
Well the thing is I'm not saying that metric is more intuitive or Imperials more intuitive in a general sense. I am saying that in case of specific uses Imperial will be more intuitive than metric and vis versa. Again I already provided the examples I'm familiar with. For human weight it is easier to judge the difference between different humans when you're talking in poundage than kilograms, this is because there's a larger range of numbers so it's easier to gauge the difference a 50 lb difference is pretty easy to think about where has a 20-kilogram difference even though it's the same is is is harder to process when you're dealing with human weights. I'll note that my example was strong man where the British people were using pounds and stone for weight, rather than kilos, and his most the tradition of that sport comes from Eastern Europe at least at that time when I was watching it. There's no traditional affiliation with pounds or stones, so the reason people would use it is because it's more inherently intuitive to them.
What the difference is that an eighth of an inch is a very easy thing to see with your eyes. Like for many jobs your margin of error will be an eighth of an inch to maybe a quarter of an inch, you can see that with your eyes you can eyeball that fairly easily. So it's harder if say your margin of error is 3 cm, which if you're working in fabrication or in engineering you don't have to worry as much about that, because you don't have to eyeball things you have calipers, and exactness of your measurements is far more important whereas in the field it's more important to be able to intuitively gauge what something is by glancing at it immediately. And a lot of boards are less than 3 foot long, so a meter isn't very intuitive length for most things you're building whereas a foot is pretty freaking accurate to most things it's really uncommon that I would that I we need to cut an 8-inch board or a 6-inch board where I wouldn't be able to just get something close and have it be good enough, however there are a lot of times when I have to cut a 2-foot board or a 1 foot 6 inch board and that's where it's good to have the imperial system because those measurements are more intuitive.
It's also worth noting that people altar in the imperial system when it doesn't work as well for something. Surveyors and Engineers for example, use tenths of a foot rather than inches so instead of breaking a foot down into 12 inches they break the foot down into 10 tenths. So you can already see that there are changes when something is easier one way.
Well most people interact with air temperature a lot more than water temperature, usually the only time water temperature becomes really important is when you're figuring out if something is freezing. And while it's slightly more intuitive in metric, that's not particularly hard to remember one number 32. And it's as people stated much easier to convey ranges of temperatures in terms of how you're going interact with them.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2017-08-17, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
The standard operation in carpentry is halving something, often repeatedly. This is why pretty much all tapes, squares and rulers are gradiated in 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc, because halving these numbers is very easy, even for weird things like 17/32. Same with cooking, which is why it's powers of two all the way from tablespoon to quart.
Obviously you can set up a metric-based measurement device that's gradiated in reciprocal powers of two of a kilogram or cubic centimeter or whatever. However so far as I can tell for a lot of day to day measurements, there's absolutely no utility gain in having a system based around powers of ten. I've never changed the scale of a recipe by a power of ten, and I used to cook for wedding banquets.
People tend to create systems of measurement that are practical for whatever they're being used for. SI units are very handy if you're sciencing, not necessarily the most convenient choice when you're cutting a mortise.
(Besides which, nobody will ever come up with as delightfully baffling yet tterly practical a measurement as shotgun gauges)Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
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2017-08-17, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
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2017-08-17, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why are physicians generally huge jerks?
I reckon you don't deal with SI a lot? I have to say, having read a lot of science literature since I was a little kid, and given my little understanding of non-SI measures; I find the concept of "converting cm to mm" very, very odd. Like, I feel I'm talking with an alien. Yes, you can technically call it a "conversion", mathematically speaking, but, you don't usually say "Let's convert this decades into years..." for the same reason you don't "transform" hundreds into units. I don't know, specifically speaking the sole advantage SI has over other systems is precisely internal consistency. Converting joules into newtons is an actual mental process for me, but converting grams into kilograms is not at all. The same goes for microns and armstrongs, if you know the difference between a billion and a decimal unit; then the mental process is just as simple.
I agree it can't happen overnight, and it's not the most pressing matter at hand. But it is still silly to stick with a system just cause "many people are already used to it". For that matter, many scientists are used to SI more than the other, and the importance of handling units for them far exceed the problems common folks will come across. I don't know how it is when US folks go to the market and to translate ounces to something else, or a 10 foot pole that only comes in inches; but we SI-people don't care in the least because m-dm-cm-mm and kg-g-mg is the same freaking thing. We don't care at all. And that's why I find funny when SI detractors stick to their horses as if they were defending Fort Knox
Funny, only time in my life I had to dealt with inches also was in construction. Not for actual work, but to buy tools and other thingies. It always amused me that. Anyway, no, "intuitive" is only for you. I assure you, we SI people don't find our own system confusing in the least. There's a reason scientist use it too.
It's funny because last time I heard an American proposing the change to SI; it was Neil deGrasse Tyson
Kelvin has the same advantages of Celcius because they share the same scaling. It's on the numbers where they differ, and a simple sum can fix that. It's the most simple conversion there is.
Anyway... I don't know how you take temperature of people; but I only care about the last 2 numbers (last unit and a decimal). See, human body is normally at 36-37º. That's healthy temp. if it goes lower than 6, you should put on a coat or something. Also, hypothermia: check your toes. If it's 7.n it requires further checking. If it's 8.n or higher, go to the doctor ASAP. If it is 0.x better call the doctor and an ambulance. Any variation on the initial number doesn't mean crap, because <35 you are already a corpse; >43 you are a freaking mutant. Only the last two numbers are relevant. I don't see the advantage in either.(sic)
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2017-08-17, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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